Consumer advisory: Ligero/Troy Watson

[SamIAm]

It has always irritated me when a poster who has had a bad customer experience goes out of their way to avoid naming names. It doesn't seem to serve the greater good of the forum. Frankly, I want to know who to avoid doing business with. Hence this thread.

I have been a loyal customer of Troy's for years. In fact he has told me that there is only one other customer with more Ligero wheelsets than me. And to be fair, I have been really happy with his wheels. He does really good work, but it has ALWAYS been a struggle to get delivery of his product. But in a sense, that is not uncommon in my experience with one man shops. At least he communicated, while not delivering. I am currently struggling with another vendor who does not communicate, but more on that in a different thread.

At any rate, I talked his wheels up locally and here on the forum. A local rider bought some wheels a while back that featured Troy's new hub design with a flat black finish. After the usual wrangling required to actually get the wheels, they arrived and were lovely. BUT, just a couple of weeks riding resulted in both the front and back hubs breaking. Troy was contacted and said that the flat black finish had made the hubs more brittle. He said to just send the wheels back and he would take care of it.

Months later, the wheels have still not arrived after promising they would ship out tomorrow, next week, he would drive them down etc. etc. Now Troy doesn't even attempt to communicate and it looks like my friend will be out 1K or so. Unacceptable!!!

I feel a personal responsibility when I make recommendations to other cyclists and this outcome really pains me.

I apologize if this come off as shrill, mean spirited, lacking empathy, but frankly I am getting sick and tired of the empty promises and lack of communication that seems to pervade the one man shops of cycling. I have been a huge supporter of these shops, but my patience is running out. I really don't want to hear about personal problems, the catch all, for why they aren't delivering. No one is immune to the these kind of problems, but you still have to keep your commitments or at least communicate and reset expectations accordingly.

[veloduffer]

There is a long running thread about Ligero on RBR, with Troy responding to some posts. I've skimmed the posts and it appears that Troy is leaving the "retail" business and becoming a wholesale supplier to certain shops. It would appear that something or some event (either negative or positive) is necessitating a change in his business model.

Disclaimer: I have never done business with Troy. My online wheel purchases have been with Joe Young.

[SamIAm]

There is a long running thread about Ligero on RBR, with Troy responding to some posts. I've skimmed the posts and it appears that Troy is leaving the "retail" business and becoming a wholesale supplier to certain shops. It would appear that something or some event (either negative or positive) is necessitating a change in his business model.

Disclaimer: I have never done business with Troy. My online wheel purchases have been with Joe Young.

Given how he has run his "retail business", this would make sense. It does not, however, mean that he is allowed to wind down said business leaving his customers holding the bag.

My first set of custom wheels was from Joe Young, several years ago on my Weigle. They are still going strong.

[jmeloy]

I've got a set from both and love them both but got lucky with Troy as he had built them for someone else who backed out and left him with them so delivery was easy. I'll add this, in my mind there may be no better guy in terms of integrity than SamIAm and this comes from personal experience. If he says "be careful" I listen.

[veloduffer]

Given how he has run his "retail business", this would make sense. It does not, however, mean that he is allowed to wind down said business leaving his customers holding the bag.

Agreed. The RBR thread was a complaint and Troy's lack of response. When Troy responded, it became a "he said, they said" thread but no resolution.

As someone who's business has been built or buttressed by the Internet, I find it perplexing that Troy would let his on-line reputation go to heck. I surmise that something unknown is going on behind the scenes since he had cultivated a pretty good reputation already. Not that it is an excuse or absolves him from performing his fulfillment on transactions.

[Dave B]

Yeah I have a set of his wheels, they were built incredibly well so much so that i wanted another set.

However it took me 8 weeks to get stuff he had laying around. I was pretty annoyed, but that went away once I got them. I am not sure I would want to wait that long again, however I could see myself being happy with the end product if I did.

People do odd things, right or wrong. Sorry for the issues you are having Sam! I hope it works out for sure!

[dekindy]

It is apparent that this needed to be said. Good information and good post.

[Idris Icabod]

Sorry to say that I bought from Troy a few years back and had a less than pleasurable experience, he was great to speak with on the phone to place my order. I chose hubs/spokes/rims that he had in stock to expedite the process and was told the usual 'couple of weeks' and paid up front in full. A few weeks pass and I couldn't for the life of me get in touch with him (phone and e-mail), took about 3 months to get the wheels, I had already written off the cash. Wheels were pretty good and great price. Didn't ride them much and sold them on for what I paid initially for them. Overall I liked Troy, he does a good job technically but seems to lack a bit of skill in the running of a business.

[93legendti]

Thanks for posting. I have heard good things about his wheels. I am happy with the wheels I've bought from Dave Thomas and Jeremy Maxwell.

[cody.wms]

Frankly, I wish there was more of these kinds of posts, as long as the problem is real (i.e. someones not pissed because it took an extra day, mad about real problems came up with the builder/supplier, etc.). I've heard mumblings about his wheels for a little while, and I've never seen the BikeForums thread since I don't venture over there, so this is an immense help to me. I've been looking at his wheels and hubs as a potential future purchase, but was unsure if I end up on the short end of the supply stick.

SamIAm, care to share your other problem, the one that's not responding to you?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . how applying a flat black finish to metal makes it more brittle?

BBD

[alexstar]

. . . how applying a flat black finish to metal makes it more brittle?

BBD

Anodizing?

[AndrewS]

Hard anodizing makes rims more brittle.

[Louis]

I'm not a metallurgist, but I don't think it actually makes the metal itself more brittle. However, the hard coat is brittle and can lead to cracks propagating into the parent material.

[ergott]

Troy is at Interbike so he won't have his chance to read/respond if that matters.

[stephenmarklay]

I have nothing to add about this vendor but I do say this thread is as the OP states for the the the better of the forums.

I sell real estate and in our office we maintain a list of vendors whom we have had great experiences with over an extended period of time. We can then pass this on to people that have a need for roofing or cement work or whatever the job. If the vendor fails to perform for whatever reason they are bumped from the list.

Maybe Ligero had at one time run a satisfactory business but if it is true that things have changed we need to know. I spoke with him a couple of months ago based on recommendations here but opted to go another way. Perhaps that was my luck.

I think we should maintain a list of sorts. There are plenty of threads dedicated to people asking about vendors and this would be a better way.

[SamIAm]

Troy is at Interbike so he won't have his chance to read/respond if that matters.

It doesn't matter. He has had months that he was not at interbike to respond and has not.

[ergott]

My post wasn't directed at you or a critique in any way. Just stating where he is right now and why he probably can't respond at the moment.

I hope you end up finding a satisfactory resolution to the situation.

[old_fat_and_slow]

I cannot, in good conscious, let this thread go by without posting my experience as well.

A few years back, I got sucked into the euphoria over Troy Watson's wheel builds being bantered about all over the place on Weightweenies. I emailed the guy to get an approximate quote, and checked around to see how he compared price-wise.

Troy's prices (at least then) were incredible. No one else even came close, and I checked with several on-line builders. I called the guy up, chewed the fat for a while, and then told him I wanted to place the order. He was a great guy on the phone. The one aspect about the deal I didn't like was that he wanted 100% payment up front, but the lure of a cheap price was too great, and I agreed to his terms. I followed up the phone conversation with an email summarizing the build details and price. Next I sent him a check for 100% of the transaction payment.

Then came the worst part, which seems to be a common occurrence in transactions with Troy. It takes FOREVER, to get the wheels from him. In my case, I was lucky. I was always able to reach him by phone. Troy always had a littany of excuses for why the wheels were taking so long. And in all cases, it was always SOMEBODY elses fault. Troy never accepted responsibility for the delays. I don't recall exactly how long it took, but I think it was somewhere in the 4-5 month range to take delivery, and when the wheels did arrive, the freehub body was wrong. I had ordered Campy-compatible, and he had delivered a Shimano freehub. I had to send the rear wheel back to get him to swap out the freehub. He also forgot to include the Veloplugs, which he really emphasized at the beginning of the transaction how great they were.

At several points during the wait, I started to do on-line research with the Chatanooga bar association. I was considering retaining an attorney to file suit against Troy for the price of the wheels and the attorney's fees. Luckily the wheels were delivered before I had to go that route.

I will never purchase wheels from Troy again, and I would not recommend purchasing wheels from Troy, unless he changed his requirement for 100% deposit up front.

Let me state that I have had zero problems with the wheels he built for me. However, as a business manager, I think Troy has a lot to learn. His biggest problems seem to be inventory management, accountability, vendor relations, and customer service. He's probably a great employee working for someone else, but he does not seem to have the skills to run a one man business.

Just my experience. Hopefully your's was (or will be) better.

Caveat emptor.

[1centaur]

FWIW, 3 weeks start to finish for me last year, with good communication via e-mail along the way. Could not have been better.

[Bob Loblaw]

I'm not a metallurgist, but I don't think it actually makes the metal itself more brittle. However, the hard coat is brittle and can lead to cracks propagating into the parent material.

I believe that's right. OTOH, rims bear a comparable load to the hubs, and they're often anodized without a problem. I imagine if something is to be anodized, the metal composition should just be appropriately specified at the engineering stage.

BL

[legacysti888]

Love his wheels... :beer:

They stay true and tough as nails.

Feedback and communications is fine for a small one man business. I know there are one-man frame builders who are even less communicative...

All in all, YMMV.

:cool:

[brownm68]

Thanks for the information. I hope Troy does the right thing.

[SamIAm]

.

[old_fat_and_slow]

A PSA for those that might not have seen this, (Note thread start date is Oct. 11, 2010):



http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=78046


Sad the guy doesn't seem to be able to clean up his act.


Caveat emptor !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Hard to believe he is still in business. The guy just doesn't seem to care anymore.

[RPS]

I will never purchase wheels from Troy again, and I would not recommend purchasing wheels from Troy, unless he changed his requirement for 100% deposit up front.
No comment on Troy but……

On principle I’d have a hard time paying for 100% of anything up front even if I had done business with the vendor before. A reasonable non refundable down payment to show one is serious about the purchase is one thing, but giving up all monetary leverage up front seems risky. Buying equipment or services that way at work without special approvals would have gotten anyone fired.

[SamIAm]

Still no wheels and no reply from Troy. I even offered to repay for other, more readily available hubs, if he would just build them back up again. Nothing.

For goodness sake at least send the broken wheels back. Inexcusable in my opinion.

[54ny77]

I love a good drama in the morning.... :hello:

What's so fancy about that guy's wheels that any well known builder here on the forum or elsewhere couldn't do?

(I know nothing about 'em, which is why I ask.)

http://www.ligerowheels.com/

Hah, do "big changes" mean a BK filing? :rolleyes: :D

[edit: nevermind, i clicked a few more links and learned more who he is. so he makes his own hubs and uses otherwise off the shelf stuff? umm, ok.]

[Smiley]

Good for you Rob, I too suggest that if your having any bad dealings with a bike related company POST IT HERE. Thanks Rob for doing just that.

BTW, I'll take and cash any advice SamIAm says anytime.

[Idris Icabod]

Sorry to revive this thread, I did post in it first time around. I have just heard on the local grapevine (morning ride) that Troy Watson is joining Fairwheel bikes here in Tucson as their wheel builder. Fairwheel is a really great shop so hopefully they can help Troy out in the department where he is somewhat lacking, i.e. communication and timelines. Also I was told that they will honor any warranties from Ligero Wheels (I was told this by a buddy not by Fairwheel so that needs to be checked). My Troy wheels were good when I eventually got them but I wouldn't have gone through the hassle of dealing with him again but now he is at Fairwheel I probably would.

[leooooo]

Fairwheel is def one of the best.
3 sets of wheels from them and all delivered safely and on time!