dog help needed--SANDY, HELP

[Ken Robb]

what cures an adult 8 year old dog from peeing wherever and when ever he lkes besides a .45?

[dirtdigger88]

give em a pee rug-

we have a 13 year old dog that has some bladder problems- he has one rug in the basement that if he wets on its ok- anywhere else in the house he is in trouble- 9 times out of 10 he uses his rug- at least the other time he goes on the tile in the kitchen

Jason

[OldDog]

I had a female Springer who peed on command. I'd say "pee Babe" and, she would try even if she had nothing left. I had a neighbor who was/is a real s.o.b. and if Babe ran loose in his yard he would have a fit. One time she got out when we were in the yard, and the neighbor in his and she went to greet him. He was screaming at me about the dog, as she sat at his feet. I said "pee Babe', she did, on his foot. It was great, ya had to be there :banana:

[Rapid Tourist]

try www.barkbusters.com. They are dog behavioral therapists (I'm serious). Maybe you could send them an email and get some suggestions.

[M_A_Martin]

New to you dog? Or one you've had a while?

What size dog is he? (Some dogs are older than others at certain ages.)

Is this a change in behavior?

Look back to several months before you noticed the behavior, has anything changed in the house? People, furniture, neighbors, new pets, neighbor's new pets, nearby construction, loss of a favorite person/toy etc.

Have you taken him to the vet for a physical? There may be a medical reason he can't hold it any more. (I had the sweetest rescue dog who refused to be housetrained, turns out he had addison's disease...probably not your dog's problem, but it could be something like that that's not apparent.)

If there's no changes that you can think of, and his medical issues check out ok, perhaps your vet knows an animal behavioralist who can help.


I'm not a Sandy...but I play one on TV...Oh hold it...maybe not.


Old Dog...Sweet old springers are the best doggies...and teaching a dog to do it's jobs on command is so easy I don't know why everyone doesn't do it! It makes walks so much more convenient.

[OldDog]

I'm not a Sandy either, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.








Booooo...I know, it's getting late and I'm getting goofy.

[M_A_Martin]

Ken must have two dogs with issues...

:)

[bulliedawg]

what cures an adult 8 year old dog from peeing wherever and when ever he lkes besides a .45?

Intact?

[Sandy]

I love dogs and love interacting with them, but I am no expert at all, in any way.

But, I would do the following:

1. Take your dog immediately to the vet, tell him or her the problem, and let the vet examine the dog and run the appropriate tests, including blood tests.
Often certain physical problems in dogs are more often found in certain breeds, and your vet would have a handle on that. Often certain breeds have a high incidence of some ailments.You MUST rule out any physical problem the dog is having and thus you MUST take the dog to a vet. I would bet the dog has some sort of physical problem, as other posters have alluded to. If you were older and sick, you wouldn't want to be sent to a room to stay, I would assume.

2. If it is not a physical problem, then ask the vet what he suggests, as he or she certainly has seen this problem many times, as it certainly is not uncommon.

3. If the problem is not physical and the vet cannot help, then I would definitely contact a dog behaviorist and have the behaviorist actually come out to your home and talk to you and observe the dog. There are many reasons why dogs urinate. Submissive behavior, stress,.... Rapid Tourist's suggestion to email a dog behaviorist is excellent. I believe that there is possibly a service related to Tufts University Vet School that has a service like that, but you pay for it. I think that a Dr. Dunbar is associated with it.

4. Go to the web and look up health issues for dogs, and in particular Springer Spaniels and urinary problems.

TAKE YOUR DOG IMMEDIATELY TO A VET. TO SIMPLY PUT HIM OR HER IN A GARAGE IS TOTALLY UNFAIR AND INSENSITIVE TO THE DOG AND ALL IT DOES IS SEND THE PROBLEM TO ANOTHER ROOM AND NOT SOLVE IT.

Please let us know what you do and how the dog is doing.

Bow Wow Sandy

[Sandy]

Now if you are having any kind of problems, I would be glad to be your therapist at no cost. Now, it might require a physical exam..... Oh never mind.... :) :)

Sneaky Surgeon Sandy

[Sandy]

As a last resort, a .45 is ok to use. I do assume that you would be using it on yourself and not your Springer Spaniel!! :)

Saving Springer Spaniels Shotgun Sandy

[Sandy]

Go to www.google.com and do a search on "urination problems in Springer Spaniels". There are some good sources. In one source, I just read that incontinence is found more often in certain breeds, which include older female Springer Spaniels.

Sandy

[Ken Robb]

don't know where the Springer got started--I got a package deal 2 years ago--one wife and 2 Bichon Frises. My last dogf was a Labrador who would always "go potty" on command. These are 2 altetred males who see the vet monthly. The 8 year old is the problem--not the 7 year old. I'm sure it's a mental problem as he held it today through our walk while his brother peed a bunch. We sat in a chair (me and the 2 dogs) then he got up and peed on the floor. This has been an increasingly commomn occurance and I'm out of ideas and patience.

[Louis]

I'm hardly an expert on this stuff, but it sounds to me like he's unhappy about something, and since he can't tell you verbally he's telling you this way.

About the only other thing I would suggest is to give him a chance by taking him to an animal behavior expert to see if s/he can help.

Louis

[mad_mark]

I'd be willing to bet there's people that would use a .45 on one Springer.....first name Jerry.

[Sandy]

You certainly appear frustrated. Did you actually take the dog to the vet and specifically ask the vet about the problem??

Sandy

[Sandy]

I am a non-violent man, but with Jerry Springer, I would have to give it a little consideration. I really think that his shows are really a remarkable disservice to people, especially kids, if they are so unfortunate to see them. I often wonder how much of it is even real.

Kevan and I are going to be on one of his shows in June, 2005. It is on people and their specially trained pets. I am not sure if I am going to be a person or the pet. :)

Sandy

[Sandy]

Sorry. Olddog mentioned Springer Spaniel. I thought that it was you.

Sandy

[mad_mark]

I am a non-violent man, but with Jerry Springer, I would have to give it a little consideration. I really think that his shows are really a remarkable disservice to people, especially kids, if they are so unfortunate to see them. I often wonder how much of it is even real.

Kevan and I are going to be on one of his shows in June, 2005. It is on people and their specially trained pets. I am not sure if I am going to be a person or the pet. :)

Sandy

Hey I said people, I wasn't talking about myself. Only watched it once to see what the fuss was about (I was bored too). I wouldn't hurt a fly, unless I couldn't get it to go out the window and it was bugging me cronically. I think it's nuts (Jerry), but as it's been going so long, I would think someone would sell the story to a tabloid on how it's a setup if that were the case by now.

When you and Kevan are on, I'll watch just to see if Ben is going to cringe at the brand exposure :p

Mark.

[gasman]

I think Sandy gave some good advice have you talked to the vet about the problem on your monthly visits ? If there is nothing physical then go with the behavior mod, in spite of him being "in control" when walking there may really be a problem.

[Too Tall]

Our Poodles all came with 24X7 support from the breeder...she is a sort of poodle maniac. Anywho, the advice she gave as follows:
- restrict water at critical times. Give enough overall but restrict before leaving them alone or evenings.
- going outside is for peeing and pooping not playtime this with a command "out back" etc.
- immediate reward for peeing / pooping with command "good pee" etc.
- crate them when unsupervised

Sandy's the man man. Could be your dog has an organic issue ranging from cystitis to diabetes...sure hope all is ok. Good Luck.

[jeffg]

except one or two days she peed inside and not on a walk. I was about to give her another very stern talking to (which always resulted in a very sad flat ears from the noble Bouv), when I decided to take her to the vet. It turns out she had a urinary tract infection!

So I took her home, apologized for scolding her, and nursed her back to health.

As for a .45, it's what I was momentarily tempted to use when she finally passed away in my arms ...

[No Circles]

All of a sudden I had this with a Lab. Vet is the best choice. Insulin shots for the dog but she lived a long time with it.

[bostondrunk]

OK, what if I, uh, have, uh, a friend, who is an adult and can't stop wetting his bed? Any advice for me.....er...to give to him?

[M_A_Martin]

Well Boston Drunk, if you've got to roll over in the wet spot, I'd suggest you do something with the .45...

(Colt 45 that is...)

The whole restricting fluids before bedtime should help...

[M_A_Martin]

On the dog, I'd say it sounds like a vet issue...get the blood work done. I say this because if the dog has an issue like diabetes or addison's, getting the blood work done now is a lot cheaper than the hospital bill when the dog "crashes" and the vet needs to keep it on IV for a week to bring it around.

[OldDog]

Sorry. Olddog mentioned Springer Spaniel. I thought that it was you.

Sandy

Springer was from me. My favorite breed. Babe was my best bird dog.

MA - yes, when it comes to dogs, I do have issues. I think I may have been a springer in a previous life....I have this habit of scratching my ear with my right foot. Ahhh, and Snasausages......

[Sandy]

I understand that your breeder (I mean your dog's breeder) was giving you ideas to help you in housebreaking your dog (I assume), but as this is an older dog with probable physical or mental problems, the applicability of those excellent suggestions probably does not apply too much here, especially the crating idea.

Some dogs really like using a crate. It is their own little den and secure place. Dogs tend not to soil their own crate and hence that is a real help in housebreaking the dog. But this might just be a dog with some ailment, so placing him in a crate might not be very fair and productive. Some dogs do very poorly in a crate, especially if the dog is not used to such. In certain situations like separation anxiety, crating a dog can be torture for the dog and may be couterproductive, to say the least.

Until time that the cause of the problem is determined, I would not start crating the dog. IU would start with the vet- Going there with the dog and directing the concern of the urination problem with the vet.

It must be understood that I have no expertise in anything relating to dogs, and have read a little, but very little, so my comments might not be too applicable relative to any concern. I have walked a lot of dogs at the shelter and am pretty good at doing that, I think. But that is all.

Dogs ar really great, I must add.

Bow Wow Sandy

[Ken Robb]

I appreciate all the good advice. Both dogs have full-on health insurance and have been checked for issues that could cause this problem several times over the past 2 years.
Yesterday I took them for their mid-day walk which is followed by lunch. The good dog did what hes' supposed to on this walk--the "other" dog wouldn't even go near a bush despite me leading him to his favorite spot.
We went back to the house--good dog got lunch--"other" dog put on patio for safety. 20 minutes later I took "other" dog outside again---he did the water thing, I praised him, took him home and fed him. ALLRIGHT!!!!!!!! progress--positive reinforcement, yeay!
I sit in my favorite chair with one dog wedged in on either side of me while I work on the laptop and all is well. An hour later the "other" dog got down walked across the room and peed on the rug.
To say I'm frustrated doesn't do justice to my ire.
I have always loved dogs and have had several that were very civilized after routine training but this one is beyond me.
Clearly he is unhappy about something. :crap:

[Sandy]

How long has the dog had the problem? I know that you have the dogs at the vet on a very regular basis, but have you actually discussed the issue with the vet after the issue started?

Also, please don't take this wrong as I KNOW that you are very frustrated and discouraged. You refer to one dog as the good dog and the dog with the problem as the "other" dog. You undoubtedly have much better feelings about the good dog, and perhaps the problem dog is being admonished in a manner that only perpetuates and/or increases the problem.

You should realize that you should not admonish a dog except if you do it very very close to the time of the infraction. He won't have a clue as to why you are upset with him. Dogs are superb in reading body language, of other dogs and humans. Just because a dog reacts to your admonishment he probably is reacting to your body (and verbal) language and NOT the incident (with association) unless the incident and the correction is almost simultaneous.

You mentioned that the dog urinates on a rug. I assume that you do not mean a carpet. If so, I would get rid of the rug. He might have a new pattern, and although you might think that the rug is clean, a dog's sense of smell is outsanding, simply superb, and he can smell the odor from that spot long after you may have thought that the odor was long gone.

So, did you specifically ask the vet about the urination problem, after the problem started?



Sandy

[M_A_Martin]

Well...you've gotta expect setbacks.
Poor Ken...it is frustrating. I've dealt with several rescue dogs and if it's a behavior issue, the dog does get the better of you....and he knows it.


Has this been going on for two years?

I'd ask the vet if he's checked for Addison's disease recently. It can be a late onset disease and vets often think it only affects older female dogs, but it can affect male dogs as well.


Did you yell at him? That would satisfy his need for attention (negative or not)

You're moving in the right direction though.

And you've got to go through the whole house and clean everything and eradicate any scent of the previous misshaps. As long as the "other" dog can smell where he's gone before, he'll continue doing his thing.

You might consider crate training. It isn't mean. If the dog is ever unsupervised (like after he got off your chair) first place he goes, no matter what is outside to do his thing and get praised, then if he doesn't want to hang with you on the chair, it's "In the Crate" with him.


I worked with a behavoiralist who said she didn't train dogs, she trained people.

[Sandy]

I tried to crate train Kevan. It didn't work. :) :)

Freight Train Sandy

[M_A_Martin]

That's because you weren't consistant Sandy and you know it. You didn't like to hear him WHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEE !

[Sandy]

You are so right. But watching him slobber was much worse. :) :D

Slobbering Salivating Sandy

[Ken Robb]

he's going to the vet Saturday about this issue. He goes on wall-to-wall, area rugs, kitchen vinyl, dining room hardwood, etc. We use LOTS of Nature's Miracle and he doesn't go in the same spot except in the kitchen where the dogs are kept (Vinyl floors) while we are away. I use the term "other" rather than "bad" but, as Sandy wrote, I'm sure he knows.

[pale scotsman]

Hey Ken - Your dog wouldn't happen to get flea shots would it? We tried that with ours and she pee'ed all over the house, and she never goes in the house. The shot makes some dogs anxiety level go throught the roof, hence the peeing. Our vet is as good as gold and he pointed this out to shewhomustbeobeyedandwantsanewroadbike.

When we went back to the front line topo method she was cured. Just a thought. I know it can be troublesome but there are external/internal influences that can make 'em pee.

[christian]

Ken,

We had the same issues with Spooky the beagle, and thought it was behaviour related. It wasn't. It was just the first (and really only) clinical sign of Cushings disease (hyperadrenocorticism). I would recommend you talk to your vet about doing an ACTH stim to check for the possibility of Cushings.

Spooky is now undergoing treatment and is 95% better. He still leaks a little now and then, but it's manageable.

Any weight gain or thinning of hair?

- Christian

[Sandy]

I have been away for a few days because of the Jewish holiday Passover. I will be away for the remainder of the week, but I asked to use a computer at where we are staying so that I could check to see how your visit with your dog and the vet went.

Did the vet give any insight into the problem? Does he think that the problem is physical? Any blood test results ? Please let us know.

Sandy

[wooly]

My 9 year old Great Dane has been dumping in the house for the past few months. You can imagine the size of that BM! My wife and I are at a loss. I think it's just age.

The worse of it is when we put him in the car to go to the park or doctors office. He's left a couple of treats in my back seat. Imagine this - perforated leather... AARRGGG!

[Ken Robb]

vet can't find anything physical--remember that this is the dog who won't "go" on a 30 minute walk to and around the park while his brother wets every bush along the way. Then he lets it rip 2 minutes after coming back in the house so I think he's trying to make a point. Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas gang.

I have adopted 3 dogs with "problems" in the past and overcame all of their "issues" except stopping the pointer from jumping the fence and roaming when left home alone.

The one puppy I got and trained from scratch was a perfect black lab that everyone wanted for their own. She "sold" several of our friends on geting labrador puppies "just like Teal".

I've never met a dog like this little white boy though who seems determined to make me unhappy.

[M_A_Martin]

Well...you did say the pups were a package deal with your wife..

Of course he wants to make you unhappy, he's got a new dominant male and he didn't have any say in the matter.

Behavioralist...

[Sandy]

I would agree with M A at this point and contact a dog behavioralist.

My dog knowledge is certainly very limited. It is a function of having a German Shepherd dog as a youth, having a West Highland White Terrier as a young adult, and walking and playing with a zillion dogs at a local shelter. My thoughts are often from observing and interacting with dogs.

I wonder about the problem that you are having with the dog. Undoubtedly, you are extremely frustrated and discouraged with your "other" dog. I would assume that the dog has received many admonishments and/or correction and/or punishment for his actions. You and he are undobtedly far from being best friends.

You want to replace the unwanted behavior (urination in the house) by a more desirable behavior (urination outside the house). Obvious. Very often correction/punishment is both poorly timed and not very effective. I would try to replace the problem behavior by rewarding the desired behavior and replacing the unwanted behavior over time. You might want to try to pay little attention to the unwanted behavior and replace it by the behavior that you want. Have you thought real hard as to when the behavior began, and what might have triggered it?

Who walks the dog? Is it only you? Do you walk the dog always in the same route? Perhaps you, or someone else, could take the dog on walks that are much longer, which might increase the tendency and frequency in the dog urinating. I would praise the dog and perhaps give him a treat that he loves, immediately after he urinates. I would try to pay little or no attention to the unwanted behavior and try to go the praise/reward direction, rather than the correction/punishment way. Maybe you could give the dog a little treat right befor you leave for the walk. Try to be patient, although I understand why you may have no patience left. Maybe someone else could try walking the dog. Maybe you could walk the dog alone (one dog) and try bonding with him and praising him and rewarding him for the desired behavior. If you walked him for 24 hours a day, he would certainly do his thing sometime, some place outside. You can't possibly do this, but you certainly can take him on longer and "friendlier" walks.

Did your vet take blood tests?

Dog behviorialst.....

Please keep us updated.

Bow Wow Sandy