Wheels/Wheel Component Opinions?

[buldogge]

Hey guys... I'm thinking about building a set of wheels for my new project. I've read thru a few of the recent wheelbuild threads and I have a couple items I wanted to gather opinions on:

Rims: Velocity Aerohead or Kinlin XR-270 or ???
Hubs: Campy Centaur (Century Grey to match the gruppo I've assembled)
Miche Primato Road
Velocity Helios (decent finish match as well)/Formula RB-68, RB-210

Spokes: DT/etc. DB, brass nipples.

Alternatively, I have considered a complete Velocity Helios wheelset which hits all the marks and comes in just a few dollars over building myself...or under if I pay for LBS labor.

FWIW...I am a 6' 175-180# recreational rider and this is going on a 90's Batavus Pro (SLX steel frame).

Best sources for above items?
Opinions?

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

[false_Aest]

I just laced up XR-270s and have no complaints.

Found them for mega cheap on ebay (2 for 90 including s/h).

The only issue is a tiny hop at the valve hole on one of the rims.

[AndrewS]

I just built some nice Kinlin XR-200s. They seem like nice rims, and others report the same. Ebay member eljamoquio has good prices and combined shipping on the 200, 270 and 300 in silver and black, plus Revolution and Competition DT spokes and Formula hubs. I contacted him for enough for three wheelsets and he came up with an awesome price.

Given the relative weights, I might be inclined to go up a few grams and get the 300 over the 270, if I wasn't going to go super light with the 200.

If not Kinlins, I'd consider a set of the Velocity A23, Aerohead/Aerohead OC or (if you want to spend the big money ;) ) DT 465. The DT, being a low profile rim at 465 grams is probably a very conservative and durable wheel. I don't get the sense that any of the modern Mavics are really worthwhile.


I'd recommend the DT Rev spokes and alloy nipples with Comps and brass nipples on the drive side. Built up really nice. I'd recommend that spoke combination whether you use alloy nipples or not. Since I'm 145 lbs. I went 24/28, but on XR-270s or 300s I would have gone 20/24.

Do a search with my name to find a couple threads with wheel build advice from Ergott and others. I think, if you're mechanically inclined, build them yourself. You don't need a stand - just a good frame and fork with calipers that square up nicely.

[buldogge]

Thanx Guys...

I have a cheapo stand and am relatively mechanically inclined...I completely build my bikes, minus wheels, now.

Andrew...I actually just emailed eljamoquio today to see if he could get the Formula rear hub in Campy form. If he can, I think it will be those hubs + the Kinlins + DT spokes to make it easy...

Did he include nipples as well???

BTW...Your thread was one of the ones I alluded to in my original post.

TA
-Mark

[AndrewS]

No, he didn't include nipples - ask him about it. Brass DT nipples are pretty cheap. Silver alloy aren't too bad - anodized costs, though.

[false_Aest]

As per Ergott's suggestion:
DT Competition DS 3x
DT Revolution NDS and Front 2x.
anti-seize on the threads
grease on the nips.

(I know some people here dislike Ligero but he recommended the same)

As per local wheel builder's recommendation (and my recent discovery with alloy nips)
Brass nips.


Used the same seller on Ebay.

[buldogge]

Thanx f a...What did you use for hubs?

-Mark

As per Ergott's suggestion:
DT Competition DS 3x
DT Revolution NDS and Front 2x.
anti-seize on the threads
grease on the nips.

(I know some people here dislike Ligero but he recommended the same)

As per local wheel builder's recommendation (and my recent discovery with alloy nips)
Brass nips.


Used the same seller on Ebay.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey guys... I'm thinking about building a set of wheels for my new project. I've read thru a few of the recent wheelbuild threads and I have a couple items I wanted to gather opinions on:

Rims: Velocity Aerohead or Kinlin XR-270 or ???
Hubs: Campy Centaur (Century Grey to match the gruppo I've assembled)
Miche Primato Road
Velocity Helios (decent finish match as well)/Formula RB-68, RB-210

Spokes: DT/etc. DB, brass nipples.

Alternatively, I have considered a complete Velocity Helios wheelset which hits all the marks and comes in just a few dollars over building myself...or under if I pay for LBS labor.

FWIW...I am a 6' 175-180# recreational rider and this is going on a 90's Batavus Pro (SLX steel frame).

Best sources for above items?
Opinions?

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

Miche hubs, 32h Aerohead front and rear(OC rear) DT 14/15 spokes, laced 3 cross, brass nipps(alloy a bad idea for non eyeletted rims).
Another option are A23 rims..nice rims, built the same way.

[oldpotatoe]

As per Ergott's suggestion:
DT Competition DS 3x
DT Revolution NDS and Front 2x.
anti-seize on the threads
grease on the nips.

(I know some people here dislike Ligero but he recommended the same)

As per local wheel builder's recommendation (and my recent discovery with alloy nips)
Brass nips.


Used the same seller on Ebay.

Why on earth 32 2 cross rather than 3 cross..discussion group, gotta know.

[buldogge]

Hey op... Do you know a good source for the Miche hubs in the US...or would you suggest buying them at $88 shipped from Wiggle?

Also, the Miche are 460g/pr + skewers the Formula/Velocity Helios are 284g/pr.

Miche are $88/pr Formula/Velocity are $170.

Best supplier of Velocity rims...the A23 seems the way to go with only a 8g weight penalty, although you lose the OC rear!

Do you agree with a mix of DT comps and revs?

TA
-Mark

Miche hubs, 32h Aerohead front and rear(OC rear) DT 14/15 spokes, laced 3 cross, brass nipps(alloy a bad idea for non eyeletted rims).
Another option are A23 rims..nice rims, built the same way.

[buldogge]

Oh yeah...Any reason I can't go 24/28 at 180#???

-Mark

Miche hubs, 32h Aerohead front and rear(OC rear) DT 14/15 spokes, laced 3 cross, brass nipps(alloy a bad idea for non eyeletted rims).
Another option are A23 rims..nice rims, built the same way.

[brians647]

Miche hubs, 32h Aerohead front and rear(OC rear) DT 14/15 spokes, laced 3 cross, brass nipps(alloy a bad idea for non eyeletted rims).
Another option are A23 rims..nice rims, built the same way.

Why is that?

[AndrewS]

Why on earth 32 2 cross rather than 3 cross..discussion group, gotta know.
Why 3 instead of 2? What difference could it possibly make with a front wheel? Just because 32 spokes gives you up to 3x, that doesn't mean you have to.

2x is, if nothing else, a hair lighter.


I doubt Oldpotatoe is going to be recommending Revolution spokes or alloy nipples. He recommends tying, after all. ;)

Alloy on alloy with nipples and eyeletless rims is supposed to bind. As I used grease on that interface, I had no significant binding in 6 builds. But if it is a concern, you can get nipple washers that go between the two. Personally, I've never seen a problem I'd attribute to not having eyelets, and have seen more cracked eyeleted spoke holes than the reverse. If you're doing things right, it just doesn't seem to make that much of a difference, from what I've seen and built. But I haven't built as many wheels as Oldpotatoe OR Ergott, but they disagree on this as well.

Oh yeah...Any reason I can't go 24/28 at 180#??? Depends on the rim. That's probably pushing it with a 390 gram rim, just fine with something well into the 400s. The Aerohead or A23 should be fine, as long as tensions are reasonably high and even.

The A23 doesn't come in an OC version, but neither do any of the Kinlins, Mavics, DTs, etc. It's a nice option, but not a necessity. If I was using Aeroheads, I'd use and OC rear because it's there (and kinda cool), but OC rims are certainly not compulsorary. The A23 is also a cool concept - give it some consideration.

[buldogge]

OK... Rims will be either Velocity A23 or Kinlin XR-270. Also, I think the slight weight penalty of brass nips is a non-issue.

Opinions on these hubs:

Velocity Helios: http://www.bikemania.biz/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Velocity_Helios_Hub&CartID=2

Ambrosio Zenith:http://www.etailsport.com/cgi-bin/etail_details_new.pl?ambrosio||42962|28|

Miche Primato Road: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Miche_Primato_Pair_of_Road_Hubs/5360044316/

BTW...Anyone know a source for the Formula version of the Velocity Helios hubs...???

TA
-Mark

[oldpotatoe]

Hey op... Do you know a good source for the Miche hubs in the US...or would you suggest buying them at $88 shipped from Wiggle?

Also, the Miche are 460g/pr + skewers the Formula/Velocity Helios are 284g/pr.

Miche are $88/pr Formula/Velocity are $170.

Best supplier of Velocity rims...the A23 seems the way to go with only a 8g weight penalty, although you lose the OC rear!

Do you agree with a mix of DT comps and revs?

TA
-Mark

I sell Miche hubs as well as Velocity. Don't think Velocity are 284g per pair.

Just weighed them. Velociity 330, Miche 470..BUT rears about the same. Teeny bearings in front Velocity. On the bike bearing adjust on Miche..nice hubs. made in Italia. 32h only tho.

Miche are better hubs, more flashy.

I sell and build a lot of wheels with Velocity, Dt, Mavic rims...'bout 400 per year.

[oldpotatoe]

Why 3 instead of 2? What difference could it possibly make with a front wheel? Just because 32 spokes gives you up to 3x, that doesn't mean you have to.

2x is, if nothing else, a hair lighter.


I doubt Oldpotatoe is going to be recommending Revolution spokes or alloy nipples. He recommends tying, after all. ;)

Alloy on alloy with nipples and eyeletless rims is supposed to bind. As I used grease on that interface, I had no significant binding in 6 builds. But if it is a concern, you can get nipple washers that go between the two. Personally, I've never seen a problem I'd attribute to not having eyelets, and have seen more cracked eyeleted spoke holes than the reverse. If you're doing things right, it just doesn't seem to make that much of a difference, from what I've seen and built. But I haven't built as many wheels as Oldpotatoe OR Ergott, but they disagree on this as well.
Depends on the rim. That's probably pushing it with a 390 gram rim, just fine with something well into the 400s. The Aerohead or A23 should be fine, as long as tensions are reasonably high and even.

The A23 doesn't come in an OC version, but neither do any of the Kinlins, Mavics, DTs, etc. It's a nice option, but not a necessity. If I was using Aeroheads, I'd use and OC rear because it's there (and kinda cool), but OC rims are certainly not compulsorary. The A23 is also a cool concept - give it some consideration.


I build many wheels with Revs, front and NDS rear. Never build with alloy on non eyeleted rims cuz the spoke hole can and does cut the nipple causing it to fail.

32 3 cross, 2 cross does nothing, 3 cross is probably a stronger wheel than 2 cross..unless you tie and solder them....

[oldpotatoe]

Oh yeah...Any reason I can't go 24/28 at 180#???

-Mark

Not as reliable...12 spokes weigh about 90 grams on a 91000 gram 'package', stronger wheel...No reason to intentionally design and build a wheel that is less reliable than a 32h one to save 90 grams.

[buldogge]

Hey op... The Miche hubs are available in 28 and 36 as well (at least in Europe).
The Velocity Helios hubs are lighter than the regular Velocity Road hubs, I posted a link above.

If you want to pm me prices on any of the items I've listed I would certainly be interested in looking.

-Mark

I sell Miche hubs as well as Velocity. Don't think Velocity are 284g per pair.

Just weighed them. Velociity 330, Miche 470..BUT rears about the same. Teeny bearings in front Velocity. On the bike bearing adjust on Miche..nice hubs. made in Italia. 32h only tho.

Miche are better hubs, more flashy.

I sell and build a lot of wheels with Velocity, Dt, Mavic rims...'bout 400 per year.

[AndrewS]

Not as reliable...12 spokes weigh about 90 grams on a 91000 gram 'package', stronger wheel...No reason to intentionally design and build a wheel that is less reliable than a 32h one to save 90 grams.
I submit that the difference between a 15 pound and 25 pound bike is also largely meaningless if we are going to include the rider in the system weight. Straight guage tubing, 600 gram rims, solid spindles, steel axles, steel stems, bars and headsets are all far more "reliable" than the alternatives.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey op... The Miche hubs are available in 28 and 36 as well (at least in Europe).
The Velocity Helios hubs are lighter than the regular Velocity Road hubs, I posted a link above.

If you want to pm me prices on any of the items I've listed I would certainly be interested in looking.

-Mark

My only source of Miche is 32h only. Wish I could get 28 and 36 but I'm at the mercy of the one distributor(QBP).

[oldpotatoe]

I submit that the difference between a 15 pound and 25 pound bike is also largely meaningless if we are going to include the rider in the system weight. Straight guage tubing, 600 gram rims, solid spindles, steel axles, steel stems, bars and headsets are all far more "reliable" than the alternatives.

'Reliable' is a big word isn't it. BUT I think you know what I was getting at. This trend to make wheels just strong enough, saving small amounts of grams makes me nutz. 180 pound guy with 24/28 wheelset with light rims?
Sorry, not built by me, unless I tie and solder them.........

A gent came in and wanted me to build a rear disc wheel with 32 revolution spokes, on a MTB single speed disc wheel. I wouldn't do it and he was incredulous(180 pound guy).

BUT if I did and it went to hell quickly he would blame me, not his 'design'. Great wheelbuilding skills go only so far when choosing a poor design(light rim, too few spokes, thin spokes, 3 strikes you are out). IMHO, of course.

[buldogge]

Having said that...I guess you wouldn't use the 28s often unless the rider was lightweight...no???

Have you seen the Velocity/Formula hubs in person? How about the Velocity Helios wheels?

Opinions on those?

Also, have you used the Kinlin wheels to build as well as the Velocitys??

Pricing is on the side of the Miche hubs and the Kinlin rims, FWIW...$223 total cost in parts for the wheel build. Velocity hubs add $125. Velocity AH or A23 add $40...Thoughts?

TA
-Mark

My only source of Miche is 32h only. Wish I could get 28 and 36 but I'm at the mercy of the one distributor(QBP).

[AndrewS]

'Reliable' is a big word isn't it. BUT I think you know what I was getting at. This trend to make wheels just strong enough, saving small amounts of grams makes me nutz. 180 pound guy with 24/28 wheelset with light rims?
Sorry, not built by me, unless I tie and solder them.........

A gent came in and wanted me to build a rear disc wheel with 32 revolution spokes, on a MTB single speed disc wheel. I wouldn't do it and he was incredulous(180 pound guy).

BUT if I did and it went to hell quickly he would blame me, not his 'design'. Great wheelbuilding skills go only so far when choosing a poor design(light rim, too few spokes, thin spokes, 3 strikes you are out). IMHO, of course.
That's fair. I hadn't really considered someone at 180 "heavy", but I wasn't recommending the lightest rims, either. If 180 is too heavy for 24/28, who should be riding the 20/24s that are now so common? I guess every wheel builder has their limits. Being conservative is fine, as long as your customers are looking for conservative. It certainly doesn't hurt.

Buldogge, there are probably a lot of different answers for what is a minimum spoke count for your size, and ultimately you have to take those answers and plug them into your own knowledge of your riding style and how hard you are on gear.

I would encourage you to chose more crosses over less to garner a little extra shock absorbancy. 28 3x and 24 2x, for instance. You could also choose to go to 28/32, or even 24/32.

As far as hubs and all of this goes, you need to make up your mind how important wheel weight is to you. You may want to ask the eljamoquio how much he'd charge combined for hubs, spokes and rims - the price might make up your mind.

The problem with doing something like this is that you can buy 32 spoke Open Pro/Ultegra wheels on sale for less than $200, and pretty light Planet X aero B wheels are like $170 delivered. So, unless you are looking for a particular feature - like the A23 rim profile, you end up prioritizing weight to make the build worthwhile for the cost. But if you do build a darn light wheelset, you've saved many hundreds over a factory lightweight in the same weight class, like some Eastons. So pick your poison. Building for the sake of building is rewarding, but not cost effective at all price points. That's why I built my wheels light, but used off brand hubs.

[buldogge]

Hey Andrew...I have some wheels at my disposal...I have a set of Mirage/Open Pro/DTs sitting right here for cheapo wheels.

I really would llke to build a set.

Also, I am on Campy...so...cheap sets are a little less common.

eljamoquio hasn't gotten back to me, otherwise I would have asked him exactly that (assuming he could even get the Campy freehub version)! I think that would be a great route to go, if it would pan out...

The Miche hubs are a little heavier but would save $$$ obviously.

Velocity A23 are more $$$ still, and not necessary of course.

Does anyone have direct riding experience on the A23s???

TA
-Mark


That's fair. I hadn't really considered someone at 180 "heavy", but I wasn't recommending the lightest rims, either. If 180 is too heavy for 24/28, who should be riding the 20/24s that are now so common? I guess every wheel builder has their limits. Being conservative is fine, as long as your customers are looking for conservative. It certainly doesn't hurt.

Buldogge, there are probably a lot of different answers for what is a minimum spoke count for your size, and ultimately you have to take those answers and plug them into your own knowledge of your riding style and how hard you are on gear.

I would encourage you to chose more crosses over less to garner a little extra shock absorbancy. 28 3x and 24 2x, for instance. You could also choose to go to 28/32, or even 24/32.

As far as hubs and all of this goes, you need to make up your mind how important wheel weight is to you. You may want to ask the eljamoquio how much he'd charge combined for hubs, spokes and rims - the price might make up your mind.

The problem with doing something like this is that you can buy 32 spoke Open Pro/Ultegra wheels on sale for less than $200, and pretty light Planet X aero B wheels are like $170 delivered. So, unless you are looking for a particular feature - like the A23 rim profile, you end up prioritizing weight to make the build worthwhile for the cost. But if you do build a darn light wheelset, you've saved many hundreds over a factory lightweight in the same weight class, like some Eastons. So pick your poison. Building for the sake of building is rewarding, but not cost effective at all price points. That's why I built my wheels light, but used off brand hubs.

[AndrewS]

I had forgotten that they were for Campy! I used these, and they come in a Campy version, too: http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp

[buldogge]

These are actually pricier than the Miche...but...they are 140 grams lighter (about the same as Velocity Helios/Formula B68, B210).

I think if I decide that black hubs are OK, that I will trade the grams for the cost savings + Miche quality though.

-Mark

I had forgotten that they were for Campy! I used these, and they come in a Campy version, too: http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp

[ninjaman]

Have you considered the DT Swiss R1.1 or R1.2 rims?

[oldpotatoe]

Having said that...I guess you wouldn't use the 28s often unless the rider was lightweight...no???

Have you seen the Velocity/Formula hubs in person? How about the Velocity Helios wheels?

Opinions on those?

Also, have you used the Kinlin wheels to build as well as the Velocitys??

Pricing is on the side of the Miche hubs and the Kinlin rims, FWIW...$223 total cost in parts for the wheel build. Velocity hubs add $125. Velocity AH or A23 add $40...Thoughts?

TA
-Mark

Depends on the rim, 28h. Heavier rim-like DT 585, Velocity Deep V, sure for some riders.

I have built many Velocity based wheelsets, like the hubs, well made, inexpensive but really small bearings in the front.

Never seen a Velocity wheelset...since we don't sell wheelsouttaboxes.

Built a few Kinlin rims, 'feel' pretty soft when building, not surrised, pretty light.

I prefer Velocity rims, the A23 is nice but the width 'advantage' is overblown IMO. Lowering tire pressure in any tire, regardless if the rim is 20mm or 23mm does the same thing.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=AndrewS]That's fair. I hadn't really considered someone at 180 "heavy", but I wasn't recommending the lightest rims, either. If 180 is too heavy for 24/28, who should be riding the 20/24s that are now so common? I guess every wheel builder has their limits. Being conservative is fine, as long as your customers are looking for conservative. It certainly doesn't hurt.


The 20/24 are mostly carbon rims, very high strength to weight ratio, with very high $ to gram ratio also. I have built a 24/28 using DT 585 rims and Velocity Deep V. Rebuilt the crappy Alex rimmed wheel after they went south. Again, the design is the basic idea. 20/24, 24/28, etc as long as it is used in combo with the proper rim, spoke gauge, etc designed for the rider with a realization that even saving 200 grams(a HUGE amount when talking about wheels) is teeny when talking about that 91,000 or so gram 'package'. The only way most of us 'notices' a wheel is if something breaks, then you notice it in a big way.

[oldpotatoe]

Have you considered the DT Swiss R1.1 or R1.2 rims?

Now called DT 415(single eyelet), 465(double eyelet) and 585(o eyelet)..also their approximtae weights. REALLY nice rims altho limited drillings. Wish DT made a tubular rim...like the 465 only tubie.

http://www.dtswiss.com

[buldogge]

I still haven't ordered any parts for my wheel build...but...I did pick up a set of 32H Centaur silver hubs laced to Velocity Aerohead/OCs with DT Comps and brass nipples. 1k miles on them, very clean...$200.

Not too bad I think.

I was a little surprised when I got home and weighed the rear wheel (w/ Veloce cassette) against the Mirage/Open Pro rear (also w/ Veloce cassette) as the Mirage wheel was actually 40g lighter!???

Still plan on building a wheelset some time this winter though...Probably XR-270s or DT R 415s laced to Formula/Velocity Helios grey hubs, 24/28.

-Mark