Chain life question

[tribuddha]

hopefully someone can shed some light on this subject for me..
I have a new ( February) Serotta ( classique TI) and it is in for the first tuneup prior to Levi's Gran Fondo.. it has about 1500 miles on it and my LBS tells me I need a new chain?? I trust them but how long should a chain last?? I have SRAM force XX with the pie plate cassette...they also told me new cables are a good idea ( apparently Shimano has cable issues)
They told me it is kind of in the gray area for change but if it was their bike they would change it, so I told them okay...
What is a reasonable price for a new chain.. $75 is what I was quoted...maybe this normal .. I just wasn't ready for new parts yet.. any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

[AngryScientist]

it really depends on what kind of conditions you were riding in, but assuming you rode in pretty dry, cleaner conditions, a new chain (10-sp) should definitely not be necessary.

the proper method of checking a chain involves using a standard ruler and checking the length of 12 links, and seeing how much stretch exists. you should learn to do this yourself, its really very easy, and all you need is a ruler.

new cables after 1500 miles - completely ridiculous.

[palincss]

new cables after 1500 miles - completely ridiculous.

Well, maybe not if he parks the bike in a steam bath or lives in the tropics on board a leaky boat. But otherwise - "gray area" my a$$...

[false_Aest]

New bike this year.

5500 miles so far.

I will replace my cables and housing on January 1st 2011. They will have about 7000 miles on them then.

1500 miles on a chain sounds iffy to me. Unless you don't regularly lube/wipe it down and ride at the beach a lot.

$75 for a chain? Too much.

REI charges $50 for a Ultegra. REI isn't known for being cheap. $25 for installation . . . . I guess.

----

Time to invest in some wrenches, a bike stand and Zinn's guide to bike maintainence.

[tribuddha]

yeah I ride here in the napa valley.. not much wet or dirt.. wipe chain after each ride...they used some kind of gauge and it showed a bit more then 50% wear??
Angry.. I think you are right time for a repair book and a stand :)

the thing is I trust the owner and trained for an Ironman with his wife so we are kind of friends.. but my first thought was rip off...I mean I try not to cross chain and it is basically new ?? Thanks for the info..

[oliver1850]

.

[regularguy412]

If you do a search for 'chain checker' here on the Forum,, you'll find our resident tester, Dave, with the low down on all things 'chain'.

If I remember correctly,Dave says that a chain checker will show a brand new Campy chain already 50% worn out before even one pedal stroke.

Mike in AR:beer:

[tribuddha]

If you do a search for 'chain checker' here on the Forum,, you'll find our resident tester, Dave, with the low down on all things 'chain'.

If I remember correctly,Dave says that a chain checker will show a brand new Campy chain already 50% worn out before even one pedal stroke.

Mike in AR:beer:

WOW!! so are the gauges a scam?? sounds like a ruler is the way??

[Bob Loblaw]

An easy way to tell if you need a new chain is to look at how it seats at the bottom of the chainring. If you can see daylight between the valleys between the teeth and the chain, it's time to replace the chain. I usually get around 2000 miles out of a chain here in sandy Connecticut.

No reason you can't replace the chain yourself. Get a chain tool and a quick link. It's easy. Just make sure the new chain is the same length as the old one.

Replacing the cables after 1500 miles doesn't make sense. OTOH, it's not a bad idea to replace them every year, even in Napa. If you have had the bike since February, your LBS might be looking at the cable age in months rather than miles. Still, I think replacing the cables at this point is overkill.

I don't think your LBS is trying to screw you necessarily, but certainly your cables are fine and that chain has probably at least another 500 miles in it.

BL

[regularguy412]

WOW!! so are the gauges a scam?? sounds like a ruler is the way??
I don't know about 'scam', 'cause at least if they're being used, the chain is being checked. I think you'd have to use one with the full knowledge of how it actually assesses the wear.

Mike in AR:beer:

[Louis]

I can assure you that this tool is not a scam when used on Shimano 9-spd chains.

New ones show good on both sides for a long, long time. Enventually a few start to fail on the 0.75 % side, then more and more, then a few on the 1.0 side, then more, then it's time to replace the chain.

Works like a champ.

http://www.parktool.com/images/products/productimages/spr_CC-3_2005727_64525.jpg

[fogrider]

yes 10 speed chains can were fast! lube up the chain! chains wear because of lack of lube. sheldon brown has a good discussion about this: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html

but changing cables! wow!

[LouDeeter]

I have a friend who trains for Ironman distance triathlons. He changes his cassette and chain every 1500 miles and gives them to me because I'll use them for another 3000 to 5000 miles. He just doesn't want the hassle of having issues while on long training rides. On cables, with a big ride coming up where you really don't want a failure to occur, like Levi's ride, I think your bike shop is trying to help you out, not necessarily because you really need the parts replaced right now, but because you don't want a failure in a big ride like you have planned.

With stainless or teflon coated cables, you should be getting 10,000 miles or more out of them. And, for the housings, unless you are getting corrosion or dirt, more than that. I know some people like to change them annually, and if you have the money, nothing wrong with that. I just think it is overkill.

I'm surprised your bike shop didn't suggest changing the cassette with the chain. If the chain is really worn, the cassette will be too.

[Pyramor]

An alternative solution to extend cassette life is to rotate chains. I have 3 chains that I rotate every 500 miles. That way the cassette and chains wear evenly. I have about 4500 miles on the set with no noticeable wear. I expect to get at least 15,000 before replacing the set, including cassette. I currently am using Sram and Shimano chains but will try KMC for the second bike when I need a third chain. Changing/cleaning a chain yourself is a great money saver. It is very easy with the master links that are available.

[Ralph]

My Park "chain checker" (the one with the % gauge CC-2) shows new chain stretch at around .25% usually on new Campy chains...SRAM also on ones I have used. And it will show stretch at around .5% on Campy 9 speed chains after a couple thousand miles the way I ride and lube them. 10 speed chain on other bike don't seem to last as long as 9 speed, but not as much difference as I had expected. I imagine 11 wears even faster. This is one reason I stick to 9 speed on my daily ride and sweat on bike. I usually ride on them until .75% wear shows. I use 2-3 chains per cassette.

I usually go thru several $3 inner Campy wires before I change out housing.

[oldpotatoe]

hopefully someone can shed some light on this subject for me..
I have a new ( February) Serotta ( classique TI) and it is in for the first tuneup prior to Levi's Gran Fondo.. it has about 1500 miles on it and my LBS tells me I need a new chain?? I trust them but how long should a chain last?? I have SRAM force XX with the pie plate cassette...they also told me new cables are a good idea ( apparently Shimano has cable issues)
They told me it is kind of in the gray area for change but if it was their bike they would change it, so I told them okay...
What is a reasonable price for a new chain.. $75 is what I was quoted...maybe this normal .. I just wasn't ready for new parts yet.. any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Measure it yourself, 12 links, pin to pin. 1/16 of an inch-replace.

There are no 'problems' with shimano cables, just their crappy 4mm housing and plastic ferrules, use brass.

Least expensive compatible chain. ALL 10s chains are the same dimension, work the same last the same, I suggest a 5700 chain or KMC, both in the $35-$0 range. No need for a $75 chain.

[godfrey1112000]

If you're not having shifting issues, don't know why you'd need new cables. I've had cables get sticky on bikes with less miles than yours, when they sat around for years unridden. All they need is taken out and cleaned. Chains should be replaced before they get to 1% "stretch". 1% of one foot is about 1/8". Note that 1/8" is about the max you can get away with. It's often recommended to replace the chain at anything over 1/16". Get a decent steel 1' ruler, you can easily tell when you need a chain. Learn to do your own basic maintenance, you'll enjoy your bike more. As to the price of the chain, $75 is about what retail price is for a SRAM 1090. You could find it cheaper, and there are other chains that would be cheaper options.

That is usually the case for me, shifting "noise" is the alarm for a new chain,
also a right shifter cable check,
mile for a change, best ever over 5500 worst about 1500
usually I run about 12k a year so the chains are about 3 per year
I pull the bottom bracket one time per season after about 7-8k miles and every spring

[Dave]

Those chain checker tools are nearly all poor prdoducts. The percentage elongation that's recommended for changing is .5% or 1/16 inch over 12 inches.

Most chains tools will show a Shimano or SRAM chain (not Campy) to be elongated by about .25% when new. They aren't of course, but difference in the roller diameter and clearances make the gage read incorrectly. When worn, the chain checker further exaggerates the wear by adding the wear on two rollers to the the reading. That wear can be as much as the actual elongation. The result is that 1% elongation on one of those gages is probably less the .5%, if measured properly, with a precision rule. Use a precision rule to get far better accuracy.

Campy chains are a different animal. They can be shot, even with very little elongation. Campy chains usually exhibit far less elongation than the other brands, but the rollers still wear at a similar rate. Campy has a recommendation to change a chain when a caliper reading between rollers increases from 5.200 inch to 5.220 inch. I may take the chain off and exchange it for a new one at that point, but I don't trash it. I keep it for another go-around in a 3-chain rotation. I'll trash the chain at about 5.240 inches, or .240 between any pair of rollers.

As for using a chain for 7,000 miles, you can do that, but your cassette will mostly likely skip when you install a second new chain. I expect to get far more life from a cassette - at least 3 chains or 12-15,000 miles.

[gone]

yeah I ride here in the napa valley.. not much wet or dirt.. wipe chain after each ride...they used some kind of gauge and it showed a bit more then 50% wear??
Angry.. I think you are right time for a repair book and a stand :)

the thing is I trust the owner and trained for an Ironman with his wife so we are kind of friends.. but my first thought was rip off...I mean I try not to cross chain and it is basically new ?? Thanks for the info..

I agree with everyone else here that new cables & housings are overkill and that you more than likely don't need a new chain given your description of your riding and maintenance habits.

However, trying to be generous, perhaps the owner who is your friend knows the ride is an important one to you and wants to make sure you don't have any bike related issues at all. New chain? Smooth shifting. New cables & housings? Little to no chance of a cable breaking and smooth shifting and braking.

As I said, I'm deliberately trying to find an explanation other than your friend is trying to screw you.

I'll second the advice for learning how to do this stuff yourself. It's easy, cheaper and satisfying. You don't need to buy a welder and build your own bike from scratch - just the simple things: check & install a new chain, install cables, adjust derailleurs, etc.

Good luck and enjoy your ride at the Gran Fondo.

[rustychain]

Rider weight is also an issue. At 95 kilos I wear out Campag chains at around 2000 to 2500 miles. I keep my chain very clean and lubed. I ride often in the mountains and on a good day can sprint at 1500watts. Scram chains wear faster from my experience. Replacement the chain could be warranted. I suspect they feel you will not be back for another year and by then you could possibly damage your cassette.

[tribuddha]

I agree with everyone else here that new cables & housings are overkill and that you more than likely don't need a new chain given your description of your riding and maintenance habits.

However, trying to be generous, perhaps the owner who is your friend knows the ride is an important one to you and wants to make sure you don't have any bike related issues at all. New chain? Smooth shifting. New cables & housings? Little to no chance of a cable breaking and smooth shifting and braking.

As I said, I'm deliberately trying to find an explanation other than your friend is trying to screw you.

I'll second the advice for learning how to do this stuff yourself. It's easy, cheaper and satisfying. You don't need to buy a welder and build your own bike from scratch - just the simple things: check & install a new chain, install cables, adjust derailleurs, etc.

Good luck and enjoy your ride at the Gran Fondo.

Thanks to all I think you are right if this was his bike he would not want a hassle out on the ride and better safe then sorry.. it is a good bike shop.. best in the Napa Valley!!

[toaster]

Anybody use this?

[Squint]

Yeah, I got one a few weeks ago as did one of my friends. I find it easier to use than rulers. I always had trouble lining up the pins with the marks on the ruler while keeping the chain tensioned.

It doesn't give false positives on brand new chains or chains that aren't yet ready for replacement like my previous chain wear tools did.

[AndrewS]

I don't think chain checkers are bad - but don't read into what they tell you. They are go/no-go tools. Ride until the chain is bordering on no-go.

Just because something reads 25% or 50% worn, that doesn't mean that it's predicting when the chain WILL BE worn out.

I like $30 KMC 10 chains, too.

[AndrewS]

Also, I don't know why unkinked, unbroken, uncracked cables or housing would need regular replacement, especially based on mileage. Especially brake cables on a road bike.

It does sound like a fantastic way to make money on brake and derailleur adjustments.

Lubing cables on modern bikes is so easy, and doesn't involve undoing any cable adjustments.

[palincss]

It does sound like a fantastic way to make money on brake and derailleur adjustments.


Yes, and it's so very easy to say "Now, you don't want to have any issues on that century you've got coming up, do you?"

[Dave]

I don't think chain checkers are bad - but don't read into what they tell you. They are go/no-go tools. Ride until the chain is bordering on no-go.

Just because something reads 25% or 50% worn, that doesn't mean that it's predicting when the chain WILL BE worn out.

I like $30 KMC 10 chains, too.


The go/no-go tools have all the flaws of those that display wear values. When the tool says the chain is worn out, it's not measuring elongation, it measure a lot of roller wear and false wear due to roller spacing differences. It will read a new chain to be half way Worn out and worn out when it's about half way there.

[AndrewS]

Well, we've had this discussion, Dave. I won't go down the road of talking about the geometry of a chain wrapped around a circular cog again. I'll just stand on my assertion that whatever makes the rollers measure out of spec (rivet wear or link stretch) is going to put additional wear on your cassette.

The cassette doesn't know why the rollers are seating unevenly - it just gets worn by them.

[Squint]

http://www.fototime.com/7256FF8B56A1333/orig.jpg

[Mark McM]

http://www.fototime.com/7256FF8B56A1333/orig.jpg

That's a great drawing. I think the only thing missing is showing how the chain engages with the teeth on the chainring or sprocket, which could be illustrative of how chain wear should be measured.

In actual use, the chainring teeth engage only the backs of the rollers (pushing the rollers forward agains the bushings), and never against the fronts of the rollers (never pushing backwards against the bushings. Most chain tools measure the chain by pushing forward against one roller and backwards against another, but this doesn't make sense, since the teeth on the chainring (or sprocket) never do this. Only the Shimano tool makes its measurement by measuring against the same side of two different rollers (similar to the way a chainring or sprocket engages the chain), as is shown in the drawing.

[Dave]

Well, we've had this discussion, Dave. I won't go down the road of talking about the geometry of a chain wrapped around a circular cog again. I'll just stand on my assertion that whatever makes the rollers measure out of spec (rivet wear or link stretch) is going to put additional wear on your cassette.

The cassette doesn't know why the rollers are seating unevenly - it just gets worn by them.

The roller wear is typically 10 times greater than pin/bushing wear. The roller wear added at each end of the flawed attempt at measuring elongation may be just as large as the actual elongation. The result is a report of twice the actual elongation. A person using a precison rule to meaure elongation would not see or consider the roller wear and would be following the recommendation to change a chain at .5% elongation. Users of most chain tools are tossing chains with far less than .5% elongation, unless they know of the flawed report by these tools and use the chain until the tool reports 1% elongation.

As I told you before, it is also possible to wear cogs to the point that they will not mate with a new chain, even if the only chain used with the cassette never comes close to having .5% elongation. That's an unusual situation, but it can be quite common with Campy chains that elongate little. In that case it's the cog becoming worn to the shape of the reduced diameter roller that makes it reject a new chain. That and the fact that cogs still wear out, no matter how often a chain is replaced. I've worn out Ti cogs in as little as 4,000 miles with a chain having about .1% elongation and rollers that were not severely worn. Ti cogs, used for many miles with the high tension created by a 28T little ring will not last long at all.

[Ralph]

I understand what you guys mean. My Park CC-2 checker says new chain .25-.5% and to replace chain at 1% elongation. Of course....it doesn't say what kind of wear. I just use it as a reminder to take a good look at the chain. My checker is the one where you push it against two rollers, and the gauge swings out so you can read it. It seems to me some of this "elongation" is actually some of the width between the outside plates, and a wider chain such as 7-8 speed would automatically measure more elongation than a more narrow 11's chain. It doesn't exactly measure center to center. You gotta use your head a little when you use these tools.

[AndrewS]

If you believe that elongation is the only important factor in wear, by all means, just measure elongation.

If you understand the argument that the worn rollers allow the chain to space wrong on the cog teeth, then you pay attention to roller wear.


The most expensive chain I buy are $30 KMC 10s, so maybe I'm not making this hard enough.

[Dave]

I understand what you guys mean. My Park CC-2 checker says new chain .25-.5% and to replace chain at 1% elongation. Of course....it doesn't say what kind of wear. I just use it as a reminder to take a good look at the chain. My checker is the one where you push it against two rollers, and the gauge swings out so you can read it. It seems to me some of this "elongation" is actually some of the width between the outside plates, and a wider chain such as 7-8 speed would automatically measure more elongation than a more narrow 11's chain. It doesn't exactly measure center to center. You gotta use your head a little when you use these tools.

All modern derailleur chains have the same .500 inch pitch. Any gage that measures a 7 speed chain accurately would measure an 11 speed just as well, unless the measuring tips are too thick to fit between the 11 speed rollers. If there is extra width, you're supposed to keep the tips held against one side of the chain, so it will be measuring parallel to the chain.

Ordinary calipers with internal tips can also be used. When new, chains measure between .200 and .215 inch between the rollers. Campy recommends changing a chain when a caliper reading between the rollers increases from it's original 5.200 inch to 5.220 inch. If this dimensions was used with a chain that measured 5.210-5.215 when new, you wouldn't get much use from it at all. Even with a Campy chain, you might get to that reading in 2,000-2,500 miles. I might change to another new chain at that point, but I consider it to be about half worn at that point.

[Dave]

If you believe that elongation is the only important factor in wear, by all means, just measure elongation.

If you understand the argument that the worn rollers allow the chain to space wrong on the cog teeth, then you pay attention to roller wear.


The most expensive chain I buy are $30 KMC 10s, so maybe I'm not making this hard enough.

With those low level KMC chains, they will elongate to .5% before the rollers are shot, so there is no need to measure roller wear. A 12" rule will tell you when to change the chain. In my wear tests of KMC chains, that took 3500-4000 miles.

[AndrewS]

With those low level KMC chains, they will elongate to .5% before the rollers are shot, so there is no need to measure roller wear. A 12" rule will tell you when to change the chain. In my wear tests of KMC chains, that took 3500-4000 miles.
Terrific. I'll add the much admired KMC chain to the list of crummy, fast wearing chains that are available for Shimano and SRAM. Because someone hates all of them.

But right now, I have a Wipperman on my (strangely quiet) SRAM cassette, so I'll continue showing my ignorance by using the simple and cheap Park tool to watch for worn (not 'wearing') chains.

[Habanero]

hopefully someone can shed some light on this subject for me..
I have a new ( February) Serotta ( classique TI) and it is in for the first tuneup prior to Levi's Gran Fondo.. it has about 1500 miles on it and my LBS tells me I need a new chain?? I trust them but how long should a chain last?? I have SRAM force XX with the pie plate cassette...they also told me new cables are a good idea ( apparently Shimano has cable issues)
They told me it is kind of in the gray area for change but if it was their bike they would change it, so I told them okay...
What is a reasonable price for a new chain.. $75 is what I was quoted...maybe this normal .. I just wasn't ready for new parts yet.. any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

As someone else put just measure 12 links to check for chain elongation. Also get the park tool to check for roller wear which is like $10 or $15. Cable replacement is needed once a year at most, no way you need it after 1500 miles unless the housings or cables have somehow been torn or frayed.