OT: Harley-Davidson's aging biker problem

[William]

Harley-Davidson's aging biker problem


http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/17/autos/harley_davidson_fall.fortune/index.htm?hpt=C2


FORTUNE -- Harley-Davidson was the feel-good turnaround story of the 1990s and then the poster-boy for brand values in the 2000s. How often did you read that Harley was the only consumer brand whose customers were so loyal they wore the company's logo tattooed on their chest?

But after expanding exuberantly in the last decade, Harley has fallen on hard times. Now it is struggling against a foe that not even cost-cutting nor brand loyalty can overcome: demographics. Its current owners are getting old, and not enough younger ones are coming up behind them.

Harley's core customer is a middle-aged white American male, a group that will contract in the coming decade. As one blogger wrote, "The 60-70-year old riders have trouble lifting a leg over the seat because of arthritis. And finger joints hurt with the cold air and engine vibration." .........

************************************************** *******

Interesting article on aging demographics. I personally thought selling/killing off of Buell was not necessarily a good move for them. With the right R&D and focus that could possibly have been a way to attract a younger demographic.

More cycling specific: Does (or will) Serotta, who in recent years appeared to mainly attract an older demographic, find itself in a similar situation? It seems that they are already coming out with a program to attract a younger less affluent demographic. Will the aging Boomers have as much of an effect on bike sales as it appears with Harley?





William (who is waiting for the caffeine to kick in on this post "Talk like a pirate day").

[avalonracing]

As a rider of a Japanese motorcycle that is superior in every way I have to say riddance. Isn't Harley just a licensing company for T-shirts, window decals and tattoos that just happens to make motorcycles that are steeped in 1930's technology? Unreliable motorcycles that are loud, slow and handle poorly.

Okay, so my comment is a bit of a troll but I do get a bit tired of the reverse discrimination by Harley riders of superior products made by other companies. Yes, I have personally ridden HDs (not fun) and sometimes go on rides with friends on their HDs (fun, as long as their open pipes aren't in front of me) I just think that the HD fan's attitude is misguided and maybe a generational die-off will cause HD to rethink their backward vision. Yeah, right.

[thwart]

Man, I've been buzzed by enough Harley riders here in WI that I have no sympathy for H-D or most of their owners. And their political pull (the company is based in Milwaukee) means there is no helmet law here... which is just plain stupid. Especially given the local tendency to drink and drive.

Unless of course you need a kidney or other organ transplant... :D

And that famous Harley bark is no fun on the ears from 10-15 feet away... :crap:

[rockdude]

Serotta might have a problem because of its price points but the issue with Harley is different.

Harley became a fad and every dentist, male interior designer and lesbian woman wanted one. It wasn't just the motorcycle enthusiast, it was the general public that drove demand. Now that the fad is over and the market is load with Harley's is uncool to have a Harley.

The South Park episode "Harley Fags" pretty much expresses the new view of Harley.

I bet some Harley owners feel different but we all wore Cosby Sweaters at one time but few of us still wear them now.

[Ray]

I bet some Harley owners feel different but we all wore Cosby Sweaters at one time but few of us still wear them now.
Uhhh, no, we didn't ALL wear Cosby sweaters at one time, not by a long shot!

We may have all ridden Schwinn Varsities at some point though, and their day is well and fully past too.

-Ray

[palincss]

More cycling specific: Does (or will) Serotta, who in recent years appeared to mainly attract an older demographic, find itself in a similar situation? It seems that they are already coming out with a program to attract a younger less affluent demographic. Will the aging Boomers have as much of an effect on bike sales as it appears with Harley?


There's plenty of us pre-Boomers out riding every weekend, indeed, every day. I think cyclists are a bit more fit than motor cycle riders.

[dancinkozmo]

...why do these harley riders insist on dressing up like pirates ? i find it baffling....

[d_douglas]

I am sure that my heavily inked, generally pretty 'authentic' brother-in-law will be being his 12 year old son a Harley to ensure that the legend lives on.

As a late 40's lifetime rider, he would confidently say that he will be riding his own HOG into his 70's. Good for him.


I don't drive motorcycles and could never understand why he wanted to ride a bike that broke down every fifth time he rode it. That would drive me nuts. He finally coughed up for a modern Harley that is apparently 'reliable'.

[csm]

...why do these harley riders insist on dressing up like pirates ? i find it baffling....

I've always wondered this as well.

[Steve in SLO]

Harley vs Serotta may be a bit like comparing apples to oranges.
While both have been recently attracting older, more affluent riders, Serotta is pushing technology forward, while H-D is somewhat arrested in its retro allure/rut. Their Evo engine designed by Porsche is nice, but their pushrod engines are dinosaurs. Add to that a 700# curbweight, boneshaking idle and yikes! Harley's other problem is the large secondary market of well-customized, low mileage, well-maintained m'cycles. Why buy new when you can have the same bike with a few K miles on it for potentially tens of thousands less?
I had to ride one for a friend last year and I couldn't believe how much of a pig it was. I could see riding it in a straight line, but to turn the thing was torture. Give me my BMW and R1 any day.

[gone]

During the years of Harley's decline, there were lots of independent shops that kept Harley alive. The execs at Harley bought it back from AMF and brought it back from the dead. When it started booming, one of the first things they did was cut off all the small independents or any dealers who wouldn't remodel/expand to sell more "Motor Clothes". They also trademarked practically everything ("Hog") including "the unique sound of a Harley" and sued a lot of the small independents that kept them going during the lean years (e.g., The Hog Farm) for trademark infringement.

There's that old saying "Be nice to people on your way up and they'll be nice to you on your way down"

[sg8357]

...why do these harley riders insist on dressing up like pirates ? i find it baffling....

HDs are the Civil War re-enactors of motorcycles. :)

They all want to be rebels, with a strict dress code.

[malcolm]

As a rider of a Japanese motorcycle that is superior in every way I have to say riddance. Isn't Harley just a licensing company for T-shirts, window decals and tattoos that just happens to make motorcycles that are steeped in 1930's technology? Unreliable motorcycles that are loud, slow and handle poorly.

Okay, so my comment is a bit of a troll but I do get a bit tired of the reverse discrimination by Harley riders of superior products made by other companies. Yes, I have personally ridden HDs (not fun) and sometimes go on rides with friends on their HDs (fun, as long as their open pipes aren't in front of me) I just think that the HD fan's attitude is misguided and maybe a generational die-off will cause HD to rethink their backward vision. Yeah, right.

First off superior in every way, no, technology I'll give you. No one has created a V-twin that rivals harley among V-twin fans. Part of the problem with the company is the custom industry, most of the folks with the FRNs go the custom route with and S&S engine which is essentially a reworked, hot rodded and better harley twin.

I've ridden and raced a bunch of different bikes Japanese and HDs street, motocross and flat track. JRA town I'll take a stroked HD any day. Racing I'll go Japanese, long distance prob BMW possibly Japanese.

Harley Davidson created a culture not all of it necessarily admirable but the motorcycles are iconic and the Japanese V-twins are mostly sad replicas.

Just as a trip down memory lane I can remember taking more than a few dollars from young guys on their ninja's back in the day on a 101 in super glide with a turbo. It would hole shot a ninja and never look back. Engine didn't last very long though. Also had a first year kawasaki Z1-900, the second japanese bike I ever owned, the first being a 750 two stroke triple. The Z1 was the fastest bike I had ever ridden and would pretty much destroy anything avail at the time.

Don't ride em anymore too many long shifts in the ER

Oh yeah, I have no tats, numerous harleys and 4 years in the marine corps and no ink

[bobswire]

"More cycling specific: Does (or will) Serotta, who in recent years appeared to mainly attract an older demographic, find itself in a similar situation? It seems that they are already coming out with a program to attract a younger less affluent demographic. Will the aging Boomers have as much of an effect on bike sales as it appears with Harley?"

I don't think so William (at least into the near future). Men entering their "mid life crisis" who would have purchased that Harley in 2000 are now turning to other pursuits like high end bicycles.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1301626/Mid-life-crisis-Middle-aged-men-buying-BIKES-sportscars.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7935114/Mid-life-crisis-Get-on-your-bike.html

This story was also in the Wall Street Journal.

[malcolm]

More on topic. I came to serotta because I had lusted for them at a period in my life that I couldn't afford them. Once older and more gainfully employed and not spending money on motorcycles I got a serotta. I think that is true for lots of folks and is part of the reason why serotta owners seem a bit older.

I think not having a racing presence also hurts a little, the younger folks are not familiar with them and think of them as the bicycle version of the orthopedic shoe, for old guys with back problems and too much money.

[wasfast]

...why do these harley riders insist on dressing up like pirates ? i find it baffling....

The same could be said of 50 yo men in lycra and such....

Regarding the aging demographic in general, I'm AMAZED at how many of us "old guys" show up to race in OBRA land but also note that the under 40 demographic is nowhere as populated. Perhaps we need another bike boom?:-)

[avalonracing]

First off superior in every way, no, technology I'll give you. No one has created a V-twin that rivals harley among V-twin fans.

Oh yeah, I have no tats, numerous harleys and 4 years in the marine corps and no ink

For a V-Twin that is superior in every way see: Honda RC51 ;)

I don't fit the Japanese sportbike stereotype either. I don't have any tattoos (of an Asian character that means something other than what I think it means or a "tribal" band) and none of my cars have been lowered, have neon below or faux carbon hoods.

As for your second post about Serotta I would absolutely support racing if I were running company. NASCAR sells cars (why else would anyone buy a Monte Carlo? NFL sells jerseys (would people be walking around wearing an oversize purple shirt with a big number and someone else's name otherwise?) Racing sells bicycles. Trek used to make mainstream and touring bikes (now they dominate the market).

[bobswire]

More on topic. I came to serotta because I had lusted for them at a period in my life that I couldn't afford them. Once older and more gainfully employed and not spending money on motorcycles I got a serotta. I think that is true for lots of folks and is part of the reason why serotta owners seem a bit older.

I think not having a racing presence also hurts a little, the younger folks are not familiar with them and think of them as the bicycle version of the orthopedic shoe, for old guys with back problems and too much money.


Too true. I hang out at the VeloNews forum and get kidded a lot about my Serotta being for "old folks" and I'll kid them back that if they're lucky enough to last this long then maybe they'll get to experience what a great ride Serotta puts out. Better late than never, until then keep riding your teeth jarring Caad 9.

[malcolm]

For a V-Twin that is superior in every way see: Honda RC51 ;)

I don't fit the Japanese sportbike stereotype either. I don't have any tattoos (of an Asian character that means something other than what I think it means or a "tribal" band) and none of my cars have been lowered, have neon below or faux carbon hoods.

As for your second post about Serotta I would absolutely support racing if I were running company. NASCAR sells cars (why else would anyone buy a Monte Carlo? NFL sells jerseys (would people be walking around wearing an oversize purple shirt with a big number and someone else's name otherwise?) Racing sells bicycles. Trek used to make mainstream and touring bikes (now they dominate the market).


I agree. I think you miss my point with the V-twin thing. It is the harley image and sound that has not be recreated and the feel. That big V-twin just has a certain feel to it, although now days the engines are all rubber mounted so that might not be the case.

I saw a immaculately restored Z-1 900 a few weeks ago in dark green exactly like my old one it really gave me the wannas.

I assume you still ride? I just look these days. We have the AMA superbike race coming up at barber motorsports it always stirs my interest.
Have you seen the new bmw, I think rr1000, if so what do you think. I would love to give it a little buzz around town, fairly certain I would kill myself on the track, too much hp and not enough supple wrist or skill.

[endosch2]

I live in NH which I think is the highest in the country in motorcycles per capita, and a lot of them are Harleys. I have a pretty strong dislike for them as I think they are the only example I can think of where someone could use a product that is so disruptive from a noise stand point to so many other people. We live close enough to a major road that all summer you have someone on a loud bike wake you up from a hard sleep. Can anyone else name a product of any kind that is sold that is legal to intrude on others to that extent? I cannot think of any.

Harley likes to perpetuate the myth that the people on the bikes are all doctors, lawyers, ceos, etc, but for most of the people in my area there are a lot of guys who make 20K per year riding a 25K Harley.... All the more to Harleys brand that they can sucker people like that.

[malcolm]

I live in NH which I think is the highest in the country in motorcycles per capita, and a lot of them are Harleys. I have a pretty strong dislike for them as I think they are the only example I can think of where someone could use a product that is so disruptive from a noise stand point to so many other people. We live close enough to a major road that all summer you have someone on a loud bike wake you up from a hard sleep. Can anyone else name a product of any kind that is sold that is legal to intrude on others to that extent? I cannot think of any.

Harley likes to perpetuate the myth that the people on the bikes are all doctors, lawyers, ceos, etc, but for most of the people in my area there are a lot of guys who make 20K per year riding a 25K Harley.... All the more to Harleys brand that they can sucker people like that.



I agree with the noise, but that is a user phenomenon not the product. I've owned many and never had open drag pipes on any of mine. The are unnecessary and obnoxious.
I don't know if you have numbers to back up your findings or if they are anecdotal, but I'll add my own. I spent many years as a full time er physician in a very active trauma center, I had already stopped riding for the most part. Over the decade or so I noticed a distinct change in motorcycle crash victims. Now remember the nature of the activity provides for triage at the scene, meaning many are dead when the paramedics get there and thus don't come to the er, but of the ones that made it there were two distinct groups: 1) young black males- usually on japanese bikes 2) over 40, many times over 50 gainfully employed white guys- usually on harleys or versions of harleys. Many years ago when I first started they were all young white guys or older white guy hard core biker types.

In the above by gainfully employed I mean typical family type guys with jobs or professions not the hard core bike type.

[dancinkozmo]

I live in NH which I think is the highest in the country in motorcycles per capita, and a lot of them are Harleys. I have a pretty strong dislike for them as I think they are the only example I can think of where someone could use a product that is so disruptive from a noise stand point to so many other people. We live close enough to a major road that all summer you have someone on a loud bike wake you up from a hard sleep. Can anyone else name a product of any kind that is sold that is legal to intrude on others to that extent? I cannot think of any.

Harley likes to perpetuate the myth that the people on the bikes are all doctors, lawyers, ceos, etc, but for most of the people in my area there are a lot of guys who make 20K per year riding a 25K Harley.... All the more to Harleys brand that they can sucker people like that.

apparently legislation has just passed in california banning these loud pipes on street bikes (starting in the next year or two i believe)...hopefully the rest of the country will follow suit.

[dancinkozmo]

a fellow i knew from new zealand used to call harleys "Farting Armchairs" :)

[endosch2]

I agree with the noise, but that is a user phenomenon not the product. I've owned many and never had open drag pipes on any of mine. The are unnecessary and obnoxious.
I don't know if you have numbers to back up your findings or if they are anecdotal, but I'll add my own. I spent many years as a full time er physician in a very active trauma center, I had already stopped riding for the most part. Over the decade or so I noticed a distinct change in motorcycle crash victims. Now remember the nature of the activity provides for triage at the scene, meaning many are dead when the paramedics get there and thus don't come to the er, but of the ones that made it there were two distinct groups: 1) young black males- usually on japanese bikes 2) over 40, many times over 50 gainfully employed white guys- usually on harleys or versions of harleys. Many years ago when I first started they were all young white guys or older white guy hard core biker types.

In the above by gainfully employed I mean typical family type guys with jobs or professions not the hard core bike type.


Mine are definately anecdotal observations. I know not everyone has a loud Harley, but if I were to guess 30-40% of the bikes that I see are fairly loud. I also know you can make them "really loud", which some people do. They are talking about noise ordinances but in my town all of the police ride harleys off duty so we will see if they are ever enforced. My observation about their typical rider comes from knowing a lot of people who own them and you would have a much higher probability meeting a Dr, Lawyer, or CEO in a sample group of cyclists than you ever would same random sample of Harley riders. I just really dont believe the myth that the try to perpetuate about their customer being so high end.

[William]

They put a noise ordinance in place in our town in an attempt to cut down on the noise from the Harley riders who like to cruise main street at night. Articles in the local paper indicate that it helped.



William

[BengeBoy]

I grew up riding (Japanese motorcycles) and I find lots of the Harley phenomenon amusing, and some annoying.

The worst of the worst is the "loud pipes save lives" nonsense.

When I'm cycling through a National Park and I can hear the "loud pipes" crowd coming through on one of their Sunday morning cruises it always seems to me as rude as letting skunk loose in a church or art museum.

[johnnymossville]

As long as people are slinging **** I'll put in my two cents. Most of the idiots I see on bikes aren't on Harleys, they're the guys doing 90mph wheelies on 695 while weaving through traffic, which is VERY frequent where I live.

I'd say the ratio of idiots per brand is pretty much equal across the motorcycling spectrum. Harley Riders included. People mostly see idiocy through ignorance or in things they don't personally identify with. Hating on Harley riders in a general sense is just another form of bigotry. Have at it if you want.

When I graduated College and got my first job I went out and bought a Harley Sportster and started riding weekends with my local HOG chapter. They were mostly middle aged, middle class people out to make friends with like-minded people, enjoy the beautiful PA countryside, talk bikes, family, jobs, whatever. A bunch of great people in general. Salt of the earth. I racked up 30,000+ miles a year on that bike for years. Enjoyed every minute of it.

Funny how with bicycles we see much of the same bigotry. Just get out there and enjoy the ride. Surely you can deal with the .000001% of the time one of those dirtbag bikers rolls by on the way to the bar, or when some Mamil on a *Gasp* Trek passes you out there on the road.

[buck-50]

Back on topic, I'd say the comparison is apt.

Serotta sells bikes that are pretty much beyond the means of any young rider, save for those who really really really want one.

But, young riders for the most part don't really really really want them because who they see riding serottas are not young riders like themselves but the old guys who can afford them.

Serotta is too small to be able to hop on the latest design trends (tapered steerer! BB30!) that attract riders looking for cutting edge stuff, too big to have the cache of a one man custom shop, and too generic to have the edge of an Independent Fabrication.

I love my NHX with it's skinny tubes, beautifully thinned lugs and gorgeous yellow to red fade. But honestly, there's nothing in the current lineup that I'd buy even if I could afford it. I can get full custom steel cheaper. I can get a Waterford cheaper.

Serotta is in a weird place- it's essentially a cult product, but the cult isn't doing a whole lot to attract new members.

[AndrewS]

Harley has made their fortune selling a vary narrow aesthetic to those who could afford them. It shouldn't be a surprise when a niche company, no matter how large, goes out of fashion.

In a larger sense, the producers of all luxury goods - and let's not kid ourselves, Serottas are a luxury these days - are always in a spot as demographics and money shifts from generation to generation. All you can do is keep researching your market and adjust your product line and marketing to fit with whoever has the money. Serotta's new off the shelf line is probably an indicator of a general downward trend in incomes amongst potential Serotta clientelle.

One thing a company can do to remain vital is reduce its total size and output - go from production to boutique. But that's a hard transition that most people distinctly bristle at the thought of, because it means firing people and selling off assets - which we take as a sign of impending failure and poor form.

The ideal business situation for longevity is to NEVER produce enough to keep up with demand. Even in the worst economy, you'll never run out of customers and have a steady income. The other way is to have such a diverse line that you can drop whole sections of your line without fanfare - like Trek, Specialized or Honda. Serotta is probably too big and too niche for either of these to apply, so they will have to move forward with great care.

[spacemen3]

a fellow i knew from new zealand used to call harleys "Farting Armchairs" :)

Classic. :D

[rugbysecondrow]

Harley sells image and cool. All you have to do is buy a motorcycle and you are able to purchase leather, hats, shirts etc. Not other single purchase gives you access to so many other purchases. No other single purchases liscenses you to an image like a Harley.

So what you want about the quality of the bikes, they have been extremely successful at what they do.

[rugbysecondrow]

They put a noise ordinance in place in our town in an attempt to cut down on the noise from the Harley riders who like to cruise main street at night. Articles in the local paper indicate that it helped.



William

Harley riders love this ****, it helps the Bad Boy image.

[Ken Robb]

, Salt of the earth. I racked up 30,000+ miles a year on that bike for years. Enjoyed every minute of it.
.

Wow, that's a lot of miles! Assuming that you kept it at least 3 years what kind of maintenance did you do to keep it on the road?

[bobswire]

Me in the 70's and me in the 2009's, always was a Honda guy. I've always preferred efficient over image though some of the newer Harley's are well made.

[Ken Robb]

Harley sells image and cool. All you have to do is buy a motorcycle and you are able to purchase leather, hats, shirts etc. Not other single purchase gives you access to so many other purchases. No other single purchases liscenses you to an image like a Harley.

So what you want about the quality of the bikes, they have been extremely successful at what they do.

I used to joke that the rise of jogging killed half the tennis racket sales in the USA. Non-athletic people who wanted to go around in cool-looking comfy warm-ups could pretend to be joggers rather than pretending to be tennis players so they didn't have to waste money on rackets they never used. :)

[alancw3]

i am not a motorcylcist but i do have friends that are and they tell me that once you have ridden a bmw you will not go back to any other bike. oh, this is from a pure riding standpoint and has nothing to do with image and noise/sound!

[William]

Harley riders love this ****, it helps the Bad Boy image.

Hundred bucks a pop! It's cheaper to just hang out in front of the local Starbucks and cat call Soccer moms to get the rep. ;)

When I would visit at my parents Brownstone on Benefit Street near Brown University, bikes with open pipes would go by at all hours of the day or night. They would rattle the windows five floors up from the street. :crap: Don't get me wrong, I love riding motorcycles, but there comes a point where it just becomes down right obnoxious.




William

[whforrest]

apparently legislation has just passed in california banning these loud pipes on street bikes (starting in the next year or two i believe)...hopefully the rest of the country will follow suit.

My Dad used to tell me that the sound of a Harley is "the second best sound in life."

[avalonracing]

The Harley open pipes sound is both pathetic and illegal. It will not pass any place that has a sound ordinance yet no police officer hassles with it.

As for the pathetic part I believe people who need to run open pipes are crying out for attention. They obviously feel impotent or unnoticed enough because of their childhood or current roll in life that they need to make that noise in public.

If groups of cars did that there would be a public outcry.

Don't even say it is for increased performance because if you were worried about HP or speed you wouldn't be on a 700lb Barcalounger. I lived in the historic district of a old mill town where groups of guys would ride though town blipping the throttle ending all conversation and setting off car alarms. Is that a revving Harley engine I hear? No it's just a distorted cry of "Daddy, Mommy pay attention to me!"

[Joellogicman]

...why do these harley riders insist on dressing up like pirates ? i find it baffling....

Probably much the same reason so many cyclists dress to look like insects.

[Joellogicman]

The Harley open pipes sound is both pathetic and illegal. It will not pass any place that has a sound ordinance yet no police officer hassles with it.

As for the pathetic part I believe people who need to run open pipes are crying out for attention. They obviously feel impotent or unnoticed enough because of their childhood or current roll in life that they need to make that noise in public.

If groups of cars did that there would be a public outcry.

Don't even say it is for increased performance because if you were worried about HP or speed you wouldn't be on a 700lb Barcalounger. I lived in the historic district of a old mill town where groups of guys would ride though town blipping the throttle ending all conversation and setting off car alarms. Is that a revving Harley engine I hear? No it's just a distorted cry of "Daddy, Mommy pay attention to me!"

But HD noise annoys me no less than wound up rice rockets.

[malcolm]

Interesting the unreliable aspect as well. I don't think harleys ever were or ever will be as reliable as say a honda, but I personally put 30k plus on an '81 wide glide and that was if memory serves the last year of amf and probably bottom of the barrel quality wise with no issues, granted it leaked oil like a fiend but never broke. I never had a harley that was a reliability problem, most of em did leak oil however.

I also raced motocross on maicos, german bikes that had a reputation for failure again myth. They were prone to things coming loose, but if you knew them over the first few rides you lock tited everything and they were bullet proof. Peg the throttle and bang the gears up or down and you couldn't break em if you wanted to. quality issues were never as bad as rumored. I think some of it is because biker types often had cobbled together POCs to begin with.

[rwsaunders]

They put a noise ordinance in place in our town in an attempt to cut down on the noise from the Harley riders who like to cruise main street at night. Articles in the local paper indicate that it helped. William

Loud pipes save lives....that's what my Harley-riding brother-in-law claimed when I questioned the lack of a muffler on his Fat Boy.

[shorelocal]

Lots of interesting viewpoints in this thread.

I used to ride/race Japanese streetbikes and I also worked for H-D/Buell for a summer, so I have seen both sides.

The annoyingly loud pipes are equal for both types of bikes ... open pipes on cruiser v-twins (H-D and Japanese) and aftermarket race pipes on street bikes (which don't even need them these days the OEM pipes are that good and light). Having live in an urban condo, I do agree that bikes screaming down the street late at night is annoying, but when I was younger, I probably annoyed people with my race pipe.

I think H-D is just a luxury brand that is really suffering with the times (ie. economy). I don't think they're any less desirable with the younger generations ... some ppl just like cruiser bikes and think plastic-faired street bikes are garbage. Also, buying H-D also feeds the "buy American" sentiment ... something Serotta may benefit from.

As for Serotta specifically, I can say I know of one retailer in my city that sells Serotta and I don't think I've ever seen one on the road (or at least I haven't noticed one). I live in a large Canadian city, so this observation is not due to population size. I agree with a previous poster that racing sells bikes for companies equal to or larger than Serotta ... maybe not so for small, boutique builders.

And for everyone touting Japanese bikes' better performance, reliablity, etc ... I don't think many ppl buy Harley for those reasons. Just like a Rolls Royce or Bentley ... you don't buy it for its 0-60 time ... it's bought for luxury and image (not saying H-D is luxury).

[tch]

Loud pipes save lives....that's what my Harley-riding brother-in-law claimed when I questioned the lack of a muffler on his Fat Boy.
Loud pipes make me want to torture, mutilate, and kill the person who's riding 'em.
If motorcyclists want to save lives, maybe they could try riding carefully, responsibly, and safely. I will admit my bias: I HATE loud, obnoxious motorcyles. But I will say, that my lived experience is that HD riders don't always do their part to stay safe, loud pipes or no.

[JD Smith]

My Dad used to tell me that the sound of a Harley is "the second best sound in life."

Second only to the sound of a Harley being shut off.

[bluesea]

I also raced motocross on maicos, german bikes that had a reputation for failure again myth.


There was also the chain drive, as opposed to a trouble free gear drive. Basically your average rider/racer couldn't be bothered with maintaining their euro bike correctly. But if IIRC most of your Maico myth derived from and carried over from the Ake Jonsson era, as they had greatly improved with their next generations.

Walking into the sizable local Harley dealer a couple of months ago, I found the whole boutique/lifestyle environment to be bordering on ludicrous and quite uninviting. I have friends who ride Harleys, and yes they slap on the doo-rags when they get off the bike. I try to ignore the fact they ride.

[rugbysecondrow]

This thread reads the same as the threads that talk about how douchy cyclists are...pretty funny actually.

[Squint]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-ytACeVM0

[William]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBW0GVtqwqM&feature=related

Setting off an alarm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leOm0yFxZTY&feature=related


Just having fun. :D




William

[malcolm]

There was also the chain drive, as opposed to a trouble free gear drive. Basically your average rider/racer couldn't be bothered with maintaining their euro bike correctly. But if IIRC most of your Maico myth derived from and carried over from the Ake Jonsson era, as they had greatly improved with their next generations.

Walking into the sizable local Harley dealer a couple of months ago, I found the whole boutique/lifestyle environment to be bordering on ludicrous and quite uninviting. I have friends who ride Harleys, and yes they slap on the doo-rags when they get off the bike. I try to ignore the fact they ride.

My maico years were mid '70s like '75-'78 rode and race 250s and 450s these were the AW series, for Adolph Weil, they were the best box stock mx'ers I ever swung a leg over. In stock configuration with equal riders the japanese bikes couldn't touch them and if you got rid of the crappy bing carb even better things would happen. I rode both the 250 and 450 with an after market carb and wheelsmith high pipe all else stock.
I've not been on a harley or in a shop in over 10 years, if I got a street bike now I think it would be a bmw r1200 gs.

[bluesea]

My maico years were mid '70s like '75-'78 rode and race 250s and 450s these were the AW series, for Adolph Weil, they were the best box stock mx'ers I ever swung a leg over. In stock configuration with equal riders the japanese bikes couldn't touch them and if you got rid of the crappy bing carb even better things would happen. I rode both the 250 and 450 with an after market carb and wheelsmith high pipe all else stock.
I've not been on a harley or in a shop in over 10 years, if I got a street bike now I think it would be a bmw r1200 gs.


The AWs were the next generation I had mentioned. I had a 1978 250 (trails, play etc) and raced a 390 Husqvarna. They came reed valved, and I can't remember if it came stock with, or I had switched to Mikunis. I'd tend to guess the former. The Japanese bikes were just becoming close to competitive, but they had innovated the stainless steel reed petals and basically higher quality all around especially brakes. Mine were ported by Up-Tite which supposedly had connections with the factory, and did the engines for U.S. sponsored riders. My partner raced an AW, but funny I never gave it a try.

Right now I'm looking for a fun city bike in a Husqvarna SM450 R, or maybe a Monster 696.



playtime--17.5" dual chamber Fox Air Shox
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4134/dsc00122m.jpg

[bicyclego]

Being that I derive my income by designing and supplying components to the Motor Company, I'm not one to bag on them too much. In addition to me, our supply role keeps a couple hundred good people in jobs.

This isn't to say that I always agree with their styling or marketing approach. I don't find their products all that appealing, frankly. I prefer BMW or some of the Japanese bikes coming out of Europe.

H-D is undergoing some serious transitional pains. I fully anticipate that H-D five years from now will not look much like H-D today.

As for Serotta. I now own one. Sure, it always seems that the older guys rode them, but I took that to be that only older, more established folks could afford them. Seeing as I'm now older and more established, maybe my thought is panning out. Let's chalk it up to the Serotta appealing to the mature, discriminating rider.

[michael white]

Harleys are trying pretty hard to update the ride; they have a whole "youth" line including the "dark" customs, as well as the new Superlow which is getting great reviews for being an actually good motorcycle. I would be surprised if they succeed at changing the image they've worked so hard to achieve, though. I mean, a Prius is a status symbol now, not a hog. A Harley just signals midlife crisis, overcompensation for something, etc.

Image aside, I used to love riding motorcycles, and am still very interested in them, but for about 20 years, whenever one goes by me on the road, I have never once envied the motorcyclist. I'm always glad I'm the one on a bike, trying to get fit.

[SPOKE]

Well, I'm an equal opportunity rider of bicycles and motorcycles. Best thing I can say is I ride many different bicycles and find them all refreshing in their character.
As for the motorcycles I really like the "V" twins ("L" twin if you speak Ducati). Just like the torque the engines deliver. Many of you thathave commented in this thread will just have to hate me. The two harley's, ducati and Kawasaki all have the loud pipes and related performance fuel injection computers. If you really can't stand the noise when I ride by try ear plugs. They work for me.......even when I ride my bicycle sometimes.

[Onno]

Well, I'm an equal opportunity rider of bicycles and motorcycles. Best thing I can say is I ride many different bicycles and find them all refreshing in their character.
As for the motorcycles I really like the "V" twins ("L" twin if you speak Ducati). Just like the torque the engines deliver. Many of you thathave commented in this thread will just have to hate me. The two harley's, ducati and Kawasaki all have the loud pipes and related performance fuel injection computers. If you really can't stand the noise when I ride by try ear plugs. They work for me.......even when I ride my bicycle sometimes.

You may be joking (I hope so), but this really does seem like the attitude of HD riders. The noise is worst for those just behind them (so much for safety, which loud pipes might help if they were aimed forward). The noise of these bikes is sheer idiocy, like little boys setting of firecrackers, giving raspberries to the world. Grow up.

It ought to be illegal to wear earplugs on those bikes. Go deaf yourself.

[rice rocket]

Once you're at speed, wind noise will outdo any other noise by a pretty large margin. Loud bike or not, ear plugs are a must unless you got a fancy schmancy helmet that's sealed. But what you lose in noise is usually lost in cooling too.

[rugbysecondrow]

You may be joking (I hope so), but this really does seem like the attitude of HD riders. The noise is worst for those just behind them (so much for safety, which loud pipes might help if they were aimed forward). The noise of these bikes is sheer idiocy, like little boys setting of firecrackers, giving raspberries to the world. Grow up.

It ought to be illegal to wear earplugs on those bikes. Go deaf yourself.

Just a poor statement, the whole thing. Maybe it is just me, but I have never felt accosted in any way by any motorcyclist. Maybe this is one of those things, like shaved legs, that I just do not understand. Frankly I like motorcyclists, they always offer a wide berth when they pass.

Seems like folks take this a little too seriously lighten up and stop being a bunch of pansy Nancys.

[tch]

...you might plop yourself down in a chair and let me yell in your ear as loudly as possible for 20 minutes....
I might acknowledge that loud -- REALLY LOUD -- noise doesn't bother everyone. But for those of us with sensitive ears, it's like shining a blinding spotlight into your eyes, or farting directly into your nose, or perhaps even grinding glass into your fingertips. It's actually that physically painful for me. And it sparks all kinds of uncontrollable physiological reactions -- accelerated heartrate, adrenaline, etc. And... for those not yet convinced, repeated exposure to loud noises degrades one's hearing (ask Pete Townsend about that).
How about a little consideration for other people? That's what's missing from motorcycles with loud pipes.

[SPOKE]

You may be joking (I hope so), but this really does seem like the attitude of HD riders. The noise is worst for those just behind them (so much for safety, which loud pipes might help if they were aimed forward). The noise of these bikes is sheer idiocy, like little boys setting of firecrackers, giving raspberries to the world. Grow up.

It ought to be illegal to wear earplugs on those bikes. Go deaf yourself.

I'm not joking.....but I do give my fellow cyclists plenty of room when I pass by and do not needlessly rev the engine as I pass by.
I do think several of you that have posted in this thread have made some
tremendous generalizations regarding those of us that ride motorcycles, particularily Harley's, that are just uncalled for.

[Dekonick]

Serotta, Seven, and the other high end non mass produced bikes are EXPENSIVE - who can afford expensive bikes? MAMILS - thats right... older folks like us.

When was the last time you saw a Ferrari driven by a 20 year old? (who isn't a sports star or actor... or using a trust fund...) Serotta is similar... young kids just can't afford them. When they age a bit, they will want one much more than a Trek, Specialized, whatever.

It is all about what you can afford. Lets face it - those of us who ride are lucky... those who ride on custom bikes that fit are even more blessed.

I can't afford (or won't pay) a Serotta carbon frame, but I will pay for a custom tig'd steel frame... Serotta or otherwise.

I really need to go to bed - good night folks. :beer:

[don compton]

Man, I've been buzzed by enough Harley riders here in WI that I have no sympathy for H-D or most of their owners. And their political pull (the company is based in Milwaukee) means there is no helmet law here... which is just plain stupid. Especially given the local tendency to drink and drive.

Unless of course you need a kidney or other organ transplant... :D

And that famous Harley bark is no fun on the ears from 10-15 feet away... :crap:
in california, the harley riders are the respectful motorcyclists. the ( ducati, rice rocket) crowd scare the sh$!^t out of me. maybe it is different east of california, but i have seen a lot of respect from the harley guys in central cal.
the other group have some serious issues. like small guy on high h.p. bike buzzing cyclists. maybe manhood issues.

[rice rocket]

Serotta, Seven, and the other high end non mass produced bikes are EXPENSIVE - who can afford expensive bikes? MAMILS - thats right... older folks like us.

When was the last time you saw a Ferrari driven by a 20 year old? (who isn't a sports star or actor... or using a trust fund...) Serotta is similar... young kids just can't afford them. When they age a bit, they will want one much more than a Trek, Specialized, whatever.

It is all about what you can afford. Lets face it - those of us who ride are lucky... those who ride on custom bikes that fit are even more blessed.

I can't afford (or won't pay) a Serotta carbon frame, but I will pay for a custom tig'd steel frame... Serotta or otherwise.

I really need to go to bed - good night folks. :beer:

I disagree. Trust fund students or not, $4-9k is a far cry from a $200k Ferrari. You're stretching for analogies here. Custom is not always more expensive. In collegiate cycling, there are plenty $4-9k bikes floating around, almost all of them carbon.

It's marketing. Carbon markets well to the younger generation. It's new (ish). It's high tech. It lighter in most cases. When you ask a 18-25 year cyclist what they want to buy given their budget, they'll go with what they think gives them the edge, and carbon bikes have all the marketing to back it up. Cost is about the same as some entry to mid-level Serottas, but it has the bells and whistles to make it seem like not-your-average commuter bike. And most younguns are flexible enough to ride aggressive race geometry daily, so why not let them?

[bironi]

All I will add to the conversation is that I am not a fan of loud exhaust pipes, especially when riding on quiet back roads. I was quite amazed to see the wide variety of motorcycle styles parked at a popular lunch spot on Skyline in the Santa Cruz mountains. Seems like there are choices for every style of riding on either motored or non-motored bikes. I do wish more motored riders respected the shared history of both cycles. :beer:

[rice rocket]

in california, the harley riders are the respectful motorcyclists. the ( ducati, rice rocket) crowd scare the sh$!^t out of me. maybe it is different east of california, but i have seen a lot of respect from the harley guys in central cal.
the other group have some serious issues. like small guy on high h.p. bike buzzing cyclists. maybe manhood issues.

I'll be honest, I'm not on a crotch rocket (yet), but when I do get on one, I plan to ride how it's safest for ME. That means riding faster than the flow of traffic so I rarely will be caught me off guard. Yeah, a few speeding tickets will fall in my lap, but I have zero accidents on my record and plan to keep it that way. It's how I drive in a car now, it's survival. Putting around on a Harley in the flow of traffic is suicide.

[don compton]

I'll be honest, I'm not on a crotch rocket (yet), but when I do get on one, I plan to ride how it's safest for ME. That means riding faster than the flow of traffic so I rarely will be caught me off guard. Yeah, a few speeding tickets will fall in my lap, but I have zero accidents on my record and plan to keep it that way. It's how I drive in a car now, it's survival. Putting around on a Harley in the flow of traffic is suicide.
why is general travel survival?

[dd74]

I live near the 101 Freeway and whatever those guys are doing up there on their superbikes, occurs at least at 10,000 RPMs, and by passing sound, well over 100 mph. And this is in large groups, no less.

Once, I saw a rice rocket group literally block the freeway of all traffic so their buddies could have free space to perform all sorts of circus tricks on their bikes. Sometimes the riders even film this as it's happening. And it happens sometimes during rush hour traffic.

I've never seen a Harley go much over 60 or 70 mph. Sure, they're loud, but they're not screaming down the freeway, waking the neighborhood, or blocking traffic to do wheelies or front tire stands; not that they could physically do this in the first place...I guess.

But this is all academic compared to a RZ-350. Between the chainsaw sound of a two-stroke and the gas-oil smoke, those bikes are obnoxious. To worsen matters, I really like them. :beer:

Now, about the Serotta, I don't see where it compares to the Harley in any manner. Lotus would be a good comparison in cars, Ducati in motorcycles.

Trek is more on par with Harley. Look at all the swag they have to go along with their bikes. :rolleyes:

[rice rocket]

why is general travel survival?

Because it's like any urban area? Distracted drivers or just overall poor drivers. I've driven on the I-5 in California; the word CHAOS comes to mind... Being able to see the world unfold in front and being able to take avoidance steps is much preferred over things manifesting behind you and taking you from behind (quite literally).

[rugbysecondrow]

...you might plop yourself down in a chair and let me yell in your ear as loudly as possible for 20 minutes....
I might acknowledge that loud -- REALLY LOUD -- noise doesn't bother everyone. But for those of us with sensitive ears, it's like shining a blinding spotlight into your eyes, or farting directly into your nose, or perhaps even grinding glass into your fingertips. It's actually that physically painful for me. And it sparks all kinds of uncontrollable physiological reactions -- accelerated heartrate, adrenaline, etc. And... for those not yet convinced, repeated exposure to loud noises degrades one's hearing (ask Pete Townsend about that).
How about a little consideration for other people? That's what's missing from motorcycles with loud pipes.
20 minutes huh, is that how long it takes for a Harley to pass you? I think not.

What you say is that it is an inconvenience, but think about how unreasonable your words sound. I will again say that this thread is the equivalent of the comments section of a newspaper article amount cyclists. Nuisance, block traffic, litter, run red lights, disregard other cars, all their shwag and queer spandex, disregard for traffic. This is just to funny. Next time a motorist complains about a cyclist slowing down traffic, remember how much you complained about some loud pipes.

By the way, Harley riders are typically the most respectful riders I come in contact with on the road. In fact I was thinking about this thread while Dekonick and I were riding yesterday. A loud Harley passed us, gave wide berth and scooted on by. No bother at all, wide berth, load pipes that I could easily hear coming...sounds great to me.

Pete Townsand, really? Are we comparing riding a bike to somebody who made a living on a rock stage?

Sorry if I am insensitive to your sensitive ears, but that is your issue and not societies to deal with.

[BillG]

I just always assumed that Harleys were popular because due to the association with the Hell's Angels it was one of the few products you could buy to make you seem cool and bad if you were notably overweight. If Harley is doing worse maybe its a sign that fitness is on the up.

[R2D2]

Everyone seesm to think HD is stuck in the past. Well what about the V-rod?
They have tried to innovate.

[dancinkozmo]

Everyone seesm to think HD is stuck in the past. Well what about the V-rod?
They have tried to innovate.

"tried" is the key word here ...ever seen a v-rod in the metal ? its a complete peice of junk....they also tried to race AMA superbikes a few years back (im thinking to get a foot in the door on the sportbike scene) after millions of dollars and many years without any success whatsoever they quit.

[christian]

I will again say that this thread is the equivalent of the comments section of a newspaper article amount cyclists. Nuisance, block traffic, litter, run red lights, disregard other cars, all their shwag and queer spandex, disregard for traffic.

This. As an active cyclist and motorcyclist, I think it behooves non-car users of roads to promote mutual respect and cooperation. I am disappointed by the narrowmindedness and silliness in this thread.

Two wheels good, four wheels bad. Three wheels ok, but liable to kill you in fast right hand turns.

And FWIW, while I am not enthralled with all the management decisions of he MoCo in recent history - the MV purchase was insensible from the start, the Buell shut down was a bit of a disaster, and they still are in tough straits with regard to their production logistics complexity.

But I think they're making sensible moves in attracting younger riders - dark customs, superlow, street bobber. The Sportster is a great low-maintenance commuter. And the 2009+ touring bikes are incredibly competent machines. And I know a lot of guys younger than me who are very excited by pan and shovel bobbers and old FLHs.

Heck, I am a 34-year old Honda/BMW/KTM/Pegoretti/Merckx rider, but if I could find a nice 92 FXRS-SP for $6000, I'd buy it tomorrow. The MoCo makes some cool bikes.

I don't see any meaningful analogies to Serotta.

[dimsy]

...why do these harley riders insist on dressing up like pirates ? i find it baffling....

it's kinda hard not to raise an eyebrow at this comment. considering we all troop out in lycra all the time, we must look just as strange in our get up.

[/devils advocate]

[avalonracing]

it's kinda hard not to raise an eyebrow at this comment. considering we all troop out in lycra all the time, we must look just as strange in our get up.

[/devils advocate]

Lyrca=Functional for bicycling

Sleeveless vest, soup bowl (brain bucket) helmet, bluejeans= Opposite of functional for motorcycling.

[dimsy]

Lyrca=Functional for bicycling

Sleeveless vest, soup bowl (brain bucket) helmet, bluejeans= Opposite of functional for motorcycling.

and i completely agree, but if we're going by how funny it looks, they're on par in this case.

[Lifelover]

Lyrca=Functional for bicycling

Sleeveless vest, soup bowl (brain bucket) helmet, bluejeans= Opposite of functional for motorcycling.



and i completely agree, but if we're going by how funny it looks, they're on par in this case.

And I almost completely disagree. In my experience the functional benefits of our lyrca clown suits are almost meaningless on rides under 40-50 miles and/or 20+ miles an hour.

While the average for forum members maybe higher, the average riding distance for most road cyclist is not really that far or long.

[flickwet]

Really did nail it, if ya wanna get a chuckle check it out. Why the strong opinions? Hey we ride in the Cuyahoga Valley, on any pristine day around here (rare as it is) every Harley Fag from miles around shows up to ride the park then hit the "lizard" for beer and wings to fatten up for another 50 mile round trip of noise. We actually get hundreds of them on some weekends and they do really get obnoxious, good for the businesses though. whereas me on my ol'colorady hardly makes a sound, just chillin on an idyllic day...POTATOPOTATOPOTATO damn so much for the revery. Brooks Brothers not cheap-never goin out of style, just like Serotta, Harleys? rideable liesure suits... bye bye.

[avalonracing]

And I almost completely disagree. In my experience the functional benefits of our lyrca clown suits are almost meaningless on rides under 40-50 miles and/or 20+ miles an hour.

While the average for forum members maybe higher, the average riding distance for most road cyclist is not really that far or long.

Well enjoy your 90ºF day, 38 mile rides at 18mph in your cut off shorts and T-shirts. :banana:

[benb]

I had a real annoying H-D incident over the weekend.

One bike is not that bad, and IMO no bike is louder then a really loud HD. They will not even pass the racetrack noise limits at most tracks.

But anyway, we had 100+ of them go by our house Sunday morning.. it really ticked me off. Inside, with all the windows shut it was deafening. It was incredibly loud as our house is very well insulated for sound, as we are on the flight path for an air force base. We can barely hear the planes if the windows are shut. This incident went on for at least 10 minutes. A few minutes later someone on a stock H-D pulled in across the street and I could barely hear it, so it's not the H-D's fault, it's the stupid culture of the riders.

I ride a Honda (not a cruiser) and I've rode quite a few Harleys, but I really hate the culture and the noise.

The big defining thing that drives me nuts with harleys is they are often very loud, and very slow, like a kid in an economy car who has put a loud muffler on his car. Most motorcycles just can't go to wide open throttle for very long in a residential area. They pick up too much speed too quickly, the rider has either left the area very quickly, or they're going to crash into something. But like a Civic with a loud muffler, the guy on the harley can putt around the neighborhood making a lot of noise without picking up much speed.

I personally think H-D is doing everything wrong at attracting a new generation.. they will definitely still get some people, but they killed Buell in about the most spiteful way possible, Buell was where pretty much the only innovation at H-D was taking place, and Harley not only closed Buell, they made sure Erik Buell couldn't go independent very easily. Not exactly a good way to win fans of the younger generation.

Painting the bikes black is not good enough to appeal to a new group of riders.. they always made blacked out bikes available periodically. They need to get with the program and actually make some "new" bikes so people don't feel like they can buy one and have their own style without just aping the 60s.

I don't think POTATO-POTATO-POTATO when I hear an idling H-D. To me it sounds like "LOOK-AT-ME, LOOK-AT-ME, LOOK-AT-ME".

[rugbysecondrow]

Really did nail it, if ya wanna get a chuckle check it out. Why the strong opinions? Hey we ride in the Cuyahoga Valley, on any pristine day around here (rare as it is) every Harley Fag from miles around shows up to ride the park then hit the "lizard" for beer and wings to fatten up for another 50 mile round trip of noise. We actually get hundreds of them on some weekends and they do really get obnoxious, good for the businesses though. whereas me on my ol'colorady hardly makes a sound, just chillin on an idyllic day...POTATOPOTATOPOTATO damn so much for the revery. Brooks Brothers not cheap-never goin out of style, just like Serotta, Harleys? rideable liesure suits... bye bye.

Don't you just hate that? What I hate is when I am driving along, enjoying a beautiful coountry drive and I come up on some faggy dressed cyclists, blocking the road, chatting about the next latte stand they are going to hit up and what razor best suits their "Manly" legs. The guys have no consideration for traffic, won't move out of the way and even have to nerve to yell at me as I speed by, like I am the one doing something wrong. Sure, they spend money locally and we have beautiful roads that are great for riding but is it worth it, these guys are disrespectful douchebags who don't even bother stopping at stop signs. I almost hit one the other day when he decided the Red Octigon only applied to me and not him. He then flipped me off as he weaved through traffic. If they get hit and killed, it is their own fault for riding the way they do and acting the way they do...like assholes.


Sound pretty ridiculous huh? Funny how much people feel entitled to do what THEY want to do, but completely disgregard others. Motorist put down Cyclists, Cyclists rag on Motorcyclists...few have an accurate reflection of how they fit into the system.

[malcolm]

Really did nail it, if ya wanna get a chuckle check it out. Why the strong opinions? Hey we ride in the Cuyahoga Valley, on any pristine day around here (rare as it is) every Harley Fag from miles around shows up to ride the park then hit the "lizard" for beer and wings to fatten up for another 50 mile round trip of noise. We actually get hundreds of them on some weekends and they do really get obnoxious, good for the businesses though. whereas me on my ol'colorady hardly makes a sound, just chillin on an idyllic day...POTATOPOTATOPOTATO damn so much for the revery. Brooks Brothers not cheap-never goin out of style, just like Serotta, Harleys? rideable liesure suits... bye bye.


You may be right but harley has been around alot longer than serotta.

[avalonracing]

As a car driver, motorcyclist and bicyclist I can speak definitively on this:

Loud Harley: crappy, obnoxious, inconsiderate... all show- no go

Sportbike: fine, because as it was mentioned they can't make a lot of noise at slow speed. On a sportbike (unlike a Harley) noise accompanies acceleration

Cyclists: fine, unless they are on a fixie (which they have not mastered) on a group ride

[malcolm]

As a car driver, motorcyclist and bicyclist I can speak definitively on this:

Loud Harley: crappy, obnoxious, inconsiderate... all show- no go

Sportbike: fine, because as it was mentioned they can't make a lot of noise at slow speed. On a sportbike (unlike a Harley) noise accompanies acceleration

Cyclists: fine, unless they are on a fixie (which they have not mastered) on a group ride


I won't argue with you because I don't completely disagree but don't assume all harleys are slow especially in a straight line.

[rice rocket]

and i completely agree, but if we're going by how funny it looks, they're on par in this case.

Power Ranger suit is far superior. ;)

Although no one rides in full leathers anymore, it's far too uncool.

[avalonracing]

I won't argue with you because I don't completely disagree but don't assume all harleys are slow especially in a straight line.

Yes, there are some Harleys which can move quickly in a straight line but it generally results in earth shattering noise (and $10K+ of mods on a $15K+ motorbike).

Of course I have generalized on much of what I have written in this thread but I'm mostly serious.

Okay, it's 71ºF on a low humidity, cloudless day... I'm going to grab my full face Arai helmet, my think leather Vanson jacket and Sidi boots and hop on my very fast and reasonably quiet Honda VFR800 and run to a few appointments. Then I'm going to come home and pull on some silly lyrca over my shaved legs and go for a bicycle ride on which I will obey most of the motor vehicle laws.

[gemship]

has anybody mentioned that Harley sales suck because they are a luxury item and we're in a recession?

[tch]

a poop-throwing contest here, but I think you've overstated my position, Rugby.
I admit I have sensitive ears, and maybe it's up to me to (mostly) deal with this. But the point is not that it takes 20 minutes for a HD to pass or that I compare myself to Pete Townsend... the point is consideration for others at the expense of "this is what I wanna do".
I'm not defending rude, irresponsible bike riders either. Rude is rude, no matter what people are riding. What I'm looking for in this world is some more consideration of other people: their feelings and their pleasure. I feel like America has become far too focused on individual "rights" at the expense of the group's welfare. So the guy who blows loud pipes down the road because he "likes it" is in the same camp as the person who talks on his/her cellphone in the car because it's convenient for him/her. Legally, I'm within my rights to illuminate my house with klieg lights at night in my community -- but I choose not to do it b/c it would offend, bother, upset my neighbors.
That kind of consideration is what I want from motorcycle riders and what I don't tend to get.


20 minutes huh, is that how long it takes for a Harley to pass you? I think not.

What you say is that it is an inconvenience, but think about how unreasonable your words sound. I will again say that this thread is the equivalent of the comments section of a newspaper article amount cyclists. Nuisance, block traffic, litter, run red lights, disregard other cars, all their shwag and queer spandex, disregard for traffic. This is just to funny. Next time a motorist complains about a cyclist slowing down traffic, remember how much you complained about some loud pipes.

By the way, Harley riders are typically the most respectful riders I come in contact with on the road. In fact I was thinking about this thread while Dekonick and I were riding yesterday. A loud Harley passed us, gave wide berth and scooted on by. No bother at all, wide berth, load pipes that I could easily hear coming...sounds great to me.

Pete Townsand, really? Are we comparing riding a bike to somebody who made a living on a rock stage?

Sorry if I am insensitive to your sensitive ears, but that is your issue and not societies to deal with.

[gemship]

in light of the recession all bike sales are hurting,who the fu#$ analyses and comes up with all these reasons for why a useless impractical machine isn't moving fast enough on a show room floor? I guess writers who need jobs

[gemship]

oh yeah and harley dudes dressing like pirates is retarded but to say it's the same as a cyclist with pro kit/lycra is B.S. because there is actually a benefit to the cycling out fit in regards to fit and performance. Although I can justify leather in the unfortunate understandable case of going down but leathers actually riding a motorcycle in general kind a sucks if you have to wear leathers in hot weather, can't see the enjoyment there

[rice rocket]

has anybody mentioned that Harley sales suck because they are a luxury item and we're in a recession?

Are they?

Boats, yeah, no one is getting anywhere proper on a boat. But many use motorcycles as transportation. Maybe Harleys are hit harder since they're not reliable enough as transportation? :p

[gemship]

Are they?

Boats, yeah, no one is getting anywhere proper on a boat. But many use motorcycles as transportation. Maybe Harleys are hit harder since they're not reliable enough as transportation? :p


Yes they are. they suck when it's cold, or in the rain, all bikes do and for the kind of money they sell for they don't haul nothing, useless. Some chicks like riding bitch but most don't and I'm single, know this thru experience. Boats are useless too for the most part but you can fish with them

[rugbysecondrow]

So the guy who blows loud pipes down the road because he "likes it" is in the same camp as the person who talks on his/her cellphone in the car because it's convenient for him/her. Legally, I'm within my rights to illuminate my house with klieg lights at night in my community -- but I choose not to do it b/c it would offend, bother, upset my neighbors.
That kind of consideration is what I want from motorcycle riders and what I don't tend to get.

I agree with your sentiment, I just don't see public roads as being a place where this is an issue. In most neighborhoods etc, sure, but not on most roads. People should be more considerate, I agree.

[christian]

Honda VFR800God damn cam gear noise. I hate that pesky cam gear noise.

[dancinkozmo]

Really did nail it, if ya wanna get a chuckle check it out. Why the strong opinions? Hey we ride in the Cuyahoga Valley, on any pristine day around here (rare as it is) every Harley Fag from miles around shows up to ride the park then hit the "lizard" for beer and wings to fatten up for another 50 mile round trip of noise. We actually get hundreds of them on some weekends and they do really get obnoxious, good for the businesses though. whereas me on my ol'colorady hardly makes a sound, just chillin on an idyllic day...POTATOPOTATOPOTATO damn so much for the revery. Brooks Brothers not cheap-never goin out of style, just like Serotta, Harleys? rideable liesure suits... bye bye.
same thing around here (rural michigan) every weekend...riding around from pub to pub fattening up...we call them TT riders (Tavern-to-Tavern)

[dancinkozmo]

it's kinda hard not to raise an eyebrow at this comment. considering we all troop out in lycra all the time, we must look just as strange in our get up.

[/devils advocate]

AARRGH..shiver me timbers if this doesnt look like a harley rider !!

[William]

Dicks come in all shapes and sizes. They ride bikes, motorcycles and drive cars. I've seen Harley riders weaving and blasting through traffic, and sport riders pulling wheelies at 75+ mph on the Hi-way with lots of traffic around. What about the cyclists we complain about who blow stops, go the wrong way down one way streets, and race down side walks. A Dick is a Dick.

As far as open pipes, I referring mainly to populated areas....though it does suck to be camping out in the woods and constantly hearing that rumble echoing in the distance.

I can't say that a cyclist has ever woken me up in the middle of the night going by my house, open pipes have.

Don't get me wrong, I like the rumble of horsepower be it from a bike or car. But there is a reason that Cherry Bombs, Glass Packs, and open headers are illegal in most places.

As far as dress...I don't care. But before you take people to task for commenting, how many times has someone been called a "poser" for dressing in a certain kit, or from the "hipster fixie crowd" which is derogatory on some level. The irony is amusing to some. Harley guys (Weekend warrior types) dressing like 1%'ers, and rec riders wearing the polka dot jersey. It's all relative.....and many times amusing as well.


Ride what you ride. But don't be an idiot.




William

[avalonracing]

God damn cam gear noise. I hate that pesky cam gear noise.

Ah, someone knows their VFRs I see. Yes, my gear driven cams have been known to make children cry and send livestock running.

[bluesea]

in california, the harley riders are the respectful motorcyclists. the ( ducati, rice rocket) crowd scare the sh$!^t out of me. maybe it is different east of california, but i have seen a lot of respect from the harley guys in central cal.
the other group have some serious issues. like small guy on high h.p. bike buzzing cyclists. maybe manhood issues.


It goes both ways. My impression is there seems to be a good percentage of responsible sport bike riders, who do not take part in these outlaw xtreme activities. There is good and bad on both sides, and I suspect that most of us lack enough of a gods-eye view to take sides without some predjudice.

[rugbysecondrow]

It goes both ways. My impression is there seems to be a good percentage of responsible sport bike riders, who do not take part in these outlaw xtreme activities. There is good and bad on both sides, and I suspect that most of us lack enough of a gods-eye view to take sides without some predjudice.

You make good sense. :beer:

[buck-50]

Are they?

Boats, yeah, no one is getting anywhere proper on a boat. But many use motorcycles as transportation. Maybe Harleys are hit harder since they're not reliable enough as transportation? :p
You can get a lot of car for the price of a Harley. And when it rains, you can drive the car without getting wet. You can pick up the kids from school in the car. You can buy a weeks worth of groceries and take them home in the car. When it snows, you can still drive your car.

If you live anywhere where the weather isn't perfect 90% of the time, motorcycles aren't all that practical. In the midwest, they are very much like owning a boat. Says me, a guy with a motorcycle in his garage that he hasn't ridden since he started having to take his daughter to day care...

[dancinkozmo]

Ah, someone knows their VFRs I see. Yes, my gear driven cams have been known to make children cry and send livestock running.

gear driven cams are a beautiful thing...its a shame honda went to cam chains for the newer gen vfr's :0(
im looking for a nice used rc51 myself...if any of youze guys know of one.... !!

[rice rocket]

Ah, someone knows their VFRs I see. Yes, my gear driven cams have been known to make children cry and send livestock running.
More than Ducati clutches?

[Ken Robb]

More than Ducati clutches?
My Ducati has a quiet wet clutch. The Termi pipes aren't TOO loud either. :) :beer:

[benb]

AARRGH..shiver me timbers if this doesnt look like a harley rider !!

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=74343&stc=1

He won the 1998 Tour right?

[Vancouverdave]

What I find interesting about local Harley riders is that they won't wear the same helmets as riders on Ducatis and Japanese bikes--they wear these little black things that look like old-time motor pacer helmets. Is this an aesthetic thing, sort of like not wearing baggy tan shorts if you ride a Cervelo? Disclaimer--not a motorcycle rider!

[benb]

Most of the "brain buckets" are not actually legal as a motorcycle helmet. There is a big business selling illegal unsafe helmets to the H-D crowd and then they stick fake DOT stickers on them so it's hard for the police to give them a ticket.

That's all it is.. they are too tough for helmets, when the law tells them they have to wear them, they protest by wearing helmets that don't work. The rest of the motorcycling world can tell the difference and figure out who is who by the helmet worn.

Note not ALL H-D guys wear those helmets. But the vast percentage of people wearing non-functional motorcycle clothes are in that crowd. Same thing with sleeveless vests and assless leather chaps. That's non-functional motorcycle clothes, because they don't protect the areas you're most likely to get road rash on.

Another amusing thing to look for if you travel back and forth between states that do and do not have helmet laws is guys on these bikes pulling over at the border to put their helmets on. Or when they get to a "Free State" pulling over at the border to take the helmets off.

Yet another great idea from this crowd is when a car pulls in front of you, you have to "lay her down", cause it's better to hit the ground instead of using your front brake to stop in time. Everyone knows the front brake will cause you to flip end over end and get hurt worse.

And finally you want to avoid taking any motorcycle training.. that's for wimps.

[malcolm]

Most of the "brain buckets" are not actually legal as a motorcycle helmet. There is a big business selling illegal unsafe helmets to the H-D crowd and then they stick fake DOT stickers on them so it's hard for the police to give them a ticket.

That's all it is.. they are too tough for helmets, when the law tells them they have to wear them, they protest by wearing helmets that don't work. The rest of the motorcycling world can tell the difference and figure out who is who by the helmet worn.

Note not ALL H-D guys wear those helmets. But the vast percentage of people wearing non-functional motorcycle clothes are in that crowd. Same thing with sleeveless vests and assless leather chaps. That's non-functional motorcycle clothes, because they don't protect the areas you're most likely to get road rash on.

Another amusing thing to look for if you travel back and forth between states that do and do not have helmet laws is guys on these bikes pulling over at the border to put their helmets on. Or when they get to a "Free State" pulling over at the border to take the helmets off.

Yet another great idea from this crowd is when a car pulls in front of you, you have to "lay her down", cause it's better to hit the ground instead of using your front brake to stop in time. Everyone knows the front brake will cause you to flip end over end and get hurt worse.

And finally you want to avoid taking any motorcycle training.. that's for wimps.

talk about a generalization. some of the most skilled riders I've seen especially defensive have been harley guys. I know some cops that spent a life time on harleys that are pretty good and some rice rocket guys that loose the line in a curve and high side.

[gemship]

talk about a generalization. some of the most skilled riders I've seen especially defensive have been harley guys. I know some cops that spent a life time on harleys that are pretty good and some rice rocket guys that loose the line in a curve and high side.


a darn good generalization at that but it's okay that you are into Milwaukee Iron. Defense, get heavy on the D :bike:

[malcolm]

a darn good generalization at that but it's okay that you are into Milwaukee Iron. Defense, get heavy on the D :bike:


I'm not into any of them, haven't ridden in years, but owned and rode all kinds. To make skill judgements based on the type or country of origin is ridiculous. I suspect there is an overwhelming lack of true riding skills among the majority of folks out there that haven't raced or been trained. JRA does not develop real skills.

[dancinkozmo]

Most of the "brain buckets" are not actually legal as a motorcycle helmet. There is a big business selling illegal unsafe helmets to the H-D crowd and then they stick fake DOT stickers on them so it's hard for the police to give them a ticket.

That's all it is.. they are too tough for helmets, when the law tells them they have to wear them, they protest by wearing helmets that don't work. The rest of the motorcycling world can tell the difference and figure out who is who by the helmet worn.

Note not ALL H-D guys wear those helmets. But the vast percentage of people wearing non-functional motorcycle clothes are in that crowd. Same thing with sleeveless vests and assless leather chaps. That's non-functional motorcycle clothes, because they don't protect the areas you're most likely to get road rash on.

Another amusing thing to look for if you travel back and forth between states that do and do not have helmet laws is guys on these bikes pulling over at the border to put their helmets on. Or when they get to a "Free State" pulling over at the border to take the helmets off.

Yet another great idea from this crowd is when a car pulls in front of you, you have to "lay her down", cause it's better to hit the ground instead of using your front brake to stop in time. Everyone knows the front brake will cause you to flip end over end and get hurt worse.

And finally you want to avoid taking any motorcycle training.. that's for wimps.


..its funny because its true !

[avalonracing]

More than Ducati clutches?

I had a 2001 Monster 900s. It was so cool looking but that damn clutch sounded like hell to me. Yes, I know, music to some but I was always looking down at stoplights expecting to see parts flying off my bike.

[Ken Robb]

When a guy tells me "he had to lay her down" I just assume he didn't have any skill at braking (or riding in general) and didn't want to admit that he just lost control. :)

[rugbysecondrow]

talk about a generalization. some of the most skilled riders I've seen especially defensive have been harley guys. I know some cops that spent a life time on harleys that are pretty good and some rice rocket guys that loose the line in a curve and high side.
Of course it is a generalization. Where better place than an echo chamber to spout off about that which you would never say to their face. Sure, many might be dentists, some aren't though...roll the dice and let them know what you think.

Yes, I have many friends and relatives who ride bikes, some are Harley riders. Funny how ignorance via bias is welcome for some topics but unacceptable for others. Say what you want about the bikes, but it seems convenient to knock the riders in your echo chamber, quite another to say something on the road.

[William]

Of course it is a generalization. Where better place than an echo chamber to spout off about that which you would never say to their face. Sure, many might be dentists, some aren't though...roll the dice and let them know what you think.

Yes, I have many friends and relatives who ride bikes, some are Harley riders. Funny how ignorance via bias is welcome for some topics but unacceptable for others. Say what you want about the bikes, but it seems convenient to knock the riders in your echo chamber, quite another to say something on the road.


Well, I don't know who specifically you are directing this at but since I participated in this thread I'll just state that if I have something to say, it will be no different on-line then it would be to your face (anyone). I'm a firm believer in...."If you're going to talk the talk, you better be able to walk the walk". But then again, I also tend to adhere to the "Walk softly and carry a big stick" line of action.

That being said, you don't shave your legs so what do you know. :p ;)




William

[rugbysecondrow]

No, not you. Folks can disagree, but when people decide they want to call others Harley fags and insult them in others ways, that seems unreasonable and inappropriate and I don't think I am wrong in pointing this out. Am I being unreasonable?

Thanks,
The non-shaved-legged-one

[William]

No, not you. Folks can disagree, but when people decide they want to call others Harley fags and insult them in others ways, that seems unreasonable and inappropriate and I don't think I am wrong in pointing this out. Am I being unreasonable?

Thanks,
The non-shaved-legged-one


I don't think you are being unreasonable. Everyone has their view and they should be ready and willing to state it....which you did.

Btw, PM your address and I'll send you a bottle of Neet. It will leave those legs hairless and baby smooth. ;)




William

[Joellogicman]

Yes they are. they suck when it's cold, or in the rain, all bikes do and for the kind of money they sell for they don't haul nothing, useless. Some chicks like riding bitch but most don't and I'm single, know this thru experience. Boats are useless too for the most part but you can fish with them

But here in Chicago at least if I see a bike on the street between November and April it is almost always a Harley or BMW.

The Japanese and European club racers seem to only come out when the weather is nice.

[malcolm]

Of course it is a generalization. Where better place than an echo chamber to spout off about that which you would never say to their face. Sure, many might be dentists, some aren't though...roll the dice and let them know what you think.

Yes, I have many friends and relatives who ride bikes, some are Harley riders. Funny how ignorance via bias is welcome for some topics but unacceptable for others. Say what you want about the bikes, but it seems convenient to knock the riders in your echo chamber, quite another to say something on the road.


I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe I'm ignorant but I don't follow this at all. If I offended I didn't mean to, my main point was most people on bikes really don't have much skill irrespective of brand.

bikes= motorcycles

[avalonracing]

But here in Chicago at least if I see a bike on the street between November and April it is almost always a Harley or BMW.

The Japanese and European club racers seem to only come out when the weather is nice.

That's because the BMW crowd are hard men and the Harley rider's '72 Chevy Nova is on blocks in front of the double-wide ;)

[bluesea]

That's because the BMW crowd are hard men and the Harley rider's '72 Chevy Nova is on blocks in front of the double-wide ;)

LOL!

[flickwet]

Dicks are dicks everywhere you go, its just that the percentage of dicks to non-dicks increases with the addition of new dicks to any dick-like activity. Vis a vis: many inconsiderate people who ride loud Harleys are dicks, other dicks want to be with these dicks, the percentage of dicks increases till most inconsiderate loud Harley riders are dicks. Few cyclists are dicks (my observation) few dicks want to hang out with few dicks, they are not attracted to non dick associations. Thus few dicks in cycling, there are some remember, just not many as a percentage of participation. My only problem now is that some dicks could say that cycling is a dickless activity, but only a dick would say that.

[malcolm]

That's because the BMW crowd are hard men and the Harley rider's '72 Chevy Nova is on blocks in front of the double-wide ;)


Now that is funny. Is there one of those gigantic calling in air strikes satellite dishes behind the nova with weeds growing up around it.

[Joellogicman]

That's because the BMW crowd are hard men and the Harley rider's '72 Chevy Nova is on blocks in front of the double-wide ;)

:D

[malcolm]

Dicks are dicks everywhere you go, its just that the percentage of dicks to non-dicks increases with the addition of new dicks to any dick-like activity. Vis a vis: many inconsiderate people who ride loud Harleys are dicks, other dicks want to be with these dicks, the percentage of dicks increases till most inconsiderate loud Harley riders are dicks. Few cyclists are dicks (my observation) few dicks want to hang out with few dicks, they are not attracted to non dick associations. Thus few dicks in cycling, there are some remember, just not many as a percentage of participation. My only problem now is that some dicks could say that cycling is a dickless activity, but only a dick would say that.


I would argue the opposite. I'm sure this will open a can o worms but cyclist are some of the most arrogant pricks I've been around in various sports. I also think there are some great folks involved in cycling, look around here. I've participated in many sports and cycling tends to be overall the most unaccepting and elitist, when it comes to novices of any sport of which I've been involved. Most sports I've participated in welcome newcomers, I've not seen this in cycling and I've been doing it awhile since the early '80s.

[rugbysecondrow]

I would argue the opposite. I'm sure this will open a can o worms but cyclist are some of the most arrogant pricks I've been around in various sports. I also think there are some great folks involved in cycling, look around here. I've participated in many sports and cycling tends to be overall the most unaccepting and elitist, when it comes to novices of any sport of which I've been involved. Most sports I've participated in welcome newcomers, I've not seen this in cycling and I've been doing it awhile since the early '80s.
100% agree. Well said.

[gdw]

"I would argue the opposite. I'm sure this will open a can o worms but cyclist are some of the most arrogant pricks I've been around in various sports. I also think there are some great folks involved in cycling, look around here. I've participated in many sports and cycling tends to be overall the most unaccepting and elitist, when it comes to novices of any sport of which I've been involved. Most sports I've participated in welcome newcomers, I've not seen this in cycling and I've been doing it awhile since the early '80s."

All too true.

[michael white]

I would have to agree. Lots of ego and scorn in this sport.

[bluesea]

Back to the OP--in last months Cycle World they did a short article on the XR1200X. Its press intro took place at a road race track, and there's a pic of the bike leaned over in a turn with the sidestand running pretty close to the hardtop. The rider was garbed appropriately in road race gear. Not that I'm really interested in the bike, but it got my attention.

[SPOKE]

to celebrate this thread I rolled my ducati out of the garage and went for a brief blast today on some of my usual cycling roads. really love the sounds this bike makes. booming exhaust note that at times sounds like a bad a$$ V-8 hotrod. at full song you think the world is comming to an end. the rattle of the dry clutch makes me smile because most don't have a clue what's going on when they here it making this terrible noise sitting at a stoplight.
every time i take this bike for a ride i just have to smile.....it really is a special piece of wicked Italian soul.... :beer:

[dd74]

I just can't understand the Harley riders and the loud pipes, even when they wear helmets. How do they put up with that sound?

Back in my car days, I bolted a lot of different exhausts to my 911. One set was a pair of megaphones. Two laps around Willow Springs Raceway with that exhaust, and I was done. The headache was excruciating. The ears ringing and eyes squinting was just as bad.

I can't imagine what those Harley guys go through during long rides.

[avalonracing]

I just can't understand the Harley riders and the loud pipes, even when they wear helmets. How do they put up with that sound?

I can't imagine what those Harley guys go through during long rides.

On a motorcycle after 50mph most of the noise the rider hears is wind noise. So after 60-90 seconds at full throttle the Harley riders are mostly hearing wind ;)

[Lifelover]

I would argue the opposite. I'm sure this will open a can o worms but cyclist are some of the most arrogant pricks I've been around in various sports. I also think there are some great folks involved in cycling, look around here. I've participated in many sports and cycling tends to be overall the most unaccepting and elitist, when it comes to novices of any sport of which I've been involved. Most sports I've participated in welcome newcomers, I've not seen this in cycling and I've been doing it awhile since the early '80s.


True Dat!

Once upon a time they was even a group of them that started their own forum.

[William]

Dicks are dicks everywhere you go, its just that the percentage of dicks to non-dicks increases with the addition of new dicks to any dick-like activity. Vis a vis: many inconsiderate people who ride loud Harleys are dicks, other dicks want to be with these dicks, the percentage of dicks increases till most inconsiderate loud Harley riders are dicks. Few cyclists are dicks (my observation) few dicks want to hang out with few dicks, they are not attracted to non dick associations. Thus few dicks in cycling, there are some remember, just not many as a percentage of participation. My only problem now is that some dicks could say that cycling is a dickless activity, but only a dick would say that.


Don't even get into the politics of it. Some dicks lean to the left, while others lean to the right. Next thing you know every one is going off and the forum just turns into a big mess.




William <ewww>

[dancinkozmo]

to celebrate this thread I rolled my ducati out of the garage and went for a brief blast today on some of my usual cycling roads. really love the sounds this bike makes. booming exhaust note that at times sounds like a bad a$$ V-8 hotrod. at full song you think the world is comming to an end. the rattle of the dry clutch makes me smile because most don't have a clue what's going on when they here it making this terrible noise sitting at a stoplight.
every time i take this bike for a ride i just have to smile.....it really is a special piece of wicked Italian soul.... :beer:

ever try to adjust the valves on a Duc ?
Mama mia ! what a pain in the ass !!!

[SPOKE]

ever try to adjust the valves on a Duc ?
Mama mia ! what a pain in the ass !!!

No I haven't. But have observed the procedure a couple times. I'll make an attempt in the near future though.

[flickwet]

Don't even get into the politics of it. Some dicks lean to the left, while others lean to the right. Next thing you know every one is going off and the forum just turns into a big mess.




William <ewww>

whattaya know, a sense of humour...well written