OT: Fiat 500

[AngryScientist]

could this be my next commuter car? i like it! with roof racks and my campy equipped bianchi up top, this could be a rolling italian billboard!

http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/layover/imgthr.jpg
http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/layover/imgtwo.jpg
http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/layover/imgfour.jpg

[FlashUNC]

My girlfriend is eagerly awaiting the Abarth version when it hits the streets.

[bike22]

looks like the lovechild of a vw new beetle and a smart car.

[uno-speedo]

awesome car. i believe there is a waiting list in the UK just to buy one of the abarth models.

my old neighbour in england had the older model and had a 1.4 ltr turbo engine in the back seats. it barely fit but was very quick due to the car weighing nothing.

[false_Aest]

Hoping Fiat makes it to the US sometime soon.

http://www.fiat.co.uk/500blackjack/About.aspx

*Drool*

[William]

I wonder what the leg room is like? I might have to remove the front seats and sit in the back. :)

Looks cool though.




William

[Louis]

What's the best way to figure out if / when a manufacturer will be bringing a given Euro model to the US. I've been wondering about an ALFA that I might consider buying...

http://www.caranddriver.pl/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/reviews/car/10q2/2011_alfa_romeo_giulietta-first_drive_review/gallery/2010_alfa_romeo_giulietta_photo_11/3567022-1-eng-US/2010_alfa_romeo_giulietta_19_cd_gallery.jpg

[palincss]

My girlfriend is eagerly awaiting the Abarth version when it hits the streets.

Remember the Abarth 750 GT Zagato?

[christian]

What's the best way to figure out if / when a manufacturer will be bringing a given Euro model to the US.Assess how cool it is on a scale of 1-100. Take the reciprocal of that. Multiply that by 1%. It's about that likely. Subtract half of the remainder if you'd like a diesel motor, or a gas motor under 1999cc. Also, when it comes, the high-bolstered narrow Recaro seats will be replaced with mousefur barcaloungers.

(I think I could be a good automotive product manager, come to think of it!)

[eddief]

might be fun too

[FlashUNC]

Remember the Abarth 750 GT Zagato?


Car itself was a bit before my time, but those Abarths are properly insane.

Would love to own one.

[kmla320]

The Juke is UUUUUGGGGGLLLLLLLYYYYY

[Louis]

The Juke is UUUUUGGGGGLLLLLLLYYYYY

You know what they say about beauty and the eye of the beholder.

I agree it's not as sexy as the Alfa, but, I've seen worse.

Edit:

This may sound petty, but one of the principal reasons I’m biased against Nissans it that a huge % of the ads I hear for them on the radio involve an obnoxious-sounding announcer saying a bunch of stuff then shouting “NISSAN !!! NISSAN !!! NISSAN !!!”

If the brand is trying to appeal primarily to folks who are turned on by that sort of approach, then I want nothing to do with that product.

[dancinkozmo]

could this be my next commuter car? i like it! with roof racks and my campy equipped bianchi up top, this could be a rolling italian billboard!

http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/layover/imgthr.jpg
http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/layover/imgtwo.jpg
http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/layover/imgfour.jpg

saw a bunch of these driving around near the GM proving grounds here in michigan...imho the mini is a much nicer looking car

[Louis]

saw a bunch of these driving around near the GM proving grounds here in michigan...imho the mini is a much nicer looking car

I agree. The 500 is too rounded and VW bug-like.

[67-59]

Love the look of the 500. Hate the look of the Juke.

[dd74]

Can it be your next commuter? Good chance according to the trade magazines, and the Abarth may not be far behind.

When I was in Lucca over the summer, the neighbor in the building where we stayed had an Abarth. In person, the car is awesome. Not too small - about the size of a modern Mini Cooper, but by the shape and track, I'm certain if you needed to, you could run circles around the Mini Cooper, even the S.

Fiat, I found, has changed. No more Fix It Again Tony crap. They're a serious car company, which I'm sure has some input from Ferrari, who they own, IIRC. I've even heard Michael Schumacher, Ferrari's ex-top F1 driver, uses an Abarth around where he lives in Monaco.

While in Italy, we rented a Fiat Turbo-diesel Panda, which is sort of a stripped version of the Juke pictured above - and not as pretty and a bit smaller. But that car had balls 'til next week. Fast, with great pick up. And got 40+ mpg. Fiat currently builds the best commuter diesels on the market. I wish they'd bring the Panda here. It looks like it can fit bicycles really well on the interior.

As for the Abarth, well, I had a bit of a mishap on the Autostrade from Florence back to Lucca, and had to stop into a Fiat dealership for some...er...parts. Between my quasi-Italian and their quasi-English, I was shown to a back room where the Abarth go-fast modification pieces were kept. All I can say is this: 200, maybe even 250 hp can be brought out of the little turbo engine in the Abarth if the Abarth mods were put on it. And the suspension pieces are apt enough for a race track.

If I had my bet against a factory-modified Abarth against that John Cooper Works Mini S, I'd go with the Abarth.

Remember, Abarth has a legacy longer than the 911 Porsche, and it too was an air-cooled race car.

[xjoex]

It wil always be a cinquecento to me !

Thye are nice looking, Id consider one if I did not have a mini already


Joe

[michael white]

The Fiat is coming, and Chrysler hopes it will save the corp. It's supposed to drive great, have decent room up front but not much anywhere else. It might be a bit too cute for Midwesterners, but you can say the same for the Mini, which shares the same market. Lots of these European commuters are coming, and the hatchback genre is hot right now and moving upscale.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . looks too much like a big swollen pimple with wheels for my taste.

Besides . . . FIAT = Fix It Again Tony . . . :D

BBD

[Louis]

While in Italy, we rented a Fiat Turbo-diesel Panda, which is sort of a stripped version of the Juke pictured above - and not as pretty and a bit smaller. But that car had balls 'til next week. Fast, with great pick up. And got 40+ mpg. Fiat currently builds the best commuter diesels on the market. I wish they'd bring the Panda here. It looks like it can fit bicycles really well on the interior.

Why in the world would we want a vehicle like that in the US?

Anything that gets better than 23 mpg has to be a POC econobox that won't sell worth a durn.

[palincss]

Besides . . . FIAT = Fix It Again Tony . . . :D


It's a joke, but the underlying question is very real. What's reliability going to be like? Historically, reliability has never been a strong point with Italian cars, and I recall reading something recently in one of the online auto mags that indicated that it was an issue with the current Alfa Romeos.

A Fiat 500 is never going to be for me -- where would you put the bicycle? -- but it would be terrible if history repeated itself and Fiat failed again on account of poor quality and reliability.

[eddief]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=873683&mid=0&nmt=Bike%20Rack%20For%20the%20Abarth%20500

[dancinkozmo]

..no offense but this fiat is a "girl car"...not like the camaro...no replacement for displacement :banana: :banana: :banana:

[NHAero]

I had one of these when I was 14, in 1967 - it's a 1959 Fiat 500 - two cylinders, 16.5 hp :-)

[Louis]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=873683&mid=0&nmt=Bike%20Rack%20For%20the%20Abarth%20500

Those high racks look pretty silly IMO.

[rwsaunders]

Looks pretty cool. FIAT.....Fix It Again Tony.....an old joke from when we were kids.

[dd74]

Why in the world would we want a vehicle like that in the US?

Anything that gets better than 23 mpg has to be a POC econobox that won't sell worth a durn.
When the price of a gallon of unleaded goes above $5, you'll want one. Besides which, cars are many times more efficient than five years ago. I just read a review of the current Porsche 997, which gets 17 mpg. Damn good for a high-performance sport/race car.

None of that matters out here in Cali though. Our esteemed California Air Resources Board is trying to pass legislation that will cause us to pay $9 per gallon by 2020.

http://www.biasc.org/whats-new-at-the-bia/2010/9/1/california-air-resources-board-sets-unattainable-sb-375-targ.html

Now CARB is trying to outlaw diesel vehicles in the state, whether they're clean-burning diesels or not. That will put an unimaginable amount of people out of business.

Of course, only business leaders have complained. But then again, this is California. We don't care much for businesses. :rolleyes:

[dd74]

It's a joke, but the underlying question is very real. What's reliability going to be like? Historically, reliability has never been a strong point with Italian cars, and I recall reading something recently in one of the online auto mags that indicated that it was an issue with the current Alfa Romeos.
I drove a Fiat balls out for two weeks and over 2,000 kilometers. It ran fine as long as it was run hard. It's the thing that people don't know about cars: they love and need to be driven hard and fed a good diet of proper gas, oil and upkeep. Half the people who owned Fiats didn't know how to drive/care for them. A Toyota would have broken under their ownership.

These days the only difference between Fiat now and back in the 70s is they're now more stupid-owner proof; just like most other cars for sale today.

[dd74]

The Fiat is coming, and Chrysler hopes it will save the corp.
Chrysler also has wages on the new Jeep Grand Cherokee. Have you seen it? It's very nice.

[FlashUNC]

..no offense but this fiat is a "girl car"...not like the camaro...no replacement for displacement :banana: :banana: :banana:


But there's also something to be said for being able to go around a corner, and not end up wrapped around the nearest tree. ;)

[dd74]

But there's also something to be said for being able to go around a corner, and not end up wrapped around the nearest tree. ;)
Well said. Watch this road test with Jeremy Clarkson, particularly the scene in the mall. It's hilarious what this Ford Fiesta does to a Corvette.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zy78tFPQwQ

[FlashUNC]

I remember the first time baddies chased me through a shopping mall.

[Louis]

When the price of a gallon of unleaded goes above $5, you'll want one. Besides which, cars are many times more efficient than five years ago.

I was being sarcastic and criticizing both the US auto industry and the typical US buyer.

As far as cars being more efficient, my '97 Integra gets 35 mpg or better on every single tankful. It's not very easy to find cars like that these days. (Believe me, I've been looking.) And that's more than ten year old technology.

One thing I'll say for that Nissan - it does get better than 30 mpg highway, which is not common. If it were a Honda / Acura (with their expected quality and interior styling) I would seriously consider buying one. Nissan, I'm not so sure.

[RPS]

I had one of these when I was 14, in 1967 - it's a 1959 Fiat 500 - two cylinders, 16.5 hp :-)
I like that car; and would like the new one more if it also had a 500 CC engine like the original.

With today’s technology that would be good for 40+ HP, much more than the VW Karmann Ghia I bought when in high school.

[Polyglot]

I owned a Fiat 500C with Abarth dual carb modification for 16 years and sold it for more than I had outlayed on it over that whole period, which includes purchase price, upkeep, licensing, insurance, repaint, wear and tear and engine tuning. Plus I had a smile a mile wide every time I drove it.

I also owned a Fiat 1500C from 1964 in the mid-90's which I drove all over the place, including Italy, Austria, Hungary, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Switzerland and San Marino. I drove the car for two years and sold it for exactly what I paid for it. I would buy another one any day and while my mechanic for both cars was truly named Toni, I didn't need him much.

The forum doesn't seem to want to let me insert photos right now.

[dd74]

I was being sarcastic and criticizing both the US auto industry and the typical US buyer.

As far as cars being more efficient, my '97 Integra gets 35 mpg or better on every single tankful. It's not very easy to find cars like that these days. (Believe me, I've been looking.) And that's more than ten year old technology.

One thing I'll say for that Nissan - it does get better than 30 mpg highway, which is not common. If it were a Honda / Acura (with their expected quality and interior styling) I would seriously consider buying one. Nissan, I'm not so sure.
If you like more of a performance-oriented Honda, I'd look into the Civic Si. Can't argue with the entertainment factor of an 8,000 RPM redline. Plus, it gets fairly good mileage - mid to high 20s, IIRC. And, best of all, they're around $20K fully loaded, and come as a four-door. :)

[dd74]

I owned a Fiat 500C with Abarth dual carb modification for 16 years and sold it for more than I had outlayed on it over that whole period, which includes purchase price, upkeep, licensing, insurance, repaint, wear and tear and engine tuning. Plus I had a smile a mile wide every time I drove it.

I also owned a Fiat 1500C from 1964 in the mid-90's which I drove all over the place, including Italy, Austria, Hungary, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Switzerland and San Marino. I drove the car for two years and sold it for exactly what I paid for it. I would buy another one any day and while my mechanic for both cars was truly named Toni, I didn't need him much.
Yep. Damn good cars. And strong. I'd put them up against VW. I'm hard on cars when they allow me to be. Fiats are eager. :beer:

The forum doesn't seem to want to let me insert photos right now.
Yeah, I couldn't upload the Clarksen piece so had to put in the link instead.

[dd74]

You know, there are two other cars worth looking at: the Ford Fiesta and the Mazda 2.

I've driven the Fiesta, and it's very entertaining. I've heard the Mazda 2, partly bred on race car tech, is supposed to be even more entertaining.

Of course, the auto aftermarket is going to be all over both these cars. Ford will probably have an RS Fiesta and Mazdasport will probably do something very nasty-fast with the Mazda 2. :D

[Louis]

If you like more of a performance-oriented Honda, I'd look into the Civic Si.

I've thought of the Civic, but where do I carry my stuff? (i.e. the bike)

I love hatchbacks because it's so easy to toss stuff in the back.

You mentioned the Mazda2. the 3-hatch is near the top of my list of cars to consider, except that it's a 4-door. I'd be really, really interested if it were a 2-door. (single guy - in all the years I've had the Integra, purchased new in '97, I can probably count on the fingers of two hands the number of times there's been somebody in the back seat)

[dd74]

I've thought of the Civic, but where do I carry my stuff? (i.e. the bike)

I love hatchbacks because it's so easy to toss stuff in the back.

You mentioned the Mazda2. the 3-hatch is near the top of my list of cars to consider, except that it's a 4-door. I'd be really, really interested if it were a 2-door. (single guy - in all the years I've had the Integra, purchased new in '97, I can probably count on the fingers of two hands the number of times there's been somebody in the back seat)
The Civic four-door might have fold-down rear seats - I don't know - but you more than likely could fit a bike there. Or in the trunk with one or both wheels taken off.

The Mazda 2 is really small - I've seen one on a flatbed after it was used in a commercial filming near Warner Bros. It took up only about half of the flatbed. So what I mean by this is you'll probably need the four doors. As is, it's difficult to see that the car is a four door - at least IMO.

[dancinkozmo]

But there's also something to be said for being able to go around a corner, and not end up wrapped around the nearest tree. ;)

the ONLY relevant question to ask about any car is "will this thing get me laid ?" :)

[Louis]

the ONLY relevant question to ask about any car is "will this thing get me laid ?" :)

Meh, I'd rather spend my money on bike stuff. At least I'll still respect myself in the morning.

[goonster]

Assess how cool it is on a scale of 1-100. Take the reciprocal of that. Multiply that by 1%. It's about that likely. Subtract half of the remainder if you'd like a diesel motor, or a gas motor under 1999cc. Also, when it comes, the high-bolstered narrow Recaro seats will be replaced with mousefur barcaloungers.
. . . and the standard struts and suspension bushings will be replaced with overcooked egg noodles and sponge cakes (because everyone knows that the average American road resembles a boulder field).

So sad, because it's true. :rolleyes:

[zap]

If Chrysler fails, maybe Brinklin will take over the 500 and call it Yugo.

I see that VW has taken the road to failure with the new Jetta.

[Mshue]

What's the best way to figure out if / when a manufacturer will be bringing a given Euro model to the US. I've been wondering about an ALFA that I might consider buying...

http://www.caranddriver.pl/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/reviews/car/10q2/2011_alfa_romeo_giulietta-first_drive_review/gallery/2010_alfa_romeo_giulietta_photo_11/3567022-1-eng-US/2010_alfa_romeo_giulietta_19_cd_gallery.jpg

I really like the looks of this. Hopefully they've upgraded the old Alfa "reliability" also.

[RPS]

the ONLY relevant question to ask about any car is "will this thing get me laid ?" :)
As in laid to rest?

That question is far more relevant to most American buyers, which explains why we drive such large SUVs and other vehicles as long as they are affordable.

[daylate$short]

What's the best way to figure out if / when a manufacturer will be bringing a given Euro model to the US. I've been wondering about an ALFA that I might consider buying...

http://www.caranddriver.pl/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/reviews/car/10q2/2011_alfa_romeo_giulietta-first_drive_review/gallery/2010_alfa_romeo_giulietta_photo_11/3567022-1-eng-US/2010_alfa_romeo_giulietta_19_cd_gallery.jpg


I have seen a few of these around lately. :beer: They really look nice in person.....


I had one of these when I was 14, in 1967 - it's a 1959 Fiat 500 - two cylinders, 16.5 hp :-)
The twin cylinder 500 is coming, but probably not to America. Fiat is working on a 900cc turbo engine called the TwinAir which puts out 85HP and is much simpler/lighter than a comparable output 3 or 4 cyl.

[Keith A]

If Chrysler fails, maybe Brinklin will take over the 500 and call it Yugo.

I see that VW has taken the road to failure with the new Jetta.Yes the new Jetta now looks like any other care out there. I've owned five VW's including four GTi's and was sad when I saw the new Jetta :(

[Louis]

I have seen a few of these around lately. :beer: They really look nice in person.....

dl$s,

Just out of curiosity, where is "around" and does that imply anything about future availability for the rest of us?

Louis

[dd74]

dl$s,

Just out of curiosity, where is "around" and does that imply anything about future availability for the rest of us?

Louis
I venture to guess Detroit or Los Angeles. Here (in L.A.) virtually every car offered in America is tested in street traffic. Granted, they're sometimes mules with false body panels, no paint, and all logos removed. But if you are visually adept with body styles, you can pretty much figure the vehicle out. Plus, it helps when you see that the interior is filled with computers monitoring the car.

Once, I asked the driver of a mule pickup what brand it was, and he said, "If I tell you, I'll have to kill you." :rolleyes:

He meant it: it seems half of understanding the auto industry is understanding how to keep a secret.

[pjm]

Yes the new Jetta now looks like any other care out there. I've owned five VW's including four GTi's and was sad when I saw the new Jetta :(
Really? I kind of like it. It has an understated elegance to it. Sort of a junior A4. It will be successful because its reasonably priced and now has a roomy back seat. Most buyers couldn't care less about suspension design or if it has rear disc brakes or not. Have you seen the new Chevy Cruze (ugh, that name!) Nice little car, impressive build quality, but the back seat is almost useless. Also whats with the engines? Two choices, both with the same HP.

[michael white]

Really? I kind of like it. It has an understated elegance to it. Sort of a junior A4. It will be successful because its reasonably priced and now has a roomy back seat. Most buyers couldn't care less about suspension design or if it has rear disc brakes or not. Have you seen the new Chevy Cruze (ugh, that name!) Nice little car, impressive build quality, but the back seat is almost useless. Also whats with the engines? Two choices, both with the same HP.

it's ok if you like a German Mexican-built clone of a Corolla, because that's all it is. They dumbed it down. It's contemptuous of the American driver. I don't see why you wouldn't buy something with a better engine, suspension, and interior for the same price, unless you're a total moron. The philosophy of the new Jetta like any GM passenger car from the past three decades.

[pjm]

it's ok if you like a German Mexican-built clone of a Corolla, because that's all it is. They dumbed it down. It's contemptuous of the American driver. I don't see why you wouldn't buy something with a better engine, suspension, and interior for the same price, unless you're a total moron. The philosophy of the new Jetta like any GM passenger car from the past three decades.
Its not like I'm gonna buy one, I just like the looks. But the car will sell well. If I were to buy a VW now it would be a 4 door Golf TDI with a 6 speed.

[dd74]

Most buyers couldn't care less about suspension design or if it has rear disc brakes or not.
Correct. And if asked, they couldn't answer if they did or did not have independent rear suspension or rear disc brakes.

Have you seen the new Chevy Cruze (ugh, that name!) Nice little car, impressive build quality, but the back seat is almost useless. Also whats with the engines? Two choices, both with the same HP.
One of the engines, I think the turbo, is supposed to be super efficient, and achieve higher MPG than the Prius. In fact, GM suggests the Cruze renders the Prius obsolete in power, cost and environmental cost.

It's been said the Prius is the world's most environmentally unfriendly car to manufacture. I believe it's something having to do with the battery.

[dd74]

They dumbed it down. It's contemptuous of the American driver. I don't see why you wouldn't buy something with a better engine, suspension, and interior for the same price, unless you're a total moron. The philosophy of the new Jetta like any GM passenger car from the past three decades.
Don't think so. The new Jetta is much more advanced than the one it replaced. It's larger, more fuel efficient, faster, handles better, more technological. They made it smarter so the American driver has to think less to drive; just like a Japanese car.

As a contrast to the new Jetta, use a mid-80s BMW M5. That sort of car was one where you had to be quite aware of everything you and it did together to have any sort of real driving experience.

[pjm]

BMW surveyed their 1-series owners recently and 80% of them thought that their cars were front wheel drive!

[dd74]

BMW surveyed their 1-series owners recently and 80% of them thought that their cars were front wheel drive!
Sad. People can't appreciate the engineering that goes into these machines; stuff they couldn't possibly think of on their own. It's like all these clowns who buy high performance cars should attend a mandatory track day so they could be shown what their cars can do. Then they'd certainly appreciate the car for being more than just an appliance.

[michael white]

Don't think so. The new Jetta is much more advanced than the one it replaced. It's larger, more fuel efficient, faster, handles better, more technological. They made it smarter so the American driver has to think less to drive; just like a Japanese car.

.

Right. That's why it'll be the only midsize left with an 80's style torsion beam and an iron block engine. Enthusiasts roll their eyes at the engine choices: the 16 year old 115 hp base engine, which is a completely unusable "secretary" option, or the agricultural five cylinder upgrade that nobody cares for and gets poor mileage. Spend the bucks for the diesel and the car begins to be a little interesting, but till then it's just an overpriced Corolla (minus the reliability) that no educated buyer would choose. A base Mazda3 is an absurdly finer car, and in its own nominal segment the Sonata is so far over the Jetta's head it's not even funny, which is why Hyundai is on a roll and VW is dying. The new Jetta sucks. period.

[FlashUNC]

Right. That's why it'll be the only midsize left with an 80's style torsion beam and an iron block engine. Enthusiasts roll their eyes at the engine choices: the 16 year old 115 hp base engine, which is a completely sucky choice, or the agricultural five cylinder upgrade that nobody cares for and gets poor mileage. Spend the bucks for the diesel and the car begins to be a little interesting, but till then it's just an overpriced Corolla that no educated buyer would choose. A base Mazda3 is an absurdly finer car, and in its own nominal segment the Sonata is so far over the Jetta's head it's not even funny, which is why Hyundai is on a roll and VW is dying. The new Jetta sucks. period.

You forgot the rear drum brakes.

The car has been seriously decontented to reach this new $16k price point.

Why anyone would say its an upgrade over the old Jetta is beyond me. They're even decontenting the GTI somewhat this year. Glad I got in with the 2010 model year.

[dd74]

Right. That's why it'll be the only midsize left with an 80's style torsion beam and an iron block engine. Enthusiasts roll their eyes at the engine choices: the 16 year old 115 hp base engine, which is a completely unusable "secretary" option, or the agricultural five cylinder upgrade that nobody cares for and gets poor mileage. Spend the bucks for the diesel and the car begins to be a little interesting, but till then it's just an overpriced Corolla (minus the reliability) that no educated buyer would choose. A base Mazda3 is an absurdly finer car, and in its own nominal segment the Sonata is so far over the Jetta's head it's not even funny, which is why Hyundai is on a roll and VW is dying. The new Jetta sucks. period.
Good point. And here's where everything turns upside down with consumers who aren't aware of better options: the only new Jetta I've seen on my streets is the turbo diesel. Otherwise, I've seen no new VWs except for the GTi. Incidentally, trying to buy a new turbo-diesel Jetta in L.A., particularly a wagon, is very hard. Heck, trying to buy any diesel car in L.A. is hard, even the older 80s diesel Mercedes which people convert to run on bio-diesel -- which is really cool, IMO.

[RPS]

Really? I kind of like it. It has an understated elegance to it. Sort of a junior A4. It will be successful because its reasonably priced and now has a roomy back seat. Most buyers couldn't care less about suspension design or if it has rear disc brakes or not. Have you seen the new Chevy Cruze (ugh, that name!) Nice little car, impressive build quality, but the back seat is almost useless. Also whats with the engines? Two choices, both with the same HP.
One of the engines, I think the turbo, is supposed to be super efficient, and achieve higher MPG than the Prius. In fact, GM suggests the Cruze renders the Prius obsolete in power, cost and environmental cost.
The 1.4L turbo is supposed to be the premium engine and priced accordingly. The 1.8L NA engine puts out about the same power, and early reports have them performing about equal (as should be if same power). Although marketed as more efficient, the government’s MPG rating are very similar, with an estimated fuel savings of $53 a year when I looked at it. I expect that won’t pay for much premium pricing. The Eco model will be better but much of that is due to reasons other than the engine.

Ford will soon put these “turbo” technology differences (versus larger displacement) on an equal power basis to the test as well. The new 3.5L EcoBoost will have ratings similar to the 5.0L V-8 in the F-150, but the 3.5L turbo will have slightly higher towing and expected MPG compared to the V-8. Although the 3.5L Ecoboost is the premium engine and will be priced accordingly, I’ve read reports that Ford expects more buyers to go with one of the V-8s or the NA 3.7L V-6.

Sometimes technology, marketing, and customers don’t seem to be on the same page. Thus far it doesn't appear that "turbo" Ecoboost increases MPG as much as predicted when compared on equal HP basis.

[dd74]

Personally, I think the VW Jetta TDI series is some of the the most interesting in the U.S. right now. Stock cars (mostly), slightly modified engines, and a team is allowed only two tankfuls of diesel for the entire season.
http://www.autospectator.com/cars/files/images/VOLKSWAGEN-TDI-Cup.jpg
With stakes like that on the line for VW, you bet the new Jetta is going to far outperform the last one.

[dd74]

Sometimes technology, marketing, and customers don’t seem to be on the same page. Thus far it doesn't appear that "turbo" Ecoboost increases MPG as much as predicted when compared on equal HP basis.
I agree. I'm waiting to be disappointed by these figures and then settle in with a happy medium. But it must be said advancements are being made. I just read a test in our local paper re. the Porsche Cayenne S. 400-horsepower 4.8 liter V8, yet got an average of 17 mpg. city and highway. That's really good, all things considered.

The engines are much more efficient, environmentally friendly, etc., but I believe that the internally combustible engine has its limits, and those limits are about to be reached. One can downsize, turbo and supercharge, fuel inject and variable-valve-time up to a point, then it's either time to concentrate on gas and diesel hybrids, battery, hydrogen or solar.

Of course, the wild card in all this -- the consumer, who after a point, may or may not care about the technology.

[rugbysecondrow]

I wonder what the leg room is like? I might have to remove the front seats and sit in the back. :)

Looks cool though.

William

Go for it Hightower.

The fiat reminds me of the Gremlin...

[zap]

snip

The engines are much more efficient, environmentally friendly, etc., but I believe that the internally combustible engine has its limits, and those limits are about to be reached. One can downsize, turbo and supercharge, fuel inject and variable-valve-time up to a point, then it's either time to concentrate on gas and diesel hybrids, battery, hydrogen or solar.



I have to agree.

The next step is to make cars lighter. Paris auto show featured light weight concepts.

Steel is out-it's all about al, mg and carbon.

[RPS]

Of course, the wild card in all this -- the consumer, who after a point, may or may not care about the technology.
In my opinion consumers care most about how these new technologies (could) affect their out-of-pocket costs. In the case of small turbo engines versus larger NA ones they will know one trip to the mechanic will offset years of fuel savings. That's a hard mindset to overcome. When it comes to spending their own money most people are cautious.

[pjm]

VW is dying.
Thats a bit of a stretch.
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_2772.shtml

[dd74]

In my opinion consumers care most about how these new technologies (could) affect their out-of-pocket costs. In the case of small turbo engines versus larger NA ones they will know one trip to the mechanic will offset years of fuel savings. That's a hard mindset to overcome. When it comes to spending their own money most people are cautious.
Yep, you're right. I really do wonder about the reliability of these pumped up little motors, and their reliability. It's one reason why I pay attention to racing - not that it's exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, but in some cases, you do get an idea of how reliable some engines may be under strain, depending on the racing class and series. For instance, the Jetta TDI Cup series has shown that the 2.0 four turbo diesel is tough as nails, powerful and achieves awesome fuel mileage. It's truly a good engine in a good package.

I've heard of several high-horsepower little four cylinders going sour after a while, just because they weren't thoroughly engineered for the efforts marketing suggested they were capable of. One comes to mind - the 2.0 turbo in the Lancer EVO series. 300+ hp was a bit much for it a few years ago. Maybe they're better now.

The way I figure it is unless you can find a car builder who is like a Serotta, and will build you the perfect car (like the perfect frame and/or bike), you're at the mercy of so many variables in the auto industry, such as outside suppliers who produce crappy parts. For example, research how many other cars had stuck accelerators beside the Toyota models because the supplier sold to many other manufacturers; I believe the Ford Fusion was another car with sticking accelerators. In the end, you may as well figure on replacing any completely new vehicle soon after its warranty runs out. This isn't always the case, but more the accepted practice than not.

As is, I'm afraid the days of owning a Volvo for 17 years (used to be a world renown average, IIRC), or driving a Mercedes with 300,000 miles on the odometer, is far behind us.

[dd74]

Thats a bit of a stretch.
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_2772.shtml
Yeah, and VW also owns Porsche, who is doing very well with their four-door Panamera, the Cayenne, and the 911-series (997).

If I were to bet on who comes out ahead in the next year shareholder-wise, I'd say Ford and Volkswagen. Both have some outstanding products. Ford is simply tearing it up with the new Mustang and Fiesta.

[johnnymossville]

Yeah, and VW also owns Porsche, who is doing very well with their four-door Panamera, the Cayman, and the 911-series (997).

If I were to bet on who comes out ahead in the next year shareholder-wise, I'd say Ford and Volkswagen. Both have some outstanding products. Ford is simply tearing it up with the new Mustang and Fiesta.

I agree about VW and Ford. I'm waiting for the Focus ST or possibly the 50th Anniversary Mustang to go on sale.

Did you happen to see the Mustang GT vs M3 road test? I know the market/buyer is slightly different for these two vehicles, but given the price difference it's scary how good the 5.0 GT is. Beating an M3 with better overall driving dynamics, braking, and on a road course for half the price is quite a feat.

[michael white]

Thats a bit of a stretch.
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_2772.shtml
it's definitely true in the US, ie the Jetta market

[michael white]

I looked for VW here, but must have missed it.

TOP 20 VEHICLES
GO TO: Overview Charts | What's Hot Off the Lots | The U.S. Market | Sales and Share of Total Market by Manufacturer
Friday, October 01, 2010
Top 20 vehicles, current month's sales
Sep 2010 % Chg from
Sep '09 YTD 2010 % Chg from
YTD 2009
Ford F - Series PU 47,433 40.0 385,879 30.6
Chevrolet Silverado PU 32,185 65.9 267,715 16.7
Toyota Camry / Solara 30,769 19.5 250,830 -5.1
Honda Accord 21,620 3.8 214,827 -3.0
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 21,060 1.5 209,186 -2.7
Hyundai Sonata 20,639 161.3 149,123 59.4
Nissan Altima 20,016 64.8 168,897 9.2
Honda Civic 18,637 15.8 198,272 -4.6
Honda CR-V 17,907 23.0 144,286 1.0
Dodge Ram PU 16,887 25.5 140,889 -1.6
Chevrolet Malibu 16,289 55.4 163,246 37.2
Ford Fusion 15,918 46.9 161,581 20.0
Toyota RAV4 14,685 41.2 126,391 18.3
Ford Escape 14,313 64.7 142,820 13.1
Ford Focus 13,587 48.0 134,253 6.6
Ford Edge 12,815 186.2 87,135 35.2
Chevrolet Impala 12,186 -6.6 133,585 5.3
Chevrolet Equinox 11,658 70.4 99,055 76.9
Toyota Prius 11,394 3.7 103,334 -1.4
GMC Sierra PU 11,077 52.9 90,235 13.6
Source: www.motorintelligence.com

[michael white]

totally agree with all the pro-Ford sentiment.
If they're not the smartest carmaker in the world right now, I don't know who is.

[dd74]

I agree about VW and Ford. I'm waiting for the Focus ST or possibly the 50th Anniversary Mustang to go on sale.

Did you happen to see the Mustang GT vs M3 road test? I know the market/buyer is slightly different for these two vehicles, but given the price difference it's scary how good the 5.0 GT is. Beating an M3 with better overall driving dynamics, braking, and on a road course for half the price is quite a feat.
If you like Mustangs, check out the latest Boss that Ford will be selling; it's in this month's Motor Trend and Road and Track.

For everything the GT did to the M3, the Boss will annihilate it. All that the Mustang needs is an IRS in the back - but you can get those aftermarket. If I were in that segment, I would probably look at a Mustang before any other car, including the 3-series. Of course, unless I wanted a four door.

[johnnymossville]

If you like Mustangs, check out the latest Boss that Ford will be selling; it's in this month's Motor Trend and Road and Track.

For everything the GT did to the M3, the Boss will annihilate it. All that the Mustang needs is an IRS in the back - but you can get those aftermarket. If I were in that segment, I would probably look at a Mustang before any other car, including the 3-series. Of course, unless I wanted a four door.

Yep, I've seen the Boss and it's a monster, IRS or not. Ford is saying the 50th Anniversary Mustang, (All New) will have an IRS, developed by Ford NA with help from Ford Australia.

[FlashUNC]

totally agree with all the pro-Ford sentiment.
If they're not the smartest carmaker in the world right now, I don't know who is.

Small matter of that pesky debt burden the company has.

Ford isn't out of the woods quite yet. They're the fastest kid in the slow race that is American automotive companies, but that's not saying too much at this point.

[pjm]

I looked for VW here, but must have missed it.

TOP 20 VEHICLES
GO TO: Overview Charts | What's Hot Off the Lots | The U.S. Market | Sales and Share of Total Market by Manufacturer
Friday, October 01, 2010
Top 20 vehicles, current month's sales
Sep 2010 % Chg from
Sep '09 YTD 2010 % Chg from
YTD 2009
Ford F - Series PU 47,433 40.0 385,879 30.6
Chevrolet Silverado PU 32,185 65.9 267,715 16.7
Toyota Camry / Solara 30,769 19.5 250,830 -5.1
Honda Accord 21,620 3.8 214,827 -3.0
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 21,060 1.5 209,186 -2.7
Hyundai Sonata 20,639 161.3 149,123 59.4
Nissan Altima 20,016 64.8 168,897 9.2
Honda Civic 18,637 15.8 198,272 -4.6
Honda CR-V 17,907 23.0 144,286 1.0
Dodge Ram PU 16,887 25.5 140,889 -1.6
Chevrolet Malibu 16,289 55.4 163,246 37.2
Ford Fusion 15,918 46.9 161,581 20.0
Toyota RAV4 14,685 41.2 126,391 18.3
Ford Escape 14,313 64.7 142,820 13.1
Ford Focus 13,587 48.0 134,253 6.6
Ford Edge 12,815 186.2 87,135 35.2
Chevrolet Impala 12,186 -6.6 133,585 5.3
Chevrolet Equinox 11,658 70.4 99,055 76.9
Toyota Prius 11,394 3.7 103,334 -1.4
GMC Sierra PU 11,077 52.9 90,235 13.6
Source: www.motorintelligence.com
A lot of these vehicles are on this list because of big fleet sales. When is the last time you saw a VW on a rental car lot?

[johnnymossville]

Small matter of that pesky debt burden the company has.

Ford isn't out of the woods quite yet. They're the fastest kid in the slow race that is American automotive companies, but that's not saying too much at this point.

I agree on the debt, If this economy continues to sputter along that could definitely be a problem. Mulally has stated that Ford will have more cash than debt by the end of 2011. That's a tall order, but it's pretty good news if things go as planned.

[michael white]

Small matter of that pesky debt burden the company has.

Ford isn't out of the woods quite yet. They're the fastest kid in the slow race that is American automotive companies, but that's not saying too much at this point.

yeah, I'm just saying they seem to have great product right now and more in pipeline. It's like they've got Honda by the throat and are ready to start squeezing. I was mad at them for years for turning their back on the passenger car after they let Taurus die . . . but now, I have to root for the home team because they're the best.

[FlashUNC]

yeah, I'm just saying they seem to have great product right now and more in pipeline. It's like they've got Honda by the throat and are ready to start squeezing. I was mad at them for years for turning their back on the passenger car after they let Taurus die . . . but now, I have to root for the home team because they're the best.


Oh totally agree. There's an inner 16-year-old in me who's desperate for the new Mustang. Or at the minimum their Ford Focus RS stateside some 2012.

But they've still got some big hurdles to clear.

[dd74]

Ford Focus RS...
http://www.stangbangers.com/04_FocusRS-WRC_Jump_Wallpaper.jpg
...used with intended purpose.
:beer:

[daylate$short]

dl$s,

Just out of curiosity, where is "around" and does that imply anything about future availability for the rest of us?

Louis


I am near Detroit. And I wouldn't have to kill you if I told you what you want to know.
But I might lose my job ;)

[dd74]

2012 Boss 302...
http://www.drivearabia.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/2011-Ford-Mustang-Boss-302-9-450x311.jpg
Yeah, Ford's got it going on.

Wait 'til the Fiesta RS comes about. :cool:

[dd74]

I am near Detroit. And I wouldn't have to kill you if I told you what you want to know.
But I might lose my job ;)
May I ask what you do for Detroit?

[daylate$short]

Automotive engineer. Have been working on engine control systems, calibration, and testing for ~ 20 years at Ford and a couple yrs. each at Roush (racing) and BMW. Worked mainly on hybrids for the last 5 yrs.

Nice Boss 302 BTW!

[dd74]

Automotive engineer. Have been working on engine control systems, calibration, and testing for ~ 20 years at Ford and a couple yrs. each at Roush (racing) and BMW. Worked mainly on hybrids for the last 5 yrs.

Nice Boss 302 BTW!
Dream job. :beer:

[daylate$short]

It has it's moments...
Best day ever at work was when BMW made me go to M school in Spartanburg before they would let me drive their test vehicles. You gotta love getting paid to drive a M-Coupe flat out on a race track. :beer:
The flip side is spending your winters in Yellowknife and your summers in Death Valle. :(

[dd74]

Damn! Sounds fine to me. Why did I study English Lit when I should have been studying Engineering? :rolleyes:

[Louis]

OK, I'll play this game also - It's a good thing they don't let me drive them...

Event #1 (inside view) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsNYvmGrZKc)

Event #2 (outside view) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klkz5Ayrpnw)

In person this is just about the loudest thing you've ever heard.

[MMM]

It has it's moments...
Best day ever at work was when BMW made me go to M school in Spartanburg before they would let me drive their test vehicles. You gotta love getting paid to drive a M-Coupe flat out on a race track. :beer:
The flip side is spending your winters in Yellowknife and your summers in Death Valle. :(


Yellowknife sounds about as nice as Kapuskasing. Calibration is about going to nice places at the wrong time of the year.

[blschaefer1]

It has it's moments...
Best day ever at work was when BMW made me go to M school in Spartanburg before they would let me drive their test vehicles. You gotta love getting paid to drive a M-Coupe flat out on a race track. :beer:
The flip side is spending your winters in Yellowknife and your summers in Death Valle. :(

M-Coupe as in Z4 M Coupe? If so, I am the proud owner of a pristine 2007 edition. Never had it on a track, so I am envious. Best handling and braking car I have ever driven. Top Gear had an episode pitting one (a convertible no less) against a Viper on a track, and despite being down ~160bhp, the M tied it.

[FlashUNC]

M-Coupe as in Z4 M Coupe? If so, I am the proud owner of a pristine 2007 edition. Never had it on a track, so I am envious. Best handling and braking car I have ever driven. Top Gear had an episode pitting one (a convertible no less) against a Viper on a track, and despite being down ~160bhp, the M tied it.


I read it as the original Z Coupe shooting brake those batty Germans first put out in 2000 or so.

That thing was certfiiably fantastic, and there's already a pretty healthy collector's mkt around them.

[Pete Serotta]

I read it as the original Z Coupe shooting brake those batty Germans first put out in 2000 or so.

That thing was certfiiably fantastic, and there's already a pretty healthy collector's mkt around them.


On track and in everyday driving the Z4 is up on performance and handling based on almost 100 more hp and also a much more advanced rear suspension.

The Z3 coupe reminds me a lot of the 90 M3 (E30) for they pretty much have the same stock suspension. THE Z3 and E30 M3 have cult status now and prices are up there, If one likes them - - than that is good but they are 20 plus years old in stock performance and handling to the Z4 series.

[blschaefer1]

This is the M Coupe that I was referring to. They stopped making it in 2009.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/M/Z4MCoupe/default.aspx

[zap]

On track and in everyday driving the Z4 is up on performance and handling based on almost 100 more hp and also a much more advanced rear suspension.

The Z3 coupe reminds me a lot of the 90 M3 (E30) for they pretty much have the same stock suspension. THE Z3 and E30 M3 have cult status now and prices are up there, If one likes them - - than that is good but they are 20 plus years old in stock performance and handling to the Z4 series.

Pete, see the Car & Driver article comparing M3's.

[FlashUNC]

On track and in everyday driving the Z4 is up on performance and handling based on almost 100 more hp and also a much more advanced rear suspension.

The Z3 coupe reminds me a lot of the 90 M3 (E30) for they pretty much have the same stock suspension. THE Z3 and E30 M3 have cult status now and prices are up there, If one likes them - - than that is good but they are 20 plus years old in stock performance and handling to the Z4 series.

If I had my druthers, I'd probably pick the older M Coupe, simply for the hatch/shooting brake convenience, the insane styling, and still-nutty performance. But yeah, the rear suspension issues that crop up are a problem with them. The new M Coupe just looks a little too 350z for my taste.

http://www.ssip.net/upload/bmw-m-coupe-side-1_120.jpg

[dave thompson]

...snipped...
http://www.ssip.net/upload/bmw-m-coupe-side-1_120.jpg
Gotta say; that's the 2nd ugliest car I've ever seen!

[dancinkozmo]

Gotta say; that's the 2nd ugliest car I've ever seen!
you beat me to it !! :)