are integrated headsets a marketing bust?

[eddief]

Just surfing bikes at preownedbikes.com. Got to surfing over at Merlin and Litespeed and I noticed many 2005 models do not have the bulbous protruding integrated headsets. I think maybe even the top of line for each brand has the traditional style headset. Now I never thought these were good to look at, but wondering if anyone has yet pronounced them a true marketing joke?

[eddief]

over at Competitive Cyclist a significant number of brands and models do, in fact, follow the integrated fashion statement.

[bfd]

The supposed new look is to "integrate" the headset so you don't see the headset cups and instead have cups around the bottom bracket as seen in the new DA 10 crank (or FSA megas). What new is old and what's old is new....

[saab2000]

Some look better than others. The Merlin integrated headset was easily the ugliest of the log. Additionally it added a ton of height. Finally, I think it was heavier and on a bike called "Extralight" it is a bit strange to have a heavier headset.

Good move on their part to get rid of it.

Some are better looking though. Look frames have pretty nicely integrated ones which blend into the fork nicely.

[hypnospin]

these are not new, look had 'em way back in the early '90's.
even some early era road bikes had them.
for a detailed treatise on integrated go to chris king website and read him spell out some design review.

colnago has not gone to integrated...there are some inherent problems with this concept.

funny thing is, one advantage of integrated was touted as enabling the top and down tubes to be closer to the ends of the headtube (not further as on the lightspeed example) but a mech engineer i know says this is not a given...



Just surfing bikes at preownedbikes.com. Got to surfing over at Merlin and Litespeed and I noticed many 2005 models do not have the bulbous protruding integrated headsets. I think maybe even the top of line for each brand has the traditional style headset. Now I never thought these were good to look at, but wondering if anyone has yet pronounced them a true marketing joke?

[Jeff N.]

Has anyone pronounced integrated headsets a marketing joke? Yes. ME! Integrated headsets suck. Period. I don't like the looks at all. And theres absolutely no advantage over traditional headset designs, but in fact many DISadvantages. I've seen the new 2005 Extralight from Merlin. NO MORE INTEGRATED! Brilliant move! Also, that model has thick, straight, stout 1" chainstays and an oversized down tube that ovalizes at the BB. All double butted as well. They've done a nice job on that frame. Anyone else seen one? Definitely worth a look. Jeff N.

[e-RICHIE]

i thought they were a joke.
they solved no problems, yet created a few new ones.
i spent time on the builder list debating it and some
of the chestnuts are buried in my blog-thingy:
http://richardsachs.blogspot.com

happy passover to my brethren here and in the mines.

hey - thanks for reading.

e-RICHIE

[jerk]

integrated headsets are dumb. but not as dumb as saddles pushed all the way forward on zero set back posts on bikes with 90mm stems put on upside down and on top of fifty mm of headset spacers. when talking about stupidity, the jerk will give a pass to a pinarello dogma....but not to some custom clown bike....it's just the jerk's trip, dig?

[dirtdigger88]

when I bought my Legend I was seriously considering three bikes- Serotta, Seven and Merlin- The Seven dealer was a *** the first two times i went in to talk- and Merlins had intagrated headsets- Serotta won without a fight

Jason

[Jeff N.]

integrated headsets are dumb. but not as dumb as saddles pushed all the way forward on zero set back posts on bikes with 90mm stems put on upside down and on top of fifty mm of headset spacers. when talking about stupidity, the jerk will give a pass to a pinarello dogma....but not to some custom clown bike....it's just the jerk's trip, dig?Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Dogma sport the integrated (hiddenset)design? Seems like DeRosa and practically ALL those Italian steeds do.Can't think of one that doesn't! Jeff N.

[saab2000]

Pegoretti and Colnago, two of the biggest Italian brands, do not have integrated headsets.Well, Pegoretti isn't big, but they are getting more well known. Colnago is probably the biggest Italian brand and they don't have integrated headsets.

I still say that they may be dumb, but some of them seem (aesthetically only speaking), at least to my eyes, not unattractive. However, the Merlin bulbous internal headset was/is a hideous monstrosity.

[zap]

Integrated headsets work just fine if properly engineered and machined. Seems to be a tough job for some in the cycling industry.

I like the clean lines an integrated design can have. Ditto for internal cable routing which some knuckle heads decry for stupid reasons. I have two IS hs which are of completely different designs and never a problem with either. Strange, both bikes have internal cable routing as well for all but the front brakes.

I think external bb bearings are an interim solution. But it might be a few more years before everyone gets on board with an oversize bb shell standard as proposed by PW or one of the designs built by Cannondale and Pinarello.

Now I'm looking to spend good money on a design that also utilizes internal gears thats reliable and light. Might be a few years, but I've got good al and carbon bikes that will last a long time :rolleyes:

OK. Nothing wrong with a frame that hangs all it's parts in the wind for the eye to see. It's easy to build, light and reliable and it too can look good.

But it lacks imagination.

[Dr. Doofus]

Whilst a shop slave, yerdoof saw some hiddensets that worked well, and many designs that didn't. It makes it easier to put the bike together for the shop/manufacturer, but doesn't reduce weight and causes new problems while not really solving any problem that needed to be solved (see King and Sachs on this point).

Builders whose concerns are quantity, marketability and "keeping up with the joneses" use them (with the exception of Colnago). Builders whose concern is quality and well-engineered, well-crafted artistry do not.

[gabbard]

If I remember, for awhile, there were bearings pressed directly into the headset in some fashion (bad idea, BAD IDEA!). Also, there are hidden or integrated headsets that still use cups pressed into the headtube, you just don't see them. In theory, from an engineering POV, these should be no different than a regular, cups-outside, design. Now, whether you like that look is a different idea, but cups inside should work like cups outside.

Steve

[Kirk Pacenti]

Lets hope so! I fought very hard against incorporating these into the ABG product line. They offered no advantage, and I didn't like the way they looked. And when my custom frame customers were offered the option of the integrated or standard HS they chose standard, at a rate of nearly 3 to 1! The performance of them was not nearly as good as a standard HS at first, but I hear they (ABG) have it worked out now.

Now they seem to be ubiquitous, and my opinion of them has mellowed over the past couple years. Like someone else said, some bike companies do them right and they can look OK. I would never build (or buy) a bike with one. Unfortunately I think they will be here to stay on some level. More and more fork makers are doing a "integrated" crown, some even have dumped the standard crowns altogether.

Cheers,

[Grant McLean]

Chris King website has a technical article on the reason they don't make them. Given the fact that King doesn't make an integrated headset, this seems to me to be the best reason not to buy a frame that needs one. I guess the consolation prize is you can buy a Campy Record integrated headset, and get yet another piece of carbon fiber trim on yer bike. But the campy headset only fits one of the few different integrated frame designs.

_grant
still 1" and proud of it
(?!)

[Ti Designs]

The Seven dealer was a *** the first two times i went in to talk

That's kinda weird, I've been collecing feedback from both Seven and Serotta dealers lately and I get the same thing over and over again. The common complaint about Serotta dealers is the more upright position and the big heat tube extensions and how many Serotta fit techs insist that it's a better position for all (I've been to Serotta school, I know where that comes from). The Seven feedback is far more blunt - something about never going back to that shop ever again...

Getting back on subject, there is a good reason not to have an integrated headset. With a non-integrated headset it's easy to hold very tight tolorances. Those tolorances fall to 1/10 of what they would be when you're talking about working a seat within the frame - and that's best case. I see people come into the shop all the time with integrated headsets that are either loose or bind on one side. They say "my headset doesn't work" and I agree with them...