chris king and campy

[firerescuefin]

Can someone tell me why they won't make a Campy compatible free hub. Their answer seems to be a line of bs. Did Mr. Campy steal his.girlfriend on his trip abroad as a youngster?

[AngryScientist]

i wonder the same thing often.

its seems as a baseless generalization that the folks who buy campy have an eye for well made, tough as nails, and aesthetically pleasing stuff, right up the king alley, why are they shutting down that potential market, i have no idea.

you definitely have the leading theory with Mrs. King shacking up with the boys in the campy bus.

[veloduffer]

I would guess that CK is uncomfortable with designing a hub to accommodate the extra dish needed for Campy's drivetrain. CK doesn't like integrated headsets either.

[Ralph]

Maybe the size of the Campy market isn't large enough.

[nahtnoj]

The size of the Campy market is small, and the size of the road market is small relative to their MTB sales.

I bet it is something on the order of 5% of 10%.

[Dave B]

Ironically King rides a campy equipped bike, just uses a cassette that works on his splines with campy spacing.

[JMerring]

Ironically King rides a campy equipped bike, just uses a cassette that works on his splines with campy spacing.

of course he does - he has an appreciation for the best that life has to offer. :)

[ergott]

The bearings they use in the current freehub body are too big (outer diameter) to fit inside a Campagnolo freehub body because Campy uses deeper splines. Their answer as to why not is that they don't feel comfortable using smaller bearings to accommodate the splines.

They are great people. I think that everyone that wants King hubs for Campagnolo should call them and ask. Business is business. If enough people ask who knows, maybe they will bow to market pressure and make them.
:beer:

Then call up the folks at Phil Wood and demand the same.

[bshell]

ergott has the actual answer.

And I'll pose this question...why doesn't campy re-evaluate their splines/freehub body? In 22 years of cycling (limited wheel sample size, admittedly) the only freehubs I've had problems with were campy Neutrons. They split lengthwise along the spline.

Been using King on Mtn/CX since the early nineties. Even started using King with Campy 10sp on my CX @ 2 years ago. Certainly not 'perfect' but I've got thousands of happy miles on them.....

[ergott]

why doesn't campy re-evaluate their splines/freehub body?



That would be a better solution. It would only make their wheels better.

-Eric

[derosa_guy]

the only freehubs I've had problems with were campy Neutrons. They split lengthwise along the spline.

I've never had this problem with the Neutron freehubs, but I do keep cooking the bearings, which require a complete freehub replacement. I'm fine with doing service on my stuff, and nothing lasts forever, but $80 every 5k miles kinda stinks. I think King has it right with the bearing size.

[firerescuefin]

The bearings they use in the current freehub body are too big (outer diameter) to fit inside a Campagnolo freehub body because Campy uses deeper splines. Their answer as to why not is that they don't feel comfortable using smaller bearings to accommodate the splines.

They are great people. I think that everyone that wants King hubs for Campagnolo should call them and ask. Business is business. If enough people ask who knows, maybe they will bow to market pressure and make them.
:beer:

Then call up the folks at Phil Wood and demand the same.


Eric...although my urban legend of Mr. Campy hooking up with King's highschool sweetheart...(and therefore no Campy support) was juicier, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I have sent numerous e-mails to King, because I love their stuff, but am not going to run an adapter cassette with my current Campy Record drivetrain.

[AndrewS]

It's not like they are the only one making nice hubs. I keep hearing more and more good things about White.

[firerescuefin]

It's not like they are the only one making nice hubs. I keep hearing more and more good things about White.

Andrew....maybe so, but can White's hubs be described as below

"It rolls good with angry bee sound"

As told to Chris King customer service by Akiyoshi Takamura, a Japanese rider and King customer....now made into a Chris King T-shirt.



http://chrisking.com/store/t_shirts/t_angrybee

[AndrewS]

No... but they are shiny, and bulge in the middle like the proverbial "wax tadpole".

(Also, $100 cheaper.)

[ergott]

White Industries is real tough to beat.

[Marcusaurelius]

As other have already said, when you are only 5% you will not get the same attention or consideration if you are 95%.

I had hoped that campagnolo would redisgn their cassettes and hubs and make things a little easier but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[firerescuefin]

King has a great article on his website regarding internal headsets (and why he wouldn't support the trend), so I knew he had to have a reason. King is not a high volume producer, and there would be a decent market for his hubs if he made them Campy compatible, so I am not buying the 5% argument. Kudos to him for designing a product that he believes in (both in design and application).

[prometheus20]

It is too bad that King and Campy will probably never get along. They both make great stuff. But as has been stated, White Industries is just as good. I have a set of them and they are gorgeous shiny silver alloy and they perform as well as they look

[ultratoad]

I love Chris King stuff (top drawer) and I am also a Campy guy. If he made Campy compatable hubs they would be on my bikes-- period....

[d_douglas]

I am the person who mentioned on this forum that I had spoken with a King rep about 18 months ago re: Campy compatibility and he honestly said they were in the works.

I was hoping that it would come this Interbike, but I think we will be waiting for next year's event. Personally, I think that if they have redesigned the road hubs, then Campyifying them MUST be in the works. How many other manufacturers give the choice? - King is obviously making a conscious decision to hold back as it cannot be a limit of technology.

The anticipation is actually good because I resist buying other wheels, keeping in mind that ONE day in the not-too-distant-future I will be able to pay an exhorbitant amount of money for these hubs!

Happy waiting, y'all . . . . .




I love Chris King stuff (top drawer) and I am also a Campy guy. If he made Campy compatable hubs they would be on my bikes-- period....

[ergott]

Campy compatibility and he honestly said they were in the works.


At this point then they must be flat out lying when they say they are "working on it". It's not that difficult. They did a hub redesign and left out Campagnolo. I preferred it when they simply said they didn't want to. I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in the company if they were actually trying to do it, but it was taking this long. It's not rocket science here.

[oldpotatoe]

At this point then they must be flat out lying when they say they are "working on it". It's not that difficult. They did a hub redesign and left out Campagnolo. I preferred it when they simply said they didn't want to. I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in the company if they were actually trying to do it, but it was taking this long. It's not rocket science here.

I agree. They are in love with their very complicated, $50 answer to a $10 question, spline drive and unless they abandon that(a good thing if you ask me, OVH these hubs is a huge job), you won't see a Campagnolo compatible rear hub. I looked at White and also Alchemy. Not a fan of the White, set screw driven into a aluminum axle for security, but pretty when new. Still like DT, 240s tough to beat and there are still Campagnolo 32h hubs. I talked to the head of Campagnolo, NA...no other hubs, they want you to buy their wheels..too bad.

Alchemy have the best design. 5 bearings, optimized flange placement specific to wheelbuilding but lots of $-$425 for a rear hub.

[d_douglas]

I am quite sure that they have tried (and likely have succeeded), but for some reason, they resist releasing it.

As you said, it is not a difficult task for people in the industry. If you can make a great Shimano hub, you can make a few changes and make a Campy version as well.

There are other alternatives out there, but I simply think King hubs are nice, tightly-wound pieces of engineering. I personally use silver Record hubs on both my road bikes and I know they are great quality, but something within me yearns for a King wheelset - what can I say?



At this point then they must be flat out lying when they say they are "working on it". It's not that difficult. They did a hub redesign and left out Campagnolo. I preferred it when they simply said they didn't want to. I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in the company if they were actually trying to do it, but it was taking this long. It's not rocket science here.

[champ]

+1 on the extra dish required for the rear hub versus Shimano. The King sales rep told me that was the real reason they dont make Campy hubs.

[sg8357]

+1 on the extra dish required for the rear hub versus Shimano. The King sales rep told me that was the real reason they dont make Campy hubs.

How about a 135mm Campy-King ?
Campy is popular with tourists and re-enactors.

While they're at it at 120mm cassette hub would be nice.

[AndrewS]

+1 on the extra dish required for the rear hub versus Shimano. The King sales rep told me that was the real reason they dont make Campy hubs.
Well, is this an actual problem, or not? Are people having more spoke tension related problems with Campy-hubbed wheels than others?

[Ralph]

Well, is this an actual problem, or not? Are people having more spoke tension related problems with Campy-hubbed wheels than others?

I've never had a problem with Campy hubs. My wheel builder doesn't see what the big deal is either.

[rugbysecondrow]

As a follow up, what are recommended cassettes that work on shimano cassette body, but are campy spaced/compatible? Would there be any dishing or anything funky needed, or just put on and ride?

Thanks,

Paul

[dumbod]

ergott has the actual answer.

And I'll pose this question...why doesn't campy re-evaluate their splines/freehub body?

What? There's something wrong with Campy??

Blasphemy.

Blasphemer.

Burn him at the stake.

[AndrewS]

I looked around a little when this thread first popped, and didn't get the impression that there were any 11 speed Campy-compatible cassettes for Shimano hubs (the hangover inner cog is the problem). Which might be okay for some people, but I imagine a lot of folks looking for new custom wheels with $500 hubs are using Athena or better.

[rugbysecondrow]

I looked around a little when this thread first popped, and didn't get the impression that there were any 11 speed Campy-compatible cassettes for Shimano hubs (the hangover inner cog is the problem). Which might be okay for some people, but I imagine a lot of folks looking for new custom wheels with $500 hubs are using Athena or better.


Do you know if the problem is the same for 10spd campy?

Thanks

[AndrewS]

Well, American Classic and others have made Campy spaced 10 speed cassettes for Shimano freehubs for awhile. Is that what you're asking?

I don't think anyone has done it, yet, with Campy 11 speed, because the majority of Shimano style hubs have too little distance from flange to axel end to fit the 11 cogs. Every switchable hub I've seen either has additional flange clearance built in (like White does), or somehow respaces the axel to move the whole hub body over to the left. Many modern hubs can't be easily respaced.

So any 11 adapter cassette for Shimano would either have to be built for a White hub (with room for inner cog hangover) or for a respaced hub and have the outer cog hang over. That's kind of a disaster, so I doubt we'll see an 11 speed adapter, but none of those issues relate to 10 speed Campy adapters.

[oldpotatoe]

Well, is this an actual problem, or not? Are people having more spoke tension related problems with Campy-hubbed wheels than others?

No, this is an often repeated but not true 'problem'.I have build thousands of wheels, many on Campagnolo hubs, and that 1-2mm difference of RH flange makes no difference in terms of a reliable wheel. Well designed and buolt wheels, whether they be a shimano or Campagnolo compatible hub, makes a reliable wheel. Poor design-light rims, thin spokes, too few spokes. goofy lacings, for big riders or riders that have poor cycling skills, make for more unreliable wheels. But this from a conservative wheelbuilder. Hard to beat a nice rim, enough spokes, built well. Those 200=300 grams saved , in a 80,000+ gram 'package' means nada. Breaking a wheel during a ride means lots.

[Dave]

Campy wisely redesigned their hubs back in 1999, making the splines deeper so the cassette body would be durable when made of aluminum. They also changed to an oversize aluminum axle to further reduce weight. I've had no problem at all with any Campy/Fulcrum wheelset purchased since then. A current Campy rear hub is one of the lightest and most durable that you'll find. Campy uses a pair of standard cartidge bearings at the right end of the cassette body.

The shimano spline in the one that's flawed. It's too shallow to hold up when made of aluminum. That's why Shimano uses steel or Ti. They tried a spline redesign with DA7800, but apparently it had problems, since it was discontinued quickly.

[AndrewS]

Well, if Shimano wants to get on the super expensive chain tool, finicky cable tension 11 speed bandwagon, they're going to have to redesign their freehubs, and maybe go Campy deep-spline in the process.

While not perfect, I'd prefer they just keep the current spline and 10 with Ti bodies until a non-chain system comes along, but I'm sure the march of "progress" won't allow that.

[GPrince]

I'm running King wheels with 8 speed shimano drivetrain and cassette talking to 10 speed ergo...Works great (google "shimergo"). Have also done same with 8 speed shimano cassette respaced to 8 sp campy with ergo cog change and campy drivetrain. 8 speed stuff is cheap.

Where there's a will there's a way.

[AndrewS]

I'm running King wheels with 8 speed shimano drivetrain and cassette talking to 10 speed ergo...Works great (google "shimergo"). Have also done same with 8 speed shimano cassette respaced to 8 sp campy with ergo cog change and campy drivetrain. 8 speed stuff is cheap.

Where there's a will there's a way.
No amount of will is going to cram 11 cogs on a Shimano freehub body.

[Mark McM]

No amount of will is going to cram 11 cogs on a Shimano freehub body.

Shimano has pair of patents (for cassette and chain) for cramming 14 cogs onto a freehub body:

http://www.campyonly.com/images/shimano/shimano_14_cass.gif

http://www.campyonly.com/images/shimano/shimano_14_chain.gif

[AndrewS]

Sure. What does that have to do with one of us trying to mount 11 speeds on a CK freehub?

[bfd]

I've never had this problem with the Neutron freehubs, but I do keep cooking the bearings, which require a complete freehub replacement. I'm fine with doing service on my stuff, and nothing lasts forever, but $80 every 5k miles kinda stinks. I think King has it right with the bearing size.

What are you getting for your $80? If it is bearings, are you using official Campy bearings? I believe Campy rear hubs, including the Neutron, uses standard 5/32" ball bearings. Replace with Grade 25 bearings and ride!

Btw, my LBS sells 5/32" grade 25 bearings for something like $0.05 or 0.10 each. Even at $10 cents each, multiplied by 20 or 25 bearings and that only $2.50.

Note, if you have to use only official Campy bearings, Mike Kone sells them in packs of 50 under "track headset bearings" for $5.25:

http://www.renehersestore.com/servlet/the-210/Campagnolo-5-fdsh-32-ball-bearings/Detail

[AndrewS]

I would have thought they used cartridge bearings. :confused:

[Mark McM]

I would have thought they used cartridge bearings. :confused:

Current Campagnolo hubs use a seperable angular contact (cup and cone) cartridge bearing. Angular contact bearings are superior in this application than the radial bearings used in most cartridge bearing hubs.

[Ralph]

My only complaint with my almost new black Record hubs is I can't get them in less than 32 hole. They are so easy to service. Otherwise....I don't understand why anyone wouldn't use them on a 32 hole wheel. And from Ribble and others....they are much cheaper than White, DT, etc, and they come with nice skewers.

[AndrewS]

Current Campagnolo hubs use a seperable angular contact (cup and cone) cartridge bearing. Angular contact bearings are superior in this application than the radial bearings used in most cartridge bearing hubs.
So should they cost $80 to overhaul?

[Mark McM]

So should they cost $80 to overhaul?

The '$80 bearing overhaul' has been taken out of context. derosa_guy was complaining that the freehub body bearings on his Neutron wheels were going every 5K miles, and that it required an complete freehub body replacement for $80 - he wasn't talking about a standard hub overhaul (I'm not sure what is going on with his Neutron freehub, but it is unusual for the freehub bearings to go with that regularity - I've got more mileage than that on several Campagnolo freehubs, and I've never had the freehub body bearings go).

As bfd indicates replacing the axle bearing balls for a standard hub overall is just a few bucks.

[AndrewS]

Ah, BFD and I both misunderstood the problem, I think. Thanks.

[bfd]

The '$80 bearing overhaul' has been taken out of context. derosa_guy was complaining that the freehub body bearings on his Neutron wheels were going every 5K miles, and that it required an complete freehub body replacement for $80 - he wasn't talking about a standard hub overhaul (I'm not sure what is going on with his Neutron freehub, but it is unusual for the freehub bearings to go with that regularity - I've got more mileage than that on several Campagnolo freehubs, and I've never had the freehub body bearings go).

As bfd indicates replacing the axle bearing balls for a standard hub overall is just a few bucks.

Thanks for the clarification. I immediately thought of the axle bearings as I've never heard of the freehub body needing replacement. I agree that if he is replacing them every 5K miles, something else is going on as that is way too soon.

Actually, if he uses a Record freehub body, there should be an oiling port in it. May be he needs to oil the hub before using? Good Luck!

[oldpotatoe]

So should they cost $80 to overhaul?

They don't. As mentioned, 30 5/32 bearing balls and 'maybe' a cart bearing for the freehub body. I've replaced many outboard freehub bearings, never needed to replace the inner one. I sell US made cart bearings for $10. Grade 25 bearing balls for $.10 each. $25 labor for a rear hub, which the OP says he does himself. Cones can be pricey tho. Sounds like a place is just saying 'replace the freehub body', too bad, not needed.