To stop or not to stop, that is the question.

[bobswire]

25 cyclists get ticketed for running a stop sign in Woodside Ca. on Aug.28th of this year.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/bicycle/index

Cyclist in and around the San Francisco/San Jose area are very familiar with
Woodside being one of the most popular road destinations in Northern Ca.with some wonderful climbs.
The Amgen Tour of California makes sure to include the area in at least one of their stages such as Old La Honda/Tunitas Creek Rd, Kings Mountain Rd, Alpine Road loop, etc.

I imagine the Police could fill the counties tills writing tickets there for cyclists not making a complete stop. Most of those roads are scenic and many have switchback with very little traffic beyond rush hours.

Anyway I digress, do you stop at every stop sign or do the semi stop roll through when clear?
I'm of the latter, here in San Francisco if I did a complete stop at every sign it would take me forever to make any head way but I don't fly through and do yield to right of way.
Red lights are another story , busy intersections i wait for the lights.
Side streets with lights and no traffic I use my discretion whether to break the law or not.

[Blue Jays]

My approach to traffic navigation is very similar to yours.
Unclipping can increase danger to a cyclist + cause frustrating delays for motorists.
My goal is to be predictable and safe.

[rugbysecondrow]

Anyway I digress, do you stop at every stop sign or do the semi stop roll through when clear? I either stop or come to a near stop. I think I need to pay more attention than cars so that often means me slowing to a near stop to look around a corner, look up the road etc.

Red lights are another story , busy intersections i wait for the lights. I always wait.

Side streets with lights and no traffic I use my discretion whether to break the law or not. I always wait.

[fieldrecordings]

I tend to slow/coast through stop signs & red lights whenever possible, except at busier intersections. Always being mindful of peds & other cyclists who have the right of way.

[Ralph]

I pretend I'm a car. Obey the rules the same.

[AndrewS]

I'm not a car. Cars are those fast moving boxes that are trying to kill me. I use my discretion and do whatever is safest, regardless of traffic laws.

[tch]

My goal is to be predictable and safe.
I agree and follow this principle 100%. In a situation where anyone should stop, I do. In a situation where it is safe, non-public, and expected that I or anyone else would proceed, albeit carefully (stop sign on a wide-open country intersection), I proceed.
Err on the side of law and safety, but don't get so caught up in puntilious adherence to the letter of the law that you cause another problem (a pile-up of a paceline behind you because no one expects you to actually stop and unclip at this deserted intersection).

[phcollard]

I am in Montreal and police has started the ticket giveaway here as well: if you burn a stop or a traffic light but also if they catch you riding with earphones.

I am for my own security and as I am the weakest in the food chain that means I slow down at stops but almost never to a complete stop. I would have to unclip then, and compete with 1+ ton vehicules behind me try to pass that damn cyclist because they'll be one minute late at the office if they don't do so.

[Pete Serotta]

I am in Montreal and police has started the ticket giveaway here as well: if you burn a stop or a traffic light but also if they catch you riding with earphones.

I am for my own security and as I am the weakest in the food chain that means I slow down at stops but almost never to a complete stop. I would have to unclip then, and compete with 1+ ton vehicules behind me try to pass that damn cyclist because they'll be one minute late at the office if they don't do so.

and a good way to do things...


And Montreal is one of my favorites, except JAN - MAR :) :)


Thanks PETE

[martinrjensen]

I obey the law maybe 80% of the time. One thing I try to keep in mind is not to do something that will blatantly piss off drivers also, but no I don't always stop. Now that I think about it, the percentage may be even lower because on side streets I would almost never stop at a stop sign unless warranted by traffic. I try to ride on city streets all the time as opposed to MUPS, I typically stay off them (MUPs) as you have to go too slow to be safe on them here in Seattle.

[tuxbailey]

My goal is to learn how to track stand.

[ahumblecycler]

I pretend I'm a car. Obey the rules the same.

Can't say about your area, but I assure you that I do better than vehicles in terms of

1) signaling
2) stop signs
3) awareness and respecting road space issues
4) going below the speed limit (working on that one)

Just saying.

[Ralph]

Can't say about your area, but I assure you that I do better than vehicles in terms of

1) signaling
2) stop signs
3) awareness and respecting road space issues
4) going below the speed limit (working on that one)

Just saying.

I just mean in Florida the law says bikes are same as motor vehicles with regard to traffic laws....where possible. The law does not make allowances for cyclists in pace lines, or riding in clipless pedals. Although, when not needing to put my foot down, I've got pretty good at coming to complete stop, without disengaging from pedal. Obviously when on my bike, I'm not a car, and won't argue about space with one, but do the best I can to obey the law same as if I was driving a car. You do have to use your head about it. And as above said....it's important to be courteous and thoughtful to vehicles you share space with.

I mostly stopped riding with large groups some years ago. While each individual rider usually knows to be courteous and thoughtful with vehicular traffic, the pack seems to take on a personality of it's own, hogging the road, etc, many times angering motorists. I don't like to be part of that.

[flydhest]

I pretend I'm a car. Obey the rules the same.

Except that, at least here, every single stop sign sees cars slow down and then roll through them. Traffic lights are a bit different, as most cars will stop if they are going straight, but (again, this is here) for "right turn on red after stop" the "after stop" part gets routinely ignored.

For speed limits (whether in the District or not) cars rarely obey the rules, so I do the same.

One rule I follow that it seems many, many, many car drivers flagrantly ignore is that it is illegal to talk on the phone while driving. I don't do it on a bike (or while driving) and yet easily one third to possibly one half of the cars I pass on my commute have drivers talking on the phone.

So, Ralph, out of curiosity, is that what you meant by pretending you're a car and obeying the same rules?

[TMB]

I pretend I'm a car. Obey the rules the same.


^ this.

[Ralph]

For sure, I don't talk on the phone while riding down the road. We have a nice 14' wide 150 mile long connected trail system where you can do your miles (but not really train) on heavy traffic times, or use it as a way to get out to the less travled roads, and I have seen folks talking on the phone and/or texing while riding.

[dekindy]

It really does not matter what anyone's personal habits are. We must legally follow the rules of the road. Any arguement to the contrary is incorrect. It is as simple as that. Even though I am a cyclist I get as angry as any other motorist when cyclists don't follow the rules.

[flydhest]

It really does not matter what anyone's personal habits are. We must legally follow the rules of the road. Any arguement to the contrary is incorrect. It is as simple as that. Even though I am a cyclist I get as angry as any other motorist when cyclists don't follow the rules.

That is true. I think an interesting perspective, however, is that motorists consistently violate the rules, and so I just find it curious that they get so incensed when bicyclists do. People argue that the rules apply to bicycles as much as they do to cars. Fair enough, but they are ignored by car drivers just as they are by cyclists. To quote a reliable source, "Any arguement (sic) to the contrary is incorrect. It is as simple as that."

[67-59]

Like several others, I will always stop at a red light, but at stop signs I will slow down to a near stop and then proceed through if it's clear...just like I'd do in a car. And I never just blow through a stop sign at full or near-full speed -- always slow down to < 2 or 3 mph, regardless of how clear it seems, just in case. I also would never talk/text on a cell phone (safer than most drivers), never use earphones (safer than many drivers), and always signal turns (safer than most drivers).

Do I technically violate the law? Sure, but way less than probably 90% of the drivers out there (including myself when I'm in a car), and never in a manner that creates any additional danger to me or anyone else. I don't pretend to be perfect - my goal is to be safe, and I don't think the "complete" stop at every sign gets me there.

[mandasol]

I behave like I do while driving. Stop at signals, and at stop signs go slow enough that I can stop in just a few feet if necessary or stop completely if I see any traffic, pedestrians or a patrol vehicle.

[Ozz]

Except that, at least here, every single stop sign sees cars slow down and then roll through them. Traffic lights are a bit different, as most cars will stop if they are going straight, but (again, this is here) for "right turn on red after stop" the "after stop" part gets routinely ignored.

For speed limits (whether in the District or not) cars rarely obey the rules, so I do the same.

One rule I follow that it seems many, many, many car drivers flagrantly ignore is that it is illegal to talk on the phone while driving. I don't do it on a bike (or while driving) and yet easily one third to possibly one half of the cars I pass on my commute have drivers talking on the phone.

So, Ralph, out of curiosity, is that what you meant by pretending you're a car and obeying the same rules?
+1

I pretend I am a car too...and act as Fly-man describes...slow down at stops and if clear...go...same for lights when turning right. Going straight thru lights, I will stop...unless it is 6:00 AM on Saturday...then I will ignore the lights. ;)

One thing I do at four-way stops is to roll up alongside a car going straight, and go thru the stop with it. I figure it helps the car behind me by not having to wait for me to take my turn at the stop. Also, I have the added protection of the car going thru the stop to prevent cross traffic from trying to "bully" me out of my turn to go. Not sure how this stands legally....

My goal when riding in traffic is to keep moving and stay out of the way.

:beer:

[Lifelover]

..... I use my discretion and do whatever is safest, regardless of traffic laws.


This is exactly what I do. However, this does not do much to support cyclist having the same rights as car.

That doesn't bother me.

[flydhest]

My goal when riding in traffic is to keep moving and stay out of the way.



For me it is staying out of the way . . . whether that means moving or something else. My goal is to make it so that drivers never have to do anything different relative to the case if I was not there. Relying on drivers is a bit scary for me. As people often note, almost all cyclists are drivers, but very few drivers are cyclists. I usually have a reasonable idea of what drivers are going to do, I suspect many have little idea how to deal with a bicycle.

[fieldrecordings]

My goal when riding in traffic is to keep moving and stay out of the way.
:beer:
+1.

[AndrewS]

It really does not matter what anyone's personal habits are. We must legally follow the rules of the road. Any arguement to the contrary is incorrect. It is as simple as that. Even though I am a cyclist I get as angry as any other motorist when cyclists don't follow the rules.
You would sacrifice your safety to follow a rule? Laws are not intended to be suicide pacts. And vehicular law frequently does not reflect the reality of bicycles vs. cars, because the laws were not written with bicycles in mind. Anyone who lives in an area where the highway dept. puts the rumble strips all the way to the shoulder knows this.

No, I'm not saying everytime someone rolls a stop sign they are making themselves safer. But frequently the reality of heavy traffic, opening car doors, inattentive drivers and shoulders that become turn lanes will put a cyclist in positions that they can avoid by violating the letter of the law.

I don't think any sort of moral or civic high ground is going to make a spinal injury heal. Nor do I think it should be bicycle anarchy on the streets. But the state is not ultimately in charge of your safety - you are.

[rugbysecondrow]

That is true. I think an interesting perspective, however, is that motorists consistently violate the rules, and so I just find it curious that they get so incensed when bicyclists do. People argue that the rules apply to bicycles as much as they do to cars. Fair enough, but they are ignored by car drivers just as they are by cyclists. To quote a reliable source, "Any arguement (sic) to the contrary is incorrect. It is as simple as that."

I think incensed is the wrong word, disdain is a better one. I as both a motorist and a rider get pissed whether I am in a car or on a bike. I have been waiting at stop lights and seen riders blow right through. While waiting at a stoplight for traffic, others have not even stopped while turning right and blown right through forcing cars to slam on their brakes. The "greater WE" can only be responsible for what WE do and not cars/motorists. When riders cut up to the front of the line at a stop light, then slow traffic down in getting through, that is a dickhead move. When riders opt not to move over when riding side by side and hold traffic up, that is a dickhead move. When riders don't stop at lights, stop signs etc, that is a dickhead move. When riders act in an unpredictable way, that is a dickhead move and pisses motorists off. WE need to try to fix that, unfortunatly many cyclists are dickheads so they do dickhead things. Maybe that makes them as bad as some motorists, but is that a standard that is acceptable?

[rugbysecondrow]

You would sacrifice your safety to follow a rule? Laws are not intended to be suicide pacts. And vehicular law frequently does not reflect the reality of bicycles vs. cars, because the laws were not written with bicycles in mind. Anyone who lives in an area where the highway dept. puts the rumble strips all the way to the shoulder knows this.

No, I'm not saying everytime someone rolls a stop sign they are making themselves safer. But frequently the reality of heavy traffic, opening car doors, inattentive drivers and shoulders that become turn lanes will put a cyclist in positions that they can avoid by violating the letter of the law.

I don't think any sort of moral or civic high ground is going to make a spinal injury heal. Nor do I think it should be bicycle anarchy on the streets. But the state is not ultimately in charge of your safety - you are.

I readyour examples, but I am not sure why one would have to break the law because of them, can you elaborate?

[Lifelover]

I readyour examples, but I am not sure why one would have to break the law because of them, can you elaborate?


Rolling up to a stop sign with clear visibilty and a car approaching from behind.

The best thing I cna do is get through the intersection safely while impeeding the car behind me as little as practical. Coming to a complete stop, exposes me to the dangers of the intersection longer, keeps the driver behind me at the stop sign longer than normal and has him passing me as I'm trying to come to speed most likely in the intersection.

ATMO, rolling through and having him pass me when I'm at speed a few hundred yards past the intersection is a Win-Win.

[AndrewS]

Sure. You're waiting at a red light, trapped between the cars going straight and those squeezing between them and the curb to make a right turn. No one is clearly coming from the green cross traffic, which is part of the reason you have such a fast stream of right turning cars.

I'd remove myself from that situation by rolling the light. Violating the law? Yes. Interfereing with traffic? No. I read a study of motorcycle accidents that stated that motorcycles were frequently at greater risk in heavy stop and go traffic. I think the same principle applies here, but to a greater degree since we frequently don't get our own lane.

Hard sole cleats and icy streets, damaging rumble strips, weight or magnetically activated traffic lights, puddles and tire spray, pea gravel, fog, left turns on multi-lane streets, merging bike paths and streets are all things I've dealt with regularlly that the rules of the road do a poor job addressing.

I don't think this is any different than going traffic speed in Chicago rush hour rather than potentially causing accidents because you are the only car going 55. Being "right" is hardly a comfort.

[jlwdm]

I think these safety claims are ridiculous. Motor vehicles have the right to assume bikes and cars are going to follow the rules of the road. Not following the rules of the road causes problems. If you don't want to follow the laws that is fine but don't give a bogus reason for violating the law.

I don't always follow the laws, but I do when there is traffic around.

If you want to proceed through stop lights after stopping and roll through stop signs legally then move to Idaho.

Edit: the drivers of cars that really make me mad are the ones that do not treat me like a car. Don't wave me through an intersection when it is not my turn.

Jeff

[bobswire]

I readyour examples, but I am not sure why one would have to break the law because of them, can you elaborate?

I suppose if I lived in Ellicot City Maryland ( http://goo.gl/maps/hO1H ) instead of San Francisco ( http://goo.gl/maps/JkEl ) I could be more
tolerant of following the letter of the law. Location location location..... and survival of the species (cyclist).:rolleyes:

[flydhest]

I think incensed is the wrong word, disdain is a better one. I as both a motorist and a rider get pissed whether I am in a car or on a bike. I have been waiting at stop lights and seen riders blow right through. While waiting at a stoplight for traffic, others have not even stopped while turning right and blown right through forcing cars to slam on their brakes. The "greater WE" can only be responsible for what WE do and not cars/motorists. When riders cut up to the front of the line at a stop light, then slow traffic down in getting through, that is a dickhead move. When riders opt not to move over when riding side by side and hold traffic up, that is a dickhead move. When riders don't stop at lights, stop signs etc, that is a dickhead move. When riders act in an unpredictable way, that is a dickhead move and pisses motorists off. WE need to try to fix that, unfortunatly many cyclists are dickheads so they do dickhead things. Maybe that makes them as bad as some motorists, but is that a standard that is acceptable?

I said "incensed" because I was largely repsonding to an earlier post talking about being angry. That said, in my experience, it seems to fit. The purple-faced rage some drivers get is amusing, or would be if it weren't dangerous given that they are in a car that can be a weapon.

Ultimately, though, I don't see why anyone gets upset that someone else rolls through a stop sign or a traffic light if it has no effect on anyone else--whether car or bike. I think it's bad only because you'll get in the habit and do it when it will affect someone else, but per se, I don't see it as a big deal. Heck, homosexual acts are illegal or were illegal for a long, long time in many places, but violating that law wouldn't have anything to do with me so why do I care if someone violates the law? That sort of cut and dried "it's the law and that's all that matters" weirds me out.

Your other point, however, that one can be a dickhead in any form of transport is clearly right. My only point is that I find it inscrutable that people put forward arguments that I, as a cyclist, have to obey the law because cars have to obey those laws, while missing the point that cars do not obey the laws. Worse yet, people somehow think, when the issue of a cyclist being hit by a driver comes up, that there's any link to the fact that some (perhaps even the vast majority) disobey laws and cars' disrespect for cyclists. Everyone is a dickhead, but there's no thought that driving into another car is ok because car drivers don't obey the law.

People are just funny and don't think well, that's my general conclusion about most things in life.

[fourflys]

Hard sole cleats and icy streets, .

why are you wearing hard-sole cleats on icy roads? That's just an accident waiting to happen right there...

as far as rolling a light as you described above.... well, i've ridden motorcycles and while there is a chance someone could rear-end you, I'd have to say it's pretty rare...

what you should do if there is NOT a turn lane in that situation is position yourself smack in the middle between the car going straight and the curb... the cars behind can wait... if there is a turn lane, you should be positioning yourself on the right side of the car going straight, maybe even a foot in front of them so they see you... I do this and have never had an issue here in SoCal...

having all that... I stop at ALL lights that are four way and usually come to almost a complete stop at stop signs...

[AndrewS]

Because the temp dropped 8 degrees and it rained since the ride started. My control of the weather really isn't so hot.

I was asked for an example, and everyone who philosophically disagrees can disect such written example until the cows come home. However, you weren't there, you don't bicycle where I do, and it isn't your butt on the line.

PEOPLE do not pay attention, look more than the direction they want to go, think about their actions or even use conscious thought while driving. Traffic laws and semi-conscious driving are fine 99% of the time, and crumple zones are good for the rest. But even the most modest, low speed collision with a bicyclist will result in maiming or death. Riding a bicycle in traffic is far more dangerous than riding a motorcycle without a helmet, but no one is going to come out and say "riding a bike in traffic is stupid". I do what I can to remove myself from EVERY potential collision. "Pretty rare" is simply not good enough odds.

Cyclists have better hearing and vision than car drivers do, which is the only advantage they possess. If you ride with the cars, like the cars, you're probably giving up that advantage as well.

Annoying drivers by blocking lanes because it is legally correct is not a solution, either. It creates aggressive reactions by drivers, and car horns reduce your awareness of your environment.

Whenever someone tells me that the rules are inflexible and that the only safe action is following them, I wonder what they've done in their life. I was a military pilot, and no fellow pilot I flew with would ever have such a rigid view of safety and procedures. Rules are useful when they work. The rest of the time they are an explanation for a series of bad decisions and a bad outcome.why are you wearing hard-sole cleats on icy roads? That's just an accident waiting to happen right there...

as far as rolling a light as you described above.... well, i've ridden motorcycles and while there is a chance someone could rear-end you, I'd have to say it's pretty rare...

what you should do if there is NOT a turn lane in that situation is position yourself smack in the middle between the car going straight and the curb... the cars behind can wait... if there is a turn lane, you should be positioning yourself on the right side of the car going straight, maybe even a foot in front of them so they see you... I do this and have never had an issue here in SoCal...

having all that... I stop at ALL lights that are four way and usually come to almost a complete stop at stop signs...

[rugbysecondrow]

I said "incensed" because I was largely repsonding to an earlier post talking about being angry. That said, in my experience, it seems to fit. The purple-faced rage some drivers get is amusing, or would be if it weren't dangerous given that they are in a car that can be a weapon.

Ultimately, though, I don't see why anyone gets upset that someone else rolls through a stop sign or a traffic light if it has no effect on anyone else--whether car or bike. I think it's bad only because you'll get in the habit and do it when it will affect someone else, but per se, I don't see it as a big deal. Heck, homosexual acts are illegal or were illegal for a long, long time in many places, but violating that law wouldn't have anything to do with me so why do I care if someone violates the law? That sort of cut and dried "it's the law and that's all that matters" weirds me out.

Your other point, however, that one can be a dickhead in any form of transport is clearly right. My only point is that I find it inscrutable that people put forward arguments that I, as a cyclist, have to obey the law because cars have to obey those laws, while missing the point that cars do not obey the laws. Worse yet, people somehow think, when the issue of a cyclist being hit by a driver comes up, that there's any link to the fact that some (perhaps even the vast majority) disobey laws and cars' disrespect for cyclists. Everyone is a dickhead, but there's no thought that driving into another car is ok because car drivers don't obey the law.

People are just funny and don't think well, that's my general conclusion about most things in life.

It bothers people because it seems unfair, "here I am waiting and that jerk gets to get in line...". I wouldn't let myself get angry, but unhappy certainly.

[MadRocketSci]

that intersection is very crowded on summer weekends, with lines of cars in all directions. Stopping shows a willingness to wait your turn and not be an Ahole in front of a large audience. That said, I don't think anyone would have a problem if 3-4 riders went each turn in a group of 25.

[jlwdm]

I don't see anyone ever having a problem with a tight group of 25 riders all going together.

Jeff

[Mike748]

Edit: the drivers of cars that really make me mad are the ones that do not treat me like a car. Don't wave me through an intersection when it is not my turn.

If its just the two of us, I wave them a thank you and appreciate that they considered my existence at all!

If there are others at our multitude of 4-way stops, then I agree it really messes things up.

[flydhest]

It bothers people because it seems unfair, "here I am waiting and that jerk gets to get in line...". I wouldn't let myself get angry, but unhappy certainly.

That helps. I'm just wired differently, I think.

[rugbysecondrow]

That helps. I'm just wired differently, I think.

Its all good, we all are wired a little different...cheers to that! :beer:

[Pete Serotta]

That helps. I'm just wired differently, I think.


BUT HE IS IN TROUBLE for I am going to track him down in late OCT or early DEC for some good old times. He is witty, smart, a great cook, and a wonderful cook.... He rides too strong so I am always there for the food, friendship and wine......


We need to have a write in ballot to make him a Moderator (for it will keep me out of some :confused: trouble, Now if we could also get KENO!!!!! :D


PETE

[54ny77]

woops...that's a dumb location to roll through individually or as a group.

way too much traffic, single lane, and an wacko intersection with people pulling out of lanes, out of that little shopping center, etc.

(i know it very well--used to live nearby and rode thru it all the time on weekends and sometimes during the week.)

25 cyclists get ticketed for running a stop sign in Woodside Ca. on Aug.28th of this year.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/bicycle/index

Cyclist in and around the San Francisco/San Jose area are very familiar with
Woodside being one of the most popular road destinations in Northern Ca.with some wonderful climbs.
The Amgen Tour of California makes sure to include the area in at least one of their stages such as Old La Honda/Tunitas Creek Rd, Kings Mountain Rd, Alpine Road loop, etc.

I imagine the Police could fill the counties tills writing tickets there for cyclists not making a complete stop. Most of those roads are scenic and many have switchback with very little traffic beyond rush hours.

Anyway I digress, do you stop at every stop sign or do the semi stop roll through when clear?
I'm of the latter, here in San Francisco if I did a complete stop at every sign it would take me forever to make any head way but I don't fly through and do yield to right of way.
Red lights are another story , busy intersections i wait for the lights.
Side streets with lights and no traffic I use my discretion whether to break the law or not.

[rugbysecondrow]

I suppose if I lived in Ellicot City Maryland ( http://goo.gl/maps/hO1H ) instead of San Francisco ( http://goo.gl/maps/JkEl ) I could be more
tolerant of following the letter of the law. Location location location..... and survival of the species (cyclist).:rolleyes:

From when I have ridden in DC, it is easier for me to follow the law because it is easier to assimilate into traffic. It is a PR thing as well as a safety thing. Be predictable, be a good steward, represent well.

[MadRocketSci]

maybe the smarter thing to do in the future would be to take the dirt horsepath before the stop sign and meet up in the parking lot behind Buck's...

[fourflys]

I was a military pilot, and no fellow pilot I flew with would ever have such a rigid view of safety and procedures. Rules are useful when they work. The rest of the time they are an explanation for a series of bad decisions and a bad outcome.

really? so pilots just throw caution to the wind, huh? Hmm, guess I'll have to ask my two friends at church that fly F-18's or the guys at work that fly HH-60 helos... while emergency situations might dictate an alternate plan, my experience with pilots is that they are VERY rule oriented and stick annoyingly close to procedures...

if you want to see what happens when procedures are NOT followed, read this report (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/25/marine-crash-report-accepts-some-blame/) ,at least two agencies didn't follow proper procedures and 7 are dead....

[AndrewS]

Everybody's an expert, I guess. :rolleyes:

[Blue Jays]

"...at least two agencies didn't follow proper procedures and 7 are dead..."Use caution as it reports 9 are dead.

[fourflys]

Use caution as it reports 9 are dead.

doh, you're right... brain freeze...

BTW- not an expert, just been around military aviation for about 15 years...

[rugbysecondrow]

really? so pilots just throw caution to the wind, huh? Hmm, guess I'll have to ask my two friends at church that fly F-18's or the guys at work that fly HH-60 helos... while emergency situations might dictate an alternate plan, my experience with pilots is that they are VERY rule oriented and stick annoyingly close to procedures...

if you want to see what happens when procedures are NOT followed, read this report (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/25/marine-crash-report-accepts-some-blame/) ,at least two agencies didn't follow proper procedures and 7 are dead....
I spent 10 years doing Command and Control in the Air Force, pilots follow the rules. They better be as many of our airline pilots are current or former military. Pilots are VERY detail and rules oriented in my experiences.

[Blue Jays]

In all seriousness though, I use seat-of-the-pants common sense to determine what is safest for me as the cyclist and most convenient, speedy, and predictable for motorists nearby.
For example, there is a gentle merge nearby with a stop sign. It would only serve to endanger me and infuriate motorists if I took the time to stop, unclip, and restart...so I adapt to happily benefit everyone.

[bobswire]

I spent 10 years doing Command and Control in the Air Force, pilots follow the rules. They better be as many of our airline pilots are current or former military. Pilots are VERY detail and rules oriented in my experiences.

Funny , I was an Air Policeman , Lackland AFB, Altus AFB and Bein Hoa Air Base Vietnam ('64-'66).
Yet I still suggest it's better to have a minor traffic infraction than it is getting caught between a rock and hardplace by strictly following rules.

But from reading this thread....I think we take one another views too literal.

[Jeff N.]

25 cyclists get ticketed for running a stop sign in Woodside Ca. on Aug.28th of this year.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/bicycle/index

Cyclist in and around the San Francisco/San Jose area are very familiar with
Woodside being one of the most popular road destinations in Northern Ca.with some wonderful climbs.
The Amgen Tour of California makes sure to include the area in at least one of their stages such as Old La Honda/Tunitas Creek Rd, Kings Mountain Rd, Alpine Road loop, etc.

I imagine the Police could fill the counties tills writing tickets there for cyclists not making a complete stop. Most of those roads are scenic and many have switchback with very little traffic beyond rush hours.

Anyway I digress, do you stop at every stop sign or do the semi stop roll through when clear?
I'm of the latter, here in San Francisco if I did a complete stop at every sign it would take me forever to make any head way but I don't fly through and do yield to right of way.
Red lights are another story , busy intersections i wait for the lights.
Side streets with lights and no traffic I use my discretion whether to break the law or not.Man, that's just top-notch police work, if you ask me. Cop's probably Chief of Police by now. :rolleyes:

[AndrewS]

I see that you guys are completely missing the point. Of course you follow the rules, when it is safe to do so. As I did as a pilot. But there were also a multitude of times when sticking to the letter of the rule would get you in trouble, as I attempted to articulate about bicycling in heavy traffic.

If you want an aviation example (so you have further fodder to argue with an expert from your armchairs), in turbulance you might allow a momentary deviation of an ILS approach needle to go beyond missed approach criteria, but complete the approach anyway. Why? Because you know why the needle went that far and going around in increasingly bad weather brings increased risk to aircraft and passengers. But violating a rule it was.

Navy flight manuals (NATOPS) even have a special section that tells you under what circumstances a pilot may deviate from the rules. The last criteria was something like "at the discretion and sound judgement of the pilot when the safety of people or property are at stake".

I never said, "do whatever you want". I said that it was sometimes necessary to violate a rule, even a safety rule, for safety. Does anyone think the lawmakers could possibly envision every possible situation you might find yourself in?

Use your judgement. Safety first. Following the rules are less important than anyone's life. Take responsibility for yourself and others.

[bobswire]

Man, that's just top-notch police work, if you ask me. Cop's probably Chief of Police by now. :rolleyes:

I wonder what they would have done if all the cyclist took off on different routes. :confused:

[spartacus]

I tend to take what I consider to be the sensible approach and act in a manner that I believe to be the safest in any given situation regardless of the fine print of the law based on quite a number of years of experience of cycling on the road. It means in reality that I do follow the law most of the time, but not always, and because on occasion I can anticipate based on my experience that other road users are about to disregard the same laws themselves. Ultimately it's my life and I will preserve it with whatever action I deem necessary at the given moment. The law is secondary to my own biological programming for survival. I do not ignore red lights simply to keep up my forward momentum.

[fourflys]

. I do not ignore red lights simply to keep up my forward momentum.

that's a great summary and some good words to live by right there... :)

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post as well..

[pdmtong]

I'm late to the party but IMHO there is no reason NOT to stop at that intersection.

Packs, and I mean packs, blasting that crossing upset the flow of traffic and frankly create dangerous situationsfor all.

As a result, full stop is advised at a lot of the nearby intersections...local cops out in force ticketing the lycra crew.

[bicyclego]

One of our group rides had a large number of riders (30-50? can't remember) get ticketed in one fell swoop. Then another group ride got nabbed a few days later. This despite the cops coming the week before to tell us it was going to happen. Many of the riders were "yeah, yeah, whatever". I read the writing on the wall and stopped going on the ride and was spared the traffic violation.

I always stop for red lights. Always stop at signs when another vehicle is present or when the traffic situation is complex enough that I feel it merits stopping in the interest of safety. At 2-way and 4-way stops with clear visibility and no other vehicles, I'll slow and roll.

[I Want Sachs?]

I have biked through this exact intersection many many times since it is part of my routine ride. I have never ever not stop at that stop sign, because it would be unsafe not to stop. I have my kids stop at that intersection, every single time.

I know on group rides, the group mentality takes over and riders feel safety in numbers, which actually is a false sense of security. I can see why many non-riders are happy that police gave out tickets in this scenario.

[sevencyclist]

I'm late to the party but IMHO there is no reason NOT to stop at that intersection.

Packs, and I mean packs, blasting that crossing upset the flow of traffic and frankly create dangerous situationsfor all.

As a result, full stop is advised at a lot of the nearby intersections...local cops out in force ticketing the lycra crew.
This is on my loop. I agree. I would never go through that corner without stopping. I have seen quite a few dangerous turns by brazen pack riders.

[rugbysecondrow]

But from reading this thread....I think we take one another views too literal.
Agreed. :)

[bironi]

It is a situational and cultural choice. :beer:

[bobswire]

This is on my loop. I agree. I would never go through that corner without stopping. I have seen quite a few dangerous turns by brazen pack riders.


BTW for the record. I listed the article only as a point of reference about stop signs and in no way support the cyclist if they actually all ran through that intersection. :no:
I too have gone through that intersection and with traffic coming and going in all directions it is one of those MUST stop intersections.

[Jeff N.]

I got busted not long ago for blowing a stop sign. The fine was $88.00. NO DMV penalty, but.... Jeff N.

[bironi]

BTW for the record. I listed the article only as a point of reference about stop signs and in no way support the cyclist if they actually all ran through that intersection. :no:
I too have gone through that intersection and with traffic coming and going in all directions it is one of those MUST stop intersections.

Is the intersection in question, the one with a smallish Roberts grocery store?

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

But do they ticket cars (or my favorite, the SUV with driver smoking cig, checking email, talking on the cell and having a cup of "gourmet" coffee, all at the same time) that "roll" through the stop signs?

[rugbysecondrow]

But do they ticket cars (or my favorite, the SUV with driver smoking cig, checking email, talking on the cell and having a cup of "gourmet" coffee, all at the same time) that "roll" through the stop signs?
Yes