Bye-bye Klein

[gasman]

I heard today that Trek is going to stop producing Klein bikes next year. Mr. Klein is going to start making wheels as his new project.
Klein bikes really changed after Trek bought them so it may be no great loss.

[Kevin]

The old Kleins were great. I agree the new Kleins are not so special. Too bad that Trek took another one down.

Kevin

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . Gary made enough when he sold out to Trek that he can do pretty much whatever he wants. It will be interesting to see what types of innovation--if any--he can bring to wheelmaking. He certainly came up with some innovative ideas for bikes in general. Some were brilliant, some just turned out to be goofy, but all were interesting.

BBDave

[CNY rider]

I had heard rumours the LeMond brand might have been headed for oblivion.

Does anyone else think they need to make room in their stable for an "Armstrong" brand next year? Can GL and Lance co-exist under one roof?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . much effort at all by Trek to clearly differentiate either Klein or LeMond from their own branded bikes. They both had some nice bikes, but there was never any doubt which brand was the “boss” . . .

Would people buy “Armstrong” bikes? H#ll, yes! That’s what Lance IS now--a brand, a corporation, a conglomerate. It would not surprise me at all if Trek lets the LeMond brand die and exploits their relationship with Lance. I also think Greg really, REALLY hurt himself as far as his legacy and his reputation with his widely publicized remarks--or were they accusations?--about Lance and doping. They came across as extremely petty and he should have known that. What an Eskimo Pie Brain . . .

BBDave

[Big Dan]

. . . much effort at all by Trek to clearly differentiate either Klein or LeMond from their own branded bikes. They both had some nice bikes, but there was never any doubt which brand was the “boss” . . .

Would people buy “Armstrong” bikes? H#ll, yes! That’s what Lance IS now--a brand, a corporation, a conglomerate. It would not surprise me at all if Trek lets the LeMond brand die and exploits their relationship with Lance. I also think Greg really, REALLY hurt himself as far as his legacy and his reputation with his widely publicized remarks--or were they accusations?--about Lance and doping. They came across as extremely petty and he should have known that. What an Eskimo Pie Brain . . .

BBDave
Sure BBD , Lemond didn't know what he was saying...
btw after what he said I bought 2 Lemond bikes...they are great.....

Hey any Tyler or Danilo Hondo updates?? :confused:

[coylifut]

A few years back, Trek's brand policy was evident to me. The Trek brand was carbon, Lemond - Ti and Steel and Klein - Aluminum.

I rode with a shop owner the other day who told me his Ti and Aluminum sales are way down and Carbon way up. That's what happens in mass market chanels.

[LegendRider]

I rode with a shop owner the other day who told me his Ti and Aluminum sales are way down and Carbon way up. That's what happens in mass market chanels.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying large manufacturers dictate what's popular? I'm not sure I agree - carbon is popular on its merits. All carbon builders of note are doing well whether it's Trek (large) or Parlee (small).

[GoJavs]

Eskimo what? BBD, please, if Greg LeMond never occurs, I doubt Lance ever does. Meanwhile, yeah, Armstrong-everything is a matter of time. Lance's ambition appears to be endless.

Re: Klein, what a shame that would be. The brand seemed to lose its way over the last few years. Those funky colors don't seem to age very well. I used to have a Klein in the late 90s. I also always lusted over those sweet Quantum Pros... I liked mine a lot (Stage Pro), but then I got bit by the steel bug again...



. . . much effort at all by Trek to clearly differentiate either Klein or LeMond from their own branded bikes. They both had some nice bikes, but there was never any doubt which brand was the “boss” . . .

Would people buy “Armstrong” bikes? H#ll, yes! That’s what Lance IS now--a brand, a corporation, a conglomerate. It would not surprise me at all if Trek lets the LeMond brand die and exploits their relationship with Lance. I also think Greg really, REALLY hurt himself as far as his legacy and his reputation with his widely publicized remarks--or were they accusations?--about Lance and doping. They came across as extremely petty and he should have known that. What an Eskimo Pie Brain . . .

BBDave

[coylifut]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying large manufacturers dictate what's popular? I'm not sure I agree - carbon is popular on its merits. All carbon builders of note are doing well whether it's Trek (large) or Parlee (small).

shop owner friend says the market wants carbon and it's getting carbon.

[BumbleBeeDave]

<< . . . if Greg LeMond never occurs, I doubt Lance ever does. >>

I don’t understand this . . . :confused:

And Dan . . . <<Lemond didn't know what he was saying...>>

I think LeMond knew very well what he was saying--and history may yet prove him right. He just didn’t think before he said it. Perhaps the two of you could start a club . . .

BBDave

[yim]

I won't buy a Trek bike.

[GoJavs]

You belittle LeMond by calling him an "eskimo pie brain".

So, I respond to you:

That "Eskimo Pie Brain" put competitive cycling on the map in the U.S. Without LeMond's TDF wins, who knows where the man from Austin would be! :confused:

Back to Klein - I thought when they started sponsoring Gerolsteiner and came out with that sweet light metallic blue model things were going to take off for them...Oh, well, too bad again....

BBD - if you want to discuss LeMond, let's do it through PMs. I don't really care to hijack this thread any further.





[QUOTE=BumbleBeeDave]<< . . . if Greg LeMond never occurs, I doubt Lance ever does. >>

I don’t understand this . . . :confused:

[jerk]

the new kleins are nice bikes too. if this is indeed the case, it is too bad. klein could have been spun off effectivly as a high-end custom aluminum/carbon made to measure operation....but the last person at trek who listened to the jerk made a stupid narrow bb time trial bike lance hated....but the jerk digresses.

[RABikes2]

I had heard rumours the LeMond brand might have been headed for oblivion.

I heard the same rumor; time will tell.

[bcm119]

Booooo. Klein will always have a special place in my heart. My Stage got me back into cycling.

[yeehawfactor]

i like kleins a lot, but outside of the palomino they are a hard sell. i think trek could do well to make them boutique custom.

[Dr. Doofus]

don't think the custom market would get too crazy about AL...and the increased production cost might make it a dead issue...thinking from an ex-floor guy perspective:

1) if you push the custom Klein, that suggests something is "wrong" about the design and fit of the Trek (parent brand which keeps your doors open)

2) if a shop already carries Serotta, Seven, Waterford, Calfee, or IF, they have their custom bases covered, and its hard to see how a Klein would offer a customer any real advantage over those products

3) Trek made their bed with Armstrong, and that changed the post-merger plans with Lemond and Klein. Dance with the gal that brung ya. Great bike riders who kind of make ripples in the mainstream media make for Ok mass-marketability (Lemond). Legends who make Tsunamis in the mainstream media make for great mass-marketability (Mr. 6 Tours).

4) The custom market isn't focused on racer-types (flexible 20-somethings are not the main demo for 2000.00 frames). Klein's focus has been in that niche since the Trek buyout (the Reve is a recent development). Going custom would require Klein to pay Climb-o to get off his three bikes and come up with a new image and marketing campaign.


maybe doof's right, maybe he's jacked....that's what the discussion is for

[BumbleBeeDave]

You are absolutely correct about Greg’s effect on American cycling. I just didn’t understand your phrasing. The sum of my comment was that he practiced extremely poor judgement in this particular case.

If Gary Klein were still at the helm of his company, I’m sure they would still be introducing innovative products. But as things stand, it would not surprise me at all if Trek DOES let Klein and LeMond die and come out with an “Armstrong” brand and put the Klein-LeMond company resources into that. It’s just too tempting marketing-wise.

BBDave

[Big Dan]

<< . . . if Greg LeMond never occurs, I doubt Lance ever does. >>

I don’t understand this . . . :confused:

And Dan . . . <<Lemond didn't know what he was saying...>>

I think LeMond knew very well what he was saying--and history may yet prove him right. He just didn’t think before he said it. Perhaps the two of you could start a club . . .

BBDave

BBD, Lemond was proved right already when he told Lance to stay away from the good Dr F...
anyways " this too shall pass" let's see what happens around the bicycle retail sector after Lance is gone......I'm ready for less yellow...if you know what I mean... :cool:

btw the Lemond fan club is still big.. :D

[BarryG]

the new kleins are nice bikes too.
Yeah, out of Klein/Trek/LeMond - the Klein is the only one I would consider buying for myself, partly for its sensible geometry and partly 'cause I think they're use of materials works in the newer bikes.

Barry

P.S. I just checked the '05 models and looks like Klein geometry is becoming TrekMondified and new bikes are squatter and longer - no longer resemble the '03 Klein QC Pro I rode and liked.

[Dr. Doofus]

Klein is redundant within the Trek structure now. Bill Bove and the good Senor might have moe and better things to say, but Klein's geo (except for the Reve) is very racer-focused, low HTs, tight f-c, and race-bike TTs, which make them hard sells for most recreational riders, and a racer would probably just buy a 2300 and save some cash....

I think BBD's suggestion makes sense -- put the Klein and Lemond resources into a high-end Armstrong brand. High end carbon, steel, Ti, and mixed materials -- perhaps some custom, if Trek worked out how to keep the maufacturing costs from eating into the profit margin too an unacceptable degree (you industry folk could give some real insight here...doof is just a guy who worked selling bikes for a total of nine months at two shops).

A custom Armstrong brand could make your local Trek dealer competitive with shops that had say, Seven or Serotta without having to establish ties to another company. The customs wouldn't be carbon, but they would have no problem selling the carbons that had slight differences from Treks if they had the Armstrong name on them....

If Lemond and Trek part ways, he'll find a way to keep his company going, probably reduce the size of the line and put himself out as a boutique, high-end operation using contract builders...like it was to start with...hey, if it works for his old teammate and his brother.... Who knows, maybe he'll drive a few blocks in Minneapolis and get some guy who posts here to make some frames for him...and then he'll get an eccentric professor involved and make some Froggie-style bikes....

All stupid speculation, but hey, that's what we outside-of-the-industry-know-nothings are all about.

[davids]

Klein's demise doesn't surprise me - The product line has been shrinking year after year, and any cachet the name had is long squandered. And Trek's Al road bikes seem to be pretty much the same as the Kleins. The only product they had going for them was the Palomino - I would buy a Palomino over the Maverick or Seven Duo without a second thought! Oh well.

Lemond, on the other hand, still seems to have good market share and a clearly defined identity, at least at the high end - Their "spine" bikes (the Carbon/Ti and Carbon/Steel) are unique and acclaimed. They could drop their cheaper Al bikes without a peep of protest, though.

[cs124]

snip...Lemond, on the other hand, still seems to have good market share and a clearly defined identity, at least at the high end - Their "spine" bikes (the Carbon/Ti and Carbon/Steel) are unique and acclaimed. They could drop their cheaper Al bikes without a peep of protest, though.

... agree, those cheap Lemonds are pretty forgettable, which makes the strategy my LBS is following seem rather strange. He is a Trek (and related brands) only dealer and in road bikes he stocks Trek carbon at the top end, Trek Al as mid range and Lemond Al as entry level, with Klein as a boutique/niche model. No spine bikes on display or for demo and pretty long lead time if you want to order one. Why? I dunno.

[cs124]

snip...don't think the custom market would get too crazy about AL...

From what I read here and what I see on the road I think you're right but I just don't understand why it should be that way. My next bike will, in all probability, have a custom made Aluminium frame (from a builder who has several current pros riding on re-painted bikes made by him).

[Dr. Doofus]

snip...

From what I read here and what I see on the road I think you're right but I just don't understand why it should be that way. My next bike will, in all probability, have a custom made Aluminium frame (from a builder who has several current pros riding on re-painted bikes made by him).


Because marketing is about perceptions.

Because big bike builders build to markets and their perceptions.

Because mediocre custom bike builders build to perceptions.

Because great custom bike builders build to their well and hard-learned knowledge of craftsmanship and quality, and choose the material they see as best for the task at hand, and for their hands. And they don't tend to sell a lot of frames to people who buy on perceptions.

[zap]

I've been hearing rumblings for over a year now.

Klein was having difficulties before Trek bought it. Trek tried a few things to keep the line going but the marketing just wasn't there.

The Klein Q Pro Carbon really is a great design with neat little details. It will be disappointing to see this design fad from the market.

If Trek does ditch Klein, maybe someone will be able to replicate the Q Pro Carbon design. It's just to good to let it fad away.

[sspielman]

I am not trying to be a curmudgeon, but I seriously doubt that Klein will be much missed. I see very few of them on the road, and the ones I see are often pre-Trek models. Like Schwinn, it is a company that lost its identity, and there is no longer a reason for it to exist. I must also admit that -like Schwinn- I never saw what the shouting was about anyway. In recent years, Klein's greatest claim to fame was providing bikes to Gerolsteiner....for whatever reason the team saw fit to equip Rebellin with a re-labelled Wilier...not exactly a glowing testimonial...

[chrisroph]

Greg stated his honest beliefs. Certainly it would have been better for him politically to keep his mouth shut and not state that he believed virtually every modern era pro cyclist was using some form of enhancement. If he had asked me, I would have recommended that he keep quiet. However, the events of the last several years provide support for his contentions. While I initially reacted negatively to his statements, I now think he is right and applaud him for his honesty and bravery. I'd buy a lemond way before an armstrong but its hard to get me off my eddys (although the new spectrum ti super has arrived and is under construction).

[BigDaddySmooth]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doofus]

If Lemond and Trek part ways, he'll find a way to keep his company going, probably reduce the size of the line and put himself out as a boutique, high-end operation using contract builders...like it was to start with...hey, if it works for his old teammate and his brother....

That would be a kicker...commission Della Santa to build Lemond frames.

[vaxn8r]

That would be a kicker...commission Della Santa to build Lemond frames.
I kind of doubt that would happen....though Lemond and Calfee had a thing going for about 200 frames in the early to mid 90's.

[Dr. Doofus]

Lemond tried that with the initial run of Lemonds...Della Santa couldn't make enough and, if doof recalls corrrectly, didn't really want to make that many anyway....

[purplegirl]

snip...
My next bike will, in all probability, have a custom made Aluminium frame (from a builder who has several current pros riding on re-painted bikes made by him).

So where will you get this custom Al frame? I have a 7-year-old Klein that I love, but I have the 7-yr-itch and want a new bike. Love the Al, but my LBS isn't keeping any Kleins on the floor, now, and the geo seems much different than my Quantum Race. I would LOVE to find a custom builder who works in Al..

[Bill Bove]

Purplegirl, first welcome to the forum, second, if you are looking for a custom aluminum bike look at Orbea. Built in Spain, custom sizing done at a small upcharge. Six to eight week lead. Great bikes.

It has been nearly impossible to get a Klein bike out of Waterloo for the last two years, the demise of the brand may not be in the future, it may have already begun. I hated their rear drop outs.

I hope LeMond doesn't get canned too, I'm selling their spine bikes very well.

Armstrong bikes? Maybe, but I would have thought that Trek and LA would have worked something out so that he raced his last year on his own label. Who knows what will happen next year, if LA franchises The Ride For The Roses and shows up in a couple of key cities pedeling an Armstrong I could see people looking for them. But if 90% of my Trek road bike sales are carbon, where is there room in Treks stable for a competing/market share destroying brand? Perhaps "Trek Bikes, Inspired By Lance Armstrong"?

One thing is for sure, next year is going to be a very interesting year, in both the sport and the business.

[CNY rider]

Bill I recently bought a 2004 Tete de Course frame off EBay and had it built up. I've only got about 120 miles on it so far and most of that has been spent getting used to the compact double I put on it.

I think the handling is clearly a little quicker (more squirrely?) than my Legend but I don't have much else of an impression yet. What kind of feedback are you getting from customers who have had theirs a while and put some miles on?

[vaxn8r]

So where will you get this custom Al frame? I have a 7-year-old Klein that I love, but I have the 7-yr-itch and want a new bike. Love the Al, but my LBS isn't keeping any Kleins on the floor, now, and the geo seems much different than my Quantum Race. I would LOVE to find a custom builder who works in Al..
If an AL race bike is what you are loking for, and you want Americano, then look no further than the Co-Motion Ristretto. You can get the same thing with Boar's head decals from Hampsten. It is a sweet bike. I wish I had one.

[zap]

Check these guys out too http://www.v2racing.com/

As Vax says, Comotion also makes a great bike and it's a great company. Would probably be my first choice.

I'd stay away from Orbea. One local team ordered a few and half of them broke in the first year. As a result, the bike shop droped the line.