carbon wheels - what's the big deal?

[giverdada]

hey friends:

so, christmas is coming up and my lady friend has been slaying it on her carbon felt. even after a major crash early in the season, she trained hard and got really fast. in the crash, she blew the front wheel out of wack and it's not going back. she has expressed interest in something like the zipp 202's, as they are not very deep (no threat in crosswinds as she's narrow and light herself), and are very, but very light. i just thought i'd consult here and see what y'all think about the 202's, and carbon wheels in general. i'm always afraid of braking them, breaking them, and the typical price tag. what do you think? christmas might be carbon this year... ;)

[AndrewS]

I think most people here would agree that carbon wheels have come of age and are reliable and strong.

Braking is not quite as good as bare aluminum, but not really bad with the correct pads.

If her main issue is lightness, consider having Ergott or someone like that make some light alloy wheels, like Kinlin XR-200s with White hubs. I think that carbon really shines with the deep section rims, where only carbon can produce a tall rim that is still light. With lower profile rims, alloy rims are still very competitive, if not as sexy. And cheaper to buy and replace.

[Volant]

1st annivesary is paper.
11th is steel (new Vanilla or RS? the wait is that long)
I guess you'll need to wait for the 75th anniversary, which is a form of carbon - Diamonds! (cost is about the same)

[platbr]

So I'm about 190 lbs and 6'3" and am always worried about breaking wheels. My wife, on the other hand, is about 115 lbs. I bought her a sweet set of carbon race wheels last spring (HED Jet 4s) and she's been using them for racing, training, riding, etc. All good... and at her light weight, I'd imagine they'll continue to be true for a very long time.

You might consider the 303s.... not a lot of cross section there, either. But the 202s are a good bet, as well.

[vqdriver]

well, there's this thread

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=79320&highlight=taxi+police

carbon wheels seem to have taken the impact better than the frame.

[rustychain]

40000+ miles on my Boras. I'm 95 kilos. No issues yet. I'll get back to you after I get some more miles on them

[Jack Brunk]

I've been riding the heck out of a set of Edge mountain clinchers in 29er size. Singletrack, rocks, mud etc. and not a single issue. Also important to have a good wheelbuilder phone number in your cell phone.

[jimcav]

that is all i have been riding the last year (road). i would not go with 202s--i don't view them as durable. maybe the 202 are better now, but for low profile carbon, my hyperons were tough--stayed true more than open or velocity aerohead. also my bora were solid, but the edge are much lighter. i've cracked 2 zipp 303 and had zipp rims in topolino wheels that had problems (NOT impact related--just flawed rims or flawed tension in the build)
I have friend who is about 190 who rides HED--no issues

also if you put a deeper rim in the rear when likely won't get pushed around as much

jim

[rice rocket]

If you want something shallow, maybe a Reynolds Attack? They're cheaper than the Zipps and EDGE for sure, and there's plenty of people that ride them as daily wheels.

[11.4]

Be sure your perspective is current. Most people who haven't bought state-of-the-art wheels recently are behind the times (no offense intended).

A couple years ago the reason for carbon wheels was the deep, supposedly aero, cross-section. A good reason if you already rode 25+ mph on a regular basis.

A year ago, the reason became the lighter weight ... they finally actually weighed less than alloy wheels by a meaningful degree.

Now, the crowning reason ... they are mostly more durable than alloy wheels, even in the shallower profiles like the Hyperon and 202. Frankly, buy a tubular wheel in carbon and don't look back. Unless you need an Abrams tank of a rim like the Nemesis, get carbon.

Oops. Did I say tubular? Well, there's never been a reason to buy tubular better than the tubular carbon rims out there today. They're gorgeous and bulletproof and you'll love them. Buy carbon clinchers if you want, but they are still a year or two behind tubulars in their evolution.

And by the way, the one valid reason not to buy carbon this year is that I'd expect to see some pretty massive price drops on quality carbon wheels over the next twelve months. Just like with carbon frames, the world is being flooded with quality carbon wheels and the big guys are having to price downwards. This ain't boxes with Intel chips inside, but it's heading the same direction. But if you want to buy for the here and now, definitely get her the carbons.

[NateM]

Look no further if you dont want to break the bank...
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=80194
I bought a pair of these a few yrs ago and they are holding up really well.The company's factory burnt down so these are it. Run some nice tubies on them and your wife will very happy.

[PETER REID]

I have a set of 404's that I have ridden for 10 years. They have ben great. However if you are being cautious about spending the $2500+ for a new set, you might look at a set of American Classic Mag 300's instead. They are less than half the price and are 500 grams less. These wheels also fill the bill as a great climbng wheel and do a very good job of holding their speed on rollers. For your sig /other they would make a very nice christmas present and still have money left over for yourself... :hello: :banana:

[dd74]

These look intriguing to me. Any feedback you guys might have will be appreciated. I don't have a set of carbon wheels, but would like to give them a try sometime in the future.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Edge-1-25-Ultra-Light-Carbon-Fiber-Tubular-Wheelset-/320604919736?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories

Also, what's the opinion of carbon spokes against aluminum spokes with carbon wheels? I've heard a carbon wheel really isn't a true lightweight carbon wheel unless it has carbon spokes.

Thx.

[ergott]

I've heard a carbon wheel really isn't a true lightweight carbon wheel unless it has carbon spokes.

Thx.

There is a company named Lightweight that uses carbon spokes. My carbon wheels are about 975g. If that's not truly lightweight, I don't know what is;-)

[haneriali]

They should be here this weekend. While still a clincher, they're lighter than my aluminum wheels: that's a plus. Reports indicate they're dependable for every-day use: another plus. After long contemplation, I decided against tubulars, although I hear they're not too much of a hassle. However, my wife (who'll also get a set and rides with me most days) seems to find every shard of glass or pointed rock on the road, so I change lots of tubes. I suspect changing tubes is easier on clinchers (tubular-experienced riders can correct my ignorance :confused: ).

[rockdude]

Look no further if you dont want to break the bank...
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=80194
I bought a pair of these a few yrs ago and they are holding up really well.The company's factory burnt down so these are it. Run some nice tubies on them and your wife will very happy.

+1, For Tubies and Racing.

For Clinchers and training I still prefer AL.

[spartacus]

There is a company named Lightweight that uses carbon spokes. My carbon wheels are about 975g. If that's not truly lightweight, I don't know what is;-)

Hilarious. Just one of my Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires weighs 895g.

[dd74]

A friend referred me to these:

http://www.williamscycling.com/38ct/38ct.html

Any thoughts or experiences with Williams? The price is definitely good for a carbon tubular wheelset.

Also, I haven't looked into tubular tires in decades. What brands do you guys recommend?

Thx.

[AndrewS]

I'm always a little surprised that people are such huge proponents of tubulars. Their glue flex gives them higher rolling resistance than clinchers, and their spares eat the weight savings over clinchers (spare tube vs. spare complete tire).

I realize that some people just like them, but they don't necessarily "out perform" clinchers.

No, I'm not trying to start some huge argument. But people looking for expensive wheels should know that there is more to the decision of clinchers vs. tubulars than learning to use glue.

[rockdude]

I'm always a little surprised that people are such huge proponents of tubulars. Their glue flex gives them higher rolling resistance than clinchers, and their spares eat the weight savings over clinchers (spare tube vs. spare complete tire).

I realize that some people just like them, but they don't necessarily "out perform" clinchers.

No, I'm not trying to start some huge argument. But people looking for expensive wheels should know that there is more to the decision of clinchers vs. tubulars than learning to use glue.

When Tubulars are used for Cross their is a huge advantage.

I will agree with you that tubulars on the road are not such an advantage over clinchers in weight savings or speed but they do have a great feel to them. I quit training with tubulars because of all the flat issues and I only race them on hill climbs. I currently have 6 sets of Carbon tubulars and only one set is for the road the rest are setup for cross.

[firerescuefin]

I'm always a little surprised that people are such huge proponents of tubulars. Their glue flex gives them higher rolling resistance than clinchers, and their spares eat the weight savings over clinchers (spare tube vs. spare complete tire).

I realize that some people just like them, but they don't necessarily "out perform" clinchers.

No, I'm not trying to start some huge airgument. But people looking for expensive wheels should know that there is more to the decision of clinchers vs. tubulars than learning to use glue.


+1000

I own tubulars...enjoy riding them, but as someone who works for a living and has 2 children under the age of 2.5, my go to wheels are carbon clinchers. Someone on the forum boasted the other day that he could change his tubular faster than I could change a tube.....1, this is false (and completely laughable)..2, the chances of you rolling it off are not negligible...3, it misleads people like the 50 year old guy on here looking to buy carbon wheels for him and his wife considering tubulars over clinchers. I would love to see that interaction when they flat on a ride together. Talk about an event leading to divorce.

[ergott]

+1000
he could change his tubular faster than I could change a tube.....1, this is false (and completely laughable)..

I did it right in front of a pack of clincher riders.

Veloflex Carbon
Tufo Extreme tape
plastic tire lever to get started
spare tire with some glue on it.
back to riding

It really can be that fast.

[TMB]

Changing a tubular on the road shouldn't take more than 4 or 5 minutes.

It ain't rocket science.

[BillG]

Changing a tubular on the road shouldn't take more than 4 or 5 minutes.

It ain't rocket science.

Exactly, if the tire is stretched it's no big deal. The main difficulty is getting the old tire off if it's well-glued. And remember, most of the time you can use Pit Stop. It works amazingly well.

[TAW]

I'm always a little surprised that people are such huge proponents of tubulars. Their glue flex gives them higher rolling resistance than clinchers, and their spares eat the weight savings over clinchers (spare tube vs. spare complete tire).

I realize that some people just like them, but they don't necessarily "out perform" clinchers.

No, I'm not trying to start some huge argument. But people looking for expensive wheels should know that there is more to the decision of clinchers vs. tubulars than learning to use glue.

Here's some good reasons for tubulars. 1. They are lighter weight wheels than a comparable set of clinchers. 2. If you change the whole tubular tire, you don't have to look on the inside of your existing clincher for bits of glass/rock that may still be embedded. 3. Vittoria Pit Stop will seal most small stuff quickly. 4. Good ride and performance.

[AndrewS]

Here's some good reasons for tubulars. 1. They are lighter weight wheels than a comparable set of clinchers. 2. If you change the whole tubular tire, you don't have to look on the inside of your existing clincher for bits of glass/rock that may still be embedded. 3. Vittoria Pit Stop will seal most small stuff quickly. 4. Good ride and performance.
1. Correct - but the total bike weight with a spare tire is no lighter.
2. Good for the first flat, less helpful for two.
3. Is there no equivalent clincher product? (Never heard of Pit Stop.)
4. Higher rolling resistance than equivalent clinchers, due to glue flex.

All in all, tubulars seem like no more than preference, rather than some sort of advantage. They have greater rolling resistance, and if you don't buy the "rotating inertia" argument the total weight isn't any better.

I know that many like the way the ride better, but that just gets back to preference, not "advantage".

[BillG]

3. Is there no equivalent clincher product? (Never heard of Pit Stop.)


Nope. I guess you don't ride tubulars!

[oldguy00]

I'm a tubie fan, but I find the lighter weight thing to be not so important..
I've used 1200 gram wheels right up to 1800 gram carbones. If anything, I feel faster on the carbones.....

[45K10]

I am still not sure about going carbon. I am looking for a new set of race wheels for next season (tubulars = race, clinchers = training). I can get a set of handbuilt alum rim tubulars w/campy hubs for less than $600.00. I am a little wary on spending upwards of $1800.00 for some carbon rims and possible inferior hubs. Don't get me wrong the carbon's are sweet and if money was no object I would get a set but if I end up crunching them in a crit I would probably be sick.

[djg]

1. Correct - but the total bike weight with a spare tire is no lighter.
2. Good for the first flat, less helpful for two.
3. Is there no equivalent clincher product? (Never heard of Pit Stop.)
4. Higher rolling resistance than equivalent clinchers, due to glue flex.

All in all, tubulars seem like no more than preference, rather than some sort of advantage. They have greater rolling resistance, and if you don't buy the "rotating inertia" argument the total weight isn't any better.

I know that many like the way the ride better, but that just gets back to preference, not "advantage".

If anything is clear, it's that this back and forth over tubular vs clincher tires is fairly well pointless.

So, yeah, I'll play tic-tac-toe yet again, to the same end. Sure, clinchers are fine on the road, even if I'd prefer tubular tires. Cross, I'll take tubular tires, thanks. But really, the weight of the spare tire vs. the weight of a spare tube is (a) a non-issue on training rides and (b) a non-issue racing, because the spare goes on a wheel in a wheel van. And the rolling resistance thing I read everywhere . . . way small difference in a straight line relative to everything else and maybe worse than a wash if you think you corner better on good tubular tires?

I'm pretty versatile, I can lose on anything. But I like what I like.

[PaulE]

Through some incredibly good luck I have a pair of Lightweight Wheels by Carbon Sports, the Standard III clinchers. They are beautifully made and feel really, really light - claimed weight is 1150 grams for clinchers with 20 spokes front and rear, a 47.5 mm rim height and a computer magnet built into each rim. The bladed carbon spokes are bonded to the carbon rims and carbon hubs which have DT Swiss internals. There is also a special front hub for Serotta forks which provides enough clearance between the hub flanges and the Serotta fork legs/dropouts.

I haven't put a lot of miles on mine yet, but they do ride great. Braking in dry conditions is fine. A friend of mine rode his in the rain and braking in the wet is less effective than it is for aluminum rims - if you ride in the rain you definitely need to feather the brakes to squeegee the water off the braking surface before really braking. Compared to box section rims you will definitely feel the effects of crosswinds much more too. And if you're riding behind someone who has these wheels, you'll hear a whooshing sound coming off their rear wheel (you don't hear it from your own wheel).

[dd74]

Personally, I'm not into that whooshing sound. Reminds me of those fake turbo blow-off valves guys put on their n/a Sentra and Honda cars.

But I'm still interested in shallow carbon wheels. Thing is, compared to a good set of aluminum wheels, there isn't that much weight savings. Not until, I figure, you get into a 500-gram differential. I mean, most of these carbon wheels are twice as much as R-Sys wheels, and don't weigh so much less to justify their cost.

So what gives? Is it the ride quality? The durability? Are they simpler than aluminum wheels?

Oh, and as far as clinchers vs. tubular tires, I've heard clinchers almost match tubular tires in every aspect of cycling. But I don't know; last time I had tubular tires, they were on Mavic MA 40s or something like that (I can barely remember it's been so long).

[jbrainin]

I use both Campy Hyperon Ultra carbon clinchers and Nimble Spider aluminum clinchers. They basically weigh the same. The Nimble Spiders brake significantly better than the Hyperons, even though the Hyperons brake well enough in pretty much any situation involving dry roads. I don't notice any other significant differences in performance between the two wheel sets. I really like the Hyperons and the way they look on my Meivici but I can buy at least six pairs of Nimble Spiders for the price of a set of Hyperon Ultras.

Unless you are looking to buy a set of wide-rimmed carbon clinchers or are looking at a pair of really light carbon tubulars, I see no reason for paying the additional cost for carbon other than as an aesthetic choice.