hampsten or kish

[vqdriver]

given these two builders is there anything to sway me in either direction?
frame will be all-rounder ti, as in strada bianca or modified kish cross.

(yes i've considered our host, but i've already had serotta, and am just in the mood for something different this time. and yes, i know there's many other builders out there, but let's just keep the parameters of this thread with these two)

if you have any experience with either hampsten or kish please chime in.
if there's anything negative (and i don't expect this) you feel hesitant to post publicly, feel free to pm me.

[spartacus]

Does Kish make the frames in-house? I don't know, but Hampsten outsources most of his models to other builders (Moots for a titanium Strada Bianca), or at least he did, but perhaps he's changed tack. I know some frames are being made 'inside' now.

I remember watching Kish in a RAAM documentary from the early 1990s - jaw dropping stuff.

[ninjaman]

I've seen a Kish in person (at the top of River Road in Jersey, resting after hill repeats), it was some of the best welding/finishing work I've ever seen.

[Peter B]

<snip>

I remember watching Kish in a RAAM documentary from the early 1990s - jaw dropping stuff.


Jim Kish builds bicycles.
Rob Kish is a surveyor in Florida who's finished RAAM 19 times

[jlwdm]

I don't know, but Hampsten outsources most of his models to other builders (Moots for a titanium Strada Bianca), or at least he did, but perhaps he's changed tack. I know some frames are being made 'inside' now.



A post on VSalon a month or so ago indicated that most Hampstens are built in house.

Edit: searched for the post but could not find it so I PMd Steve.

Never owned one but I think Hampsten does a great job with the various all arounders.

Jeff

[spartacus]

Jim Kish builds bicycles.
Rob Kish is a surveyor in Florida who's finished RAAM 19 times

Not the same Kish? It's not a common name, and as night becomes day I'd assumed it was one in the same person. Still, the name triggered good memories of Rob Kish at RAAM, undiminished. :beer:

Peter, I'm still working on that shoe thing. German postal service :rolleyes:

[jlwdm]

Here is a post from VSalon by Steve Hampsten talking about the Strada Bianca:

just to interject my own two cents:

...brakes: the whole point behind us doing the strada bianca was that it's not a modified cyclocross bike - it's a modified road bike. cyclocross bikes are fine in their own ways but we wanted a bike that had dependable brakes that were easy to set up and adjust (calipers) and we wanted more road-like geometry than what a cross bike would provide - this mostly shows up in the lower bottom bracket and steeper HTA.

...

but i'm not against folks riding dirt roads on their cross bike - or any other bike for that matter. we simply approached this with the idea of "what would be the BEST bike to use riding gravel roads?". that this bike also happens to work well as a commuter and all-round road bike was not a huge surprise, nor were we overly surprised that the strada bianca did not make a terribly good cyclocross bike.



Different choices available for all-arounders.

Jeff

[spartacus]

Here is a post from VSalon by Steve Hampsten talking about the Strada Bianca:

just to interject my own two cents:

...brakes: the whole point behind us doing the strada bianca was that it's not a modified cyclocross bike - it's a modified road bike. cyclocross bikes are fine in their own ways but we wanted a bike that had dependable brakes that were easy to set up and adjust (calipers) and we wanted more road-like geometry than what a cross bike would provide - this mostly shows up in the lower bottom bracket and steeper HTA.

...

but i'm not against folks riding dirt roads on their cross bike - or any other bike for that matter. we simply approached this with the idea of "what would be the BEST bike to use riding gravel roads?". that this bike also happens to work well as a commuter and all-round road bike was not a huge surprise, nor were we overly surprised that the strada bianca did not make a terribly good cyclocross bike.



Different choices available for all-arounders.

Jeff

I like disc brakes.

[cadence90]

given these two builders is there anything to sway me in either direction?
frame will be all-rounder ti, as in strada bianca or modified kish cross.
<snip>
Since you specified ti, I would definitely say Jim Kish. Ti constitutes something like 80%-90% of Jim’s work. I think that proportion is far lower with a Hampsten, and most of that (at least in the past) was done out-of-house (but by very qualified builders).

Jim Kish has built 2 ti frames for me, so I’ve met him personally, talked with him a lot, and love his work. I too will one day purchase a ti “cross-muter” from him. He is considered one of the best ti builders in the US, and has also taught at least several other significant ti builders. He also builds ti frames occasionally for several well-known “steel only” builders. I like that he is a one-man shop, truly independent, and extremely approachable. He is very easy to work with, very efficient, pragmatic, fair and fast. I cannot recommend him enough.

Both are very good builders, but I truly believe that with Jim one gets years and years of hands-on experience. To me, that means a lot. Of course, I am biased, having never even seem a Hampsten in person while riding a Kish every day, but I think that for your specific purposes Jim is the guy.

Feel free to PM if you have specific questions. I have recommended Jim in the past to several people here, and all have been satisfied.

[spartacus]

Since you specified ti, I would definitely say Jim Kish. Ti constitutes something like 80%-90% of Jim’s work. I think that proportion is far lower with a Hampsten, and most of that (at least in the past) was done out-of-house (but by very qualified builders).

Jim Kish has built 2 ti frames for me, so I’ve met him personally, talked with him a lot, and love his work. I too will one day purchase a ti “cross-muter” from him. He is considered one of the best ti builders in the US, and has also taught at least several other significant ti builders. He also builds ti frames occasionally for several well-known “steel only” builders. I like that he is a one-man shop, truly independent, and extremely approachable. He is very easy to work with, very efficient, pragmatic, fair and fast. I cannot recommend him enough.

Both are very good builders, but I truly believe that with Jim one gets years and years of hands-on experience. To me, that means a lot. Of course, I am biased, having never even seem a Hampsten in person while riding a Kish every day, but I think that for your specific purposes Jim is the guy.

Feel free to PM if you have specific questions. I have recommended Jim in the past to several people here, and all have been satisfied.

He's selling his production Cross-muter frames $200 off at $1000 at the moment.

[ninjaman]

He's selling his production Cross-muter frames $200 off at $1000 at the moment.
Are those steel?

[cadence90]

He's selling his production Cross-muter frames $200 off at $1000 at the moment.
Are those steel?
Yes, steel, and only in black (which is nice, I have to say). I would prefer a ti version.

[Steve in SLO]

Jim Kish is local to me so I have had the opportunity to see his handiwork up close and all I can say is "stunning".
If I hadn't been 'Moot-ed up' before I saw his work, I would have had him build me one.

[Z3c]

My Hampsten Max is a great bike and Steve was great to work with.. All I know on the subject.

Scott

[PacNW2Ford]

I have two Hampstens and just got a Kish Crossmuter. Nothing but good things to say about both guys.

[john903]

I have an older Steel Hampsten Pro. It fits perfect and disapears under me when riding it, pure bliss. Steve is very professional and cordial to work with. I have never seen a "Kish", but no doubt he is a fine builder as well. It sounds like you have a tuff choice, but it isn't fun deciding? :)

[Pegoready]

Despite what everyone is saying, 99% of Hampsten's Ti frames are now built in-house. They are built by Max Kullaway of 333Fab (formerly of Rhygin, Merlin, and Seven). There's a lot of history and experience there.

Can't speak for Kish, but there's definitely something special that comes out of Steve Hampsten's ideas about how a bike should ride and look.

[Wilkinson4]

If looking at Ti, consider a Moots Mootour, Blacksheep Pennock, or go with Carl Strong. Or, if you want to really dive into it look up Matt Chester.

But, Jim makes sweet bikes and I'm sure he could make a gorgeous Ti all-rounder.

mIKE

[FlashUNC]

Nearly pulled the trigger on a Hampsten frame earlier this year. Didn't due to work/income related reasons.

But nothing but good things to say about Steve and the folks out there. When I'm in the market for a new frame, I'll definitely be calling them back up.

Take that for what its worth.

[riceburner]

I recently got an in-house fabricated Hampsten. Superb frame.

[veloduffer]

I had Jim build me a cross tourer this past winter - he was easy to work with and we used a combination of email and phone calls (I'm on the east coast and he is on the left coast). It has road geometry (incl 7cm bottom bracket drop) that is similar to my other road bikes. But it eyelets for racks and fenders and the rear and has tubing for light touring. I also spec'd it with cantilever studs, rather than long reach brakes. I've recently outfitted the front with the TRP CX-9 v-brakes for cross.

I'd highly recommend Jim as a builder.

Here's my photo and thread:

Kish tourer (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=70149&highlight=kish)

[John M]

The in house Hampsten frames built by Max Kullaway are as good as any. I've seen his welds up close and they are as nice and smooth as the ones on my Moots built Hampsten.

[soulspinner]

The Kish Ti bikes I have seen are beautifully done. He has a method of etching the forks and the look is cool(think hes doing Edge forks now). Like the fact hes a one man show and answers his phone, taught at UCI(maybe he still does) and does welding on a par with the best.

[River]

I have a Kish Ti cross with a mix of 6/4 and 3/2.5 tubing. Jim is great to work with and produces a well balanced frame. The wait is not too long either.
Matched with a Edge fork.. Butta!!! You can't go wrong.

[John M]

Based on the replies here, clearly two great choices (among others out there). Go with what moves you more emotionally and aesthetically.

[54ny77]

toss a coin and go with the outcome.

between those two builders, heads you win, tails you win.

:beer:

[phillybill]

I had Jim build me a cross tourer this past winter - he was easy to work with and we used a combination of email and phone calls (I'm on the east coast and he is on the left coast). It has road geometry (incl 7cm bottom bracket drop) that is similar to my other road bikes. But it eyelets for racks and fenders and the rear and has tubing for light touring. I also spec'd it with cantilever studs, rather than long reach brakes. I've recently outfitted the front with the TRP CX-9 v-brakes for cross.

I'd highly recommend Jim as a builder.

Here's my photo and thread:

Kish tourer (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=70149&highlight=kish)
Looks like a very nice ride.... is that close to the cyclocomuter in style?

[GuyGadois]

Kish is one cool guy. Pick up the phone and give him a call. He is a pleasure to talk with and will go over his building philosophy and detail out his suggestions.

GG

[veloduffer]

Looks like a very nice ride.... is that close to the cyclocomuter in style?

I would say yes. It has an extended head tube for raising the bars easily, geometry geared toward stability and tube stiffness for a bit of light loaded touring. It was meant for a do-it all type of bike, even racing if I want.

I was really happy with the way it turned out (welds, paint) and rides. I researched quite a bit and almost opted for a Moots Comooter. But Jim's reputation (and some solicited recommendations from owners) and the lower price (incl paint) convinced me. We spec'd the bikes a few different ways before settling on the design, and it was all quite easy by phone and email. The wait was short, about 6 or 7 weeks which included Xmas and Thanksgiving.

I'm currently transitioning the bike to a 10-speed Campy triple for hilly touring; the drivetrain in the pic is Athena 11 speed, which is now on my Fierte carbon. Also, I am getting a new wheel build - the wider Velocity A23 rim wheels built for it for a comfy tire profile.

[phillybill]

I would say yes. It has an extended head tube for raising the bars easily, geometry geared toward stability and tube stiffness for a bit of light loaded touring. It was meant for a do-it all type of bike, even racing if I want.

I was really happy with the way it turned out (welds, paint) and rides. I researched quite a bit and almost opted for a Moots Comooter. But Jim's reputation (and some solicited recommendations from owners) and the lower price (incl paint) convinced me. We spec'd the bikes a few different ways before settling on the design, and it was all quite easy by phone and email. The wait was short, about 6 or 7 weeks which included Xmas and Thanksgiving.

I'm currently transitioning the bike to a 10-speed Campy triple for hilly touring; the drivetrain in the pic is Athena 11 speed, which is now on my Fierte carbon. Also, I am getting a new wheel build - the wider Velocity A23 rim wheels built for it for a comfy tire profile.

I might have to look into that for a spring comutter.... got a rival 10speed group just sitting around waiting for a frame.

[cycling.james]

Love my Hampsten. Steve was great to work with. As already stated, they're building the vast majority of their frames in-house these days. Not that Kish would be a bad choice, just speaking as a happy Hampsten customer.

[veloduffer]

I think either one will build the bike of your choice with equal quality and you should not have any concerns. I recommend calling both and pick whichever builder you're most comfortable with.

Thank goodness you're not talking about steel. Then you could be overwhelmed with choices. :banana:

[DY123]

I like it when the name on the frame matches the name of the man holding the torch.

There's a subtle difference when it is your name on the down tube vs. your employer’s name.

Jim Kish = outstanding work.

[jlwdm]

Here is part of a PM I got from Steve Hampsten after I asked how many frames are being built in-house:

"Basically, we we have built 45 out of 48 frames in-house this year and I expect that number to go up next year. The focus here is on lugged and welded steel along with welded stainless and titanium; aluminum not so much; carbon not at all."

Jeff

[spartacus]

Here is part of a PM I got from Steve Hampsten after I asked how many frames are being built in-house:

"Basically, we we have built 45 out of 48 frames in-house this year and I expect that number to go up next year. The focus here is on lugged and welded steel along with welded stainless and titanium; aluminum not so much; carbon not at all."

Jeff

Is that the total volume Hampsten sells?

[rnhood]

I would go with Kish. He sees and understands the bike you want, and executes it accordingly - and with considerable craftsmanship. However, in the end I'm sure either of your prospective choices will make a great bike.