a question for all those professionally involved in the bike industry

[maxdog]

recently i started a thread concerning my interest in a waterford for a new build project. i was thinking along the lines of a used frame as i do for some of my bikes. the two main reasons being firstly, although materials have improved, my main focus is the craftsmanship, which in many cases, certainly not all, is better in the earlier productions. secondly you can get a real nice bike at a fraction of its original cost. there is of course a third reason as in the rs i purchased recently from brendan quirk. i'm 51 and the idea of waiting 8 1/2 years was kind of a bummer. well this rs build with the cost of the frame and components is going to set me back a few bucks, so the second factor was especially of concern in my thoughts on another purchase. not that i'm not better off than most of the people in our society, but there is only so much allocation of resources to my obsession i can rationalize to my lovely wife, who tolerates, but does not quite share my passion. well as in most of my posts, old potatoe generously offered up his two cents. i had no idea he was in the business and actually dealt in waterfords. it kind of got me thinking. in a commercial based economy as ours, there is nothing more political you do, than how you allocate your hard earned (or easily, as the case may be) money. it's not by some divine force that the small businessman has been marginalized by the cooperate behemoths. i like most everyone has at times, by passed the local hardware store to save a few bucks at home depot. i try to be conscious of supporting my local providers, but often times it's just unrealistic. i live in rural ny and my closet decent lbs is 50 miles away in albany. well any way i was kind of wondering how dave kirk, or any of the other builders here felt about people buying their stuff second hand, instead of patronizing them directly. on the one hand, a secondary market makes your products more valuable, but it does not directly fill your pocket. i personally feel it would be a sad world if trek, specialized, giant, et al. were the only bike manufacturers left. i do plan on having both kirk, and zanconato, who are on my short wish list, build me a custom frame within the next few years, but i would still like a response from dave or anyone else here involved in the industry concerning this issue. in fact i'd like to hear from the perspective of those like me who are just consumers/enthusiasts. thanks.

[akelman]

I bought a used Vanilla relatively recently. And before making the purchase I decided to call Sacha White to ask him if the Vanilla Workshop supports used sales. I'm not sure what I would have done if he had said, "No, thanks for asking, but we'd really rather that nobody buy used Vanillas/Vagens." Fortunately, that wasn't an issue. Instead, he was very cool, took a bunch time out of his workday to talk to me about the bike in question, and then offered his blessing for the transaction. Which is to say, at least some builders seem to be fine with the existence of a used market for their frames. But I suspect it's easier to feel that way if there's a mile-long wait list for their products.

[Ken Robb]

one reason some builders have long wait lists is that their used bikes command premium prices.

[bike22]

I buy everything bicycle related I possibly can used.

I salvage many bike parts as well- cast offs from friends, "broken" parts from racers etc.
I really like repairing broken parts rather than just replacing. not just from a money perspective but on a personal level as well. It gives me great satisfaction to repair something seemingly broken than to simply buy a new part and replace.

I guess the downside to the above is that my bikes are always in a state of disrepair and always need something or fixing.

I've never bought a new bike, frame, or groupset in my life- everything used.

Buying used allows me to own both a quantity and quality of things I would never have otherwise been able to own.

I ride my bike for a living, and don't make much. A new low-mid end road bike costs about what I make in a good month.

[Lifecycle]

I buy everything bicycle related I possibly can used.

I salvage many bike parts as well- cast offs from friends, "broken" parts from racers etc.
I really like repairing broken parts rather than just replacing. not just from a money perspective but on a personal level as well. It gives me great satisfaction to repair something seemingly broken than to simply buy a new part and replace.

I guess the downside to the above is that my bikes are always in a state of disrepair and always need something or fixing.

I've never bought a new bike, frame, or groupset in my life- everything used.

Buying used allows me to own both a quantity and quality of things I would never have otherwise been able to own.

I ride my bike for a living, and don't make much. A new low-mid end road bike costs about what I make in a good month.


KUDOS to you bike22- I can totally relate to that and surely respect that....

[avalonracing]

I'm not trying to be a prick but your question would be so much easier to read with capitalization and paragraphs.

The reason I'm writing this as a post instead of a PM is that I hope other will also remember that when making a long post.

Thanks.

[maxdog]

recently i started a thread concerning my interest in a waterford for a new build project.
i was thinking along the lines of a used frame as i do for some of my bikes. the two main reasons being;
...firstly, although materials have improved, my main focus is the craftsmanship, which in many cases, certainly not all, is better in the earlier productions.
...secondly you can get a real nice bike at a fraction of its original cost.

there is of course a third reason as in the rs i purchased recently from brendan quirk. i'm 51 and the idea of waiting 8 1/2 years was kind of a bummer. this rs build with the cost of the frame and components is going to set me back a few bucks, so the second factor, was especially of concern in my thoughts on another purchase. not that i'm not better off than most of the people in our society, but there is only so much allocation of resources to my obsession i can rationalize to my lovely wife, who tolerates, but does not quite share my passion.

well as in most of my posts, old potatoe generously offered up his two cents. i had no idea he was in the business and actually dealt in waterfords. it kind of got me thinking. in a commercial based economy as ours, there is nothing more political you do, than how you allocate your hard earned (or easily, as the case may be) money. it's not by some divine force that the small businessman has been marginalized by the cooperate behemoths. i like most everyone has at times, by passed the local hardware store to save a few bucks at home depot. i try to be conscious of supporting my local providers, but often times it's just unrealistic. i live in rural ny and my closet decent lbs is 50 miles away in albany.

i was kind of wondering how dave kirk, or any of the other builders here felt about people buying their stuff second hand, instead of patronizing them directly. on the one hand, a secondary market makes your products more valuable, but it does not directly fill your pocket. i personally feel it would be a sad world if trek, specialized, giant, et al. were the only bike manufacturers left.

i do plan on having both kirk, and zanconato, who are on my short wish list, build me a custom frame within the next few years, but i would still like a response from dave, or anyone else here involved in the industry, concerning this issue. in fact i'd like to hear from the perspective of those like me who are just consumers/enthusiasts. thanks.

[ergott]

I always look at it this way. What is the appeal of a "made to measure" frame made to someone else's measurements?

If I didn't want to pay the premium there is still a great list of builders selling frames for less. Their queue isn't as long either. Read this and pick a builder that speaks to your soul.

Smoked out (http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/)

[maxdog]

ergott, thanks for the response. i almost always buy frames that match or closely match the custom builds i have from serotta and moots. mighty nice bikes you have there. btw, how are things down there on the 'gi land'. kinda glad i eventually got out. good jobs, schools and entertainment, but the beauty and what you get for your money here in upstate is incomparable. i do miss the beaches a bit, but not the congestion,crime and general rat race. thanks again.

[rounder]

Hi i am just a consumer. I bought my first real bike (Schwinn Traveler) after buying a bike for young daughter and realizing how much better it was. Then, after watching the Tour de Trump come to Baltimore, got rid of the Scwinn and got a Bianchi Brava. Liked the bike but drooled over the red Serotta nhx hanging fron the ceiling. Bought it with shimano 600. Rode it and loved it, but wanted cooler wheels. Bought some hand made mavic 501's that sparkled. Later bought duraace 8-speed with mavic cosmics. I was totally happy until i discovered ebay. Found and bought a ciii. Also found and bought campy components that fit.

[maxdog]

thanks for the responses guys. i accidentally posted here in the classifieds and have since moved it to the general forum.

[ergott]

LI is alright for now. I wouldn't retire here, but that's a long way away.

I would be more inclined to buy a used bike from some builders over others. I see some builders that have a clear vision of what a bike should be. There is a good chance that if the measurements are similar to what I already know fits me, I would be just peachy. I have a pretty good idea of the range of numbers that work for me. However, I do see some other bikes built with compromises that I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole (both "stock" and custom).

In the end I'm patient and personally prefer to buy new and establish a personal relationship with them. That's something you can't get used.

[David Kirk]

Hey there,

First off I'm always flattered when someone has interest in my work either new or used. It means that my work has somehow spoken to you and that is what it's supposed to do.

While I would like to sell every cyclist a made-to-measure bike just for them I know that could never happen and it might make me a bit more busy than I'd like :) So I know that some people will buy used Kirks and that is cool. And at the same time I want everyone who throws their leg over one of my bikes to love every ride they take on it - but - my bikes are optimized to the original owner and they may not fit the second owner the way they should. Even if the top tube and seat angle are your preferred sizes the bike may not be the right stiffness or have the handling you want for your style of riding or the roads you will be using the bike on. Combine this with the fact that you may want to use a tire, crank or brake that the bike was never intended to work with and you can end up disappointed.

In most cases folks that buy a used Kirks love them but I have had a few that didn't. I had a heavy guy who bought a bike with a 1" top tube that was meant for someone who weighed a solid 50 pounds less think that I didn't know how to make a bike because it wasn't stiff enough for him. It 'fit' him but it didn't fit him in the bigger sense. It of course worked perfectly for the original owner but that was of little solace to owner #2. Unfortunately he told anyone that would listen that my bikes were crap but told no one that it wan't made for him. It ended up being a lose lose situation - he was angry and disappointed in the bike and I got dragged through the mud. Both of which could have been avoided if he bought a bike designed and built for him.

This is what bugs me far more than someone not buying the bike from me in the first place and putting money in my pocket. As corny as it sounds I just want every Kirk owner to love their bike but I lose control of that if they buy a bike I made for someone else entirely............. and since every bike I build is made for a given person and there are no stock Kirks made to fit anyone with the right inseam I feel the best way to get a Kirk that you will love is to have me design and make one just for you, the way you are built, the way you like to ride and to work with the components that will work best for you. Not doing this is a bit like wearing someone else's tailored suit - it might look and feel OK but it will never be the same an made to measure.

I hope that makes sense.

Dave

[dd74]

...but - my bikes are optimized to the original owner and they may not fit the second owner the way they should. Even if the top tube and seat angle are your preferred sizes the bike may not be the right stiffness or have the handling you want for your style of riding or the roads you will be using the bike on. Combine this with the fact that you may want to use a tire, crank or brake that the bike was never intended to work with and you can end up disappointed.
This is why I passed on the IF Crown Jewel recently on ebay. Not to mention the fact that the seller did not answer my question as to whom this bike was built - dimension wise.

Stock geo is one thing, but I wouldn't touch a custom made bicycle on the secondary market unless I knew some hard specifics about who first it was built for.

[Keith A]

thanks for the responses guys. i accidentally posted here in the classifieds and have since moved it to the general forum.Both threads are together now so that all the discussion can take place in one location.

[KonaSS]

Great comments all, especially nice to hear from a builder like Dave Kirk.

I have purchased both new and used bike made by custom builders. The used one I purchased did have "stock" geometry and has work out well. It is one bike I will probably never sell. But Dave Kirk brings up good points on how this scenario can go wrong.

All that being said, my unscientific notion is that 90+ percent of people who are selling used frames are doing so as they are purchasing a new one (or two). So while you are not directly filling the pocket of a builder, you are helping provide liquidity in a market that does fill their pocket.

My point - I can see many builders point to the fact that the best option would be to buy direct. But I think that anyone who would be totally opposed to a well fitted used purchase is being short sighted.

[oldpotatoe]

You wrote-"i try to be conscious of supporting my local providers, but often times it's just unrealistic. i live in rural ny and my closet decent lbs is 50 miles away in albany.

i was kind of wondering how dave kirk, or any of the other builders here felt about people buying their stuff second hand, instead of patronizing them directly. on the one hand, a secondary market makes your products more valuable, but it does not directly fill your pocket. i personally feel it would be a sad world if trek, specialized, giant, et al. were the only bike manufacturers left."

Well, well made things like some bicycle frames, are indeed a durable good, last for years, some last generations. Even if you buy a used one, it still 'help's the original maker, since the buyer hopefully will be thrilled, it has 'Waterford' on the downtube, still says good things about the maker as the present owner smiles as they ride it.

I think small builders survive by learning to control their costs, target a specific segment of the market, and not try to be something they aren't. Some try to expand, do something very uncharacteristic of them(Calfee and Bamboo comes to mind, one of the reasons I dropped him. That and his QC went to hell-related? I think so). Waterford and Moots do one thing, well made metal bikes. No carbon plugs, tail ends, no seatmasts, no gadgets. They just make beautiful, simple metal frames. Why I like 'em and sell 'em.

There are examples everywere here of places just try to do their job, better, not bigger. Restaurants come to mind. Some get big, more locations, some smaller ones just do their thing everyday.

I am of the 'do one thing, do it well' school of thought. I am happy to be in my 1400 sq feet, work on bikes, build wheels.

[Keith A]

Dave -- Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It is always interesting to hear from those that build the bikes we love and ride. BTW, have you ever thought about doing a batch of "stock" bikes like Sasha does with his Speedvagen line?

[97CSI]

Have purchased two new bikes in the past 20 years. A Serotta CDA and a Dean Ti. Did not keep them any longer than any other bike I've purchased (probably 20-25 in that period of time), so why bother. Having a new touring bicycle built. Guess I'll see how long it lasts. Though have kept my '87 Paramount for 15 years and doubt will ever sell it. At least I envision still riding it in 12 more years when I turn 75.

[dekindy]

Both threads are together now so that all the discussion can take place in one location.

In capitalism the market determines what is valuable; not a policy committee, think tank, gurus, or guys talking on a bike forum. That is what is great about capitalism; the invisible hand of competition which is the combined result of all individual decisions. What is also great about capitalism is that we get rid of what does not work. If it becomes relevant again it can come back. Manufacturers cannot create or control a secondary market. The market controls it. You can argue this too, but the market wins all arguements.

[soulspinner]

Hey there,

First off I'm always flattered when someone has interest in my work either new or used. It means that my work has somehow spoken to you and that is what it's supposed to do.

While I would like to sell every cyclist a made-to-measure bike just for them I know that could never happen and it might make me a bit more busy than I'd like :) So I know that some people will buy used Kirks and that is cool. And at the same time I want everyone who throws their leg over one of my bikes to love every ride they take on it - but - my bikes are optimized to the original owner and they may not fit the second owner the way they should. Even if the top tube and seat angle are your preferred sizes the bike may not be the right stiffness or have the handling you want for your style of riding or the roads you will be using the bike on. Combine this with the fact that you may want to use a tire, crank or brake that the bike was never intended to work with and you can end up disappointed.

In most cases folks that buy a used Kirks love them but I have had a few that didn't. I had a heavy guy who bought a bike with a 1" top tube that was meant for someone who weighed a solid 50 pounds less think that I didn't know how to make a bike because it wasn't stiff enough for him. It 'fit' him but it didn't fit him in the bigger sense. It of course worked perfectly for the original owner but that was of little solace to owner #2. Unfortunately he told anyone that would listen that my bikes were crap but told no one that it wan't made for him. It ended up being a lose lose situation - he was angry and disappointed in the bike and I got dragged through the mud. Both of which could have been avoided if he bought a bike designed and built for him.

This is what bugs me far more than someone not buying the bike from me in the first place and putting money in my pocket. As corny as it sounds I just want every Kirk owner to love their bike but I lose control of that if they buy a bike I made for someone else entirely............. and since every bike I build is made for a given person and there are no stock Kirks made to fit anyone with the right inseam I feel the best way to get a Kirk that you will love is to have me design and make one just for you, the way you are built, the way you like to ride and to work with the components that will work best for you. Not doing this is a bit like wearing someone else's tailored suit - it might look and feel OK but it will never be the same an made to measure.

I hope that makes sense.

Dave

It makes perfect sense. Its why my Strong is better than my Colnago, Cannondale,etc.

[jr59]

Hey there,

First off I'm always flattered when someone has interest in my work either new or used. It means that my work has somehow spoken to you and that is what it's supposed to do.

While I would like to sell every cyclist a made-to-measure bike just for them I know that could never happen and it might make me a bit more busy than I'd like :) So I know that some people will buy used Kirks and that is cool. And at the same time I want everyone who throws their leg over one of my bikes to love every ride they take on it - but - my bikes are optimized to the original owner and they may not fit the second owner the way they should. Even if the top tube and seat angle are your preferred sizes the bike may not be the right stiffness or have the handling you want for your style of riding or the roads you will be using the bike on. Combine this with the fact that you may want to use a tire, crank or brake that the bike was never intended to work with and you can end up disappointed.

In most cases folks that buy a used Kirks love them but I have had a few that didn't. I had a heavy guy who bought a bike with a 1" top tube that was meant for someone who weighed a solid 50 pounds less think that I didn't know how to make a bike because it wasn't stiff enough for him. It 'fit' him but it didn't fit him in the bigger sense. It of course worked perfectly for the original owner but that was of little solace to owner #2. Unfortunately he told anyone that would listen that my bikes were crap but told no one that it wan't made for him. It ended up being a lose lose situation - he was angry and disappointed in the bike and I got dragged through the mud. Both of which could have been avoided if he bought a bike designed and built for him.

This is what bugs me far more than someone not buying the bike from me in the first place and putting money in my pocket. As corny as it sounds I just want every Kirk owner to love their bike but I lose control of that if they buy a bike I made for someone else entirely............. and since every bike I build is made for a given person and there are no stock Kirks made to fit anyone with the right inseam I feel the best way to get a Kirk that you will love is to have me design and make one just for you, the way you are built, the way you like to ride and to work with the components that will work best for you. Not doing this is a bit like wearing someone else's tailored suit - it might look and feel OK but it will never be the same an made to measure.

I hope that makes sense.

Dave

Very simply put, it's quotes like this that make me read this forum, and now the smoke out thread.

Well put Dave, I hope one day to be able to afford a custom made bike by you. You not only build great looking bikes, but you take the time to explain stuff to "hack ridders" like myself.
Thanks

[maxdog]

In capitalism the market determines what is valuable; not a policy committee, think tank, gurus, or guys talking on a bike forum. That is what is great about capitalism; the invisible hand of competition which is the combined result of all individual decisions. What is also great about capitalism is that we get rid of what does not work. If it becomes relevant again it can come back. Manufacturers cannot create or control a secondary market. The market controls it. You can argue this too, but the market wins all arguements.

dekindy, i was not suggesting a policy committee or moving to a communist state. in fact let me identify my credentials before further comment. i was an entrepreneur, who after graduating with a degree in economics, taught myself to program, got a job at a software firm, left and co-founded another software company and retired 17 years ago at the age of 34 a multi-millionaire (back when a million really still seemed like a lot of money). i then started to manage my money in the financial markets, growing my wealth substantially and bailing out in 2000. i really thought i had it going on.

well unfortunately one rarely learns a lot from their successes, but nothing like failure to sober you up. i got back in the markets in 2002 thinking things had bottomed and i knew how to trade. wrong on both counts. i proceeded to lose three quarters of my money. i have since reeducated myself on the true mechanisms of the financial markets and am on my why back up, from an economic standpoint. i would say, i'm the definition of a capitalist.

now having laid that ground work let me take issue with your comments, if you don't mind. i do not believe that capitalism is either an efficient or fair distributor of assets. i do believe it's the best system of economics around. but like any man made system, it needs to be regulated and managed.

either way your response was some what out of context with my original point. in a free market system we allocate our assets. how we allocate those assets, determines who and what succeeds and not. plain and simple.

[Lifelover]

I'm not trying to be a prick but your question would be so much easier to read with capitalization and paragraphs.

The reason I'm writing this as a post instead of a PM is that I hope other will also remember that when making a long post.

Thanks.

+1

I was recently reviewing resume for the hiring of a new Engineer Tech where I work. They are Resume generated from a web site and not your standard 1 or 2 pages. Many of them were very lengthy. One was submitted in all CAPS and 1 had no caps. Neither got hired.

I was stunned at how difficult they were to read. The OP reminded me of that.

[David Kirk]

Dave -- Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It is always interesting to hear from those that build the bikes we love and ride. BTW, have you ever thought about doing a batch of "stock" bikes like Sasha does with his Speedvagen line?

Hey Keith,

Thanks for your comments.

I have considered making batches of stock bikes but in the end I'm just not moved to do it. Remember that I have been down the road more than once during my Serotta days and spent too many years building stock bikes for nameless and faceless customers. The desire to make individual bikes for individual riders who can give me direct feedback and the challenge of meeting an individual's needs is very rewarding. I don't think I could give that up. Combine that with the idea that if I were to make batches of bikes I would no doubt need to bring in help to get this done in a profitable way and I frankly do not want to give up total control of the build process - having total control of the process from head to toe is one of the great pleasures of doing this. I can fuss over a detail as long as I like. When you have others working with you you must at times let things go in order to keep stuff moving through the system and to keep the system moving. Having been on both sides of this equation for years now I know which path ends up producing the best bikes.

And lastly - I do everything I can to keep my lead time as short as possible so that customers do not have to wait years to get one of my bikes. Right now my lead time is about 10 1/2 months and if I were to take on a stock bike project it would add a good bit of time to that and make my core customers, the ones who have put bread on my table for years now, wait longer to get their own made to measure bike.

So for me it's not the best path. It can at times be tempting because I think I could sell a bunch of bikes in short order but still, in the long run, it's not my path.

A sunny and warm day today and snow tomorrow - time to get out for one of the last relaxed rides of the season.

Thanks again,

dave

[David Kirk]

Very simply put, it's quotes like this that make me read this forum, and now the smoke out thread.

Well put Dave, I hope one day to be able to afford a custom made bike by you. You not only build great looking bikes, but you take the time to explain stuff to "hack ridders" like myself.
Thanks

Hey,

I'm happy to read that you understand. Thanks for the comment.

Dave

[bobswire]

I have a used 2007 CDA that was built for someone whose main stipulation was he wanted it (Quote) ," built around the geo of a stock Colnago C50 frameset. Kelly worked around what was one of my favorite rides to date and put his Serotta spin on it. Bike was designed and built to be a RR/circuit race bike stiff in all the right spots!". (end quote)

Anyway I find this bike to be one if not the best fitting and fun rides I've ever owned.
The ST is 54cm and TT 55cm.
There are deals out there as long as you know what you want in regards to geo and measurements.
My other bike is a Seven Axiom (2002) but was a standardize build along the lines of the CDA.
Both are wonderful rides that I wouldn't have been able to afford new especially now that I'm retired living on a fixed income.
Both frames F/F/HS cost me under $2000 together.

Had I the funds I would have ordered custom but beggars can't be choosey ..
Cheers,
Bob

[Pete Serotta]

He has always been very correct in understanding and communicating the facts to a customer and a forumite correctly.


There is not anything wrong with buying used if the bike fits and was designed for your requirements.

Yes I have had and am biased to SEROTTA but I also have a KIRK which was sized and designed for my wants and needs by DAVE.

I have had it for over 5 years and will have it for a very long time. He captured my needs and cycling wants, as well as!!!! Additionally I can always send it back to him for a refurbish and the adding of anything I might later need.

Yes, Ben Serotta will do the same for any Serotta and also Tom Kellogg (SPECTRUM) will work on his brand and he also has worked on refurbishing many european ones.

Before I got sick, I was scheduled to go see Spectrum about a frame I have had for many many years.

There are plenty of wonderful builders out there but these are ones I have personal experience with. PETE

[Keith A]

Dave -- Thanks for the insightful reply.

[FlashUNC]

As someone who picked up a Kirk-made Serotta on the forums a couple months back, I can attest Dave was more than generous with his time answering a few questions via PM about the history of the frame before I bought it from the previous owner.

And Dave never got within a country mile of "Well, that is a great frame, but you should just buy the stuff I'm making now instead..."

Since I've ridden the frame for a few months now, the product spoke for itself (even if it wasn't built for me, its still the best riding bike I've ever been on), and one of these days when I've got enough pennies saved up, a Kirk would be on my shortlist of custom frames, if not at the top of the list. If anything, Dave's helped create a future customer, rather than the used frame crossing me off the list forever.

I would tend to think for any builder, despite the current economy, that a strong used market for your product means many, many people are interested in what you're making. That should, in turn, create customers for your new products.

I don't see why any builder would get out of shape over a healthy used market for their bikes/frames. It only has to help new sales in the long-run, right?

[David Kirk]

As someone who picked up a Kirk-made Serotta on the forums a couple months back, I can attest Dave was more than generous with his time answering a few questions via PM about the history of the frame before I bought it from the previous owner.

And Dave never got within a country mile of "Well, that is a great frame, but you should just buy the stuff I'm making now instead..."

Since I've ridden the frame for a few months now, the product spoke for itself (even if it wasn't built for me, its still the best riding bike I've ever been on), and one of these days when I've got enough pennies saved up, a Kirk would be on my shortlist of custom frames, if not at the top of the list. If anything, Dave's helped create a future customer, rather than the used frame crossing me off the list forever.

I would tend to think for any builder, despite the current economy, that a strong used market for your product means many, many people are interested in what you're making. That should, in turn, create customers for your new products.

I don't see why any builder would get out of shape over a healthy used market for their bikes/frames. It only has to help new sales in the long-run, right?

Thanks - you made my day.

Dave

[Pete Serotta]

Thanks MAXDOG....

Folks please lets just "share" our opinions and not attack others.

If anyone is cranky, please just attack me and leave everyone else alone.

David Kirk makes a world class frame. I have one and will always have one... And besides he is a hell of a nice guy as is his wife Karin.

And lastly - - there is NO WAY I could ever make a frame as nice as his, nor that rides as well. (Wish I could) - - But quality bikes that capture the ride the customer wants, fits the customer, and is something one wants to keep always is a rare happening.

Yes, I have a steel Serotta (Murray and a 30th Ann which I will keep along with the Kirk). David might have even built the Serotta Murray!!!! :) )

PETE


dekindy, i was not suggesting a policy committee or moving to a communist state. in fact let me identify my credentials before further comment. i was an entrepreneur, who after graduating with a degree in economics, taught myself to program, got a job at a software firm, left and co-founded another software company and retired 17 years ago at the age of 34 a multi-millionaire (back when a million really still seemed like a lot of money). i then started to manage my money in the financial markets, growing my wealth substantially and bailing out in 2000. i really thought i had it going on.

well unfortunately one rarely learns a lot from their successes, but nothing like failure to sober you up. i got back in the markets in 2002 thinking things had bottomed and i knew how to trade. wrong on both counts. i proceeded to lose three quarters of my money. i have since reeducated myself on the true mechanisms of the financial markets and am on my why back up, from an economic standpoint. i would say, i'm the definition of a capitalist.

now having laid that ground work let me take issue with your comments, if you don't mind. i do not believe that capitalism is either an efficient or fair distributor of assets. i do believe it's the best system of economics around. but like any man made system, it needs to be regulated and managed.

either way your response was some what out of context with my original point. in a free market system we allocate our assets. how we allocate those assets, determines who and what succeeds and not. plain and simple.

[veloduffer]

I think the used market can often benefit the small bike builders - it's essentially free advertising. When you go to a group ride, someone will invariably ask about your bike, who built it and why did you choose to buy it. No better advertising than a personal endorsement.

Most folks start off with a big brand bike, because that's what they know. As they get more involved and may decide on the custom route or something different, seeing someone on a custom bike helps encourage that process. And when they realize that the difference in price between custom and stock is not really different, it gives the custom builder the marketing edge.

I own both new and used custom bikes. The used market does allow me to have more bikes (six bikes) than if I bought new, and I am lucky to be a very common size.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have actually gone the other route, reducing the quantity of bikes and getting two custom bikes (one Bedford I have now with another on its way shortly). Money spent on bikes that I don't ride much, that don't fit quite right or are otherwise shelved is wasted IMO. I can see how others would disagree, but with kids, work and other hobbies, a couple GREAT bikes are better than a lot of very good bikes. Oddly enough, I sold my bikes that I didn't ride much and that paid in full for my two Bedfords...a great trade-off IMO.

Now the next question, do I get a custom Waltworks MTB>>>hmmmmmm. :banana: