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AndrewS
11-05-2010, 07:59 PM
Been looking at some stuff lately and it doesn't look particularly challenging to build your own silver soldered lugged steel frame. There's a lot of info out there on doing it without a jig, and I'm a handy guy. No special tools needed, aside from an angle measuring device.

Who's done this? What'd you think?

bike22
11-05-2010, 08:09 PM
Could you kindly link me to some of the resources you have read, either online or in print?
I think I'd like to do something similar sometime.

Dekonick
11-05-2010, 08:14 PM
Bob - Pbbob (forumite) has built a frame. His wife sent him to a week long frame design 'camp'. From what I understand, he learned a lot, but said his Kirk rides much better :)

richpur
11-05-2010, 08:29 PM
I'm also considering taking my best shot at framebuilding. These guys seem to have alot to offer.
http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/ :beer:

dave thompson
11-05-2010, 08:36 PM
Been looking at some stuff lately and it doesn't look particularly challenging to build your own silver soldered lugged steel frame. There's a lot of info out there on doing it without a jig, and I'm a handy guy. No special tools needed, aside from an angle measuring device.

Who's done this? What'd you think?
Think so? Contact Doug Fattic or Dave Boehm about their framebuilding classes and what it takes for a beginner to accomplish a successful frame.

eddief
11-05-2010, 08:53 PM
http://www.hottubes.com/ShopWebSite/Frame_Building_Class.html

I think I will leave mine up to the likes of Richard Schwinn, Steve Rex, etc.

rcnute
11-05-2010, 09:23 PM
I know a couple of guys who built their own frames (lugged and fillet). The amount of time and study needed to get everything to work together is intense.

David Kirk
11-05-2010, 09:33 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave

dave thompson
11-05-2010, 09:36 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave
Dave, I'll hold your tools.

dimsy
11-05-2010, 09:37 PM
from what I hear, it isn't the brazing that's difficult but rather getting good alignment. without a jig that might be hard.

doug fattic (lugged steel)
ubi (lugged steel, tig welded steel, tig welded titanium)
yamaguchi (lugged steel)
A.N.T. (tig welded steel)

any of these options are fine choices for a frame building school. from what I hear, doug fattic is the least expensive (depending on your design) and probably the most amount of time you'll have to work on your frame in a class of about 3 students.

i really do think that if you try it all on your own without any prior knowledge on alignment or any special alignment tools you're gonna run into problems.

good luck though.

swt
11-05-2010, 09:38 PM
How is this not trolling. FFS.

Louis
11-05-2010, 09:38 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave

Dave,

We're going to be offering an airframe building class next year. Send in your $5 million deposit ASAP to reserve a place. We'll provide you with everything you need.

At the end of the class we'll bill you for the balance. (Exact amount is a function of what you want to build and how many part we have to scrap during the process, but figure about 9 x the initial deposit.)

Think of how much fun it will be to fly home your very own jet.

Louis

http://www.air-attack.com/MIL/f18sh/f18csunset_20070830.jpg

dbh
11-05-2010, 09:42 PM
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/

Curious what they'd say.

rugbysecondrow
11-05-2010, 09:56 PM
How is this not trolling. FFS.

Anybody notice a pattern here?

bluesea
11-05-2010, 10:01 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave


I'll do the test flight, how hard could it be. Will fly over water for safety. Have fallen in the water many times--how hard can it be?

Polyglot
11-05-2010, 10:05 PM
I built a few frames in the early eighties thinking that it would be a way to get a frame on the cheap. I was reasonably handy, had good dexterity with tools and had an oxy-acetylene torch, three files, a hack saw and a good bench vise. If you are starting in a similar situation, it is not impossible to accomplish, but you will find that there are many challenges that are not explained on-line, so I would suggest that you seek out a local builder who can act as your sounding board and mentor, especially since you may find yourself in a situation where you need to make a decision under strict time limitations (you don't want to be reheating certain joints more than absolutely necessary.) I found it especially useful to have an experienced eye help me adjust the flame correctly and teach me how to recognize temperature by color and how to use the actual flame most efficiently. I doubt these things can be learned on-line. As for the geometry, I decided to copy an existing frame, which is great in theory but a bit more complex to achieve in reality. If you are out by a few millimeters, your whole frame is thrown out of whack (I learned this while building my first frame). I also learned that if you go to set the rear end too early, it is possible to ripple the chainstays. For alignment, I used a tile floor and the dental floss tied to the rear drop-out method. My frame came out so well that when I finally got it on a table after more than 30K miles it was still straight.

54ny77
11-05-2010, 10:16 PM
you'll be ok if you have a website first.

BCS
11-05-2010, 10:19 PM
it doesn't look particularly challenging to build your own silver soldered lugged steel frame....I'm a handy guy.

Some of your prior posts are actually interesting but this really insults the skill of the craftsmen who fabricate the bikes we covet.

May I suggest an avatar?

pbjbike
11-05-2010, 10:21 PM
I built a few frames in the early eighties thinking that it would be a way to get a frame on the cheap. I was reasonably handy, had good dexterity with tools and had an oxy-acetylene torch, three files, a hack saw and a good bench vise. If you are starting in a similar situation, it is not impossible to accomplish, but you will find that there are many challenges that are not explained on-line, so I would suggest that you seek out a local builder who can act as your sounding board and mentor, especially since you may find yourself in a situation where you need to make a decision under strict time limitations (you don't want to be reheating certain joints more than absolutely necessary.) I found it especially useful to have an experienced eye help me adjust the flame correctly and teach me how to recognize temperature by color and how to use the actual flame most efficiently. I doubt these things can be learned on-line. As for the geometry, I decided to copy an existing frame, which is great in theory but a bit more complex to achieve in reality. If you are out by a few millimeters, your whole frame is thrown out of whack (I learned this while building my first frame). I also learned that if you go to set the rear end too early, it is possible to ripple the chainstays. For alignment, I used a tile floor and the dental floss tied to the rear drop-out method. My frame came out so well that when I finally got it on a table after more than 30K miles it was still straight.

So well said! :beer: It's not like sweating plumbing fittings, then again, it is. Takes years of doing the same thing over and over to get it right. Not to mention designing the frame and selecting the tubeset. Subjective to the nth degree. The link to VS proves the point...

I would love to see Andrew build a lugged steel frame AND a bamboo frame.
Get on it! :banana:

maxdog
11-05-2010, 10:25 PM
hey andrew, i too am very handy. i'm restoring the old schaefer brewing family estate, up here in sharon springs, ny. i do it all myself; masonry, rough and finish carpentry, plumbing, eletrical, drywall, plaster etc... i even setup a wood milling shop in the basement to reproduce the old trim. i taught myself to program, co-founded a software company and retired 17 years ago at the age of 34. i taught myself to trade the financial markets (the hardest thing i ever did) and out perform 99.9% of the pros. i taught my self to cook and bake and my wife and me make nearly all our food from basic ingredients (a lot of which we grow ourselves or buy from local farmers). i make some kick arse bread btw. i heat my house with wood from my property, which i fell, buck, haul, split and stack,in a wood stove i installed myself against a fireproof heat circulating wall i designed myself (not as effective as i had hoped.). i too like the experience and self sufficiency of doing things myself. at the same time this has taught me to respect the effort and time it takes to do something well/right. i'll tell you what, i don't know about you, but when i'm sprinting on a flat at 25+ mph or whipping down a mountain at close to 60 mph, i'd like to know i've got a reliable well designed frame built by somebody with some experience, under my butt. but hey it's your life, so good luck and make sure your helmet is securely fastened. btw dave, i'll take one of those planes if it comes with a free frame.

Louis
11-05-2010, 10:29 PM
I'll do the test flight, how hard could it be. Will fly over water for safety. Have fallen in the water many times--how hard can it be?

How well can you land on a pitching carrier deck at night? ;)

BengeBoy
11-05-2010, 10:32 PM
you'll be ok if you have a website first.

And move to Portland...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mryv0llaLmg

davidlee
11-05-2010, 10:32 PM
hey andrew, i too am very handy. i'm restoring the old schaefer brewing family estate, up here in sharon springs, ny. i do it all myself; masonry, rough and finish carpentry, plumbing, eletrical, drywall, plaster etc... i even setup a wood milling shop in the basement to reproduce the old trim. i taught myself to program, co-founded a software company and retired 17 years ago at the age of 34. i taught myself to trade the financial markets (the hardest thing i ever did) and out perform 99.9% of the pros. i taught my self to cook and bake and my wife and me make nearly all our food from basic ingredients (a lot of which we grow ourselves or buy from local farmers). i make some kick arse bread btw. i heat my house with wood from my property, which i fell, buck, haul, split and stack,in a wood stove i installed myself against a fireproof heat circulating wall i designed myself (not as effective as i had hoped.). i too like the experience and self sufficiency of doing things myself. at the same time this has taught me to respect the effort and time it takes to do something well/right. i'll tell you what, i don't know about you, but when i'm sprinting on a flat at 25+ mph or whipping down a mountain at close to 60 mph, i'd like to know i've got a reliable well designed frame built by somebody with some experience, under my butt. but hey it's your life, so good luck and make sure your helmet is securely fastened. btw dave, i'll take one of those planes if it comes with a free frame.

I like this guy :)
Well done mate.
davidlee

happycampyer
11-05-2010, 10:32 PM
Dave,

I have some spare Fetzer valves if you need 'em.

Peter B
11-05-2010, 10:37 PM
<snip>

Who's done this?


Check out Suzy Jackson's site (http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/) documenting her framebuilding hobby. Have a look at her successes, failures and learnings. Lots of good stuff there for the would-be do-it-yourselfer. No, it isn't rocket science, but she's not your average girl either. Click around to the other things she likes to build--high efficiency LED lights, hi-fi pre and power amps, Newtonian telescopes, etc.


Building your own frame is certainly doable. How well it will ride, how safe it will be and how long it will last will be the litmus test of your success. Have fun and consider renewing your health and dental insurance before the first test ride.

richpur
11-05-2010, 10:42 PM
The smugness of many of these posts is really misguided. I assume all framebuilders built their first frame at some time in their career. Despite all the voodoo, a bike frame is not an airplane. Professional frame builders deserve due credit for their mastery of their craft/art, but that doesn't mean someone else given patience and effort can't achieve a satisfactory result. Someone interested enough in their personal development and love of a hobby who wants to invest the time and effort to build something that will be special, if only to them, should be encouraged not ridiculed or discouraged. Who deserves more respect the biker who can write a big check or the one willing to commit himself to creating something himself? I'd vote for the novice craftsman everytime.

cadence90
11-05-2010, 10:42 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave
If you're a "handy guy", it's not that hard, really.

I mean, I built one of these when I was, like, 6...and a bike has got to be way easier than a plane, right?

http://www.fantasticflyers.com/images/prod_det_35.jpg



(Actually, my mechanic is building his own plane and it's awesome. I won't mention that he's been flying forever, is a great mechanic (car and plane), talks with every mentor he can, and has been at building his plane for something like 10 years.)

Lifelover
11-05-2010, 10:51 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave


Does it require any special tools other than an angle measuring device?

maxdog
11-05-2010, 11:12 PM
The smugness of many of these posts is really misguided. I assume all framebuilders built their first frame at some time in their career. Despite all the voodoo, a bike frame is not an airplane. Professional frame builders deserve due credit for their mastery of their craft/art, but that doesn't mean someone else given patience and effort can't achieve a satisfactory result. Someone interested enough in their personal development and love of a hobby who wants to invest the time and effort to build something that will be special, if only to them, should be encouraged not ridiculed or discouraged. Who deserves more respect the biker who can write a big check or the one willing to commit himself to creating something himself? I'd vote for the novice craftsman everytime.

although i would agree, there's definitely a certain level of that directed at andrew, here and in some of his other posts, and i think he definitely brings some interesting debate to the forum, i think you may be misunderstanding the point. how do you think someone like dave kirk feels, a man who may well have had a hand in building my early 90's serotta (still one of my favorite rides), when andrew asks how hard could it be. i don't think he meant any insult, but i'll tell you what i think. damn hard to build a safe, high performance frame the average forum member would want to take out on the road. not to mention the beauty workmanship in some of frames coming from small builders these days, who've spent years honing their craft. i would encourage andrew to try it. it would help give him the proper respect for a well crafted ride. also, the tradition of great artisans and craftsmen apprenticing under master craftsman has it's place. i know from experience i could have saved myself a lot of time, effort and money in some of my endeavors if i had some guidance. go for it andrew, but don't fool yourself that it's easy or that your early works will be very good.

bike22
11-05-2010, 11:16 PM
i just read this article and it looks to be pretty easy to build your own carbon frame: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/carbon_fiber.htm

pbjbike
11-05-2010, 11:21 PM
The smugness of many of these posts is really misguided. I assume all framebuilders built their first frame at some time in their career. Despite all the voodoo, a bike frame is not an airplane. Professional frame builders deserve due credit for their mastery of their craft/art, but that doesn't mean someone else given patience and effort can't achieve a satisfactory result. Someone interested enough in their personal development and love of a hobby who wants to invest the time and effort to build something that will be special, if only to them, should be encouraged not ridiculed or discouraged. Who deserves more respect the biker who can write a big check or the one willing to commit himself to creating something himself? I'd vote for the novice craftsman everytime.

Rich.

Most of the respected framebuilders did not get their start by taking a one week class and then hanging a shingle out for business. Dave and Kelly, Rob V., et al, learned their craft by punching in day after dayat an established company , doing excellent work and learning nuances along the way. They went out on their own and have succeeded because of all the time and effort and thought provoking processes that went before. To suggest that being successful at frame building can be overcome by the enthusiasm of the novice is naiive at best.

Best Regards,

Patrick

rwsaunders
11-05-2010, 11:30 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave

I think that it's relatively easy to get them to fly...it's the landing part that seems to stump a lot of people... :cool:

bluesea
11-05-2010, 11:42 PM
How well can you land on a pitching carrier deck at night? ;)


I saw Top Gun.

jlwdm
11-05-2010, 11:57 PM
Wade Patton will probably chime in soon. He made his first frame a year or so ago and documented it here and across the hall. As he said his time ended up being worth a lot less than minimum wage.

He has posted at VSalon under the Smoked Out section - one of the best sections of all bike forums. I have not read his but it should give a good perspective on building your first frame.

Jeff

cadence90
11-06-2010, 12:10 AM
How well can you land on a pitching carrier deck at night? ;)
If folks haven't seen it yet, Chapter 5 ("Bolter, Bolter, Bolter") of Episode 7 of the PBS series "Carrier" is absolutely insane.

View it here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcxv2qBOXJw)
.
.

Doug Fattic
11-06-2010, 01:11 AM
Hello Andrew,

Your quest is a common one and I’ll assume your inquiry was straightforward. It seems everyone wants to learn how to build bicycle frames lately. For example 8 people have written me for class information since last weekend. It helps that I apprenticed in Europe, have a couple of degrees in education (as in teaching education) and have been doing framebuilding classes since 1976. This constant volume is why I haven’t posted my already designed website. More than enough people find me.

Can I do it myself? is an often asked question on various forums. Usually it is in context of a which-is-a-better-value, spending money on a class or buying a fixture instead? Of course as someone who makes money teaching others my opinions are not unbiased. But I do have the best front row seat watching people learn. Here are some random thoughts:

1. Yes it is possible to do it all by yourself (many have) but it is unlikely you will get a good result – or at least not nearly as good a result if you had expert advice. I’ve painted a few DIY. After watching what the average student does, I’d put the odds at about 50 to 1 you would end up with something decent. But of course you could be in the upper percentile of ability and do fine.
2. Learning to build a frame can be very frustrating. It requires skills most haven’t been taught earlier in life. One of my primary roles as a teacher is keeping emotions in check. This is every bit as important as teaching methods and techniques. All the time I keep an eye out for someone that has reached their limit. Everybody comes all excited to get started and I’ve got to be ready when the difficulty hits them. They weren’t expecting it to be that hard. I plan practice exercises that start out simple and organize the stages we proceed to build confidence as much as knowledge.
3. I make lots of corrections to what students are doing all the time. This is after an explanation and demonstration. And they’ve read the class manual that documents each step. The most likely time they go off the track is after hours working alone in the shop. I often wonder what would happen if I just left them to their own devices.
4. Some have left class with very nice frames. As nice as many that are for sale. They are straight, competently brazed with full penetration within temperature tolerances and on spec. The thing is it takes them 3 times as long to do as it would be for me or some other professional.
5. For comparison, it is way harder for me to teach a framebuilding class than the other social studies classes I used to teach in high school. Or English classes when I was in Japan.
6. The difference between brazing success and a mess is very small. It looks much easier than it really is. I think learning how to braze with a teacher is the greatest reason to take a class.
7. You are going to need more specialty tools than a protractor.
8. A typical class is 2 weeks long because that is the amount of time and money most can afford. I do longer ones too.

You can find examples of student work under my name in the groups section of Flickr

Good luck,
Doug

Wilkinson4
11-06-2010, 01:32 AM
No, it isn't rocket science, but she's not your average girl either.

+1 on Suzy and her bike building diary.... And not your average person by any means. And she is cute too:)

Not that being cute has anything to do with building a bike but on some level it must help. Dave and Doug are proof of that ;)

mIKE

AndrewS
11-06-2010, 02:36 AM
Some of you guys are idiots. I mean, really dumb.

I did not say "I'm going to build a frame to sell". I said I'm thinking of building a frame for myself. There is loads of information out there, including the Tim Paterek book that Henry James sells. I've known several people who have done this, including a high school shop teacher, and are riding the first frame they built 20 years later. And in the middle of all your assinine posts, forumite Polyglot relates the same story.

I am handy. I can forge pattern weld, heat treat and grind knives. I can align frames and build wheels that last decades. I make leather and kydex holsters and sheaths. I make custom micarta for handles. I've built guns from parts, restored them with slow rust bluing, loaded ammunition. I've placed or won shooting matches, bike races and art contests. I can torch and stick weld. I've made ceramics, films, videos and computer animation. I'm a terrific cook and have made my own recipes. I've rebuilt houses, made cabinets and built electrical gear. Almost all of that was done without instruction - just books. And, as a Navy pilot, I've landed an aircraft on more ships, day and night, than most of you have ever seen in your lives.

Bicycle brazing isn't easy, but get a f'ing grip - it isn't brain surgery. People have been building their own frames for a century. There's enough youtube videos on it to fill a weekend and plenty of other reference material. Nova Cycles sells kits specifically for first time builders. The Paterek book has extensive discussion of ad hoc jigs and working in sections. This is not new territory.

There is no disrespect to a master frame builder by becoming an amateur frame builder. Ergott and Oldpotatoe don't talk down to anyone wishing to build their own wheels, so David Kirk's comment seems particularly snide. I said "not particularly difficult", that's not the same as "easy" -

BTW, David Kirk, come to any Experimental Aircraft Association convention and you can meet hundreds of first time plane builders who have flown their project there. Then you can tell them how they can't build something as "complicated" as an lugged bicycle frame. I've attended 7 of them. I've also flown demonstrations at other air shows.

I realize that the rest of you are the kind of mouth breathers that have to ask if their 9 speed cassette will work with a 10 speed shifter, but why not think before you open your pie holes? I expected this forum to be cosmopolitan enough for a couple of you to have given it a try, and at least a few have - successfully, too.


Pull your heads out of your asses. Try using google before you show what a dim whit you are by saying that something people are doing all over is impossible. To think I bother to write stuff here when I could be making a frame or using my computer for something more noble, like watching pornography.

I would like to thank those few of you who know what you're talking about and posted a thoughtful answer to my inquiry - Doug, Polyglot, Jlwdm, Richpur, Peter B and anyone I missed. The rest of you can kiss my Naval Aviator butt, because I know what is ACTUALLY difficult to do in life, and what is just something you can learn.

Louis
11-06-2010, 03:12 AM
I said "not particularly difficult", that's not the same as "easy"

Now I think we're splitting hairs.

That said, Andrew, if you feel it would be enjoyable and instructive to learn then build a frame, then by all means do so. I don't think anyone actually doubts your ability to do it, whether they are idiots or not.

To be honest, I'd rather spend my free time riding than tearing up my hands attempting to build a frame, but that's just me. I can understand why that sort of thing might interest some.

Have fun and good luck.

Louis

bluesea
11-06-2010, 03:13 AM
Sorry that you feel so bad, and rightly so. However most of the cutting *humor* came for a reason, and within the mystery behind the cause of that humor lies an important answer.

54ny77
11-06-2010, 03:39 AM
http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/MacGruber-poster.jpg

firerescuefin
11-06-2010, 04:05 AM
I can microwave my own meals, drive a car, pump up a tire, sand a 2x4, use to be able to beat the original Super Mario Bros (without losing a life), and I have been known to ride a bike from one place to another....expediently. I love this forum, enjoy the banter, respect some posts, laugh at others, imagine that I would like some of you (in real life), know that I wouldn't like others.

Some members are arrogant, self important, and speak down to anyone that might have an opinion other than their own. Others have nothing to prove, oozing knowledge, experience, and class....and many more just love to ride their bikes, tinker on their bikes, dream about buying a new part or ordering a custom bike, and are just excited to to find a place where others share their passion.

Andrew, I am not sure where you fit in there. I appreciate your intellectual curiosity...if that is what it genuinely is.

I feel fortunate that Dave Kirk is an active member of this forum, and he is always quick to add legitimate value to a thread and answer a member's question or PM......Unlike some others, who overtly state or insinuate that they have the golden ass, or that "their daddy could buy a hundred of those"......I think you know better and the difference between the two.

I wish I had the time to contemplate building my own bike, but I am too busy raising a family, earning a living, and contemplating how I am going to pay for my next bike part or bike trip with friends.

Good luck with your quest....and take yourself and others a little less seriously......Seriously.

rugbysecondrow
11-06-2010, 07:45 AM
Yep, this is the pattern. Victimization and insults...next is the thread closure. :crap:

Climb01742
11-06-2010, 08:18 AM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave

come on, dave. make your own space shuttle. go big or go home. ;)

sadly, in my business, almost every client thinks they can build their own ad. how hard can it be?

i think there's an important distinction when you "craft" almost anything. at the most basic level, the question is: do the pieces fit together and do they achieve their function? that is one challenge. and my guess is many people who try to build their own (BLANK) are out to see if they can build a functioning (BLANK). and doing this is, indeed, rewarding.

but here, to me, is the rub. the distance between a "craft" and a "craftsman/woman" is enormous. the distance between function and beauty is equally enormous.

we can all write a sentence. a sentence that functions as a communication. but how many of us can write the last few paragraphs of "the great gatsby"?

David Kirk
11-06-2010, 08:26 AM
Some of you guys are idiots. I mean, really dumb.

I did not say "I'm going to build a frame to sell". I said I'm thinking of building a frame for myself. There is loads of information out there, including the Tim Paterek book that Henry James sells. I've known several people who have done this, including a high school shop teacher, and are riding the first frame they built 20 years later. And in the middle of all your assinine posts, forumite Polyglot relates the same story.

I am handy. I can forge pattern weld, heat treat and grind knives. I can align frames and build wheels that last decades. I make leather and kydex holsters and sheaths. I make custom micarta for handles. I've built guns from parts, restored them with slow rust bluing, loaded ammunition. I've placed or won shooting matches, bike races and art contests. I can torch and stick weld. I've made ceramics, films, videos and computer animation. I'm a terrific cook and have made my own recipes. I've rebuilt houses, made cabinets and built electrical gear. Almost all of that was done without instruction - just books. And, as a Navy pilot, I've landed an aircraft on more ships, day and night, than most of you have ever seen in your lives.

Bicycle brazing isn't easy, but get a f'ing grip - it isn't brain surgery. People have been building their own frames for a century. There's enough youtube videos on it to fill a weekend and plenty of other reference material. Nova Cycles sells kits specifically for first time builders. The Paterek book has extensive discussion of ad hoc jigs and working in sections. This is not new territory.

There is no disrespect to a master frame builder by becoming an amateur frame builder. Ergott and Oldpotatoe don't talk down to anyone wishing to build their own wheels, so David Kirk's comment seems particularly snide. I said "not particularly difficult", that's not the same as "easy" -

BTW, David Kirk, come to any Experimental Aircraft Association convention and you can meet hundreds of first time plane builders who have flown their project there. Then you can tell them how they can't build something as "complicated" as an lugged bicycle frame. I've attended 7 of them. I've also flown demonstrations at other air shows.

I realize that the rest of you are the kind of mouth breathers that have to ask if their 9 speed cassette will work with a 10 speed shifter, but why not think before you open your pie holes? I expected this forum to be cosmopolitan enough for a couple of you to have given it a try, and at least a few have - successfully, too.


Pull your heads out of your asses. Try using google before you show what a dim whit you are by saying that something people are doing all over is impossible. To think I bother to write stuff here when I could be making a frame or using my computer for something more noble, like watching pornography.

I would like to thank those few of you who know what you're talking about and posted a thoughtful answer to my inquiry - Doug, Polyglot, Jlwdm, Richpur, Peter B and anyone I missed. The rest of you can kiss my Naval Aviator butt, because I know what is ACTUALLY difficult to do in life, and what is just something you can learn.

Alrighty then. Good luck to you with your build. Be sure to come back to show everyone how easy it is.

Stay well,

dave

William
11-06-2010, 08:38 AM
I've looked into frame building myself, checked out the classes, and looked up everything I could on the subject. I've asked many of the frame builders (who frequent here and across the hall) questions, probably some really stupid questions as well. :) I'm handy and I would like to give it a try some day just for my own intellectual and creative curiosity. Period. Would I end up with a nice rideable frame? I have no idea, but for me, the journey would be the real reward.

I've seen some of the knives AndewS has created and would bet that he would have a better than average chance of creating something decent with his metal working skills. Remember, it's the journey man, it's the journey. atmo.



William

SuzyQ
11-06-2010, 08:40 AM
I am handy. I can forge pattern weld, heat treat and grind knives. I can align frames and build wheels that last decades. I make leather and kydex holsters and sheaths. I make custom micarta for handles. I've built guns from parts, restored them with slow rust bluing, loaded ammunition. I've placed or won shooting matches, bike races and art contests. I can torch and stick weld. I've made ceramics, films, videos and computer animation. I'm a terrific cook and have made my own recipes. I've rebuilt houses, made cabinets and built electrical gear. Almost all of that was done without instruction - just books. And, as a Navy pilot, I've landed an aircraft on more ships, day and night, than most of you have ever seen in your lives.

"The Most Interesting Man in the World"

skijoring
11-06-2010, 08:41 AM
Which is the strongest threadlocker: red or purple Loctite? Blue? :rolleyes:

dogdriver
11-06-2010, 09:34 AM
Thanks for the thread, guys-- it made my morning. Two quotes come to mind:

"God is in the details"-- Einstein

"Never sleep in a restaurant or eat in a hotel."-- A guy I work with

There's also a good joke about a doctor and a plumber, but I don't type fast enough to include it here before the kids get up...

dancinkozmo
11-06-2010, 09:53 AM
"The Most Interesting Man in the World"

as my hero keith stone would say...dont let us mouth-breathers bring you down Andrew ...!!
(best of luck)

93legendti
11-06-2010, 10:04 AM
"Of course it's hard. The hard is what makes it great. If it was easy, everyone could do it."

Jimmy Duggan

AndrewS
11-06-2010, 10:21 AM
Alrighty then. Good luck to you with your build. Be sure to come back to show everyone how easy it is.

Stay well,

dave
I don't think it will be easy, Dave. In fact, I decided to post about it on my what was my favorite forum to ellicit information from others who have done it. Instead, I received scorn for even suggesting that I might be capable of it.

The answer, from other people who have done it, is a resounding "Yes". Both in this thread and via PM.

Then there's the scoffing of the usual forum blowhards. And one master frame builder. Weird.

Consider being the ambassador of your trade, Dave. I have never met an amateur blacksmith, artist, gunsmith, etc. who didn't use their experience to further recommend the skills of true professionals, like yourself. People like me who dare to struggle to do something like this have more respect for those who make it seem easy and have the depth of knowledge to do something beyond the simple joining of straight tubes onto a copied geometry that I will.


For the rest of you, my plan was to copy the geometry of one of my frames that fits, hand miter the tubing using either the Nova Tube Notcher program or the via the lugs themselves. Silver soldering will go in sub-units using a simple angle iron jig. I am uncertain whether I want to cut the lugs or use them as is, since Kirk Pacenti (nice guy, I've chatted with him a little) makes uncut lugs that are only $5 more than buying semi-finished Nova ones. I'll use silver solder to decrease my chances of heat damaging the tubing, and give myself more opportunity to redo a mistake.

I expect the process to be slow - really slow. I expect to make mistakes and maybe even have to order a new tube when I do. I expect to have to align and re-align as I join the subunits. I do not expect this to be cheaper than buying frame, better performing, lighter or nicer looking than even a stock frame. I do expect it to be rideable, by me and only me, after I get a shop to double check my alignment and face the BB, head tube and possibly seattube. I expect to enjoy the experience of building something with my hands and come to a greater understanding about just how much skill it takes to do this professionally. I have no interest in becoming a professional and will stick to selling a few knives know and then.

I may post my experience somewhere where people might be interested, rather than ridicule me for even attempting it.

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/Tabbed-Tube-Notcher.html
http://www.bikelugs.com/store/index.php?intCategoryID=2
http://forestbikes.blogspot.com/
http://www.henryjames.com/patman.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJhW913Ykc
http://www.amazon.com/Lugged-Bicycle-Construction-Manual-Builder/dp/1442186305
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?399311-How-to-build-a-lugged-steel-frame-with-pics
http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/frame/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Almost-jigless-bicycle-frame-building/
http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/faq.asp

maxdog
11-06-2010, 10:50 AM
I don't think it will be easy, Dave. In fact, I decided to post about it on my what was my favorite forum to ellicit information from others who have done it. Instead, I received scorn for even suggesting that I might be capable of it.

The answer, from other people who have done it, is a resounding "Yes". Both in this thread and via PM.

Then there's the scoffing of the usual forum blowhards. And one master frame builder. Weird.

Consider being the ambassador of your trade, Dave. I have never met an amateur blacksmith, artist, gunsmith, etc. who didn't use their experience to further recommend the skills of true professionals, like yourself. People like me who dare to struggle to do something like this have more respect for those who make it seem easy and have the depth of knowledge to do something beyond the simple joining of straight tubes onto a copied geometry that I will.


For the rest of you, my plan was to copy the geometry of one of my frames that fits, hand miter the tubing using either the Nova Tube Notcher program or the via the lugs themselves. Silver soldering will go in sub-units using a simple angle iron jig. I am uncertain whether I want to cut the lugs or use them as is, since Kirk Pacenti (nice guy, I've chatted with him a little) makes uncut lugs that are only $5 more than buying semi-finished Nova ones. I'll use silver solder to decrease my chances of heat damaging the tubing, and give myself more opportunity to redo a mistake.

I expect the process to be slow - really slow. I expect to make mistakes and maybe even have to order a new tube when I do. I expect to have to align and re-align as I join the subunits. I do not expect this to be cheaper than buying frame, better performing, lighter or nicer looking than even a stock frame. I do expect it to be rideable, by me and only me, after I get a shop to double check my alignment and face the BB, head tube and possibly seattube. I expect to enjoy the experience of building something with my hands and come to a greater understanding about just how much skill it takes to do this professionally. I have no interest in becoming a professional and will stick to selling a few knives know and then.

I may post my experience somewhere where people might be interested, rather than ridicule me for even attempting it.

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/Tabbed-Tube-Notcher.html
http://www.bikelugs.com/store/index.php?intCategoryID=2
http://forestbikes.blogspot.com/
http://www.henryjames.com/patman.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJhW913Ykc
http://www.amazon.com/Lugged-Bicycle-Construction-Manual-Builder/dp/1442186305
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?399311-How-to-build-a-lugged-steel-frame-with-pics
http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/frame/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Almost-jigless-bicycle-frame-building/
http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/faq.asp

bravo andrew, for a noble rebound. i for one am interested in hearing about your endeavor.

duke
11-06-2010, 10:50 AM
I built one (bicycle not airplane) in metal shop in 10th grade. Not that tough. It just didn't go very straight down the road.
duke

Polyglot
11-06-2010, 11:01 AM
Andrew,

Good on you! I honestly don't understand why the whole thread went haywire, as when I posted my own frame-building experience, there had still not been anything negative that had been written. Then you have one snide remark and everybody seemed to be the expert saying that it was not possible.

I feel that Dave's comments were not particularly well-chosen, but can understand where he is coming from as he is undoubtedly pestered by untold people without even the most basic skills who think that they can build a frame. I have the same thing in my profession, where lay-people frequently think it is "easy" and within reach of almost anybody with basic skills. Like in framebuilding, in my profession, everybody had to start somewhere. Most will get specific training and more often than not a university degree before venturing out. To others it will just come naturally.

When I built my first frame, I knew it was not perfect, but I was nonetheless proud of it. I have proudly shown it, and all of its errors, to many framebuilders who I respect greatly. When I point out the errors, almost every single one of these framebuilders goes on to disclose some of the mistakes that they themselves made at some time in their lives. We both get a chuckle about it. Heck, I built one frame with the seat tube in upside down, with the butting at the top and no butting at the bottom... That one in particular seems to resonate with many builders...

I wish you the best of luck and can promise that you WILL get satisfaction from completing the project, but do not expect perfection, nor any type of monetary saving.

jmeloy
11-06-2010, 11:12 AM
no other builder has given 1/10th the (outstanding) free advice that Dave has on this forum over the years.

firerescuefin
11-06-2010, 11:26 AM
"The Most Interesting Man in the World"



He is Cippolini's stunt cock

Cavendish leads him out

Lance learns doping techniques from him

Cancellara calls him Zeus

When attacking Contador, he never drops his chain

DK's new innovation will be known as the AndrewStay

He never breaths out of his mouth......yes, that's right... never



AndrewS is....the most interesting cyclist in the world.

Pedal quickly my friends...... ;)

saab2000
11-06-2010, 11:30 AM
I'd like to build my own frame too.

But just like flying an airplane is easy, there's a big difference between a couple laps around the patch in a Cessna 152 and flying a complex jet.

The master builders didn't get there overnight. There's a combination of experience, practice, instinct and intuition and seat-of-the-pants feel that makes all the difference.

Give it a shot, but if I ever do it'll be under the guidance of a builder for my own first attempt.

Ahneida Ride
11-06-2010, 11:30 AM
I wanna start my own bank and practice fractional reserve.

If I gots 10 HB in the box. I can only sell 10 HB.
But with fractional reserve, I could sell 100 HB.

:banana:

------------

Cataract surgery is not supposed to be that difficult either.
Only a few are perfectionists.

-------------------------

I might add.

One day, Kelly Bedford just decided to build a bike.
All the Masters started somewhere.

Peter B
11-06-2010, 11:39 AM
<snip>

my plan was to copy the geometry of one of my frames that fits, hand miter the tubing using either the Nova Tube Notcher program or the via the lugs themselves. Silver soldering will go in sub-units using a simple angle iron jig. I am uncertain whether I want to cut the lugs or use them as is, since Kirk Pacenti (nice guy, I've chatted with him a little) makes uncut lugs that are only $5 more than buying semi-finished Nova ones. I'll use silver solder to decrease my chances of heat damaging the tubing, and give myself more opportunity to redo a mistake.

I expect the process to be slow - really slow. I expect to make mistakes and maybe even have to order a new tube when I do. I expect to have to align and re-align as I join the subunits. I do not expect this to be cheaper than buying frame, better performing, lighter or nicer looking than even a stock frame. I do expect it to be rideable, by me and only me, after I get a shop to double check my alignment and face the BB, head tube and possibly seattube. I expect to enjoy the experience of building something with my hands and come to a greater understanding about just how much skill it takes to do this professionally. I have no interest in becoming a professional and will stick to selling a few knives know and then.

<snip>

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/Tabbed-Tube-Notcher.html
http://www.bikelugs.com/store/index.php?intCategoryID=2
http://forestbikes.blogspot.com/
http://www.henryjames.com/patman.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJhW913Ykc
http://www.amazon.com/Lugged-Bicycle-Construction-Manual-Builder/dp/1442186305
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?399311-How-to-build-a-lugged-steel-frame-with-pics
http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/frame/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Almost-jigless-bicycle-frame-building/
http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/faq.asp

Andrew,

Perhaps if you had led your initial post with the above two paragraphs you would have elicited very different responses.

Have fun with the project!

David Kirk
11-06-2010, 11:39 AM
I don't think it will be easy, Dave. In fact, I decided to post about it on my what was my favorite forum to ellicit information from others who have done it. Instead, I received scorn for even suggesting that I might be capable of it.

The answer, from other people who have done it, is a resounding "Yes". Both in this thread and via PM.

Then there's the scoffing of the usual forum blowhards. And one master frame builder. Weird.

Consider being the ambassador of your trade, Dave. I have never met an amateur blacksmith, artist, gunsmith, etc. who didn't use their experience to further recommend the skills of true professionals, like yourself. People like me who dare to struggle to do something like this have more respect for those who make it seem easy and have the depth of knowledge to do something beyond the simple joining of straight tubes onto a copied geometry that I will.


For the rest of you, my plan was to copy the geometry of one of my frames that fits, hand miter the tubing using either the Nova Tube Notcher program or the via the lugs themselves. Silver soldering will go in sub-units using a simple angle iron jig. I am uncertain whether I want to cut the lugs or use them as is, since Kirk Pacenti (nice guy, I've chatted with him a little) makes uncut lugs that are only $5 more than buying semi-finished Nova ones. I'll use silver solder to decrease my chances of heat damaging the tubing, and give myself more opportunity to redo a mistake.

I expect the process to be slow - really slow. I expect to make mistakes and maybe even have to order a new tube when I do. I expect to have to align and re-align as I join the subunits. I do not expect this to be cheaper than buying frame, better performing, lighter or nicer looking than even a stock frame. I do expect it to be rideable, by me and only me, after I get a shop to double check my alignment and face the BB, head tube and possibly seattube. I expect to enjoy the experience of building something with my hands and come to a greater understanding about just how much skill it takes to do this professionally. I have no interest in becoming a professional and will stick to selling a few knives know and then.

I may post my experience somewhere where people might be interested, rather than ridicule me for even attempting it.

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/Tabbed-Tube-Notcher.html
http://www.bikelugs.com/store/index.php?intCategoryID=2
http://forestbikes.blogspot.com/
http://www.henryjames.com/patman.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJhW913Ykc
http://www.amazon.com/Lugged-Bicycle-Construction-Manual-Builder/dp/1442186305
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?399311-How-to-build-a-lugged-steel-frame-with-pics
http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/frame/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Almost-jigless-bicycle-frame-building/
http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/faq.asp


Hey,

I'm sorry if my tone came off as scornful. If it did maybe it was because I was reacting to your tone.........in your initial post you came off as dismissive to me.

If we set that aside and start over here is what I think - I think if the person wanting to build their own first frame without personal guidance/instruction has a good head on their shoulders, strong hand skills a lot of time and even more patience then there is a strong likelihood that you will end up with a usable bike. It sounds as if you are determined and that you have a plan and that is 90% of the battle.

Now the other side of this. In my 30+ years in the bike biz and 20+ years working as a pro builder I've seen countless folks come along who wanted to teach themselves to build. I was one of those people. I thought that the concept of what needs to be done is really pretty simple and while it may not be easy I, as a self-professed smart guy, should have no trouble doing the task. I had the Talbot book and the Paterick manual and a bike shop boss who bought a few simple jigs that would be more than good enough so I was ready to go. Or at least I thought I was. The most simple tasks were difficult for me. Just holding onto the tube properly so I could file a miter into it wasn't at all like it looked in the book. So, in my case, I didn't really learn anything of real value until I started working at Serotta. This was of course pre-internet and it was much harder to get info and see photos of real work and now things should be much easier.

Now if I was a bit skeptical about your initial post it might be because you are the 1,000,006th guy that has said what you said........ and so far I have yet to meet the guy who ended up with a rideable bike. I'm not saying it can't happen or hasn't happened, but I am saying that I've never seen it happen. It was unfair of me to lump you in with the other 1,000,005 guys and you may indeed be the guy that shows me that it can be done. In fact I hope you are.

So if I were to give any advice it would be to take Mr. Fattic's course. It will save you countless hours of fumbling around in the dark looking at photos on the internet and wondering what they mean. Folks like Doug know how to get the ideas across and can anticipate what you are thinking and the mistakes you might make.

If you think that I can be a help don't hesitate to get in touch and I will advise you as best I can.

As for your suggestion that I become an ambassador for the trade I'd like to think that I am and have been for a few decades. I personally have taught countless folks to become builders, both in person and in the virtual world, and a few of these guys have gone on to being pro builders of the highest order. I constantly answer questions by email and have people from all over pose their questions to me. Sometimes the answer is 'use less heat' and other times the answer is 'you might want to rethink your idea of building a frame for yourself' and I feel that being a good ambassador to the profession requires that I be honest.

Let me know if you need my help. I'll be here.

Dave

firerescuefin
11-06-2010, 11:42 AM
Things are rarely as exciting or as glamorous as they seem.

That being said. If I could study under one of the masters while keeping his workshop clean, with the chance to be able to build great bikes that people wanted to ride, for a living, I would in a heartbeat.

I would not be interested in doing it as a one-off.

Guys like KB, DK, Crumpton, etc. are the elite in their field...I am imagining it's not by chance.

djg
11-06-2010, 11:46 AM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave

Is it supposed to take off? And land?

Actually, a cousin-type (wife's cousin's hubby) built one in his garage. Took a long time, but it seems like a real plane. OTOH, I don't think it's a run of the mill handy-person's hobby project.

I'll hang the parts on my bikes but I'll leave it to a pro to pick the tubes and put them together. Still, I reckon that everybody who actually can do this started somewhere, however hard a road it is, and however unwilling I am to start down it myself.

Climb01742
11-06-2010, 11:52 AM
...it doesn't look particularly challenging to build your own silver soldered lugged steel frame...

had this phrase not been in the original post, i think this thread would have gone quite differently.

and not that david kirk needs anyone to come to his defense, but dave is in the top 1% of this forum for constructive content and tone all-time.

Ahneida Ride
11-06-2010, 11:54 AM
Custom also adds a level of difficulty and complexity.
No 2 bikes are alike and customer expectations are always different.

I've seen Kelly (with 30+ years of experience) scratch his head a few times,
and pull a "DUH" .

Frame builders need to be problem solvers and innovators.

I guess that explains the Wright Brothers.

---------------------

From hanging out with Kelly, I get the distinct impression that Torch skills
are critical, and they are not acquired overnight.

---------------------------------

Doug Fattic is a stellar guy. He would be a excellent teacher.

--------------------------------

Ok ... I'll shut up ... I hope I did not offend anyone.
As I have said repetitively, I know Bo about Jack.
or is that Jack about Bo ? ;)

William
11-06-2010, 12:01 PM
Ok ... I'll shut up ... I hope I did not offend anyone.
As I have said repetitively, I know Bo about Jack.
or is that Jack about Bo ? ;)

Isn't it squat about jack? Or is it jack about squat? Either way, I don't know jack squat either so I'll be on my way.



William :)

1centaur
11-06-2010, 12:05 PM
This thread is a fascinating study of group dynamics and the treacherous shoals of communication within a few words. Literally, if AndrewS had not used the phrase "how hard can it be?" and Dave Kirk had not responded emotionally, this would have been a productive, somewhat informative thread. Instead there was some bandwagon jumping and it became a jumble of explanation and defense (and attack). In hindsight, it's easy to see that "how hard" question triggering an emotional response, and it's easy to see why AndrewS would not perceive it that way. As a Renaissance man, AndrewS appears to view many things as doable that most people would not think of attempting, so he's self-talking when he says "how hard can it be?', he's saying "what am I missing, what are the regular sources not telling me?"

Americans in particular like to see levels of modesty and humility couching the declarative sentences of those with lots of self confidence - that can be a tiresome way to go through life. As stated earlier, if AndrewS had started with his longer explanation of his skills and goals the question would not have been a problem. But should it have been a problem anyway? Since when do we have to read into "how hard can it be?" some level of clueless arrogance. Take people as they present themselves and let their character come out over time. Assume good intent until you can't, and the world is a better place.

1pollyannacentaur

Pete Serotta
11-06-2010, 12:13 PM
Action was taken by me and me only so any fallout is not a fault of the other moderators. I could not fix things with AndrewS so I took action


I hate doing this, but certain things do not pass....going after some MAJOR contributors and experts (David Kirk, PREZ, as well as many others, who are the life blood and heart of the forum is a NO!!!!. I tried to work with AndrewS on communications but had no success.

So ID is banned.... blame me. :crap: :crap: PETE

1centaur
11-06-2010, 12:19 PM
Well I think that's a pity. I think Dave was wrong on this one. AndrewS's threads have been consistently provocative...of thought, even when communication style did not jibe with the way of the forum.

skijoring
11-06-2010, 12:22 PM
Dave Kirk rocks. My first custom frame will be from him. :beer:

ergott
11-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Action was taken by me and me only so any fallout is not a fault of the other moderators. I could not fix things with AndrewS so I took action


I hate doing this, but certain things do not pass....going after some MAJOR contributors and experts (David Kirk, PREZ, as well as many others, who are the life blood and heart of the forum is a NO!!!!. I tried to work with AndrewS on communications but had no success.

So ID is banned.... blame me. :crap: :crap: PETE

I don't think Kirk needs anyone fighting his battles. The guy is all class and almost as good with they keyboard as he is with the torch;-) In fact, having read all the posts I don't think there is any battle.

It sounds like the matter is dead and some positive discussion could follow if allowed.

My only suggestion to Andrew would be to be a little more humble in the original post. After that, I'm disappointed with the bandwagon jumping, pile-on that followed.

Momma told you that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. :no:

firerescuefin
11-06-2010, 12:26 PM
Cent...this post did not take place in a vacuum. When you offend someone accidentally,typically you apologize, not go on the offensive.....again and again

jlwdm
11-06-2010, 12:28 PM
Well I think that's a pity. I think Dave was wrong on this one. AndrewS's threads have been consistently provocative...of thought, even when communication style did not jibe with the way of the forum.


He has some knowledge but he thinks he knows everything about everything and attacks anyone who disagrees with him. He has no internet communication skills.

He did this at a lesser level early in the year and left for 6 months straight and then came back and went crazy. His style brings out the worst in others. I do not respond to any of his posts. I start to and then and I pause and delete them.

It is a shame because he has some excellent knowledge. I often wonder if he is so argumentative in person.

Jeff

c-record
11-06-2010, 12:30 PM
How hard could it be?

I'm thinking I might want to make my own airplane. I don't know much about making airplanes but how hard could it be?

Dave

Passenger Warning: This aircraft is amateur-built and does not comply with
Federal safety regulations for standard aircraft.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/passgrwarn.php

I'd love to put one of these stickers on something just to make people worry, even change it to say bicycle.

I like everyone, I really have liked the two bikes Dave built for me while working at the big S. :banana:

Dekonick
11-06-2010, 12:42 PM
What is wrong with building a frame? Sometimes it is more about learning than becoming a master. No one here will bash anyone for painting with oil paints - or will they? Regardless, I doubt anything I paint will ever resemble a masterpiece. Attempting to paint, on the other hand, enhances my personal appreciation of a true master.

I know that Bob, when he built his frame, never expected to have a special lifetime bike. What he wanted to do was learn what was involved and thus be better able to understand bikes.

Learn everything you can - it just makes you a better person.

:beer:

Pete Serotta
11-06-2010, 12:53 PM
Ids were removed

but the AndrewS was breaking a lot of glass without so much value add.

That is my opinion and my action. He is free to start another ID or to even say privately that we can come to some agreements on "general" items in the forum manners.

If this was his facebook or youtube I would have said nothing... AND this is the last that I will say in public on the ID.

It can also be unbanned at a later time.

Action was taken by me and me only so any fallout is not a fault of the other moderators. I could not fix things with AndrewS so I took action


I hate doing this, but certain things do not pass....going after some MAJOR contributors and experts, as well as many others, who are the life blood and heart of the forum is a NO!!!!. I tried to work with AndrewS on communications but had no success.

So ID is banned.... blame me. :crap: :crap: PETE

1centaur
11-06-2010, 01:32 PM
Cent...this post did not take place in a vacuum. When you offend someone accidentally,typically you apologize, not go on the offensive.....again and again

I know what you and jlwdm are saying. While I don't think the offense was real in this thread, one can choose to be passive or the opposite in the face of criticism. Lots of people have learned to do the former and lots of people choose to do the latter. Hard to say which is more wise, because the pusher tends to get the upper hand but be left with a worse reputation. AndrewS reliably pushed back, did not acquiesce that criticisms against him were valid, and did so with force. We have been conditioned to view that as offensive though perhaps it is strong defense. Where I think there's an issue is tossing out the initial "provocation" and then pouncing on the attackers, which is what triggered the troll allegations. If one knows that one will attack that hard against criticism, perhaps there should be a greater effort to head it off in the first place. All in all, AndrewS was one of the more interesting posters in recent months, to the point that I would tend to open up threads he started.

David Kirk
11-06-2010, 01:34 PM
FWIW - I don't know Andrew S in real life or virtually and have no ill will toward him and did not feel like I was having a battle with him in any way.

I did bristle at his dismissive tone in his first post and responded in a sarcastic way. I should have thought better of that. And at the same time my offer to Andrew to be a resource was/is sincere.

Let's all go for a ride now on bikes that we or others made.

Dave

davidlee
11-06-2010, 01:35 PM
I was so glad this thread was coming around. Hopefully AndrewS sorts it out with Pete so he can come back to contribute.
Obviously a well rounded chap.
xo
d

richpur
11-06-2010, 01:36 PM
It seems like this thread inspired some less than tactful comments on all sides and was finally headed for constructive territory where everyone might benefit from the knowledge of others. Didn't seem like silencing any participants was called for. :beer:

Polyglot
11-06-2010, 01:40 PM
Hey,

I'm sorry if my tone came off as scornful. If it did maybe it was because I was reacting to your tone.........in your initial post you came off as dismissive to me.

If we set that aside and start over here is what I think - I think if the person wanting to build their own first frame without personal guidance/instruction has a good head on their shoulders, strong hand skills a lot of time and even more patience then there is a strong likelihood that you will end up with a usable bike. It sounds as if you are determined and that you have a plan and that is 90% of the battle.

Now the other side of this. In my 30+ years in the bike biz and 20+ years working as a pro builder I've seen countless folks come along who wanted to teach themselves to build. I was one of those people. I thought that the concept of what needs to be done is really pretty simple and while it may not be easy I, as a self-professed smart guy, should have no trouble doing the task. I had the Talbot book and the Paterick manual and a bike shop boss who bought a few simple jigs that would be more than good enough so I was ready to go. Or at least I thought I was. The most simple tasks were difficult for me. Just holding onto the tube properly so I could file a miter into it wasn't at all like it looked in the book. So, in my case, I didn't really learn anything of real value until I started working at Serotta. This was of course pre-internet and it was much harder to get info and see photos of real work and now things should be much easier.

Now if I was a bit skeptical about your initial post it might be because you are the 1,000,006th guy that has said what you said........ and so far I have yet to meet the guy who ended up with a rideable bike. I'm not saying it can't happen or hasn't happened, but I am saying that I've never seen it happen. It was unfair of me to lump you in with the other 1,000,005 guys and you may indeed be the guy that shows me that it can be done. In fact I hope you are.

So if I were to give any advice it would be to take Mr. Fattic's course. It will save you countless hours of fumbling around in the dark looking at photos on the internet and wondering what they mean. Folks like Doug know how to get the ideas across and can anticipate what you are thinking and the mistakes you might make.

If you think that I can be a help don't hesitate to get in touch and I will advise you as best I can.

As for your suggestion that I become an ambassador for the trade I'd like to think that I am and have been for a few decades. I personally have taught countless folks to become builders, both in person and in the virtual world, and a few of these guys have gone on to being pro builders of the highest order. I constantly answer questions by email and have people from all over pose their questions to me. Sometimes the answer is 'use less heat' and other times the answer is 'you might want to rethink your idea of building a frame for yourself' and I feel that being a good ambassador to the profession requires that I be honest.

Let me know if you need my help. I'll be here.

Dave

This is what I had expected to be the reason behind the harsh first comment from Dave. When you get approached as much as does Dave, you get a bit dubious about anybody actually following through with their first unsupported build and coming out with a workable project. I personally know of hundreds of uncompleted home-built frames... The wise use of the resources available today do make a successful end project much easier today than when either Dave or I first lit a torch. I realized very quickly that building one's own frames, while perhaps very fulfilling, was utterly unproductive for your average layman without the expensive jigs and other tooling. Counting all the time spent on my builds, I did not even earn half of minimum wage. Had I budgeted my time at minimum wage, I could have easily bought a frame from a premier builder.

maxdog
11-06-2010, 01:42 PM
[QUOTE=richpur]It seems like this thread inspired some less than tactful comments on all sides and was finally headed for constructive territory where everyone might benefit from the knowledge of others. Didn't seem like silencing any participants was called for. :beer:[/QUOTE

i second that emotion!!!

bobswire
11-06-2010, 01:46 PM
It seems like this thread inspired some less than tactful comments on all sides and was finally headed for constructive territory where everyone might benefit from the knowledge of others. Didn't seem like silencing any participants was called for. :beer:

Obviously you haven't followed Andrews M.O.
Not to stir the pot but this is typical Andrew, first being arrogant and dismissive then acting the victim followed a by humble "who me" when called out.
Too bad since he seems to be very knowledgeable and intelligent without having to be such drama queen.
This is my last word on the subject , I only responded in defense of Petes "correct actions". IMO.

BCS
11-06-2010, 01:59 PM
Why the bold face type?
It seems like this thread inspired some less than tactful comments on all sides and was finally headed for constructive territory where everyone might benefit from the knowledge of others. Didn't seem like silencing any participants was called for. :beer:

Louis
11-06-2010, 02:23 PM
Obviously you haven't followed Andrews M.O.
Not to stir the pot but this is typical Andrew, first being arrogant and dismissive then acting the victim followed a by humble "who me" when called out.
Too bad since he seems to be very knowledgeable and intelligent without having to be such drama queen.
This is my last word on the subject , I only responded in defense of Petes "correct actions". IMO.

Re: We've seen it all before - I fully agree.

You have to take this thread in the context of countless others with Andrew that followed the very same pattern. Without the history behind the OP's previously demonstrated behavior this thread goes in a completely different direction.

Louis

rugbysecondrow
11-06-2010, 02:25 PM
Obviously you haven't followed Andrews M.O.
Not to stir the pot but this is typical Andrew, first being arrogant and dismissive then acting the victim followed a by humble "who me" when called out.
Too bad since he seems to be very knowledgeable and intelligent without having to be such drama queen.
This is my last word on the subject , I only responded in defense of Petes "correct actions". IMO.
100% correct. He has a pattern and plays the victim well. He is no martyr, he was very purposeful in his writing, make no mistake of that. There is enough evidence to substantiate this.

cadence90
11-06-2010, 02:32 PM
I’m sorry to read that AndrewS has apparently been banned.

However, as has been pointed out ad infinitum here, his statements and attitude were not confined to this particular thread but rather had begun to constitute a not altogether graceful history, imho.

The OP was inelegantly worded, consciously or not, and some of the subsequent reactions (my own included) replied in kind but generally in good-natured jest, I thought, not really vicious attacks.

I mean, if someone who has never played basketball says, “You know, I’d like to play some ball; I’ve seen Kobe play and it doesn’t seem that hard.”, one is probably going to get ribbed for that. Now, if one said instead, “You know, I’d like to play some ball; I’ve seen the Knicks play and it doesn’t seem that hard.”, well, they’d be 100% correct! :p

However, it was (as usual) the subsequent posts by AndrewS that, as previously, revealed a less naïve and more cynical, argumentative, oppositional stance, unfortunately.

If one is going to attempt to build a frame, and comes to Serotta Forum to ask advice, that’s all well and good. At that point, however, one should also be able to accept that they are addressing a community which includes a lot of real-world experience, be a bit humble about it, maybe take a class first, etc., rather than list one’s arm-long resume, react in complete and unbridled anger at anyone who doesn’t enthusiastically state how easy it would be, and then go on to insult the Forum in general and call ~ 12,060 of 12,069 registered members as “...idiots. I mean, really dumb.”; “...assinine...”[sic] ; “...mouth breathers...” with “...pie holes...”, and “...dim whit[s] ...” [sic]; etc.

I’m no framebuilder, but I’m pretty certain that a livid, fuming, trembling-with-anger hand does not a good braze make....

saab2000
11-06-2010, 02:49 PM
I’m no framebuilder, but I’m pretty certain that a livid, fuming, trembling-with-anger hand does not a good braze make....

Nor does it make a good Navy pilot who claims to have made carrier landings.

richpur
11-06-2010, 03:17 PM
No hidden meaning to the bold type, just easier to read. :beer:

davidlee
11-06-2010, 03:34 PM
I didnt know of the past postings with Andy.
It all makes more sense now.
Great day for a ride however!! :beer:
xo
d

RPS
11-06-2010, 04:07 PM
Nor does it make a good Navy pilot who claims to have made carrier landings.
In fairness to AndrewS, I recall him saying he flew helicopters, which are also considered aircraft. And navy ships aren’t necessarily carriers.

And, as a Navy pilot, I've landed an aircraft on more ships, day and night, than most of you have ever seen in your lives.

chuckroast
11-06-2010, 04:41 PM
I hope everyone who could ride today did, including brother Andrew.

I also hope he returns with a different ID and attitude. I welcome his knowledge and takes on bike subjects, but not if he's going to be a chore to read.

etu
11-06-2010, 05:00 PM
I have noticed communication over the internet requires more careful choice of words. I've enjoyed this forum because of the friendly and civil tone that is the norm. Negative comments seemed to said without much malice and "combatants" usually seem more than ready to laugh at ones own's folly. In this regard, AndrewS mannerisms was a stark contrast with the rest of this forum. So I agree with Serotta Pete.

rwsaunders
11-06-2010, 06:12 PM
I picked up a book titled "Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction: A Manual for the First Time Builder" last year on Amazon. After reading the book for a bit, I validated that fact that the craft is beyond my skills as a hobbyist. It's still an interesting read...the author is Marc-Andre R. Chimonas, published in 2009.

cnighbor1
11-06-2010, 07:13 PM
I got lugs, tubes, misc. items off eBay. My thought was to cut tubes to fit lugs than take it all to a local frame builder for brazing. That to be is the difficult part. has i had no frame jigs or brazing skill. Than i would clean up frame and have it painted If i liked it i would get some more lugs and using cut off ends from last frame partice brazing. If good at it than perhaps do the complete frame
For the lugs I got I filed them to a nicer curved profile before handing tubes (uncut) and them to Paul Taylor to finish for me. I got a 590th Paramount gold Plated fork new from eBay to use also.
For photos ask <cnighbor1@comcast.net>
Charles

swt
11-06-2010, 09:10 PM
The guy trolled this board at least five times in the last few weeks. Pretty average trolling by Internet standards at that. Pete did the right thing.

oliver1850
11-06-2010, 09:23 PM
I didnt know of the past postings with Andy.
It all makes more sense now.
Great day for a ride however!! :beer:
xo
d

It was a pretty nice day for a ride, hope some of you took advantage of it. :beer:

bobswire
11-06-2010, 09:36 PM
It was a pretty nice day for a ride, hope some of you took advantage of it. :beer:

As a matter of fact today after posting on this thread earlier today I took a shakedown ride on my new tubeless DA tubeless wheels.
The ride is bar none the sweetest, smoothest carefree ride on 23mm tires
I've ever experienced.
As fast as any tube or sew up I've ever rode while soaking up road inflictions,like riding on a cloud ( slight exaggeration but only slight).
Nothing else to say,I've only taken one 16mi ride but it was enough to convince me of the superiority of tubeless. IMO.
I may end up converting my clincher wheels to tubeless using the Stan method.
These DA 7850 SL are the sweetest things next to pumpkin pie with a dab or whipped cream I've ever tried.
I rode them without sealant and will keep them that way and will only use sealant on clinchers that I'll adapt.
BTW made my home brew sealant using liquid latex, windshield fluid,Slime and water. It's supposed to me less toxic then some retail products.
I'll test it on my mountain rims first.

OH and no more pinch flats!!!! Yippee,had three a couple of weeks ago. :banana:

dancinkozmo
11-07-2010, 07:10 AM
...hey bob, what tires you using with those tubeless wheels ?

TJM
11-07-2010, 01:43 PM
Richard Talbot's book, something like "Designing and building a bicycle frameset" published in the 1980's is an excellent and fairly complete description of the process. You may find a used copy on Amazon or the like. I recall it listed suppliers (many of which could be gone by now). I believe there are suppliers of things such as investment cast lugs and tube set still out there somewhere.

Quite a bit of work but it may be worth the effort if only to appreciate the amount of work and craftsmanship that goes into building a frameset.

Good luck

TJM

TJM
11-07-2010, 02:33 PM
As a pilot for the past 35 years, I have flown a number of homebuilt aircraft, some "kit built" some "scratch built". Most of these aircraft were built by non-professionals, some were as close to perfect constructs as I have ever seen. Some better than production aircraft. Clearly a labor of love. In my humble opinion there are safe homebuilt aircraft and no doubt safe "one-off" framesets. As with airplanes, you have to be careful and patient.

Would I fly and aircraft of my own construction? Yes, it would be built correctly.

TJM

bobswire
11-07-2010, 02:37 PM
...hey bob, what tires you using with those tubeless wheels ?

I'm using the Hutchinson Fusion 3 tubeless.

http://i53.tinypic.com/63rj7r.jpg

RPS
11-07-2010, 03:11 PM
come on, dave. make your own space shuttle. go big or go home. ;)

sadly, in my business, almost every client thinks they can build their own ad. how hard can it be?

i think there's an important distinction when you "craft" almost anything. at the most basic level, the question is: do the pieces fit together and do they achieve their function? that is one challenge. and my guess is many people who try to build their own (BLANK) are out to see if they can build a functioning (BLANK). and doing this is, indeed, rewarding.

but here, to me, is the rub. the distance between a "craft" and a "craftsman/woman" is enormous. the distance between function and beauty is equally enormous.

we can all write a sentence. a sentence that functions as a communication. but how many of us can write the last few paragraphs of "the great gatsby"?
I agree that much depends on whether the builder’s interest is in creating something functional versus something many will see as a work of art. Our personal expectations on function versus aesthetics will undoubtedly determine success to a great degree. Someone else’s success might be my failure or vice versa.

From my perspective it is illogical to assume that a man can’t build his first functional bicycle frame when so many frame builders also had to have built their first. Besides, I know well that guys in different industries routinely build all kinds of “new” machines and gadgets that are far more complicated than a bicycle frame. I’m referring to machines that haven’t been done a million times before – brand new ideas that there are no instructions for.

On any project it’s a good idea to consider that beyond a lot of desire to build something “new” we’ll likely need a lot of space to work, lots of tools, lots of time to go slow and maybe do things over again when not right, and lots of money to buy extra tools, materials, etc… since sometimes we really don’t know ahead of time what we are getting into or what can go wrong. On the other hand I usually assume that even if I don’t get it right initially I’ll eventually get better at it. And improving at almost anything can also be of value.

Pete Serotta
11-07-2010, 03:19 PM
There are lots of years and frames that go into a learning experience. Please keep that in mind. Over time you might be able to build a competitive frame but the first one will be the first which is a challenge far beyond learning from the WEB or a book....

It is quite a feat of bravery and excitement to want to and to build your first frame but keep in mind it is you first.

When I needed brain surgery a few month ago, I researched the background and the recommendations of all. I did not want someone who just passed the boards. I even get the more experienced mechanics to work on my bike. Yeah I do some of the wrenching but those who know me know that has limits....


I truly hope your first build is wonderful and meets all your desires.

But I assure you and bet many beers, that the top tier builders in the industry have hundreds of frames behind them and they even did apprentice work for "masters" And yes many are now masters today because of their skills, devotion to cycling, and years of working in cycling and frame construction.

RPS
11-07-2010, 03:20 PM
Anyone built their own frame?
Not in the context of your question (i.e. – a standard bicycle frame) because I normally have little desire to build what I can buy for next to nothing compared to what I’d invest doing it myself; but I have built “other” frames which suggest to me that what you suggest is very doable for a guy with some skills and common sense. The following are three examples of projects involving the fabrication of “other types” of frames I’ve built without any real problems:

1) As a teenager I built a rail dune buggy on the cheap. I bent, cut, mitered, and fit every single tube. I also cut and shortened the VW frame including building jigs to maintain alignment after cutting the backbone in two. I could have welded it myself but asked my father and godfather for help to make sure it was welded “right”. The finished product wasn’t “perfect” but for years it was a blast to drive. For me it was perfect enough.

2) About 20 years ago I built a front wheel drive recumbent bike as an experiment. I wasn’t meant to be pretty or a finished product – and it wasn’t. I did ride it around to learn how the pedaling action affected the steering. I then rebuilt it with a different drive system and tested it again for comparison. The purpose and the fun were not at all in the fabrication or whether it looked nice -- even how it functioned was secondary to what I wanted to learn from the test rides.

3) A few years back I wanted a cross between an X-plorer and a TransVan, but since such a thing doesn’t exist I built one for myself. I designed and fabricated my own sub-frame, cut out parts of the original that were in the way, and assembled the components to allow me to modify the floor – an area twice as large as either an X-plorer or TransVan. The welds may not be beautiful by professional standards but I’ve been driving it for over 4 years and 40,000 miles without any problems at all – including once pulling a 6,000 pound trailer out west in the mountains. And yes, with family onboard.

My point is that normal guys can often fabricate or build more than what they may first think if only they don’t talk themselves out of it; or let others talk them out of trying. If you really want to do it I’d build my first bicycle frame whether it turns out to be easy or hard; perfect or not. Unlike the three examples above which I completed without instructions of any kind there are plenty of how-to instructions to help you.

I wish you luck going for it if that’s what you really want. With space, tools, time, and money we can make a lot of things work to our own satisfaction. Whether others think it’s a masterpiece is beside the point in my opinion.

gdw
11-07-2010, 04:12 PM
"My point is that normal guys can often fabricate or build more than what they may first think if only they don’t talk themselves out of it; or let others talk them out of trying. If you really want to do it I’d build my first bicycle frame whether it turns out to be easy or hard; perfect or not. "

+1 Frame building, like many home projects, isn't rocket science and a usable model can be manufactured by most anyone with commonsense, patience, and the will to try.

chuckroast
11-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Show us a picture of your Trans-splorer. Or is it Ex-port?

Sounds cool, I'd like to see it.

bobswire
11-07-2010, 04:59 PM
The first and only bike I built was such a resounding success I decided not to build another. How do you improve on perfection? ;)
http://i55.tinypic.com/651iit.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/30skf45.jpg

shiftyfixedgear
11-07-2010, 06:38 PM
Does the UCI allow wood bikes with full disc wheels like that ?

RPS
11-07-2010, 09:09 PM
Show us a picture of your Trans-splorer. Or is it Ex-port?

Sounds cool, I'd like to see it.
On the outside it looks just like a standard van which was a major goal so I can park it at home. Unlike the Xplorer vans which had a very small and narrow step well (about 4 square feet at most) alongside the driveshaft in combination with a minor raised roof (added about 4-inches) to achieve 6-feet of head room, I only needed 5’-8” so I didn’t need a raised roof at all. Maintaining the factory roof also makes it garageable, safer, and shouldn’t ever leak.

Also unlike the Xplorer I wanted the step well in the back like the early TransVans but much bigger. However, because I wanted a Ford van which has body-on-frame construction I was told it couldn’t be done – something about Ford not wanting anyone cutting through the frame and warranty issues. :rolleyes: Both the Xplorer and TransVans were based on Dodge unitized vans which are easier to modify, but to me Dodge vans looked much older in design compared to Fords, and their reliability wasn’t as good either.

The cool thing about doing anything truly custom is that you can do it any way you want, not what makes sense to others. I know it would have been easier, cheaper, and probably more practical to have installed a raised roof like everyone else but that’s not what I wanted. I wanted a regular looking van, low roof for garaging, lower drag, lower center of gravity, etc… I also wanted a very open feeling for its size so windows are at eye level whether sitting or standing.

By the way, the dual outboard receivers I incorporated are used to haul bikes or to carry a HD cargo tray. With two mounts a tray doesn’t rock and is much stronger. While driving I normally place nice bikes inside anyway but beaters normally ride outside.

We’ve enjoyed it for short camping and travel trips when willing to rough it, and for longer trips we can pull a trailer – which we’ve only had to do a couple of times.

Louis
11-07-2010, 09:31 PM
The first and only bike I built was such a resounding success I decided not to build another. How do you improve on perfection? ;)

But how well does it ...

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/6_lg.jpg