Lance/Livestrong article in Fast Company [Archive]

rwsaunders

10-25-2010, 12:42 AM

Good article, whether you care for him or not. This quote from the article sums it up..."In the sports world, he's a very polarizing figure," says Ulman. "In cancer, he's not."

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/150/can-livestrong-survive-lance.html

572cv

10-25-2010, 08:30 AM

Thanks for posting this link. Yes, a good article.

Dekonick

10-25-2010, 09:23 AM

Interesting read. I doubt anyone can detract from what LA has done for cancer. I hope the foundation remains a force to recon with. FWIW - the Livestrong foundation is run by Ulman - and I believe his brother is the County Executive in Howard County, MD.

cmg

10-25-2010, 10:21 AM

went to the event in Austin yesterday. Very well organized. hope it continues to do good work.

norcalbiker

10-25-2010, 11:21 AM

I for one will remember LA as a 7 times TDF winner. However, my wife will always remember him as a Cancer survivor and a founder of Livestrong Cancer Foundation since she is a cancer survivor herself.

Thanks for the link.

AndrewS

10-25-2010, 11:25 AM

I wonder how Hitler would have gone down in history if he had also cured cancer? ;)

sloji

10-25-2010, 11:33 AM

I wonder how Hitler would have gone down in history if he had also cured cancer? ;)

I want to vomit after reading your post.

AndrewS

10-25-2010, 11:49 AM

Relax. I was both making a joke and pointing out that lots of historic figures are both hated and loved, depending on who's telling the story.

Despite everything he did, the Saudi's dislike Lawrence of Arabia. We celebrate Lincoln, who regularly violated the Bill of Rights. Jefferson and slaves, Truman and Hiroshima, etc.

When the dust settles, LA may end up in history like a mafia boss that donates to charity - someone who used ill-gotten fame and fortune for good. Or he may end up with everyone turning a blind eye to the wrongs because of the good.

JMerring

10-25-2010, 11:52 AM

I want to vomit after reading your post.

it was a tad hyperbolic but does touch on an interesting and legitimate query about who la is, what he's done, what he may yet be proven to have done and how it all relates to what he has become.

rugbysecondrow

10-25-2010, 12:06 PM

it was a tad hyperbolic but does touch on an interesting and legitimate query about who la is, what he's done, what he may yet be proven to have done and how it all relates to what he has become.

Lets not try to legitimize what Andrew wrote, he obviously posted it for the sole purpose of being inflammatory.

Sure, Lance might have cheated in a sport, a game (little to no real world impact). He has raised millions for cancer research to help find a cure (very high real world impact)

game vs. real world....no comparison.

JMerring

10-25-2010, 12:15 PM

Lets not try to legitimize what Andrew wrote for the sole purpose of inflaming a thread.

Sure, Lance might have cheated in a sport, a game (little to no real world impact). He has raised millions for cancer research to help find a cure (very high real world impact)

game vs. real world....no comparison.

wasn't trying to inflame at all. i happen to agree with the query, that's all. he has profited very handsomely from his (er, alleged) cheating. as the article points out, the collateral damage a lance bringdown would have on his foundation (not to mention people for whom he has served as an inspiration) could be significant. the whole situation, paul, is both complicated and sad. we can recognize that and have a debate about it without getting inflamed, can't we? i also think you underestimate the impact the 'game' has had - but for it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

rugbysecondrow

10-25-2010, 12:25 PM

wasn't trying to inflame at all. i happen to agree with the query, that's all. he has profited very handsomely from his (er, alleged) cheating. as the article points out, the collateral damage a lance bringdown would have on his foundation (not to mention people for whom he has served as an inspiration) could be significant. the whole situation, paul, is both complicated and sad. we can recognize that and have a debate about it without getting inflamed, can't we? i also think you underestimate the impact the 'game' has had - but for it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I agree we can have a discussion, that is why I pointed out the purposeful flaming by Andrew regarding the Hitler statement. I don't think you are off point and I agree it is complicated to discuss because folks are entrenched in their positions. I do think it is important to separate the sports world (where people place false importance on events) and the real world. Sure the lines get blurred some, but whatever negative impact in the sports world pales in comparison to the real world issues many are dealing with and Lance has helped to further.

AndrewS

10-25-2010, 12:26 PM

I wasn't trying to be inflamatory. I think it is ridiculous how a sports star can create such emotional debate and polemic about his alleged activities - it's as if people were discussing an evil dictator. Hence, the chiding reference to Herr H. In the end, Lance's "crimes" are about enough to take him off the BBQ invite list, but not much more than that.

His public opinion case will, at least in part, be decided by his non-cycling activities. While bigger stars make bigger targets, you can also be assured that his charitable works will continue to garner him more protection than other pros who may have cheated less, but don't have rubber bracelets.

flickwet

10-25-2010, 12:54 PM

I wonder how Hitler would have gone down in history if he had also cured cancer? ;)
your posts have always had a rude trolling theme

BengeBoy

10-25-2010, 12:54 PM

I wasn't trying to be inflamatory..

I think you were.

At this point in history, I think any political/social argument that compares anyone, in any way, to Hitler is an inflammatory statement, even if only using a Hitler analogy in a very stretched way.

By refusing to admit this, you are showing disrespect to the otherwise reasonable adults who frequent this forum.

That's my opinion. Not trying to be inflammatory, by the way.

(I have major issues myself with Mr. Armstrong, but would not in any way compare him to genocidal maniacs.)

norcalbiker

10-25-2010, 12:57 PM

I wonder how Hitler would have gone down in history if he had also cured cancer? ;)

WOW!!!

Okay. :butt:

flickwet

10-25-2010, 01:05 PM

your posts have always had a rude trolling theme
but to read your hitler post just after reading the FastCompany article really made me angry that on the face of it someone who has done soo much good could reasonably compared to someone who caused so much incredible pain and suffering. On the face of it and I did not previously feel this way, I don't care if he used an effin motor, in the larger scheme of things of helping and IMPROVING his world around him the man has done a bit more than you or I

AndrewS

10-25-2010, 01:08 PM

I think you were.

At this point in history, I think any political/social argument that compares anyone, in any way, to Hitler is an inflammatory statement, even if only using a Hitler analogy in a very stretched way.

By refusing to admit this, you are showing disrespect to the otherwise reasonable adults who frequent this forum.

That's my opinion. Not trying to be inflammatory, by the way.

(I have major issues myself with Mr. Armstrong, but would not in any way compare him to genocidal maniacs.)
Actually, I was just giving the reasonable adults a little too much credit. Satire is not so alive and well around here.

Did you really think there was an serious comparison to genocidal maniacs intended? Would "I wonder how Jesus would be doing right now if he was accused of doping?" have played better with this audience, or does the satire problem still pop up?

I don't think you guys get that I don't care about LA and his problems. I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion, just like my post has. He has undoubtedly done good, but the raging public debate about him is lame.

Lifelover

10-25-2010, 02:11 PM

Great article. Thanks for posting. Unless LA end up doing hard time, any conviction related to some obscure cycling related doping will have little impact on Livestrong. Livestrong will be around for years to come and my grand kids won't have a clue who Lance is. Cycling is just a non-sport in our eyes.

The article also showed the lies that the Haters have been saying for years about Livestrong.org and Livestrong.com. It sounds like Lance makes no money of the product line. Nike and Livestrong make the money. The haters woudl have you think that LA makes it all.

veggieburger

10-25-2010, 02:22 PM

I think you were.

At this point in history, I think any political/social argument that compares anyone, in any way, to Hitler is an inflammatory statement, even if only using a Hitler analogy in a very stretched way.

By refusing to admit this, you are showing disrespect to the otherwise reasonable adults who frequent this forum.

That's my opinion. Not trying to be inflammatory, by the way.

(I have major issues myself with Mr. Armstrong, but would not in any way compare him to genocidal maniacs.)

Oh give me a break. I don't feel disrespected, and I have some pretty close ties to the Holocaust. I don't think any reasonable person would suggest that Lance and Adolf are on the same plane. I think Andrew did a good job of illustrating the overlap of good and evil.
Good article too.

yngpunk

10-25-2010, 02:22 PM

It's an unprecedented 72 degrees here in Chicago today, ahead of some severe wind warnings scheduled for tomorrow and the rest of the week...enjoy this weather since it won't be around much longer.

As for me, I'm off to bang together some steel and CF forks and then post my conclusions on the interwebs... ;)

sloji

10-25-2010, 03:57 PM

A few words here and there,
a kick to the shin,
an ignoble brutish attitude...where is the win/win?

Of course if I partake of the same with an unholy loathesome grin,
i'd beg forgiveness in vain,
and pretend to slip it in.

I really like Lance and hope he reads this,
cause truth is i'm broke and lazy,
and if I had an ounce of talent... i'd do so much worse than him!

1happygirl

10-25-2010, 03:58 PM

Oh give me a break. I don't feel disrespected, and I have some pretty close ties to the Holocaust. I don't think any reasonable person would suggest that Lance and Adolf are on the same plane. I think Andrew did a good job of illustrating the overlap of good and evil.
Good article too.

+10 on the analogy of the analogy.

lighten up peeps. don't take yourselves so seriously. sometimes the peeps with the most feigning indignation and sympathy have no horse in the game at all. this comment is not solely related to this thread, but it can apply to anything if the shoe fits.

CHF

10-25-2010, 04:18 PM

AndrewS

10-25-2010, 04:36 PM

Using Hitler as a comparison to anyone makes you look crazy (see President M of Iran for a prime example). :no:

A far more fitting and socially acceptable analogy is the story of Robin Hood. He's a known thief whose criminal acts are overshadowed by his benevolence. No one cared that what he gave to the poor was gained by violence.

Substitute poor for cancer research and violence with presumably doped bike racing and LA becomes Robin Hood. My .02 is the ends justify the means in this case.
I don't think Robin Hood would have been as funny. Satire usually relies on absurdity to be both poignant and amusing while avoiding preachiness. Here's a nice article on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire

My little quip was as much about the vitriolic of public reaction to as yet unproved allegations as it was about the winners writing the history. And the simpering diatribes I've received from Lance fans are proof of this first point. Imagine insulting someone just because they made an analogy using two famous people!

From now on I promise to only use Star Wars characters to illustrate points about human nature, lest someone need to hurl personal attacks at me to remonstrate my rudeness.

CHF

10-25-2010, 04:50 PM

It relies on the absurb. The bad analogy relied on the obscene (You'll know it when you see it). Understanding that there is a difference is what defines the line between smart and smartass.

rugbysecondrow

10-25-2010, 04:53 PM

I don't think Robin Hood would have been as funny. Satire usually relies on absurdity to be both poignant and amusing while avoiding preachiness. Here's a nice article on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire

My little quip was as much about the vitriolic of public reaction to as yet unproved allegations as it was about the winners writing the history. And the simpering diatribes I've received from Lance fans are proof of this first point. Imagine insulting someone just because they made an analogy using two famous people!

From now on I promise to only use Star Wars characters to illustrate points about human nature, lest someone need to hurl personal attacks at me to remonstrate my rudeness.

It was neither poignant nor amusing. To use your Wiki link (nice touch) it was also not funny nor witty. It would be most aptly described as cheap and simple. Knowing you are smarter than that, it seems the purpose was not what you say but rather to flame the thread. Note, I am not offended nor am I a Lance fan, it just in poor taste, along the lines of me making an abortion joke.

AndrewS

10-25-2010, 05:08 PM

One wonders how Mel Brooks, Woody Allen and Monty Python got away with making Hitler jokes over 40 years ago. Maybe everyone was just less touchy back then, when people could actually remember WWII?

You'd think I was making bomb jokes in front of the TSA guy. I stand by my commentary - if you want to get teary eyed about it that won't bother me.

And really, Rugby, your always crawling up my craw, so do you really think your newest criticisms hold any water?

rugbysecondrow

10-25-2010, 05:30 PM

firerescuefin

10-25-2010, 05:32 PM

Lance is about as altruistic as Nicolas Cage's character in the Lord of War....IMO.

That being said, he has done lots of good, regardless of his motives.

I wish last season was his LAST, but unfortunately we'll have to watch him be an also ran for at least 12 more months.

If he goes down.....it will have a HUGE affect on his organization. People don't like being misled...and they don't like their heroes revealed as disingenuous liars. Lance strikes me as the Pete Rose type (except much smarter). He'll go down with the ship and paint himself as the victim.

I would consider myself an objective "hater" at this point. What's funny is I used to be a fan...with the posters and all. It reminds me of the girlfriend that I can't believe I used to date.

Hitler is not funny, nor is using him in satire whitty.

Lifelover

10-25-2010, 05:53 PM

sloji

10-25-2010, 05:55 PM

Some folks are just smarter than others and their arguments make sense...Hitler was like that. I probably would have been a Hitler youth and marched into battle thinking I was some holy warrior. Reading the posts back and forth convinces me that I'm not smart enough to engage in the process at a higher level and with folks so obviously superior I usually just bow out and hide in the attic and hold tea parties. Still, I had a visceral reaction to the satire and maybe that was the point...to show just how stupid I am and just how smart others are that I can't even be in the game...maybe if I doped?

wc1934

10-25-2010, 07:19 PM

I wonder how Hitler would have gone down in history if he had also cured cancer? ;)

Whatever you intended, your post came across as a stupid and ignorant statement - just reflect and apologize.

AndrewS

10-25-2010, 07:45 PM

Whatever you intended, your post came across as a stupid and ignorant statement - just reflect and apologize.
And who, exactly, do you want me to apologize to? Those who have called me vomitous, trolling, rude, crazy, self absorbed, stupid or ignorant?

I will reflect on that.

You'll note that I haven't actually insulted any person, including Lance Armstrong - as several other posters have pointed out. I have insulted some peoples "sensibilities", "good taste" and "political correctness".

How about you? Insulted any actual people today?

veggieburger

10-25-2010, 07:49 PM

This is all turning a little sour, and all these big words being thrown around are giving me a headache.

Let's all just go for a bike ride together, k?

:)

rugbysecondrow

10-25-2010, 08:00 PM

And who, exactly, do you want me to apologize to? Those who have called me vomitous, trolling, rude, crazy, self absorbed, stupid or ignorant?

?

Now Andrew,nobody called you any of those things, did they? A quick read seems to show that everybody was speaking directly to your statements and not you as a person.

If you are going to post something knowingly inflammatory, then you can't try to play the victim when you get called on it. Just suck it up and take like a man with no whining.

BumbleBeeDave

10-25-2010, 08:22 PM

This one is close, REAL close . . .

Let's try to keep it to the issue and take the personal poo-poo slinging offline, please.

The Evil Moderator thanks you . . .

BBD

tuxbailey

10-25-2010, 08:32 PM

This one is close, REAL close . . .

Let's try to keep it to the issue and take the personal poo-poo slinging offline, please.

The Evil Moderator thanks you . . .

BBD

Are all moderators evil, like catbert?

rwsaunders

10-25-2010, 08:35 PM

I posted the article because I thought that it presented a fair balance of the issues facing Livestrong....cancer, education, funding, research and LA's past, current and future effect on the organization. I didn't read it at all as a biased piece, one way or another, which is so prevalent in LA-related articles these days.

I also was not aware that the LAF was founded two years before LA had a TDF victory, and I was not aware of how Ulman and LA got together. Individually, they started their own respective foundations, as both were cancer survivors as well as athletes....pretty impressive to me at so young an age (21 and 26).

What I took away from the article is the specific quote from an oncologist..."There was no field of survivorship until Livestrong created it. As oncologists, we were entirely focused on making cancer go away. We weren't looking at people's long-term problems"

It will be interesting too see what the future brings.

BumbleBeeDave

10-25-2010, 08:43 PM

Are all moderators evil, like catbert?

. . . by definition, the very epitome of evil.

Of course Serotta Pete ,being the HEAD moderator, is obviously most Evil of all, and taught me everything I know about Evil Moderatorship. :D

BBD

wc1934

10-25-2010, 08:56 PM

And who, exactly, do you want me to apologize to? Those who have called me vomitous, trolling, rude, crazy, self absorbed, stupid or ignorant?

I will reflect on that.

You'll note that I haven't actually insulted any person, including Lance Armstrong - as several other posters have pointed out. I have insulted some peoples "sensibilities", "good taste" and "political correctness".

How about you? Insulted any actual people today?

Why are you turning this on me and asking if I insulted anyone today - are you feeling guilty - and to answer your question - no I have not insulted anyone today - and if someone suggested that I did, I would attempt to make amends.

Ralph

10-25-2010, 08:59 PM

Thanks for posting the article RW. I'm a fan of LA's accomplishments, both on and off the bike. We'll just have to see how everything plays out.

pbjbike

10-25-2010, 09:13 PM

SNIP Lance is about as altruistic as Nicolas Cage's character in the Lord of War....IMO. SNIP It reminds me of the girlfriend that I can't believe I used to date.

The two best lines in this thread. :beer:

William

10-25-2010, 09:19 PM

http://ahistoryofnewyork.com/pciture/md_1930_book-thumb-480x321.jpg

1happygirl

10-25-2010, 09:34 PM

Thanks for posting the article. You know originally I was a big supporter of LA, now I'm not, but my question is why is Livestrong the lowest ranked charity (for it's type) according to Charity Navigator? My question is could he contribute more? The grants etc are my money and not Livestrong's fundraising.

Charity Name Overall Score Overall Rating
Lance Armstrong Foundation - TX 53.40
Gilda's Club Westchester - NY 59.73
Alex's Lemonade Stand Foundation - PA 68.52
International Myeloma Foundation - CA 61.34
The V Foundation - NC 59.39

I will give him his point of exploring a different area of cancer.

PBWrench

10-25-2010, 09:55 PM

FWIW, LAF does not rank badly -- it receives 3 out of 4 possible stars, far better than the average. The CN site picks four other charities at random with similar key words by way of comparison. That does not represent a thorough analysis of a charity's performance among its peers. There are many factors, as well, that can skew their analysis, especially relating to permanent assets in foundations under a charity's management.