Top tube replacement, steel frame

[filthyd]

I bought a 54 cm Independent Fabrications Steel Crown Jewel the other day with a dented top tube.

I sent pictures to IF and they said the top tube could be cut out and another replacement tube welded back on. Does anyone have any experience with this?

They wanted $800 to do this and to repaint the entire frame. Anyone know a builder or machine shop that could do this cheaper (using the same steel, Reynolds 853)?

Any help is appreciated.

[filthyd]

Also, does anyone know more abuot the type of steel in the crown jewel?

Are some tubes true temper and others reynolds 853? or is it something the person chooses when they have it built?

http://www.ifbikes.com/OurBikes/Road/Steel_Crown_Jewel/

thanks!

[filthyd]

I bought a 54 cm Independent Fabrications Steel Crown Jewel the other day with a dented top tube.

I sent pictures to IF and they said the top tube could be cut out and another replacement tube welded back on. Does anyone have any experience with this?

They wanted $800 to do this and to repaint the entire frame. Anyone know a builder or machine shop that could do this cheaper (using the same steel, Reynolds 853)?

Any help is appreciated.

[filthyd]

Also, does anyone know more abuot the type of steel in the crown jewel?

Are some tubes true temper and others reynolds 853? or is it something the person chooses when they have it built?

http://www.ifbikes.com/OurBikes/Road/Steel_Crown_Jewel/

thanks!

[old fat man]

you can probably find a less expensive one man shop to do the job for you but honestly, $800, if it includes the repainting is quite fair given the amount of time required for such a job.

consider, most repaints cost about $400-$500 so another $300-$400 to carefully remove a tube, cut a new one, and carefully weld it in place is not a horrible deal.

[David Kirk]

$800 with a full repaint is a very fair price and it will be done right, with the proper tube, by the guys who built it in the first place. I know $800 is a good bit of change but it will be worth it.

dave

[oliver1850]

you might PM Mr.President. He's an IF guy, would know the value of the frame in repaired and repainted condition, and have some opinion on whether it's worth doing.

[bike22]

if it's just a tt dent, no need to worry about it.
cover it with a sticker and forget about it.

[charliedid]

Ride it!

[AndrewS]

As everything is custom by IF, the tube choice probably varies by size and intended rider weight, rather than just by model.

A frame builder who is familiar with the different tubes currently in vogue may be able to identify the tube, once removed, by the wall thickness and butt lengths. Or, just let them put whatever tube they think would be appropriate for your body weight/style. None of the nicer tubesets out right now are going to make a good Crown Jewel become a bad one when their top tube is substituted, so I'd be pretty fine with any good tube of the right outside diameter. 853, S3, OX Platinum, and Spirit are all going to be light tubes similar to what's probably in there now.

Too bad paintless dent removal isn't offered for bicycles.

[pbjbike]

I think J.P. Weigle has a process that uses high pressure oil inside the tube to pop the dent out. I'd go for that over a new tube, if it's not too deep. He's a wiz with paint and may be able to just paint the top tube after the repair.

[sean]

Have you considered rolling it out? This can be done with steel and these blocks bicycle research makes. Most, if not all of the dent should come out. But it does mess with the paint. However, it's way cheaper than having the tube replaced.

You can have the dent rolled, if there is anything left, there is a special type of bondo that is metal based and can be powder coated. Fill, sand and away you go.

[filthyd]

Thanks for the replies. These are all good ideas. I'm gonna look into each tonight and respond!

[filthyd]

Also, sorry for posting this here. I have posted a duplicate in "General Discussion".

[Keith A]

Also, sorry for posting this here. I have posted a duplicate in "General Discussion".The two message threads have now become one :)

[Lifelover]

Post pics here as well.

I'm in the camp of just riding it. It is my impression that a small TT dent will not present a problem. Especially with steel.

[eddief]

i actually did that once on my first travel bike. the imperfection, even though I could no longer see it, still bugged me. but i did avoid the cost of the real fix.

[chismog]

Consult with a painter first- my guess is you'll just need a repaint, and probably not even the entire frame. Any competent painter can deal with a small top tube dent. The only time you really need a tube replacement is when the dent is severe and/or the tube is actually bent. Painters will either use a bondo type filler, or sometimes a bit of brass (sort of like a fillet braze). Good luck!

[eddief]

http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=1

[jvp]

I just bought this '78 Raleigh Pro, I fretted about the ding in the top tube for a day or so, but it rides great and I'm over it now!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/jvpro/raleighpro7.jpg

[Bob Ross]

you can probably find a less expensive one man shop to do the job for you

...or maybe not. Friend of mine was in need of a similar repair on his older Italian steel road bike, and he called over two dozen different frame builders just trying to find one who would agree to take on the work, much less do it inexpensively.

His conclusion: This whole "steel frames are easier to repair" line that folks keep touting is a red herring!

[bfd]

<His conclusion: This whole "steel frames are easier to repair" line that folks keep touting is a red herring!>

Yes, repairing a frame is do-able, it just not going to be cheap. Then again, Calfee repairs carbon and supposedly this famous photo of a broken Calfee only cost $250 to repair:

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-016/BrokenCalfee.jpg

Good Luck!

[John H.]

Be careful about who you choose for your repair. I once had a nice Steve Rex and I dented the toptube in a crash.
Had another builder (won't name names- but he is well respected) put a new toptube in (because he was close- did it quickly and did not cost a ton). I think he ovalized the seattube.
Anyway, bike never rode the same post repair. I hated it.

[AndrewS]

The low cost of repairing steel frames is associated with traditional lugged frames and brazing. Tig'd frames are a bit different animal. I really don't understand why people choose tig'd steel road bikes at all when the design is very conventional.

The other half of this is the repaint cost, which is pretty ridiculous. IF prides themselves on their paint, so they can charge what they want for it. But if you're satisfied with a single color, a $100 powdercoat can be awful nice.

If there is indeed a way to remove the dent, that would be the way I'd lean.

[John H.]

Actually a re-paint and bondo is a decent way to fix it as well. A good painter can do this if dent is not too deep.

[David Kirk]

The low cost of repairing steel frames is associated with traditional lugged frames and brazing. Tig'd frames are a bit different animal. I really don't understand why people choose tig'd steel road bikes at all when the design is very conventional.

The other half of this is the repaint cost, which is pretty ridiculous. IF prides themselves on their paint, so they can charge what they want for it. But if you're satisfied with a single color, a $100 powdercoat can be awful nice.

If there is indeed a way to remove the dent, that would be the way I'd lean.

Repairing a tigged frame is a no brainer. It's super easy and clean and less work than doing a lugged repair and can be done in much less time.

FWIW.

dave

[eddief]

about something.

[sean]

http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=1

I just order a small can of stuff called Lab-Metal. Similar product. Apparently it's high temperature tested and can stand up to powder coating.

Going to try it on a frame I'm getting powder coated that has a small DT ding. I'll report back.

http://www.alvinproducts.com/Content.asp?id=20

[eddief]

and they have suggested that Lab Metal probably would not work with the temps they use and the blasting processes. And I would love to hear your positive outcome.

[Peter P.]

It's the stingy man that pays the most.

Have IF do it. Not only do they have to replace the tube, they have to replace the cable guides as well. The paint job includes stripping the original paint. And don't forget decals; they cost, too. I see no reason why you wouldn't fully dress an IF in original decals i.e., leave the frame bare.

If you are seeking a cheaper alternative, then buyer beware, but I facilitated the repair of a friend's steel frame with Eric Baar of Ground Up Designs (http://groundupdesigns.com/). My friend's top tube was dented and if I understood Eric correctly, his method was to drill a hole through the top tube opposite the dent, the use a punch to tap out the dent, then brazed over the hole or plug it with a nail head, I think. The remaining imperfections in the dent were bondo'd over. The frame was then powdercoated by Spectrum Powder Works (http://www.spectrumpowderworks.com/) .

My friend was extremely satisfied and the price was under $500.

[AngryScientist]

here's a thought, depending on where the dent is, maybe have S&S couplers put on the bike?? the cost would be roughly the same i think, and you'd have a rockin travel bike??

[cnighbor1]

any good frame builder can just roll out the dent with a special jig
Just messes up paint a bit
Charles

[phillybill]

That seems like a lot to me... I ride a IF cross and a new fork .... they quoted me 400.00 .... Looking elsewhere for that. I know in phlia, Bilenky would probably have a better price.

[taz-t]

here's a thought, depending on where the dent is, maybe have S&S couplers put on the bike?? the cost would be roughly the same i think, and you'd have a rockin travel bike??

This was the route I chose. Sachs with a dent/crease in the downtube. Didn't affect the frame, but very unappealing aesthetically. Since the paint was not the best, I figured a coupling and full repaint by Bilenky was a reasonable option.

[phillybill]

This was the route I chose. Sachs with a dent/crease in the downtube. Didn't affect the frame, but very unappealing aesthetically. Since the paint was not the best, I figured a coupling and full repaint by Bilenky was a reasonable option.
Yeah... Steve does good and reasonable work... the couplers would be a great idea

[93legendti]

here's a thought, depending on where the dent is, maybe have S&S couplers put on the bike?? the cost would be roughly the same i think, and you'd have a rockin travel bike??
Damn, that was my suggestion.

Bilenky might me a cheaper option for a straight repair, but resale might suffer if IF doesn't do the repair.

[phillybill]

But why would he want to get rid of his IF ??????

[cp43]

Post pics here as well.

I'm in the camp of just riding it. It is my impression that a small TT dent will not present a problem. Especially with steel.


In some cases IF is also in this camp. A co-worker of mine dented the top tube on his IF Club Racer in a crash, probably 5 years ago now. He asked IF, and they said he could just keep riding it.

Obviously this depends on the size of the dent. If IF is recommending a repair in this case, I'd have them do it.

Chris

[bicyclego]

I rode my old Litespeed Capella, an aluminum frame, for years with a ding in the TT...nary a problem; If anything steel is more resilient.

[vqdriver]

here's a thought, depending on where the dent is, maybe have S&S couplers put on the bike?? the cost would be roughly the same i think, and you'd have a rockin travel bike??

that's a great idea.

[pbjbike]

here's a thought, depending on where the dent is, maybe have S&S couplers put on the bike?? the cost would be roughly the same i think, and you'd have a rockin travel bike??

I second or third on this! Coupled frame will be worth 1.5 X what it's worth now. :beer:

[oldpotatoe]

here's a thought, depending on where the dent is, maybe have S&S couplers put on the bike?? the cost would be roughly the same i think, and you'd have a rockin travel bike??

Don't forget the suitcase. Couplers, paint and suitcase is more than $800.

[Dekonick]

Don't forget the suitcase. Couplers, paint and suitcase is more than $800.

You don't have to buy the suitcase...

[jh_on_the_cape]

If the dent is creased, be more careful, it may fail there. If it is just pushed in and no crease or fold, it's fine. Put a sticker on it. Or fill with bondo and repaint.

But really, post a pic or take it to a frame builder instead of hacks like myself.

[Bob Ross]

I really don't understand why people choose tig'd steel road bikes at all when the design is very conventional.

Perhaps 'cuz the builder they want to work with happens to work in steel & TIG?

[AndrewS]

Perhaps 'cuz the builder they want to work with happens to work in steel & TIG?
And I'm wondering why that makes them a builder they want to work with. For me, it's a strike against for the reasons I mentioned.

I know everyone loves the "it's all good" attitude about bicycle choice, but there are compelling reasons to choose lugs over TIG, and this thread highlights one of them.

No one bothered to TIG frames until mountain bikes, because there weren't stock lugs to build the weird angles and diameters involved. But TIG is not a superior process, it's just another method - one that never improved the classic steel road frame.

[nahtnoj]

And I'm wondering why that makes them a builder they want to work with. For me, it's a strike against for the reasons I mentioned.

I know everyone loves the "it's all good" attitude about bicycle choice, but there are compelling reasons to choose lugs over TIG, and this thread highlights one of them.

No one bothered to TIG frames until mountain bikes, because there weren't stock lugs to build the weird angles and diameters involved. But TIG is not a superior process, it's just another method - one that never improved the classic steel road frame.

If you were right, it would be a strike against. But you are wrong.

TIG repair:

1. Cut out dented tube.
2. Clean up ST and HT.
3. Miter new tube.
4. Weld new tube.

Easy as pie. Have a nice weekend.

[rugbysecondrow]

And I'm wondering why that makes them a builder they want to work with. For me, it's a strike against for the reasons I mentioned.

I know everyone loves the "it's all good" attitude about bicycle choice, but there are compelling reasons to choose lugs over TIG, and this thread highlights one of them.

No one bothered to TIG frames until mountain bikes, because there weren't stock lugs to build the weird angles and diameters involved. But TIG is not a superior process, it's just another method - one that never improved the classic steel road frame.

I don't think this thread is one of them as evidenced by Dave Kirks response. In fact, I am not certain if there is a strong reason ( aside from personal preference) to choose one method over another.

I love my TIG Bedford frame, and it was nearly half the price of a lugged frame, that is a strong and compelling reason for me. Reading Waltworks blog, he has some other reasons to choose TIG.

[soulspinner]

I don't think this thread is one of them as evidenced by Dave Kirks response. In fact, I am not certain if there is a strong reason ( aside from personal preference) to choose one method over another.

I love my TIG Bedford frame, and it was nearly half the price of a lugged frame, that is a strong and compelling reason for me. Reading Waltworks blog, he has some other reasons to choose TIG.

+1- hey Id love a Bedford or Kirk lugged but dont have the $-the tig I can afford............thats a pretty good reason to choose tig

[eddief]

there is tig and then there is tig. look at the weld joints on a Soma or a Surly. They're fine...and bumpy. Look at the weld joints on my tigged Gunnar and they are nearly artistic. Then there is fillet and then there is lugged. In the eye of the beholder, in your wallet. Be at one with your addiction.

[AndrewS]

If you were right, it would be a strike against. But you are wrong.

TIG repair:

1. Cut out dented tube.
2. Clean up ST and HT.
3. Miter new tube.
4. Weld new tube.

Easy as ($800) pie. Have a nice weekend.
Did you miss the discussion about how much the repair cost is? Maybe:
1. Heat up joints and pull out dented tube.
2. Cut new tube.
3. Braze in new tube.
...is less much less expensive, maybe all frame repairs are now radically expensive. But $800 doesn't imply ease.

People prefer different methods, which is fine. I prefer lugs when possible for several reasons, some of which are fairly practical, like repairs. My choice doesn't have to be your choice, but I can have and state my preference without it being the end of the world.

[nahtnoj]

Did you miss the discussion about how much the repair cost is? Maybe:
1. Heat up joints and pull out dented tube.
2. Cut new tube.
3. Braze in new tube.
...is less much less expensive, maybe all frame repairs are now radically expensive. But $800 doesn't imply ease.

People prefer different methods, which is fine. I prefer lugs when possible for several reasons, some of which are fairly practical, like repairs. My choice doesn't have to be your choice, but I can have and state my preference without it being the end of the world.

I did not. The cost seems reasonable to me. I would estimate that 2/3 to 3/4 of the cost is paint.

Your lug repair scenario ignores all the finish work, potential damage to the lugs in the process, etc.

If you don't believe me, re-read post #26. From a guy who doesn't do TIG, BTW.

[AndrewS]

I did not. The cost seems reasonable to me. I would estimate that 2/3 to 3/4 of the cost is paint.

Your lug repair scenario ignores all the finish work, potential damage to the lugs in the process, etc.

If you don't believe me, re-read post #26. From a guy who doesn't do TIG, BTW.
Well, I guess lugged frames aren't repairable, after all.

I agree with David Kirk, an $800 factory repair on a $3000 frame is not out of line. Some people pay dealer shop prices for that kind of peace of mind with their cars for similar reasons. However, $800 is about the price of a Waterford made 853 frame, which includes all 8 tubes and paint, so maybe an off brand repair should cost some smaller fraction of that.

[Pete Serotta]

I do not know how this has gone down hill nor why I could not have turned it back into a constructive discussion among bike loving folks.

PETE :crap:


so I am closing it and hope all have a better time on the forum