Electronic shifting and the retrogrouch

[AndrewS]

Retrogrouchyness sets in when a person's perception of the utility, value and the difficulties of a technological advance leaves them wondering why? more than simply wondering. And clearly, electronic shifting can be an advance. The handfull of racers that demanded Mavic's system because it allowed shifting from different positions on aerodynamic gear is testament to the small advantages it affords.

However, electronic shifting offends the sensibilities of many for two reasons:

First, many of us love our bicycles as mechanical extensions of our athleticism. No matter how complex, bikes are still user serviceable mechanical devices that require only minor study to master their intracacies. Just as when we watch contrived sporting games in bad Sci-fi films with "light balls" or similar nonsense, bringing electronics into direct line of our sporting efforts brings an artificial pall to things. No longer did "I" miss the shift - my black box missed the shift: It's an unappealing intervention in the one part of our lives that isn't networked or blue tooth capable.

Second, these systems are not elegant. It would be one thing to introduce "electronic shifting" along with a sealed, chainless transmission system. But to have an electrical derailleur running the same pulley driven chain shifting system that's been around for nearly a century leaves the same impression as a an automated steam locomotive or jet powered Sopwith Camel. With the precise control of electronics, do we still need oily chains that sometimes fall off? Was there truly no way of making shifting more accessible through mechanical means? Did the smart mechanical engineers who came up indexing, STI, double pivot brakes, oversized hollow spindles and so much more just give up?

It is the opinion of some people, who then get called grouches, that some recent innovations are as much compromises as steps forward. Too small bearings to make room for an 11th(!) cog, fragile frames and components, grossly expensive consumables and decreased compatibility are all hard things to get excited about, when we all know that no one is going any faster or having a better time than they did in 1990.

I'm a crummy retrogrouch - I like threadless headsets, STI and wheels with too few spokes. But at the ripe old age of 38 I don't know if I'm becoming inflexible, or if I've just seen enough to be a good critic of what is useful vs. what is marketable.

[rice rocket]

I'll leave all the opinion stuff alone, but chains and cassettes are here to stay as long as there are hills to climb and weight is an issue.

[Ahneida Ride]

I agree with Andrew ...

But I tested Di2 at NAHBS and she sure is pretty.
It's Porsche PDK vs. 6 speed.

I'll take the 6 speed any day, just so long as I don't need to
squat 400 lbs to depress the clutch. It's just more interactive.
more engaging, more fun.

For me .... my 8 year old Campy 10 speed Record is MORE then
I'll ever need.

oh yea ... bring back the TA Zephyr ...

--------------
But if you are racing and 1 second counts, I could see the advantage. :D

[bike22]

Too small bearings to make room for an 11th(!) cog
that's not how 11 speed works.

[AndrewS]

that's not how 11 speed works.
Sorry, that was the impression I got from this thread, among others:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=79290&highlight=chris+king

[bike22]

Sorry, that was the impression I got from this thread, among others:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=79290&highlight=chris+king
the chris king free hub design isn't compatible with the size of the campy free hub splines- its never been compatible- this goes for campy 8, 9, 10, and 11 speed.

to make the switch from 10 speed to 11- the cassette cogs, cog spacing, and chain were all made smaller- essentially 11 cogs where there were 10 before-no bearings were changed, made smaller or whatever.
furthermore, 11 speed wasn't created to get smaller cassette cogs, rather an extra one.


skepticism is good, assumptions based on ignorance or misunderstandings is not.


also i sound like a 11 speed and/or campy fanboy- i'm neither- i own no campy components other than a low end friction group from the late 80s.

[AndrewS]

skepticism is good, assumptions based on ignorance or misunderstandings is not. Where do you get off being such a jerk? It was one line in an essay about something else. I'm fine with being corrected, but there's no reason to be rude after I already admitted to the factual error.

Go away.

[rustychain]

As to the electric shifting question. I have tried the old Mavic system and the Di2 system. My observation is that from just a functional standpoint it offers few practical advantages for a road bike. From an engineering point of view I think it's a failure. Let me explain. Campy went to 11 speed not to add an extra gear but to improve shift speed by placing cogs closer together. Shifting in the rear derailure of Di2 is actualy slower. Add the one shift at a time and it functionalymuch slower. The front derailure is perhaps slighty faster on th Di2 but in a well set up Campy not enough IMO to make ant practical advantage. Ergonomic of the Di2 shift levers are again IMO the worst of any Shamono levers in years but do serve to address one issue with the 7800 levers, rattling levers. Di2 weighs more and can be very expensive to repair. Some solenoid issues have also been reported on the SlowTwitch website. As cyclist we all love new gadgets and electric shifting in the Di2 certainly appeals as a novelty but after hearing all the praise for it I can see no practical advantages on a racing bike. That said if some find it wonderful and just love the sound as it shifts I am pleased for them to go with anything that keeps them cycling. I have heard some in the electric camp suggest automatic shifting options such as automatically shifting the front derailure for you to avoid cross chaining ( I presume). This I confess really rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps this technology would be better applied to non racing applications. Campy is now on the verge of releasing an electric group. I think it's a mistake not only for the reasons already stated but also a marketing point of view. I can only hope they come up with a version that adds functional and practical improvements. Please Campy if for some chance your listening retain the ability to dump gears!!!!

[allegretto]

Retrogrouchyness sets in when a person's perception of the utility, value and the difficulties of a technological advance leaves them wondering why? more than simply wondering. And clearly, electronic shifting can be an advance. The handfull of racers that demanded Mavic's system because it allowed shifting from different positions on aerodynamic gear is testament to the small advantages it affords.

However, electronic shifting offends the sensibilities of many for two reasons:

First, many of us love our bicycles as mechanical extensions of our athleticism. No matter how complex, bikes are still user serviceable mechanical devices that require only minor study to master their intracacies. Just as when we watch contrived sporting games in bad Sci-fi films with "light balls" or similar nonsense, bringing electronics into direct line of our sporting efforts brings an artificial pall to things. No longer did "I" miss the shift - my black box missed the shift: It's an unappealing intervention in the one part of our lives that isn't networked or blue tooth capable.

Second, these systems are not elegant. It would be one thing to introduce "electronic shifting" along with a sealed, chainless transmission system. But to have an electrical derailleur running the same pulley driven chain shifting system that's been around for nearly a century leaves the same impression as a an automated steam locomotive or jet powered Sopwith Camel. With the precise control of electronics, do we still need oily chains that sometimes fall off? Was there truly no way of making shifting more accessible through mechanical means? Did the smart mechanical engineers who came up indexing, STI, double pivot brakes, oversized hollow spindles and so much more just give up?

It is the opinion of some people, who then get called grouches, that some recent innovations are as much compromises as steps forward. Too small bearings to make room for an 11th(!) cog, fragile frames and components, grossly expensive consumables and decreased compatibility are all hard things to get excited about, when we all know that no one is going any faster or having a better time than they did in 1990.

I'm a crummy retrogrouch - I like threadless headsets, STI and wheels with too few spokes. But at the ripe old age of 38 I don't know if I'm becoming inflexible, or if I've just seen enough to be a good critic of what is useful vs. what is marketable.

I am sorry my first post on the other thread offended some.

Not to be confrontational but your two reasons cited above appear in direct opposition to each other. In the first you argue that it detracts from the simple. In the second you advance that it doesn't go far enough.

In any case, it's still you as the motor. The bike doesn't run itself. You just don't blow a chainring shift again. The argument about dumping gears would hold if someone can truly do it with such accuracy at a crticalmoment. But if I pop it three times in rapid succession, by God it jumps three cogs, up or down, every time.


?????

[dancinkozmo]

"Campy went to 11 speed not to add an extra gear but to improve shift speed by placing cogs closer together."
if you actually believe that ive got a bridge in brooklyn up for sale...interested ? :)
campy went to 11 for marketing and to differentiate themselves from shimano 10 speed.

[rugbysecondrow]

As a rider who skipped freewheels and dt shifters, my frame of reference starts with 9 speed sti. With that said, I think the means by which an rd or fd moves is inconsequential so long as it is a functional improvement. I don't like cables enough to say that they are better or worse than anything that might be electronic in the future, but it sounds like there is a good argument against the cost benefit of one of the current electronic systems. They seem expensive for what you get, but I could see that changing. I haven't used either system so I don't know whether they are or are not an improvent.


Anyway, the leap is already being made towards electronics on bikes, GPS devices, powertap etc, so mentally many folks are already there. For me, a bike is a blend of human and mechanical, an advantage provided by the latter with the power provided by the former. If you could blend electronic into the mix, you might be able to have something special, albeit different. Like hydro disc brakes on a mtb, I view electronic solutions as possible alternatives to the purely mechanical.

[Lifelover]

....skepticism is good, assumptions based on ignorance or misunderstandings is not.....


Where do you get off being such a jerk? It was one line in an essay about something else. I'm fine with being corrected, but there's no reason to be rude after I already admitted to the factual error.

Go away.

He wasn't being rude. Your assumptions are based on misunderstandings and a "lack of knowledge" (ignorance). He was being obvious but not rude.

[Bob Loblaw]

I'm a technological skeptic, which is a step before retro-grouch.

Since the mid-80's there have been several true technological advances, some improvements noticeable only on marketing copy, and at least one or two widely embraced technological steps backward.

For electronic shifting, the history has yet to be written. Personally, I think the only use for e-shifting would be on a bike like a time trial rig where there's an advantage to being able to shift (and maybe brake) from multiple hand positions. Its fate will depend largely on managing the buy-in price, since it's pretty much an all-or-nothing uprade (which is a departure for Shimano whose strength is cross-compatibility across years and product lines).

BL

[BCS]

It must be getting cold up North. I don't really understand the purpose of this thread right now. Di2 is old news. I am personally waiting for 12 speed.

[Dave]

The 11 cogs do take up a bit more room than the previous 10. The largest cog being attached to a carrier, was moved a little closer to the spokes - hence the spoke clearance problem with some non-Campy wheels, with "Campy compatible" cassette bodies. The smallest cog also projects a little more than before. That has created some cases of the chain touching the frame. I had no problems with Mavic, or Powertap hubs, although the powertap worked better with a shim behind the cassette. Without it, my RD could just barely reach the largest cog, with the limit screw back completely out.

[etu]

Andrew, we can start a support group!
I'll start making the picket signs, you buy the air plane tickets to Italy. :p

[johnnymossville]

Is walking to the market rather than jumping in the car retrogrouch? Is peddling a bicycle as a means of transportation rather than for recreation retrogrouch? Thomas Davenport built an electric car in 1835, is driving a Leaf retrogrouch?

just wondering. :)

[zap]

It must be getting cold up North. I don't really understand the purpose of this thread right now. Di2 is old news. I am personally waiting for 12 speed.

Agreed, 12 in '12.

One Thirty Five spacing too.

That will move a few more framesets.

[sg8357]

Thomas Davenport built an electric car in 1835, is driving a Leaf retrogrouch?

just wondering. :)

Di2 hacked to do half step + granny gearing and powered by a dynohub
is retrogrouch. Solar panels on top of leather trimmed tweed bags
is retrogrouch.

[BCS]

With a wide range cassette like a 9-30, you could run a single ring up front and get rid of the front derailer :D

[johnnymossville]

Di2 hacked to do half step + granny gearing and powered by a dynohub
is retrogrouch. Solar panels on top of leather trimmed tweed bags
is retrogrouch.

got a picture of that solar powered tweed bag?

[bobswire]

Andrew, my initial reaction is the same as yours when a newer "thing" comes to market to supplant the older version. 7 speed over 6 I thought was a gimmick, STI took me years to accept as well as clipless pedals.
Who knows years from now I may wonder how I ever survived without
Di2 (not). :beer:

[benb]

I'm not that old (33), and I'm a freakin software engineer so I love anything computerized. (E.x. I have 4 computers, an iphone, a droid, a kindle, multiple game consoles, a big network in the house, etc, etc..)

I'm young enough I never had a real road bike with DT shifters. I basically had a friction shift hybrid with a 2x5 drivetrain, and then I went directly to 9-speed when I got out of college and bought my first nice road bike.

And I occasionally use a GPS on my bike.

But I still have no desire to have my bike be dependent on electronics. I know they want us to spend $2k to re-outfit our bikes but as far as I'm concerned shifting was a solved problem and this is a solution looking for a problem.

I don't think I would have been into this 10 years ago either.

[jazznap]

Sorry, I must be in the minority but I'm looking forward to the time when Di2 becomes affordable. I've been riding and tinkering with bikes my whole life (I'm 42) and try as I might, I still can't properly adjust derailleur cables. Sure I can get them to function, but I'm looking to electronic shifting as a way to make it easier for my non-mechanically inclined self to just ride and not have to worry about adjustments. Hopefully brakes will come next, then we can get rid of all those archaic cables :cool:

[johnnymossville]

"Shifting? Shifting is for girly men. Give me a 53x13 and I'm happy" - Jens Voigt.

[benb]

I'll defer to people who have experience with Di2 but I find it hard to believe this system is going to be terribly friendly to mechanics who can't master mechanical drivetrains.

It's much more complicated, there is a lot more to go wrong.

I have a nightmare where they sell you a little computer that you plug in to diagnose which electronic component has failed... it will be just like cars.

[Shoeman]

I remember when they went from 5 cogs to 6 then 7 & 8. The old timers would say all you really need is 5 of the right cogs & you are set, everything else is just overlap. Thats progress or marketing however you want to pronounce it.

[Ti Designs]

It must be getting cold up North. I don't really understand the purpose of this thread right now. Di2 is old news. I am personally waiting for 12 speed.

Yeh, the fall gets here, people stop riding and look at bike stuff - just look at the active threads on this forum... I must be backwards, I start base mileage next month, endless hours on an old rusty fixed gear. I have noticed something about the nature of investing in bike parts. I run 9-speed, bought the component group on my road bike when 9-speed was the thing. Then came 10-speed, I looked at the cost of chains and cassettes and decided to invest in more 9-speed stuff. It got damn cheap as places were closing the stuff out and trying to clear inventory. I now have back-up parts for my back-up parts, and people were just handing me cassettes and chainrings. The something strange happened, the price shot up for new 9-speed parts, and they stopped making some. So, having sold some of the 9-speed stuff that I had to those who needed it, I'm finding that not only didn't I spend money on riding this year, but I made money!!!

I am a paid retro-grouch.

That said, I think y'all should rush out and buy Di2 for your road bikes, cross bikes, tandems and an extra set to display on the coffee table to show your non-cycling friends.

[vqdriver]

if someone made an internal 8sp hub like alfine, with a cassette body, you could run 80 speeds with no front shifting. yaaaay!!

[benb]

I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up at this time of year because it's about time to start replacing stuff if you've been riding all year..

[Ti Designs]

I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up at this time of year because it's about time to start replacing stuff if you've been riding all year..

They're shifters - who wears out shifters?

[AndrewS]

I think it came up because I decided to post it as a thread rather than in the Ci2 thread. Ci2 was just press-released - all the timing reason you need.

Not to be confrontational but your two reasons cited above appear in direct opposition to each other. In the first you argue that it detracts from the simple. In the second you advance that it doesn't go far enough.
They are two separate reasons I don't like the current i systems. They need not coordinate.

You could parse my post down to: If it's going to be mechanical and user serviceable, leave the 'trons out. And if you're going to a new system, go all the way to something clearly better and different.

I'm not a real retrogrouch. I just do a mental cost/benefit and wonder "do I need a system with a $100 chain tool?", "do I need batteries and a $1000 derailleur to make the chain move?" You become a RG when you speak these things out loud, and offend the masses that have already pluncked down the change, for change's sake.

[spacemen3]

Of course, I think electronic drivetrains are cool and I wish I could afford a try. Then again, developing muscle memory with your old friction downtube shifters is part of the sweet synergy between man and machine. I wouldn't want to lose that satisfaction.

[benb]

They're shifters - who wears out shifters?

I meant it's a likely time for people to replace chains, cassettes, cables, etc.. and so it's likely you start thinking about what components you're running.

But anyway, enjoy your 9-speed. I never really wore out any 9-speed shifters, but I was stupid and switched to 10-speed. I've worn out 2 sets of those so far. (Or they are just unreliable and "fail" after the warranty is up.)

My current set seem to be good though. :)

[torquer]

... but I'm looking to electronic shifting as a way to make it easier for my non-mechanically inclined self to just ride and not have to worry about adjustments...
I was looking forward to trying (someday, when they're more affordable) electric shifters myself, but as someone who remembers 5- and 6-speed freewheels, and fondly recalls the simplicity of set-up, ability to mix-n-match brands of components, yadda yadda yadda, I worry that e-shifting will be an all-or-nothing proposition, meaning you could be SOL at the side of the road with a software issue. Not to mention that every "adjustment" will require sending the component to a service center (if it even is servicable at all; few electronics are any longer.) Not sayin' Di2 isn't ready for prime time, just that being an early adopter carries a certain price, which I'm not quite ready to fork over just yet.

[djg21]

I was looking forward to trying (someday, when they're more affordable) electric shifters myself, but as someone who remembers 5- and 6-speed freewheels, and fondly recalls the simplicity of set-up, ability to mix-n-match brands of components, yadda yadda yadda, I worry that e-shifting will be an all-or-nothing proposition, meaning you could be SOL at the side of the road with a software issue. Not to mention that every "adjustment" will require sending the component to a service center (if it even is servicable at all; few electronics are any longer.) Not sayin' Di2 isn't ready for prime time, just that being an early adopter carries a certain price, which I'm not quite ready to fork over just yet.


At this point, I see the value more on a TT bike where it would be of benefit to shift without changing position. That being said, unless you are a pro, it doesn't seem cost effective. In 5-10 years, the stuff will trickle down and be available to all of us in the masses, at a realistic price.

[false_Aest]

uhm.



wait for it.

[roydyates]

... The something strange happened, the price shot up for new 9-speed parts, and they stopped making some. So, having sold some of the 9-speed stuff that I had to those who needed it, I'm finding that not only didn't I spend money on riding this year, but I made money!!!

I've been buying 9 speed because an an 11-34 mtb cassette is a good solution when my power/weight ratio is low but I want to climb (ideally spin) up steep hills.

It will be interesting to see if 9 speed prices go down with the recent sram 10 speed 11-32 and 11-36 (IIRC) gear.

[Hard Fit]

Personally, I look forward to electronic shifting. I find the left-hand shift difficult to do in one swipe or quickly. I think it also has the potential to introduce children to riding a "racing" bike. I imagine children with small hands just can't shift a normal shifter easily.

I rode down-tube shifters up to about 5 years ago. I feel brifters are a great leap forward.

[Bob Ross]

I'll defer to people who have experience with Di2 but I find it hard to believe this system is going to be terribly friendly to mechanics who can't master mechanical drivetrains.

It's much more complicated, there is a lot more to go wrong.

I don't feel Di2 is more complicated in the grand architectural sense. By eliminating cables they've reduced the number of moving parts, and reduced the number of opportunities for what I'll call "gray area" performance (i.e., when my drivetrain isn't shifting quite as crisply as I'd like it to, but not so badly that it's worth not riding to fix it). Electronic shifting should be a bit more Black & White; either it'll work, or it won't.

Now, I agree that if I'm 70 miles from home I'd rather ride a bike that isn't shifting quite as crisply as I'd like it to rather than one that has stopped shifting entirely.

But I think it's a mistake to assume that all emergency repairs (and repairers) need to follow the same paradigm as cyclists have historically. Just because you've mastered mechanical drivetrains doesn't mean you necessarily have an advantage when it comes to troubleshooting an electronic drivetrain. And vice-versa. Some folks may actually be more adept at troubleshooting electronic shifting systems than mechanical ones specifically because of this Black & White aspect.

Or, for that matter, specifically because it's electronic, period. Remember, there are kids entering college today who've never known a world without the internet. How soon before kids entering their first (or 50th) CRCA race have never known a world without electronic shifting?

[michael white]

I have friction shifters on two bikes, maybe three. I was always a retrogrouch but now I find it a little boring.

You will all embrace electric shifting just like y'all moved away from rotary phones, sometime back, and now have cells. You made that leap and survived. It'll be ok.

[palincss]

Just because you've mastered mechanical drivetrains doesn't mean you necessarily have an advantage when it comes to troubleshooting an electronic drivetrain. And vice-versa. Some folks may actually be more adept at troubleshooting electronic shifting systems than mechanical ones specifically because of this Black & White aspect.


But this is not an "electronic drivetrain," it's a mechanical drive train with some electronic shifting components: a hybrid system, in other words. Things can go wrong in either of the two systems.

[Bob Ross]

But this is not an "electronic drivetrain," it's a mechanical drive train with some electronic shifting components: a hybrid system, in other words. Things can go wrong in either of the two systems.

Right, I'm not denying that. But I know that for me personally -- and I'm someone who I'd characterize as "borderline inept at maintaining my current mechanical drivetrain" -- if I could completely eliminate cable stretch as a variable I'd improve my ability to tweak and/or troubleshoot my drivetrain by an order of magnitude.

[gdw]

The current generation of electronic shifting is the start of a move towards automatic electronic shifting which our lazy braindead culture will embrace.
The younger generation, who has grown up with all the wizzbang toys of the tech revolution, will love it as well as the mechanically inept and folks who need the latest and greatest toys in their collection. Is it a step forward... not really, just a step in a new direction.

[palincss]

Right, I'm not denying that. But I know that for me personally -- and I'm someone who I'd characterize as "borderline inept at maintaining my current mechanical drivetrain" -- if I could completely eliminate cable stretch as a variable I'd improve my ability to tweak and/or troubleshoot my drivetrain by an order of magnitude.

Basically you can do that right now. Cables haven't really stretched since the 1990s, when they changed the design for indexing, not anything like they used to back in the 1970s.

What you're calling "cable stretch" is, I think, most likely housing compression at the ferrule, if it isn't the beginning of fraying.

[Vancouverdave]

I'll call myself a tech skeptic, and say that electronic shifting needs two things: 1.Chip running it has to be smart enough to compensate for the effect of wear on components on shifting--it has to do what your brain and hand now combine to do in shifting a system as it wears.
2. Chain, cassette, derailleur pulleys and pivots all need to be made to wear much more slowly, so the wear degrades the quality of shifting performance less rapidly.

[Bob Ross]

What you're calling "cable stretch" is, I think, most likely housing compression at the ferrule, if it isn't the beginning of fraying.

Fine, I'm more than happy to amend my previous statement:
>>I know that for me personally -- and I'm someone who I'd characterize as "borderline inept at maintaining my current mechanical drivetrain" -- if I could completely eliminate housing compression at the ferrule as a variable I'd improve my ability to tweak and/or troubleshoot my drivetrain by an order of magnitude.<<

But my point still stands: Eliminate cables (by replacing them with wires that carry an electrical signal) and you remove one -- or two -- moving parts that can have a varying impact on performance as they wear, fray, compress, stretch, etc. Even if those electrical wires become intermittant the effect on performance remains Black or White...shifting won't get "sluggish" because there's a little bit less electricity flowing than optimal. It's either On or Off.

And for some people that's a paradigm that's easier to troubleshoot.

[palincss]

I'm not at all convinced that trying to decide whether it's in the chain and the derailleur or somewhere inside the electronic "black box" and then figuring out what to do about it is in any way easier than tweaking the cable adjustment barrel.

[Bob Ross]

I'm not at all convinced that trying to decide whether it's in the chain and the derailleur or somewhere inside the electronic "black box" and then figuring out what to do about it is in any way easier than tweaking the cable adjustment barrel.

Right...because you're accustomed to the traditional paradigm of bicycle repair. That doesn't mean it isn't any easier, just that it isn't (conceivably) any easier for you. For others, it may be different. Especially if those others don't have extensive experience (read: prejudice) with traditional all-mechanical drivetrains, and/or if they do have extensive experience with troubleshooting electronic solenoid-controlled mechanisms.

[russ46]

Enjoyed reading this thread. While I may be ready to tackle the world of electronic shifting in another year or so (if prices decline) I must admit that at this point in time I am not worthy. Presently, I'm still in awe of my Ultegra drivetrain which came on a used Serotta I bought about a year ago. My previous road bike was a 10 speed, which was when they counted every part on the bike that had teeth. The shifters were on the downtube and every shift was an adventure. Therefore please forgive me for feeling that I've been transported to the future and am still confused at times about where I'm going or where I've been in the whole gear selection process.

[Lifelover]

Electronic shifting and Carbon Fiber have the same thing in common.

They are not for everyone and maybe not even "needed", however they are an improvement.

[Elefantino]

Electronic shifting and Carbon Fiber have the same thing in common.

They are not for everyone and maybe not even "needed", however they are an improvement.
I'm not sure either is true. Well, certainly not the part about carbon fiber. It's only an improvement that's dependent on what you're trying to improve and for whom. There is, for example, cr*p carbon fiber, and carbon fiber that's drawn to be of little use except for sprinting pros with young, supple backs.

AFA electronic shifting, it makes it cooler, but after having ridden a Di2 bike I didn't think I was shifting any "better."

That said, if someone presented me with the opportunity to ride either Di2 or Ci2 (or Campotronic, or Electragnolo, or whatever), provided they were on my bikes, I would not turn them down.

Sometimes cool is ... :cool:

[allegretto]

AFA electronic shifting, it makes it cooler, but after having ridden a Di2 bike I didn't think I was shifting any "better."



honest; you can match a Di2 chainring shift? No one who I know who runs it thinks they can...

[Elefantino]

honest; you can match a Di2 chainring shift? No one who I know who runs it thinks they can...
I didn't say I wasn't shifting "smoother" with Di2. But ...

<snip>It's Porsche PDK vs. 6 speed. I'll take the 6 speed any day ... It's just more interactive. more engaging, more fun.
What AR says. I've driven a ZR6 both ways, and I like to mix gears myself. I'm not as microperfect as an automatic, but sometimes I like to think I shift better!

[rw229]

As far as I'm concerned, 1998 was the last year Porsche made a real car. Translate that to bikes as you wish. :)

[allegretto]

I didn't say I wasn't shifting "smoother" with Di2. But ...


What AR says. I've driven a ZR6 both ways, and I like to mix gears myself. I'm not as microperfect as an automatic, but sometimes I like to think I shift better!

what is a "ZR6"?

not trying to bust your balls here, just not sure what that is... if you mean "Z06" then that isn't quite correct. There is no "auto" Z06. But there are plenty of auto Vettes and do understand.

[allegretto]

As far as I'm concerned, 1998 was the last year Porsche made a real car. Translate that to bikes as you wish. :)


Have raced and street driven 964's, 993's and 997's.

We would heartily disagree on that point, but I do get it...