Do "normal" riders benefit from a custom frame?

[AndrewS]

It was suggested once again in a recent thread that the absolute key to the perfect frame was a high end fitting and custom made frame.

One can certainly imagine many reasons for a custom frame - the most obvious are unusual features (extra bosses), frame dimensions to match an outside-of-average shaped body (long legs) or tubing stiffnesses to match an outside of average weight or power. These make perfect sense, and this list is not exhaustive.

On the other hand, if you want something that rides like a stage race bike, if you don't need any special features, if you have a body shape and weight in a fairly typical range and a somewhat standard riding style, are you going to get anything additional out of a custom bike aside from pride?

It seems like part of the custom trend lately is that people have brand fixations. In the old days, if you wanted an Italian frame and the Basso was too harsh, you would buy a Pinerello, instead. Now it seems more like you decide on the Basso (for whatever reason) and then decide how you want it to ride. Brands used to have ride and fit philosophies, and if they didn't match your needs, you'd just go to a brand that did.

This seems strange to me because it dilutes the presence of a brand. Ultimately, if every brand can customize its bikes to suit any customer, what was the point of buying one brand over another? Decals? (I'm assuming we are talking about close comparisons in the first place - one tig'd 853 frame vs. another, both with good paint.)

Any good builder uses a stock geometry, and departs from it only as necessary. They arrived at that geometry by their considerable experience, and what they want their bikes to do. Within a certain range, seat and handlebar location are infinitely adjustable. So why would an average guy require a specially fit frame to enjoy a good builder's stock bike?

Anyway, here's a poll. I think the custom thing gets just a little too much mention. If you are within an average range, there should be several high end frames that come in 2cm increments and ought to be exactly what you need.

[rugbysecondrow]

Of course, if you can afford a custom and that is how you want to spend your money, then go for it and get it how you want and it will be yours. When a Trek Madone with SRAM Force can cost $4k, you can build up a custom Bedford for that amount or a Ready Custom Serotta this spring that has more sizing options, there are some options available. A cervelo frameset alone will often run more than 2K, that is more than the cost of a custom Bedford. I think people assume custom is more expensive, when that might not be the case.

With that said, I do think many people could do just fine with a stock frame so long as they are average size (airline seat size maybe). I am 6'2" and weigh 225, and I know I have benefited from having a custom frame (shout out to Smiley and Bedford again) but I also did not try all stock sizes available. The truth is that most bike shops don't stock many bikes in my size, so riding many models is not often possible.

[malcolm]

I ride mostly custom frames and from a fit perspective I don't really need them. I now can ride most anything between 54-56 cm top tube with something in the 73 deg square range of angles, give or take.

I choose to go custom for several reasons. I'm old and don't plan on racing, so don't really need or want the latest in carbon lightness, although I do have a custom parlee, it is my least ridden bike. I like steel, I like the fact that a good builder can generally produce a more fluid look, vs a mountain of spacers or oddly placed saddle.

I'll separate this out because I feel it is most important reason I ride custom. If a bike is just a tool to you by all means ride the cdale or whatever, they are all well made and perform their function very well. I on the other hand just appreciate that one guy in his shop selected the tubes, mitered the joints brazed it together and created something to me that is greater than the sum of its parts. It is really the same reason I used to like guns, I just had an appreciation for the simplicity and craftsmanship same with a nice mechanical watch, it is a little machine that does its job fantastically, even though a quartz will keep better time, that little machine just keeps on going.

[MattTuck]

If people ONLY bought customs because of fit issues that couldn't be solved on a stock bike, there would be a lot less customs.

Many (if not most) people that buy customs are buying it for what it represents. A craft product, like a bespoke suit or hiring a designer to give your house a make over. It looks and performs better than an off the rack solution. The custom gives you the opportunity to get it exactly how you want, paint, frame material, geometry. It's not about finding the perfect fit for most people, it is being able to say, these tubes were made in x, and y put them together in z place, and I've talked to him, and now I'm riding a beautiful machine.

It's about buying into a pedigree and provenance more than "some factory in china." I guess in some ways it is like wine... if you don't know any better Gallo seems like a perfectly nice wine. If, however, you go to a small vineyard or winery, and meet with the winemaker, see the vines, see the work and passion that goes into making a bottle, well, the next time you're at the store and see that brand, it has a different meaning than a big commercial brand.

That's my opinion, and I didn't vote, as I think the two options miss the point of custom for many people.

[jblande]

That's my opinion, and I didn't vote, as I think the two options miss the point of custom for many people.


Agree 100%.

Strikes me as a false binary.

The emphasis on fit is the mojo of a certain custom firms. But the customs I would be interested in are a benefit, insofar as I like the work they are doing at that price. I have got my fit figured out.

[ergott]

I just had a conversation about this with Mr. Kirk. I hope he elaborates here because I would hate to paraphrase him and get it wrong. Something along the lines of the folks on the ends of the sizing bell curve would benefit more so, but not exclusively.

My words not his.

[benb]

I usually seem to think if you're in the 54-57 size range you're in the sweet spot for stock frames.. get much taller or shorter and things started to get harder.

I'm 6'1", I have definitely benefited from getting a custom frame.. part of that was the learning experience.. getting a custom frame you're (hopefully) getting involved with a more knowledgeable group of folks and it can speed up learning exactly what you need..

Now that I know exactly what I need/want out of a frame, I think the next one can be stock.. but I will be shopping VERY differently. I'll end up finding a bike that has a geometry as close to my custom bike as possible and then figure out how I acquire one of those frames. Very different then walking into several LBSes and letting them try to squeeze me onto whatever brands they happen to sell... as there is a very good chance they will try to squeeze me onto something that doesn't fit right.

So in general I'm of the mindset that almost everyone can benefit.. some people will get lucky and figure out their optimal position very quickly and end up on a stock frame that is ideal very quickly.. but most people won't have the right stock frame available locally and won't learn how to figure out which frame is right.

Of course with the cost of chinese built stock frames being so high.. I might just end up with another custom frame next time I need/want something.

[AndrewS]

Many (if not most) people that buy customs are buying it for what it represents. A craft product, like a bespoke suit or hiring a designer to give your house a make over. It looks and performs better than an off the rack solution.
Matt, the highlighted passages reflect the reason I posted this poll.

Either a custom "represents" a principle, or it "performs better".

And just so this is clear, pick your favorite high end brand that offers both custom and stock (Parlee, Lynskey, Waterford, etc.), then compare them:
Quality and craftsmanship: Check.
Builder's particular design philosophy and geometry: Check.
Pleasing aesthetics: Check.

After that, the only things that are left are features, shape and tube selection.

I knew someone would mention custom suits, but I think that's a poor comparison - suits have a hundred of points of contact with the body (2000, if the soap people are to be believed). A bicycle has only 3, and they are located in only 2 dimensions. If anything, a bike frame is more comparable to a belt, that can be thick/thin, long/short, curved/straight, and have the holes located here or there.

So if I buy stock Waterford R-22 in my size, painted in my choice of colors, have I received less of a bike than a custom R-22 built to the same standards, but after an exhaustive customization program? That's what the poll is trying to reflect. Not Cannondale vs. Richard Sachs.

[mister]

I just had a conversation about this with Mr. Kirk. I hope he elaborates here because I would hate to paraphrase him and get it wrong. Something along the lines of the folks on the ends of the sizing bell curve would benefit more so, but not exclusively.

My words not his.

yeah pretty much.
most of the the real small and real large frames are designed so that the handling will leave something to be desired. so getting a custom will be a nice improvement even if you can "fit" on a stock frame fine.

for me getting a custom was all about the design.
i've been riding long enough i know my fit isn't going to change drastically so i've got a frame i'll be able to ride for the next 10/20/30/40 years or whatever...unless it gets destroyed by a car or something.

[benb]

Two bikes that have the contact points in the same places but are otherwise different will not perform the same.

It's really a false dichotomy..

[Climb01742]

a frozen TV dinner, and a mickey d burger, and a meal made by a chef, made by hand, with ingredients he/she chose will all keep you alive. the choice of which you eat is perhaps 20% logical and 80% personal/emotional. asking someone to justify that choice is mostly just grist for arguing.

[Kevan]

with variables available in seatpost (saddle), crank, stem, steerer and bars, I'm strickly an off-the-rack kinda guy. I think most folk fit this bill.

Now intended purpose and performance is a different matter.

[AndrewS]

a frozen TV dinner, and a mickey d burger, and a meal made by a chef, made by hand, with ingredients he/she chose will all keep you alive. the choice of which you eat is perhaps 20% logical and 80% personal/emotional. asking someone to justify that choice is mostly just grist for arguing.
Again, this really misses the point. Same chef: but are you ordering on or off the menu?

[Charles M]

Bad options...



Custom is about fit... AND



Custom is about handling...

Custom is about ride charactar...

Custom is about Flex...

Custom can be about weight...



Can you find a stock bike in precisely your size WITHOUT sacrificing with too many headset spacers, too long or short a stem, the right setback on the post so that you clamp near the center of your saddle rails... These parts sacrifices / exceptions also effect performance.

Will it also be in exactly the geometry you want... (just because your hands feet and ass are in the right spot doesnt mean you got there with the right front center, wheel base and rake and trail)

And if all of the above if right, is the tube set too stiff or too flexy or exactly what you need to both perform and feel the way you want.




A PERFECT FIT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A PERFECT BIKE.


a more reasonable question is, do both the customer, builder and shop really know enough about what they like and dont like about bikes in order to get the full potential from custom...

[MattTuck]

Matt, the highlighted passages reflect the reason I posted this poll.

Either a custom "represents" a principle, or it "performs better".

And just so this is clear, pick your favorite high end brand that offers both custom and stock (Parlee, Lynskey, Waterford, etc.), then compare them:
Quality and craftsmanship: Check.
Builder's particular design philosophy and geometry: Check.
Pleasing aesthetics: Check.

After that, the only things that are left are features, shape and tube selection.

I knew someone would mention custom suits, but I think that's a poor comparison - suits have a hundred of points of contact with the body (2000, if the soap people are to be believed). A bicycle has only 3, and they are located in only 2 dimensions. If anything, a bike frame is more comparable to a belt, that can be thick/thin, long/short, curved/straight, and have the holes located here or there.

So if I buy stock Waterford R-22 in my size, painted in my choice of colors, have I received less of a bike than a custom R-22 built to the same standards, but after an exhaustive customization program? That's what the poll is trying to reflect. Not Cannondale vs. Richard Sachs.

I think in the case you're describing, they are equal. If you fit on a stock bike from the builder you want, why go the custom route? As you mention though, outside of Serotta, Parlee and a few others, you're not going to find many custom frame builders that have stock products. I think that's part of the allure of someone like Dave Kirk or Zanc, when they are working on a frame, they are building it for YOU (regardless of fit issues), and that is a special feeling. It's not so much about the number of contact points, it's about the feeling of getting something 100% purpose built for you.

I don't have any other hobbies that have that kind of option for equipment. I guess maybe it would be like a guy who makes custom fly rods. There are a plethora of commercially available rods in all shapes and styles. Still, having something built for you is special. (Same reason people build custom houses, instead of just moving into a stock design)

Some people might say it is for ego, or a status symbol. I'd argue that to most people couldn't say whether a "Zancanato" was better than a Huffy, (even people that ride a decent amount) in the same way the average person could say a Bentley is better than a ford. If you're really looking to get noticed, you go with the high zoot big name maker.

[William]

If you feel so inclined for some reading, here is a link to a similar question from when a lot more builders used to hang out here.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=13481&highlight=custom



William

[Ray]

Define "normal" rider and "perfect" frame and then we can perhaps talk?

I think we've had this discussion about a million times, but "fit" is just the first step in a "perfect" frame. Fit is mostly about contact points. As a guy with a relatively average 5' 11" body, I can "fit" on a LOT of frames. I've ridden a LOT of frames and I made every one of them fit, in terms of knowing my contact points. All of these were in the general vicinity of stage race to sport touring types of frames. Some felt and rode well, some felt and rode like crap with my relatively average body sitting on it in my perhaps below average position (from a performance standpoint - perhaps above average, looking at it it from the side).

The key after you have the "fit" nailed down is where the wheels sit relative to your weight and your contact points. How long is the front center and how long are the chainstays and, to a slightly lesser level of importance, what is the front end geometry that establishes that front center and how low is the BB relative to the axles. And also, how stiff the tubing is in various locations plays some role, but probably more for some riders than for others.

I had a really nice spec bike that I put a LOT of miles on over a period of about 7-8 years. I tried a bunch of other frames and liked and disliked them to varying degrees, but none topped or equalled my #1 rig. There were still things I didn't particularly love about #1 though and when I decided to try a custom, it was with the idea that I'd find out once and for all if this was as good as it got (not bad at all, if that was the conclusion) or if more was possible. TK at Spectrum was one of just a couple of fitter/designers that I'd read NOTHING but raves about, he's close by, and a lot of locals ride his frames, so I called him up and went up to the barn.

And it turned out that quite a bit more was possible, at least for me and the way I rode. Where my previous #1 was a nice bike, there were compromises in the ride and handling - some things it did really well and some it just felt adequately good doing. The Spectrum was seemingly without compromise, perfect for everything I wanted it to do. Obviously there are compromises designed into any frame, but the compromises designed into this one all played to what I wanted, to my position on the bike, etc. And the difference between it and the previous #1 were not subtle or something I'd just be making up to confirm my buying decision - at least not after the first few months had passed. I can rationalize bad decisions for a short period of time before admitting a mistake, but within a few months the truth will show its ugly head. After several years, I've never had a doubt about this frame and never wanted to try anything else because "better" than this is just beyond my ability to conceptualize.

Now, the second Spectrum was designed specifically with some compromises in mind - more relaxed, more stable, better with fat tires, etc. But not as responsive, not quite perfect steering geometry with the skinnier tires I sometimes ride on it, etc. And its exactly what I asked for and its my second favorite frame ever. But I didn't bond with it like I did with the first one because it wasn't designed with my everyday riding in mind. So, I'm very very happy and satisfied with it, but its not semi-magical like the first one is.

Just for the record, NONE of this translates into me being ANY faster than I was before. I suppose because the ride and handling are so much to my liking, I may be slightly faster on a really long ride because I'm more relaxed on the bike in the first place, but its not like there's a magic geometry that will make you faster. Unless its a radical enough difference that it just allows or makes you want to ride a LOT more miles than you had been before. I was already riding as many miles I was ever going to, so no performance increases, whatever those are. Just a much more pleasing and confident riding experience - I've never felt like I was fighting this bike.

So, if I'm a "normal" rider, then, yeah, people without crazy physical abnormalities can benefit from a custom frame. They can probably ride very happily on stock frames for years (I did) or forever. But I'd be most would be really surprised at how much difference a frame designed by a real master can make in their riding.

-Ray

[Ray]

It's not so much about the number of contact points, it's about the feeling of getting something 100% purpose built for you.

God, I hope not! Most of us who are not handicapped have approximately two hands, two feet, and one ass (two cheeks I guess, if you wanna be picky). :cool: I'd hate to think I'm paying a custom fitter/designer/builder to create MORE contact points! Maybe just put them in the right place....

-Ray

[1centaur]

I knew someone would mention custom suits, but I think that's a poor comparison - suits have a hundred of points of contact with the body (2000, if the soap people are to be believed). A bicycle has only 3, and they are located in only 2 dimensions. If anything, a bike frame is more comparable to a belt, that can be thick/thin, long/short, curved/straight, and have the holes located here or there.

Sounds only have two points of contact (in a human) but the waves that reach those points can be created in many ways.

It's a forum truism that wheels/tires can really change a ride, yet neither wheel touches a contact point. They change the ride by changing the sensations that travel through the frame and components to the contact points. Frame geometry, tube selection and joining techniques are part of that sensation matrix.

The poll question hinges around the word "benefit." I think thoughtful custom bikes can benefit every rider one way or another (including visually), but most typically sized people will not be consistently faster on a custom because of its geometry vs. a stock frame. So my poll answer would be "both."

[David Kirk]

Frankly, and no offense is meant by this, this is a bit of a silly question isn't it? Does anyone really 'need' a custom bike? Aside from a very few with disabilities I think all of us could pull a bike off the shelf, throw our leg over it and get from point A to B and life would be OK. We all did this as children and did we ever have more fun than we did then? Riding around on a dept. store bike that fit someone a foot taller then we were? Some folks would be more OK than others but we could all ride and most would even have fun.

But would we be as comfortable, as quick, and have as much fun as we would if we had a bike that really suited our bodies and our needs? I think not.

I agree that for many custom is about fit. I know that at it's core custom is about fit for me. I'm tall and like a long top tube and to my knowledge there are no 'off the shelf' bikes that will fit my body. I could be wrong and maybe someone will cite brand X having one but I don't know of it. But even aside from this, IMO, I benefit from having a bike that has had subtle but important tweaks that, when looked at one at a time, look like they would do nothing to change the experience .......... but when looked at in their entirety show a design that will fit, handle, ride, flex and look a way that is suits me best. It was built for me and I have more fun on it as a result.

I know there are downsides to having a bike built for you. There is often a wait and you can't buy it and ride it on the same day. I know it can be a bit scary buying something that you can't test ride. I also know that there are precious few issues with having a bike built for you if you pick a reputable builder whom you trust and then let them do their job. Along with this I know that a good builder stands behind every aspect of his work to make sure that the customer is happy and well served. And I also know that the cost of a handbuilt is now often less, sometimes much less, than a stock bike built for the average Joe using stock numbers and all too often rely on a single fork rake regardless of the size/geometry of the bike.

In the end, unless you want a bike today, I have a hard time coming up with reasons to buy an off the shelf bike regardless of your fitting needs. Why buy a bike built by a nameless and faceless person that was designed to fit some blend of average size and cost control when one could have a bike, made from most any material you are interested in, designed and built for you, the way you ride and your aesthetic tastes? Why not buy a bike from a craftsman and a person instead of a conglomerate? Why not have a relationship that will last a life time instead of a 30 second deal with an online retailer whom you've never even talked with? These are the real questions in my opinion.

Dave

[godfrey1112000]

Frankly, and no offense is meant by this, this is a bit of a silly question isn't it? Does anyone really 'need' a custom bike? Aside from a very few with disabilities I think all of us could pull a bike off the shelf, throw our leg over it and get from point A to B and life would be OK. We all did this as children and did we ever have more fun than we did then? Riding around on a dept. store bike that fit someone a foot taller then we were? Some folks would be more OK than others but we could all ride and most would even have fun.

But would we be as comfortable, as quick, and have as much fun as we would if we had a bike that really suited our bodies and our needs? I think not.

I agree that for many custom is about fit. I know that at it's core custom is about fit for me. I'm tall and like a long top tube and to my knowledge there are no 'off the shelf' bikes that will fit my body. I could be wrong and maybe someone will cite brand X having one but I don't know of it. But even aside from this, IMO, I benefit from having a bike that has had subtle but important tweaks that, when looked at one at a time, look like they would do nothing to change the experience .......... but when looked at in their entirety show a design that will fit, handle, ride, flex and look a way that is suits me best. It was built for me and I have more fun on it as a result.

I know there are downsides to having a bike built for you. There is often a wait and you can't buy it and ride it on the same day. I know it can be a bit scary buying something that you can't test ride. I also know that there are precious few issues with having a bike built for you if you pick a reputable builder whom you trust and then let them do their job. Along with this I know that a good builder stands behind every aspect of his work to make sure that the customer is happy and well served. And I also know that the cost of a handbuilt is now often less, sometimes much less, than a stock bike built for the average Joe using stock numbers and all too often rely on a single fork rake regardless of the size/geometry of the bike.

In the end, unless you want a bike today, I have a hard time coming up with reasons to buy an off the shelf bike regardless of your fitting needs. Why buy a bike built by a nameless and faceless person that was designed to fit some blend of average size and cost control when one could have a bike, made from most any material you are interested in, designed and built for you, the way you ride and your aesthetic tastes? Why not buy a bike from a craftsman and a person instead of a conglomerate? Why not have a relationship that will last a life time instead of a 30 second deal with an online retailer whom you've never even talked with? These are the real questions in my opinion.

Dave

I agree, most could buy "off the Rack" at the LBS

Conceptually, most think Custom Fit will make the total experience "better"
It might I do not know I am one of the lucky people who found the bike at the LBS and have loved it for the last seven years and 76k miles,

I have noticed that there is a high level of expectation from the people I know who have done the custom, fit, performance and post ride

It seems like there is a lot of "tweeking" after the delivery, seat position, handle bar position and et al, one person was working on his custom two years after delivery and it is finally right. He is 6'3", but wanted the dream machine. He did the homework and had a good fit at a Dallas LBS, the big one.

Watching him go through that painful time period cured me of the custom bug, one thing he was lucky with was price, he did it about 4-5 years ago and that was when the price on a fully loaded Seven with DA w/o wheels was $8k, now that threshold is over $11k-15k

If it is not perfect, I believe there could be some "let down"

There are many reasons to go custom but in the end it has to be happiness and ride satisfaction,

[AndrewS]

I guess that suggests a "why buy stock?" post:

Why buy a stock Waterford (nothing nameless/faceless about that) vs. a custom (in no particular order):

1. Reviews. The magazines and fellow riders can tell you an awful lot about the qualities of a bicycle, as long as they are talking about one consistant model. If there is nothing consistant about the geometry or tube selection (ride/stiffness) philosophy of a model, there is no guide for comparing it to other bikes.

2. Test rides. There are 5 high end bike shops within 15 minutes of me. They might not have everything, but they have an awful lot. And if what you want to buy isn't too far outside the norm, they may be willing to bring your size in even if you can't guarantee a purchase.

3. Resale. Let's face it, we all get itchy feet. A stock high end frame is a known quantity. A super dialed in custom may not work well for anyone else, and we've all heard stories about getting someone else's custom.

4. Want it now(ish). While getting what you want when you want it is often treated as a symptom of ADHD and the decline of Western culture, waiting a full bike season for a bike is a waste of what could have been some great riding on a nice, new bike.

5. Control. To a certain extent, a custom sized frame is an act of faith. A stock frame with published geometry is an educated choice - if you understand what the rake, seat angle and front center actually does, YOU get to make the choice of what's right for you. No, everyone doesn't need to become a geometry expert, but if you are that type of person, a stock frame eliminates the need for the custom builder to convince you that he knows better (even if you already believe that to be true).

6. Choice. You can get a "stock" bike from an individual maker (who often build bikes for "stock" when they have down time), a custom house, like Lynskey and Waterford, or a stock only company like Look, Time or Cervelo (or even Giant). There are some amazing production bikes out there, and the ability to understand how to approach buying a stock frame broadens your selection in finding the right bicycle for you, which may well be a Trek Madone that just 'feels' exactly right.


Keep in mind that there aren't any magic geometries or truly different riding frames (Slingshot is long gone). A custom maker is not going to create a bike with angles or ride characteristics that are much different than someone elses stock bike (unless it is no longer a road style frame we're talking about). A custom maker is, in many ways, a personal shopper that hooks you up with your preferred fit and ride so you don't have to go looking for it (if you knew what you were looking for).

[malcolm]

I would argue that a good custom from a reputable builder should require considerably less tweeking than an off the rack from the usual S,M,ML,L choices often avail or even companies that give cm or less increments as then things such as head tube length are decided for you and you have to adjust for drop, not to mention angles and tt length now you have stem length to consider. All this is addressed before hand with a good custom build.

As far as resale goes, custom sells around here as fast or faster than off the rack. I'll agree you need some ability to determine what works for you, but hopefully if you are dropping that kind of coin you've figured those things out.

[tch]

... a more reasonable question is, do both the customer, builder and shop really know enough about what they like and dont like about bikes in order to get the full potential from custom...
I think this is a CRITICAL question. Unless you are a person who has already ridden a lot and thought a lot about fit, performance, and general characteristics of both you and your bike, this can be a tricky part of getting a custom.
For instance, I got a custom Concours 9 years ago -- but I didn't really ride enough or know enough about what I wanted/needed at that point. So what I got was a bike that fit my obvious needs at the time, but did not address some other things I wasn't thinking about. My shorter top tube (needed then) was not really needed after I started riding more and smarter, and the resulting abbreviated front-center of the bike has begun to bother me now. Similarly, I didn't really understand the benefits of wider tires, so my bike only just barely accepts 25c Michelins. I don't really blame the fitter; it's just that maybe I didn't know enough at the time to fully maximize my custom experience.

Now many custom buyers are experienced, "mature" riders, and many designers (RS, Kirk, TK, etc) are quite good at teasing out not only present needs/thoughts but incorporating room for future needs..... but it's quite a trick to get it all right if the buyer and designer are not as knowlegeable as they might be. I'd suggest that if you are "normal" sized, it might be best NOT to go custom until you know exactly what you want/need.
That said, custom for an experienced, knowledgeable rider probably yields benefits he/she may never get any other way.

[bicyclego]

"Why buy a bike built by a nameless and faceless person that was designed to fit some blend of average size and cost control when one could have a bike, made from most any material you are interested in, designed and built for you, the way you ride and your aesthetic tastes? "

I think this sums it up nicely. My wife and I, at the time we were selecting our wedding rings, were faced with a similar question. We found some nice rings that were to both of our liking at the various stores in the area; However, ultimately, we chose to go with rings made by an artist specifically FOR US.

The connection between the object and the event, between object and meaning were then, for us more intimately bound together. The object(s) now exists for no other reason but to represent our commitment to each other.

Further, we appreciated that we fully knew where our money was going, that we were supporting a specific individual and their craft.

I'm spot on average when it comes to height, weight, etc. A 54cm (M) bike from most will fit me just fine. But at some level these are just commodities. I buy them, ride them, sell them when I'm ready for something new.

I would love to have custom frame, but I'm a cheap cuss who'll likely never afford himself the luxury of a custom, considering that I'm perfectly happy on a commodity frame. Now, if only I can find a "stock" 953 frameset...

[jlwdm]

It seems like there is a lot of "tweeking" after the delivery, seat position, handle bar position and et al, one person was working on his custom two years after delivery and it is finally right. He is 6'3", but wanted the dream machine. He did the homework and had a good fit at a Dallas LBS, the big one.



There should not be a lot of tweaking unless the rider is someone who likes to constantly tweak. Eddy M was a big tweaker.

Did he really have a good fit?

Jeff

[David Kirk]

It seems like there is a lot of "tweeking" after the delivery, seat position, handle bar position and et al, one person was working on his custom two years after delivery and it is finally right. He is 6'3", but wanted the dream machine. He did the homework and had a good fit at a Dallas LBS, the big one.

If it is not perfect, I believe there could be some "let down"

I understand what you are saying but still, I'm not sure I get it. How is this different than buying a stock bike. He got it and messed with it until it was right. I feels the same to me. The thing that feels different between the stock and custom in this case was expectation - expectation that he would roll the bike out of the car and be set for life. If that was the case he got the short end of the stick.

And at the same time our story tells me that not all designers/builders are equal. A qualified builder will give a suggestion as to saddle height, stem length, spacer count......etc for the rider to start out with. I am realistic and never pretend that there might not be a slight tweak of a mm here or there to get things just so. I think anyone who tells you that you need 12 mm of spacers and that 10 is too few and 15 is too many is lying. No one can make that judgement aside from the rider and only after the bike is being used.

You story says to me that the ball was dropped at the retailer/fitter and not picked back up. A good builder, IMO, will be sure to deal with the service after delivery to be sure that all is as it should be - and if it's not then he should make it so.

Look - **** happens and nothing is perfect with either a handbuilt or stock transaction. It all comes down to how close it was and how it is dealt with after the check has been cashed. Your guy got the short end of the stick and that sucks but that is not how a professional deals with it and not how I, or any of my pro brethren, do business. Just the same as buying a stock bike from a retailer can go bad, so can a custom. Your argument could just as easily be flipped - think of the percentage of stock bikes that are 100% right. I've got a free custom for you that says the percentage is much lower with a pro handbuilt guy than it could ever be at your Trek dealer where you paid more for your stock Madone than you would a Bedford, Ellis or Kirk.

Nothing is perfect. But if you do your research and do whatever you can to deal with the guy hooking the pipes together you will stack the odds in your favor in a big way.

dave

[Bob Ross]

In the end, unless you want a bike today, I have a hard time coming up with reasons to buy an off the shelf bike regardless of your fitting needs. Why buy a bike built by a nameless and faceless person that was designed to fit some blend of average size and cost control when one could have a bike, made from most any material you are interested in, designed and built for you, the way you ride and your aesthetic tastes? Why not buy a bike from a craftsman and a person instead of a conglomerate? Why not have a relationship that will last a life time instead of a 30 second deal with an online retailer whom you've never even talked with?


^^^That. /thread

Beautiful, succinct, and nailed.

[BCS]

Frankly, and no offense is meant by this, this is a bit of a silly question isn't it? Does anyone really 'need' a custom bike? Aside from a very few with disabilities I think all of us could pull a bike off the shelf, throw our leg over it and get from point A to B and life would be OK. We all did this as children and did we ever have more fun than we did then? Riding around on a dept. store bike that fit someone a foot taller then we were? Some folks would be more OK than others but we could all ride and most would even have fun.

But would we be as comfortable, as quick, and have as much fun as we would if we had a bike that really suited our bodies and our needs? I think not.

I agree that for many custom is about fit. I know that at it's core custom is about fit for me. I'm tall and like a long top tube and to my knowledge there are no 'off the shelf' bikes that will fit my body. I could be wrong and maybe someone will cite brand X having one but I don't know of it. But even aside from this, IMO, I benefit from having a bike that has had subtle but important tweaks that, when looked at one at a time, look like they would do nothing to change the experience .......... but when looked at in their entirety show a design that will fit, handle, ride, flex and look a way that is suits me best. It was built for me and I have more fun on it as a result.

I know there are downsides to having a bike built for you. There is often a wait and you can't buy it and ride it on the same day. I know it can be a bit scary buying something that you can't test ride. I also know that there are precious few issues with having a bike built for you if you pick a reputable builder whom you trust and then let them do their job. Along with this I know that a good builder stands behind every aspect of his work to make sure that the customer is happy and well served. And I also know that the cost of a handbuilt is now often less, sometimes much less, than a stock bike built for the average Joe using stock numbers and all too often rely on a single fork rake regardless of the size/geometry of the bike.

In the end, unless you want a bike today, I have a hard time coming up with reasons to buy an off the shelf bike regardless of your fitting needs. Why buy a bike built by a nameless and faceless person that was designed to fit some blend of average size and cost control when one could have a bike, made from most any material you are interested in, designed and built for you, the way you ride and your aesthetic tastes? Why not buy a bike from a craftsman and a person instead of a conglomerate? Why not have a relationship that will last a life time instead of a 30 second deal with an online retailer whom you've never even talked with? These are the real questions in my opinion.

Dave
You are definitely going to build my next steel bike. :beer:

[mister]

Nothing is perfect. But if you do your research and do whatever you can to deal with the guy hooking the pipes together you will stack the odds in your favor in a big way.

dave

this.

[benb]

I don't think I ever went into buying my custom bike expecting it to be perfect on the first ride... I was pretty sure it'd be a journey just like my stock bikes were.

It doesn't mean I'm unhappy with it.. it's been pretty good right from the beginning.. just little tweaks over the years have finally taught me exactly what I needed. I had to seek out advice from people other then the guy who fit me but that's OK.

It got me in the ballpark and now I know what I'd need in a future bike. But my frame was built just fine.. it was just little adjustments to my position.

If I didn't know *exactly* what I needed, I'd be in awe of any fitter/builder who could get it right on the very first try...

It's gotta suck when someone in their first year of cycling shows up wanting to be fit for a custom bike... how hard is it to get that right, on any bike, stock or custom, if you don't know if the bike is going to sit in the garage or that person is going to become completely obsessed and ride like crazy?

[fourflys]

In the end, unless you want a bike today, I have a hard time coming up with reasons to buy an off the shelf bike regardless of your fitting needs. Why buy a bike built by a nameless and faceless person that was designed to fit some blend of average size and cost control when one could have a bike, made from most any material you are interested in, designed and built for you, the way you ride and your aesthetic tastes? Why not buy a bike from a craftsman and a person instead of a conglomerate? Why not have a relationship that will last a life time instead of a 30 second deal with an online retailer whom you've never even talked with? These are the real questions in my opinion.

Dave

Dave,
I agree with most of what you say above with one exception...

The reason to buy an off the shelf bike would be purely fiscal... I think a lot of people either can't afford to spend $5k+ on a bike or just don't want to... now, I agree that if you're going to drop $5k on a Madone or Tarmac, then custom would be the way to go...

[Ray]

Just a couple of follow-up points.

Even though I knew my Spectrum RODE right within the first few miles on it, I still had to tweak the position a little at a time until I got it just exactly right. And I still make minor adjustments from time to time. On my second Spectrum, I had a real battle to get the position nailed to where it felt just right, but again, the bike rode great - it just took me a while to find that sweetest of sweet spots on it. That's not the builder's responsibility - its yours/mine.

No, a beginning rider shouldn't buy a custom. You should have ridden long enough to know what kind of a rider you are and how you like a bike to ride/handle and be somewhat able to articulate what you like and dislike about the bikes you've ridden. A good designer can glean a lot from that information.

Yes, price is a very real reason to buy a relatively inexpensive off-the-shelf bike. But when the comparison is between bikes that will all cost pretty much the same thing or when the spec bike actually costs MORE, that's where I have to wonder why....

-Ray

[veloduffer]

No, a beginning rider shouldn't buy a custom. You should have ridden long enough to know what kind of a rider you are and how you like a bike to ride/handle and be somewhat able to articulate what you like and dislike about the bikes you've ridden. A good designer can glean a lot from that information.



+1 I think this is a very important point. For example, this may be more significant for someone who is undergoing weight changes. You shouldn't buy a bike built for a 215lb build if you ultimately plan to get to (and maintain) 175lbs.

Similarly, you wouldn't buy a full custom set of golf clubs for the first time you played golf. You get a custom set once you've got a relatively good swing.

Personally, after riding for many years I have a good idea of my position (like a lot of saddle setback, low bb height), pedaling/riding style, and what qualities that I want the bike to aspire to. I had no idea about any of this in the first few years. And some of these desires/needs have changed as I've aged (injuries, flexibility).

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree, most could buy "off the Rack" at the LBS



It seems like there is a lot of "tweeking" after the delivery, seat position, handle bar position and et al, one person was working on his custom two years after delivery and it is finally right. He is 6'3", but wanted the dream machine. He did the homework and had a good fit at a Dallas LBS, the big one.



If it is not perfect, I believe there could be some "let down"


I think some people can't stop f'ing with things either. When I went custom, I knew my saddle (brooks b-17) handlebars (Nitto Noodle 48) Pedals (C brothers) brifters and was able to have all of them on the size cycle and tested with the actual parts I would be riding with. You start dicking around with this or that, who knows what happens. I also wonder if he had a good fitter or if he listened to his fitter. Some people think they know more than the experts, I try not to be one of them, but I put it all on Smiley and Bedford to do it right...homerun. I am at bat again and I expect they will do their best to knock it out of the park again.

[David Kirk]

Dave,
I agree with most of what you say above with one exception...

The reason to buy an off the shelf bike would be purely fiscal... I think a lot of people either can't afford to spend $5k+ on a bike or just don't want to... now, I agree that if you're going to drop $5k on a Madone or Tarmac, then custom would be the way to go...

I agree completely. And at the same time you can buy a made to measure tig frame from Strong or DeSalvo for pretty darn cheap IMO.

Dave

[mister]

(Nitto Noodle 48)

what the...
is 48 the width..as in 48cm wide.
i didn't even know they made road bars that wide.
mind blown.

[rugbysecondrow]

If you feel so inclined for some reading, here is a link to a similar question from when a lot more builders used to hang out here.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=13481&highlight=custom



William
Not sure how many were builders and how many were imposters, but if that was the golden age of the Serotta forum, I am glad we are in the dark ages...the term asshats comes to mind.

[William]

Not sure how many were builders and how many were imposters, but if that was the golden age of the Serotta forum, I am glad we are in the dark ages...the term asshats comes to mind.

No comment on better or worse. Just a similar question...that may have devolved during the course of discussion. Make of it what you will.



William

[rugbysecondrow]

what the...
is 48 the width..as in 48cm wide.
i didn't even know they made road bars that wide.
mind blown.
Yeah, 48cm. I have broad shoulders and they fit well, I love these bars.

[fourflys]

And at the same time you can buy a made to measure tig frame from Strong or DeSalvo for pretty darn cheap IMO.

Dave

for sure, and they are on the top of my list when I go for a steel bike...

[spiderman]

but i do know
that the bikes i have found from custom builders
that happen to be my size
are a pure joy to ride!
the most fun i've had with a bike
has been building up and getting just right
the llewellyn that dazza originally made for himself
and now i'm having the privilege of riding every day.
the project has evolved since april of this year
when i put the bike together in the first 24 hours.
just this morning
after collecting just the right things for llew--
riding the bike and getting to know it--
i felt like the entire fit
and ride experience
was absolutely perfect...
i like the bike more and more each time i ride it!
--not sure i could be happier with it
if he had built it for me from scratch...

[jlwdm]

Not sure how many were builders and how many were imposters, but if that was the golden age of the Serotta forum, I am glad we are in the dark ages...the term asshats comes to mind.

Hardly any builders in the thread, just a lot of posts from E-richie. Although some posts from some of my favorite people in the bike industry. Did not see any imposters.

Jeff

[firerescuefin]

Not sure how many were builders and how many were imposters, but if that was the golden age of the Serotta forum, I am glad we are in the dark ages...the term asshats comes to mind.


The grass isn't always greener...at least from what I've seen. That type of personality needs its own place...and it has one.

Interesting topic. I think EVERYONE would benefit from a custom built rig. The more miles you ride and/or the more issues you may be dealing with (physical ones) the more I think you will reap. Like DK said...the term NEED does not really fit the question. Once upon a time I worked in the Golf industry (from the age of 15-22) had a 1.2 handicap...and was a PGA apprentice. I taught quite a bit and fit lots of clubs. Same can be said there. I have played with off the shelf and when I was on staff with titleist, I spent an entire afternoon at their fit center and was fit by their tour guy (irons and driver)....it makes a difference for both the low and high handicapper.

I think some of the pushback comes from people that perceive they can't afford custom....like it's class warfare or something. I don't have money burning a hole in my pocket, but I will pick up some extra shifts, go without in some areas, and will be giving DK a call to say...put me on the list. I have a Merlin XL Compact with full Record, Corima Carbon Clinchers, and everything I want on it. I love the bike, but I trully believe that a custom bike will feel and perform better...not necessarily faster.

In the fit section, I mentioned meeting with Dr. Andy Pruitt. I gained 15% efficiency in 2 hours. Don't tell me the details don't matter...and the changes we made were subtle.

[1centaur]

I've bought a fair number of both, and I'll chip in another reason to buy stock: to check out a flavor that's not offered by custom.

When I buy custom it's mostly to get it done MY way, and when I buy stock I am experimenting with THEIR way. I know many buyers and builders view the custom experience as being the latter, but I don't. When I buy custom I want certain geometry and very specific paint that I can't get from stock in either case. When I bought the Z5 I wanted to see how Parlee's attention to detail translated to Asian manufacturing while delivering the lightest bike I own. When I bought the AXM I wanted to see what Eddy thought was good enough in a real monocoque that used Ti mesh under the CF (unique manufacturing style). Every stock bike I buy attracts me with some element that is not offered by custom CF makers. I've never owned a Time but have been interested in their ride reputation and focus on damped vibration via frame materials using their own CF production (just could never love their paint jobs). I'd be happy to try a Dogma for the nanotubes and asymmetrical stuff and ride quality regardless of weight if I saw a paint job I could stand.

I'm the same speed on all and comfortable to boot (though like custom clothes I find my custom frames just a little more perfect), but I get different sensations from all of them.

[rphetteplace]

Yes! It will make you smile and want to ride more!

[Peter P.]

" I think the custom thing gets just a little too much mention. If you are within an average range, there should be several high end frames that come in 2cm increments and ought to be exactly what you need."

Andrew; getting back to your original post summation-

Yeah; I understand and agree with what you're saying, that most of us should be able to fit a stock bike or adjust it to fit us, and it will ride fine. The Treks and Giants of the world want to design bikes to fit the widest array of riders because you make more money when fewer SKUs satisfy a wider customer base. It just makes financial sense.

Customs are more to fulfill WANTS vs. NEEDS. To me, custom is just a different market. It's the builder's job to create advertising that convinces the cyclist the either need or want the builder's frame. Nothing wrong with that.

And if the fact is that the OEM frame doesn't make the rider happy, then they won't enjoy riding. Sometimes all the builder is selling is happiness, and there's nothing wrong with that if both parties walk away from the transaction satisfied.

[firerescuefin]

Peter...I am not sure what you ride, but do you think you would have a better fit...not just geometrically (which people are focusing on way too much), but tailoring things such as different butted tubing for ride characteristics...or terraplane stays for comfort and handling. No one is saying that companies do not make great off the shelf stuff, but could you benefit (some will, by more of a degree) by getting a custom fit bike?

[rugbysecondrow]

Hardly any builders in the thread, just a lot of posts from E-richie. Although some posts from some of my favorite people in the bike industry. Did not see any imposters.

Jeff

Sorry. Hopefully the ones who were being jerks are not on your list of favorites.

[e-RICHIE]

william was right to link the older thread because it covers a lot of territory that is relevant on this one. but one thing that doesn't play well here atmo is this - you have a great forum host here whose very being is tied to making bicycles to order, and you're debating the very merits that his business model is built upon...


I think the custom thing gets just a little too much mention. If you are within an average range, there should be several high end frames that come in 2cm increments and ought to be exactly what you need.

from where i sit, custom is a word that has no real meaning. just because an order precedes a build doesn't make the end result custom. more than anything, it infers that the client has commissioned a maker who is not geared up to make a lot of bicycle frames. the ones he does make fit a vision that he has much more so than the perceived vision(s) of the client. i'd wager that most professional makers veer very little from their "way", and make few, if any, concessions to design that would adversely affect how they (the makers) feel a bicycle should work. it's more a "my frame, your fit" type of thing. that's not very custom at all atmo. to that end, andy is right. there are plenty of well known and prodigious producers of nicely finished bicycles so that the need for having an independent cat make you some frankenbike stew of design and fit parameters that would spell disaster as far as handling goes - the need to see this guy with your napkin drawing hardly exists.

most of the professional framebuilders i know make the frame they believe best represents what they want to do while at the bench. few, if any, want to make bicycle that compromises their very tenets of ride and performance just to get someone with severe fit and physiological limitations atop it. some folks will make anything for anybody, but most custom framebuilders with a modicum of experience do not atmo. they make what they believe works best, and they find a way to get you to fit it should you be in the queue for one. just because you have to wait a month or a year doesn't make it custom. maybe it's just a commissioned piece, or some other similar word. all things to think about the next time you have dinner reservations and assume to tell the chef what to make and how to make it. that's an analogy that works for me, and i believe it's relevant to the trade that ben, dave, peter, curt, tom, me, and so many others are in.

happy new year.

[AndrewS]

I keep seeing people treat this topic as Cervelo type mass production vs. a custom only like Sachs. And that's an easy way to make a point: By posing the two as great opposites it is easier to make the point. So let's talk about it this way:

I want a new ti bike (I only have four). I'm used to 51cm frames with 52 to 53 top tubes. I decide to get a Lynskey R340 Custom fit:
R340 pricing. (http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/pages/frames-_-products/road/titanium-road-bikes---houseblend-r340.php)
So I pay the extra $1000 for custom geometry and fit, going from $2500 for the base R340 to $3500 for the custom.

I don't have any aches, my stock 51s fit me okay and I don't have any needs besides a good all-around racing/training/club frame. I weigh 145 pounds, so neither heavy nor light.

Lynskey does the work, interviewing and measuring me. They've got some options when it comes to tubing diameters, but I believe Ti tubing comes in pretty obvious increments and is a homogenous material, so there is only so much adjustment that can be done with tube choices.

In the end I'll have a frame that was built for me, but will it perform, ride or feel any different than a size Small stock R340 once a fitter (or I) have gotten the stem size, seat position, etc right? Or did Lynskey already design a bike that fits medium weight people of my body size?

I'd argue that a frame "custom built" for a normal sized guy with will likely come out almost indistinguishable from the stock version once correctly fit. What am I not seeing in this scenario? What did I get for the extra $1000?


Some builders don't have stock sizes, like Seven, but it seems to me that the difference is that $1000 or more custom fee is already in the price, rather than an option.

[tch]

.... gets it. :)

And "commissioned" sounds so...I don't know...tasteful. Makes me feel a bit like a "Patron". Perfect.
Nice to have you drop by again.

[mister]

When I buy custom it's mostly to get it done MY way

whats so special about that?
and what do you mean your way? are you talking about design...like front center and all that good stuff?

if so then you're not really getting a certain builders frame, you're getting you're design built by someone else...
wrong way to do it my opinion.
tell the builder what you need the bike to do. give them the info they ask for and let them do their thing.

[dmurphey]

Don't be daft. Custom bicycle frames are a way of satisfying my need for technical futzing around, AND it is my own economic stimulus plan for the american economy.

[Charles M]

Bad options...



Custom is about fit... AND



Custom is about handling...

Custom is about ride charactar...

Custom is about Flex...

Custom can be about weight...



Can you find a stock bike in precisely your size WITHOUT sacrificing with too many headset spacers, too long or short a stem, the right setback on the post so that you clamp near the center of your saddle rails... These parts sacrifices / exceptions also effect performance.

Will it also be in exactly the geometry you want... (just because your hands feet and ass are in the right spot doesnt mean you got there with the right front center, wheel base and rake and trail)

And if all of the above if right, is the tube set too stiff or too flexy or exactly what you need to both perform and feel the way you want.




A PERFECT FIT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A PERFECT BIKE.


a more reasonable question is, do both the customer, builder and shop really know enough about what they like and dont like about bikes in order to get the full potential from custom...


I still agree with myself.

[AndrewS]

Peztech,

If you find stock frame that is designed to have the blend of ride and flex you like, and it comes in a size that is close enough to fit with the usual stems, posts and spacers, how is it going to ride any different than the theoretical custom you're talking about?

Top tubes generally average 15mm between frame sizes. Normal stems are 90 to 130mm. How terribly hard could it be to get the right reach?

Who's making stock road bikes with bad front center, rake and trail? There simply isn't that much inventiveness when it comes to road geometry. How do you end up with the "wrong" front center for you, but no one else?


A custom builder can only customize ride characteristics within the increments of the material choices they have available. If there are two top tube stiffnesses, that's the choice. Just because it's custom, that doesn't mean there is infinite variability within a given design.

[rw229]

Andrew,

2am ramble...

Normal riders? Define a normal rider. The guy who rides around the neighborhood or races or rides five centuries a year? The guy who's body dimensions fall within the average? What is the average? I've read that the "average" American male is 5' 10". I'm 6' 2" with a slightly shorter inseam and longer torso than many my size, do I need a custom frame?

There are cyclists who need a custom frame due to their dimensions and/or physical limitations to comfortably enjoy our sport.

Then there are riders like myself who don't necessarily need a custom bike but appreciate the craftsmanship and options provided by many of the custom builders.

Each individual has their own reason for either needing or wanting a custom bike so I don't think it's as cut and dry as the two options offered in your poll.

[AndrewS]

RW,

I think I answered your questions several times over in this thread, but I'll state it in another way:

"Average" means body dimensions and weight/power that fall within an expected range for the various frame sizes. I'm 5'4", 145 lbs. with a 5'7" wingspan and a 30" inseam. A stock bike with around a 52cm top tube is easy to fit to me and is both comfortable and stiff enough, even if I were to gain or lose 20 lbs.

Craftmanship: As I've tried to show by example several times, the craftsmanship may be exactly the same between stock and custom since many frame makers offer their wares BOTH ways. The quality doesn't go up or down just because it is made for you, just the dimensions, tube choices and features (may) change. See my last post for an example.


The falacies that keep popping up in this thread is that custom immediately implies a nicer product (it doesn't), and that the greatest majority of people can't be well fitted to a the range of stock sizes normally produced (they can).

There is no doubt that there are people with dimensions or needs that fall outside the range of "stock", and those people are BEST served by customization. The question is really: What about the other 70, 80, 90%? Do we get what we deserve when we pony up extra money and time to depart from the well designed balance of tubes and geometries that a builder has already programmed for each size in a given range?

Tom Kellogg designed the ride on my 51cm Merlin Extralight. I love the way this stock bike fits and rides. Aside from aesthetics, is a custom Spectrum, designed by the same guy and executed by the same builders, going to ride or fit me any different? I don't think so, because I think TK did a great job when he spec'd my 51cm Merlin in the first place.

I don't think I can state this dicotomy any clearer.

[Peter P.]

Peter...I am not sure what you ride, but do you think you would have a better fit...not just geometrically (which people are focusing on way too much), but tailoring things such as different butted tubing for ride characteristics...or terraplane stays for comfort and handling. No one is saying that companies do not make great off the shelf stuff, but could you benefit (some will, by more of a degree) by getting a custom fit bike?

Thanks for asking.

I have two road bikes. One has a 54.5cm top tube (custom), my "less loved" one has a 53.3cm top tube (stock). Both have 11cm stems. Even though they're different numerically and I've made no attempt to set them up identically, after 5 minutes on either the feeling of a difference between the two goes away. I adapt, and I think many of us could adapt to less than ideal dimensions i.e., an off the shelf frame, and not know the difference.

I certainly agree that having a bike with tubing etc., tailored to my needs/desires would make a frame MUCH more enjoyable and worth the extra money a custom frame entails. That less loved frame- I'm not crazy about the steering, and would like to change it. It's not a fit issue, but it is a ride characteristic. If I could change the steering (which I COULD if I worked with a builder on a custom frame), then the bike would put a smile on my face during every ride, like my custom does. There's definite value in a custom frame, but it's wasted on someone who doesn't recognize the difference between stock and custom or has no idea what they're trying to achieve by purchasing a custom frame.

Of course, this sounds like it goes against my earlier post. If all the customer wants is custom for some superficial reason like status and cares nothing about fit, ride, or geometry, then they still have received their money's worth if they're satisfied in the end. I mean, if all they want is the frame painted the colors of their college football team and that makes them ecstatic, then why not?

And get this: I just took delivery of a custom ATB frame this past year. The geometry is nothing you wouldn't see on a stock bike, but the tubing IS unique, and selected by the builder for my riding style and weight. It may be a placebo effect, but think I can feel a positive difference in the way the bike rides over rough stuff. It brings a smile to my face even though often times I forget I'm riding a custom frame.

So yeah; while I don't think custom is necessary for most of us, beyond fitting properly there are still plenty of valid reasons to buy a custom frame. What happens is, beyond fit, things like ride characteristics and handling are much more subtle and therefore maybe only perceptible to "connoisseurs" of custom frames, much like many of us can't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi and don't care what we grab in the store, as long as it's a cola.

If you CAN tell these subtle differences in ride characteristics, then you'll get much more enjoyment out of a custom frame.

[1centaur]

whats so special about that?
and what do you mean your way? are you talking about design...like front center and all that good stuff?

if so then you're not really getting a certain builders frame, you're getting you're design built by someone else...
wrong way to do it my opinion.
tell the builder what you need the bike to do. give them the info they ask for and let them do their thing.

I read that all the time on forums, and I just don't agree with it, for me. I am not trying to fix a problem, I am trying to have a certain ride experience that differs from what I already have in stock bikes. I have owned various stock bikes and read the geometry charts for many more and agree with AndrewS that there's not much variation (including in front center) at my size, but I want certain choices within the variation to be specific so I can understand what they mean. If I told a custom builder I ride 4500 miles a year on rolling hills and I want stiff and light with good chain line and not quick steering and here are my fit points I could get a variety of geometries that fit the taste of the builder, but would they fit mine? For example the HTA could range from 73.5 to 72.2 and the STA could range from 74 to 72.5. Well, I already know what my mind and body like in that range, so instead of saying "whatever" to a builder, I say 72.5/72.5 (unavailable in stock frames in my size), we discuss and agree on drop, I know what TT length is in the middle of my preferred range (I own from 56 to 57.5), I know I what I like in CS length, I know what HT gets me the STB I need, I put that in front of a quality builder and see if anything feels wrong. I rely on the builder for that judgment, and for the tube selection since I have no clue, and for the technique of construction. There's a lot of the builder in every custom I have, but there's a lot of me in there too. I like my custom geos better than any stock bikes I own - they put a big smile on my face. Would that be true if I left it up to the builder? Unknown. I like controlling that variable. If I had pounded away on the reasons I liked those sorts of angles upfront a builder might well have gotten there anyway, so I saved time.

For people with real issues that need to be solved or without the experience database to work from, trusting the builder for all decisions makes much more sense. Finding a builder whose ego is not tied up in 100% control, who's good enough to raise a hand if the preferences you state are a problem, is part of the pleasure and a source of respect for the people I have done customs with.

[djg]

william was right to link the older thread because it covers a lot of territory that is relevant on this one. but one thing that doesn't play well here atmo is this - you have a great forum host here whose very being is tied to making bicycles to order, and you're debating the very merits that his business model is built upon...



from where i sit, custom is a word that has no real meaning. just because an order precedes a build doesn't make the end result custom. more than anything, it infers that the client has commissioned a maker who is not geared up to make a lot of bicycle frames. the ones he does make fit a vision that he has much more so than the perceived vision(s) of the client. i'd wager that most professional makers veer very little from their "way", and make few, if any, concessions to design that would adversely affect how they (the makers) feel a bicycle should work. it's more a "my frame, your fit" type of thing. that's not very custom at all atmo. to that end, andy is right. there are plenty of well known and prodigious producers of nicely finished bicycles so that the need for having an independent cat make you some frankenbike stew of design and fit parameters that would spell disaster as far as handling goes - the need to see this guy with your napkin drawing hardly exists.

most of the professional framebuilders i know make the frame they believe best represents what they want to do while at the bench. few, if any, want to make bicycle that compromises their very tenets of ride and performance just to get someone with severe fit and physiological limitations atop it. some folks will make anything for anybody, but most custom framebuilders with a modicum of experience do not atmo. they make what they believe works best, and they find a way to get you to fit it should you be in the queue for one. just because you have to wait a month or a year doesn't make it custom. maybe it's just a commissioned piece, or some other similar word. all things to think about the next time you have dinner reservations and assume to tell the chef what to make and how to make it. that's an analogy that works for me, and i believe it's relevant to the trade that ben, dave, peter, curt, tom, me, and so many others are in.

happy new year.

Darn it Richard, if I want to spend my hard earned money at Citronelle, what's wrong with me telling Michel Richard that I want my foie gras chicken friend, drenched in nacho cheese sauce, with sliced jalapenos on the side?

Ok, now I'm a little queasy.

L'shanah tovah.

And to Ben, who provides the board, happy new year and I'll be racing one of your non-custom cross rigs next week. Poorly, but I'll be out there.

[Ray]

There is no doubt that there are people with dimensions or needs that fall outside the range of "stock", and those people are BEST served by customization. The question is really: What about the other 70, 80, 90%? Do we get what we deserve when we pony up extra money and time to depart from the well designed balance of tubes and geometries that a builder has already programmed for each size in a given range?

Tom Kellogg designed the ride on my 51cm Merlin Extralight. I love the way this stock bike fits and rides. Aside from aesthetics, is a custom Spectrum, designed by the same guy and executed by the same builders, going to ride or fit me any different? I don't think so, because I think TK did a great job when he spec'd my 51cm Merlin in the first place.
Within a year or two after I got my Spectrum custom, Merlin came out with a model that, in the closest size to what I ride, had nearly identical geometry to mine. If I'd known that geometry before I got the Spectrum I possibly could have bought one of those and been equally happy. OTOH, it was no less expensive than the custom and all of my preconceived notions about what geometry worked best for me had to be revised after Tom designed that custom, so I probably wouldn't have bought that Merlin.

Part of it isn't body dimensions, which are not particularly unusual on me. Part of it is how you ride. I've never been a racer or pseudo racer or particularly fast, despite the many miles I used to ride and the reasonably many miles I still ride. I have much more of a tourist than racer mentality, but I still like an efficient and responsive feeling bike, so I wasn't looking for a touring bike. Because I'm not putting as much power into the pedals (thereby taking up a lot of weight with my legs) as your typical stage racer, I like my saddle back further to support the greater percentage of weight I have on my ass and to keep that weight off of my hands and shoulders. I've learned over the years where I'm most comfortable and efficient with my saddle placement and where I need the bars for the greatest comfort. On a typical stage race bike, my position puts too much weigh on the rear wheel and not enough on the front and they just don't handle well. I'd tried various sport touring bikes that are geometrically a bit better for the likes of me, but never found the sweet spot on one - although the closest I came was an early Rivendell that was geometrically very much like an RB-1 with slightly longer stays. But the back end of that bike was a bit TOO stable for my liking and the front end was a bit squirrely for my taste. Tom's custom design had the perfect combination of a mid-length chainstay (longer than most race bikes, shorter than even that early Riv, which was already shorter than current Rivs by quite a bit) and a combination of fore-aft balance and front end geometry that allows the bike to handle in a way I never knew was even possible before. Instantly responsive but still dead stable when I want it to be. For a guy who rides like I do with my position, I'd never found anything that came close. Essentially a bike that handles like a stage race bike for a guy who doesn't sit on it or power it like a stage racer would.

So it was waaaay worth it to me. Even though I'm a relatively average build, no super long or short extremities or particularly light or heavy for my size. I had never ridden a Merlin and perhaps I'd have lucked into just the right stock frame if I had. But it would have been luck because I don't have the same eye for this stuff that Tom does. By going to him and spending about the same amount (so the only "price" was a wait of a couple of months), I didn't have to try to make those judgements for myself. And it came out very right.

-Ray

[Lifelover]

william was right to link the older thread because it covers a lot of territory that is relevant on this one. but one thing that doesn't play well here atmo is this - you have a great forum host here whose very being is tied to making bicycles to order, and you're debating the very merits that his business model is built upon...

.....

I think I love you again!

For the most part the OP is a rehash of the old "how can you justify that luxury item" thread. In this case it just how can you justify luxury item A over luxury item B.

Most times you can't and you should never have to.

With any product line as large as bikes, the items are the very bottom of the price structure are generally crap. The next level up would represent the true "value" and from there the law of diminishing returns kicks in with a vengeance.

Thus, Walmart bikes ($150 and lower) are crap and really not effective tools. Low end LBS bikes assembled by people that know what they are doing represent the true value ($300-$1000). Beyond $1000 you are getting very little measurable benefit for your money.

This is true for golf clubs, fishing poles, watches, clothes, guns, and damn near everything else that is not a very limited supply item.

However, this by no means suggest that they don't have their place in the market. If we were a society (or species) that lived based on "need" we would all be living in mud huts, eating anything we can find, dancing and screwing the night away.

[Ray]

If we were a society (or species) that lived based on "need" we would all be living in mud huts, eating anything we can find, dancing and screwing the night away.
Except for the mud huts part, how are we different than that? :cool:

And this was never a thread about cheap vs expensive bikes. It was about stock vs custom bikes, presumably all somewhere between fairly and very expensive.

-Ray

[rustychain]

Custom for me provides that 5% better handling and comfort. In other words optimal performance for me. Not something most folks will ever notice. That said most folks if they do enough leg work can find a stock frame that will fit geometry wise, handling wise, be tuned to their weight range, has the features you want and the color/ style that floats your boat. Most folks buy a bike because it looks cool or has a romantic heritage. They will most likely be just as happy dispite never knowing of what is available. Is custom worth it? For the average rider IMO no. Will I ever buy a stock frame again? I hope not. Some folks (like me) just get overly spastic about details. Perhaps I should spend my money on therapy instead of bikes ;)

[Pete Serotta]

Spoken well, from a much respected, (by me and many others), builder and gentleman.

THanks and I look forward to seeing you in AUSTIN and having some brew with you..

PETE

[1centaur]

As I was riding my custom today, I was thinking about e-RICHIE's post. Seems to me that the chef analogy is more fitting to a stock bike, and in that Richie's comments about custom not being really custom (in his case) are correct. You go to a great restaurant and you get what the chef wants to give you - that's the deal. That's stock, like going to a Colnago dealer and getting what Ernesto wants to give you. Perhaps the chef analogy as it applies to custom would be that he takes into account dietary restrictions but otherwise gives you what he thinks tastes good/reflects his philosophy. In bike terms, that's stock with tweaks. A custom Colnago is possible, but it's a stock Colnago with adjusted fit points and/or paint. I don't know what variations e-Richie permits, but as he describes his approach this is what I perceive.

Carrying on the chef analogy, I view the custom experience I want as best delivered via the personal chef (does anyone need a personal chef when there's so much great take-out available?), not the restaurant chef. A personal chef brings a lot of talent and experience to bear but expects to pay more attention to what the client wants than does a restaurant chef. There's room in the world for both, but it works best if neither party confuses the two.

[rugbysecondrow]

I disagree with all the statements about being disrespectful to Ben or anybody else by having this discussion. Serotta will be coming out with a brand new line of ready custom bikes...that are stock. If most riders can fit into a range and pick one of those, why go custom? I know the answer for ME, you all may disagree with other peoples opinions, but that does not make it an illegitimate question.

Also, if somebody has a year waitlist, or dining reservations that extend out months into the future, then they can so no or tell the customer what they will and will not build. No problems there, but there are other who will build what you want, a custom bike for me...nothing wrong with that either.

I think I love you again!

For the most part the OP is a rehash of the old "how can you justify that luxury item" thread. In this case it just how can you justify luxury item A over luxury item B.

Most times you can't and you should never have to.

With any product line as large as bikes, the items are the very bottom of the price structure are generally crap. The next level up would represent the true "value" and from there the law of diminishing returns kicks in with a vengeance.

Thus, Walmart bikes ($150 and lower) are crap and really not effective tools. Low end LBS bikes assembled by people that know what they are doing represent the true value ($300-$1000). Beyond $1000 you are getting very little measurable benefit for your money.

This is true for golf clubs, fishing poles, watches, clothes, guns, and damn near everything else that is not a very limited supply item.

However, this by no means suggest that they don't have their place in the market. If we were a society (or species) that lived based on "need" we would all be living in mud huts, eating anything we can find, dancing and screwing the night away.

[Dekonick]

Yeah, 48cm. I have broad shoulders and they fit well, I love these bars.

Yeah - Paul is built. Talk about a great draft...

[Charles M]

Peztech,

If you find stock frame that is designed to have the blend of ride and flex you like, and it comes in a size that is close enough to fit with the usual stems, posts and spacers, how is it going to ride any different than the theoretical custom you're talking about?
......

......

......


I believe it safe to say that I have been on what most people would consider a realtively high number of fairly well made bicycles.

With that in mind and again assuming that I have reasonable feel for bikes, I think your question is unrealistic starting at "If".



But... If for some reason, Serotta or Parlee or Colnago or any of the several other builders of very good custom that also build stock were to take all of my geometry requirements...

And then also spec the tube set and fork to my taste...

And decide to use that as the basis for their stock bikes going forward...


Yes, The the ride qualities of stock would match custom. But then even that unrealistic scenario falls apart when you consider my desires have lead to gradual changes in geometry over the past 10 years...





Past that, the best bikes I have been on have all been custom.

Do some things come close? Sure. Colnago got pretty near what I like with the C50... Look came close with the 585 ult.


But the C50 is not the Parlee Z1sl or Meivici despite a few design and material similarities... As Palree go, their stock bike is fantastic, but it's not a Z1sl and it was pointed pretty closly at the same goals from the same company.


My favorite Litespeed was the Palmares... But it's not as nice as the custom Lynskey I had despite the same family running both places when I got the bikes AND discovering the same fabricator might have worked on both bikes...


The list and examples can roll on for a while but the arguement (regardless of how tricked out the questions are) just doesnt hold water.



Could I luck out and find a stock bike that was perfect? Sure.

But I would lay odds that I have more time on more nice bikes than all but maybe 1-2 people here and it hasnt happend yet.

Yet I could order close to perfect and have it here in a couple weeks from several sources.

[Lionel]

Some people feel that they have their preferred geometry figured out. I am curious to hear from these people on how different 2 bikes with the exact same geometry felt?

I have 3 customs myself and a couple of stock bikes and my contact points are well figured out. My bikes have different geometries with the same contact points and they handle quite differently. In fact I prefer the handling of the Sachs and the handling of the C50 but I am not sure why.

[1centaur]

Two examples:

I have a Moots Vamoots and a Parlee Z1X with identical geometry. Beyond one riding like metal and one like carbon, the Parlee is stiffer/more efficient feeling, I like the compliance better, and it's obviously lighter. So geometry is just one part of the mix. They handle the same.

I have two Crumpton SLs with identical geometry but from different generations of development of that model. The first is my favorite bike, the perfect blend of everything - stiff, light, comfortable, right blend of feedback and comfort. The second is the same built weight but has somewhat different feel - more road feedback, more rugged feeling perhaps (the raw frame's a little heavier), less gossamer, more purposeful - a different set of engineering priorities.

All four have the same contact points but the Crumptons handle differently from the Moots or the Parlee due to HT and ST angles (the stays and drops and TT lengths are the same across all four).

[AndrewS]

Peztech,

Your post suggests that all of your custom bikes, made by all different makers, all have some qualities in common that are uncommon in stock frames.

What are those qualities, and how did you get a number of different builders to produce those qualities in common?

[Lionel]

All four have the same contact points but the Crumptons handle differently from the Moots or the Parlee due to HT and ST angles (the stays and drops and TT lengths are the same across all four).
I guess you are saying that the only difference between the Parlee/Moots and the Crumpton(s) are the front geometry (and maybe the BB drop?). If you care to comment on the differences between the two and how you feel the change in handling I'd be interested to hear about that.

[parris]

PezTech:

I think you nailed the differences that a good custom frame builder is able to provide compared to a stock bike. Many of us don't "need" the bikes we own but it's an activity we enjoy for various reasons. As several builders have stated at times all bicycles are a compromise in some element. The thing as I see it is that those same top tier builders are willing and able to build a frame that will maximize the enjoyment of the person who commissions the frame.

As I understand things good frame builders to a person do their best to communicate with the client in order to build what the client wants. These guys all put their rep on the line every time they take on a job and light the torch, fire up the tig machine, glue up the carbon. None of them wants any of us to be unhappy with our choices.

I believe that's why a custom frame is "better" than a stock frame. There are still compromises but the compromises are ones we as clients help to determine.

[bobswire]

I believe it safe to say that I have been on what most people would consider a realtively high number of fairly well made bicycles.

With that in mind and again assuming that I have reasonable feel for bikes, I think your question is unrealistic starting at "If".



But... If for some reason, Serotta or Parlee or Colnago or any of the several other builders of very good custom that also build stock were to take all of my geometry requirements...

And then also spec the tube set and fork to my taste...

And decide to use that as the basis for their stock bikes going forward...


Yes, The the ride qualities of stock would match custom. But then even that unrealistic scenario falls apart when you consider my desires have lead to gradual changes in geometry over the past 10 years...





Past that, the best bikes I have been on have all been custom.

Do some things come close? Sure. Colnago got pretty near what I like with the C50... Look came close with the 585 ult.


But the C50 is not the Parlee Z1sl or Meivici despite a few design and material similarities... As Palree go, their stock bike is fantastic, but it's not a Z1sl and it was pointed pretty closly at the same goals from the same company.


My favorite Litespeed was the Palmares... But it's not as nice as the custom Lynskey I had despite the same family running both places when I got the bikes AND discovering the same fabricator might have worked on both bikes...


The list and examples can roll on for a while but the arguement (regardless of how tricked out the questions are) just doesnt hold water.



Could I luck out and find a stock bike that was perfect? Sure.

But I would lay odds that I have more time on more nice bikes than all but maybe 1-2 people here and it hasnt happend yet.

Yet I could order close to perfect and have it here in a couple weeks from several sources.

I'm 65 and still searching for the "perfect" ride after riding a good hundred bikes in my lifetime. Right now I'm riding two road frames I've purchased from members of this forum, a Seven Axiom and Serotta CDA that was custom built to match the geo a C-50 ( a fine ride indeed).
These bikes were not custom built for me but they could have been what I would have ordered if they were.
The Axiom for whatever reason is my first choice out the door on any given day. It is one of those that once I throw my leg over the saddle it wants to get up and go and go and go.
It was an standard fit Seven but as fine a Ti bike as I've ever rode ( litespeed, Lemond,Merlin to name a few).
Given the number of "custom" frames being offered by members here and
elsewhere it is pretty obvious whether they be custom or off the shelf the
search for that perfect frame is a never ending journey.

Pez , you claim you can order that close to perfect bike but you obviously really haven't found "it" otherwise you'd be satisfied with what you have with no further need to ever get another frame.
I'm sure the sun will never set on that day.
I think it is more a feeling of the soul and mind than it's that perfect fit for the body.

[jlwdm]

You seem way off base on Pez. It is his business to ride and own a lot of bikes. That is what makes him a good reviewer.

Jeff

[I Want Sachs?]

I understand the question from OP. I think everyone gets defensive when the word custom gets mentioned, because everyone has different investment into a custom in the past/present/future.

The different builders and corporation gets mentioned to make an example. I see it more plainly like below.

Desalvo makes a great TIG bike, so for $175 extra, is the rider going to get something out of his full custom than semi-custom?
http://www.desalvocycles.com/?p=steel_road

Sycip builds beautiful bikes, so for $255 extra, is the rider going to get something out of his custom bike versus production bike?
http://www.sycip.com/prices.html

[bobswire]

You seem way off base on Pez. It is his business to ride and own a lot of bikes. That is what makes him a good reviewer.

Jeff

I'm not questioning his sincerity and knowledge I'm talking about man's quest to always looking for something better besides no one but "me" knows what works best for me.

Go look at the classifieds and see the number of "custom" made bikes for sale at half or a third of their retail.
They'll talk about the wonderful ride and attributes of the frame they're selling yet less than 2 years later they selling it because they have another on order.
It's human nature and thanks to them I'm able to ride a top quality frame I'd otherwise never be able to afford.
All I'm saying is there is never that "perfect" frame.
I know my perfect size but will always endeavor to finding the perfect frame,I'm close and satisfied for the time being but like a Vampire I'm sure I'll be overtaken by lust once again.....

[jlwdm]

I don't understand your response I was responding to your comment which I think is way off base:

Pez , you claim you can order that close to perfect bike but you obviously really haven't found "it" otherwise you'd be satisfied with what you have with no further need to ever get another frame."

Jeff

[bobswire]

I don't understand your response I was responding to your comment which I think is way off base:

Pez , you claim you can order that close to perfect bike but you obviously really haven't found "it" otherwise you'd be satisfied with what you have with no further need to ever get another frame."

Jeff

That was tongue and cheek and fit with my suggestion that we are never satisfied with what we have. It was not a insult it is an observation of men in general.
Anyway I'm sure Pez can reply to my posts if he feels I somehow questioned his expertise as you seem to suggest (which I haven't). :no:

[1centaur]

I guess you are saying that the only difference between the Parlee/Moots and the Crumpton(s) are the front geometry (and maybe the BB drop?). If you care to comment on the differences between the two and how you feel the change in handling I'd be interested to hear about that.

Parlee/Moots 73/73; Crumptons 72.5/72.5 - all 16 HT height with CK headsets. Putting the ST back just gives me slightly better muscle recruitment (I learned this from a stock bike) and changes my position/weight slightly I suppose. The slacker HT angle slows the steering down so going down curving hills takes little thought and hands-free is much easier. My first Crumpton had a 72.2 HT angle to match the Colnago geo at the time and I love that too. For my money, the HT angle (given the fork rake) is the most important tweak I like to make in a custom, though BB drop and longer stays come not far behind, and HT length can be a deal killer in a stock bike. I looked at a stock bike online today as I was wondering if I'd like it. 73.5 square with an 18.6 HT in my TT length, plus 40ish chainstays. There's no way I would love that bike. Time bikes have short CS lengths too, which begs the chainline question, but they have a great rep for comfort so they remain on the maybe list.

[jlwdm]

bobswire:

Whatever.

Jeff

[Charles M]

Peztech,

Your post suggests that all of your custom bikes, made by all different makers, all have some qualities in common that are uncommon in stock frames.

What are those qualities, and how did you get a number of different builders to produce those qualities in common?

Fair question.

And I'll respond in general because the ride qualities are incidental.


Good builders know what fork to pair and what tube set to use/buy (and or to build up from scratch in some cases like Serotta who own their own tube making) in order to meet handling / flex / smoothness / stiffness character that goes beyond simple geometry.

Some builders talk the talk but lack the ability to produce, and some customers also talk the talk but simply don't have the experience or ability to judge what they want based on what they've had... And that's why we shouldn't be implying that all custom is the same and that it's all better than stock...

For most customers and builders it's a combination of reveres engineering their past bikes using their personal wish list.


Hate to repeat but there's more to this than geometry (1Centaur gave a GREAT ANSWER).







Pez , you claim you can order that close to perfect bike but you obviously really haven't found "it" otherwise you'd be satisfied with what you have with no further need to ever get another frame...



I'm not questioning his sincerity and knowledge I'm talking about man's quest to always looking for something better besides no one but "me" knows what works best for me.

Go look at the classifieds and see the number of "custom" made bikes for sale at half or a third of their retail.
They'll talk about the wonderful ride and attributes of the frame they're selling yet less than 2 years later they selling it because they have another on order.
It's human nature and thanks to them I'm able to ride a top quality frame I'd otherwise never be able to afford.
All I'm saying is there is never that "perfect" frame.
I know my perfect size but will always endeavor to finding the perfect frame, I'm close and satisfied for the time being but like a Vampire I'm sure I'll be overtaken by lust once again.....



I've not said or meant to imply some of what you're writing, but understand how you could be mistaken in your interpretation...



To be clear; what's best today might not be what's best tomorrow. And what's best for me isn't the best for someone else...

Products change and so do desires (even for the same person) and I'm just thankful to be lucky enough to have a pretty solid product flow that I otherwise wouldn't have if not for some of the work I do.

Pretty much any gear conversation has to be considered applicable to "right now"... Tomorrow is something else and if you're passionate (or obsessed) enough, you wont be satisfied with what you have for today, much less tomorrow.



and thank you jlwdm :beer:

[AndrewS]

Peztech,

I was rather hoping that at least one of the posts about customs would NOT be general. That seems to be the ONLY posts made about custom frames.

My question was intended to elicit concrete examples of the qualities you managed to tease out of builders, how you think they did it, and what you said or showed them to get consistant results.


Otherwise, your post is identical to all the rest of the "it's just better" descriptions, that are as useful as the descriptions of builders who "just get it".

I don't "get it", but maybe if one person could actually describe "it", I could.

[rugbysecondrow]

"It" is hopping on a bike and knowing with the first turn of the crank that it is YOUR bike. Your size, your style, your ride charectoristics, your paint, your gear, your build specs, your braze ons, your bars, your wheels, your everything...it is YOUR bike. No stock bike fits that bill nor should it be expected to. There is no other bike like it and it rides like no other for you. Sure, others could straddle it and take off, but it would never do as well for them as it does for you. That is what "it" is to me.

It is defined differently by others though, which is why "it" is an appropriatly vague word to use.

Peztech,

I was rather hoping that at least one of the posts about customs would NOT be general. That seems to be the ONLY posts made about custom frames.

My question was intended to give an example of the qualities you managed to tease out of builders, how you think they did it, and what you said or showed them to get consistant results.


Otherwise, your post is identical to all the rest of the "it's just better" descriptions, that are as useful as the descriptions of builders who "just get it".

I don't "get it", but maybe if one person could actually describe "it", I could.

[AndrewS]

Actually, it sounded like Peztech had something more specific in mind.

Your "it" sounds like pride of ownership, which is nice, too.

[rugbysecondrow]

Actually, it sounded like Peztech had something more specific in mind.

Your "it" sounds like pride of ownership, which is nice, too.

Dude, you are choosing not to read than, "it" has nothing to do with pride of ownership. People have been discussing the "it" and have cited examples, unless you want specifics about a frame that had X tube, Y diameter, Z length, A drop, B angles...not sure what you want or mean by "Concrete" examples.

It seems what you are having is not a conversation nor a discussion, but rather mini-monologues. Folks will converse with you, there is nothing to hide here, but you have to at least show a minimal amount of diligence by actually reading peoples posts and discussing something, not just talking and talking and talking.

[Charles M]

:beer:

[AndrewS]

Dude, you are choosing not to read than, "it" has nothing to do with pride of ownership. People have been discussing the "it" and have cited examples, unless you want specifics about a frame that had X tube, Y diameter, Z length, A drop, B angles...not sure what you want or mean by "Concrete" examples.

It seems what you are having is not a conversation nor a discussion, but rather mini-monologues. Folks will converse with you, there is nothing to hide here, but you have to at least show a minimal amount of diligence by actually reading peoples posts and discussing something, not just talking and talking and talking.
Fair enough. I just re-read the entire thread. Here are some of the most descriptive passages I could find. Pick or add one that really nails it:
"Custom for me provides that 5% better handling and comfort. In other words optimal performance for me. Not something most folks will ever notice."
"I like my custom geos better than any stock bikes I own - they put a big smile on my face. Would that be true if I left it up to the builder? Unknown. I like controlling that variable."
"It may be a placebo effect, but think I can feel a positive difference in the way the bike rides over rough stuff."
"a meal made by a chef, made by hand, with ingredients he/she chose"
"they are building it for YOU (regardless of fit issues), and that is a special feeling."
"The Spectrum was seemingly without compromise"
"Why not have a relationship that will last a life time instead of a 30 second deal with an online retailer whom you've never even talked with?"
" It will make you smile and want to ride more!"
" i'd wager that most professional makers veer very little from their "way", and make few, if any, concessions to design that would adversely affect how they (the makers) feel a bicycle should work."

At this point, I would like someone to say something like "changing the head tube angle by .5 and using longer but stiffer stays made the frame descend better than any other I'd ridden, but it climbs with the best of them" rather than "Coke is it!"


I'm sorry, but "first turn of the crank" reads more like Romantic poetry than a description of how a machine works for you in comparison to another one. I'm not out to prove anything, I'd just like ONE person to say something even vaguely technical on the subject. Frankly, making insubstantive statements and then lamenting my failure to 'get it' is just as annoying as my attempts to elicit a single description that doesn't really entirely on poetic allusions, rhetoric and metaphor.

[BengeBoy]

At this point, I would like someone to say something like "changing the head tube angle by .5 and using longer but stiffer stays made the frame descend better than any other I'd ridden, but it climbs with the best of them" rather than "Coke is it!"

I wanted:

- relaxed geometry bike for long rides in the mountains
- a frame that would not rust even after many years of riding in the rain
- clearance for 28c tires and fenders
- *not* a touring frame
- total bike weight under 20 pounds

Couldn't find it in a stock bike when I was shopping 3 years ago. Ended up with a custom ti frame.

Maybe I didn't look long enough. Anyway, it's a nice bike.

[Doug Fattic]

I have entertained myself reading this subject thread while taking Amtrak from CA to my home in MI (drove my daughter to grad school). This question pops up all the time on various forums. It suggests that I as a framebuilder can’t make a better riding frame (for someone that isn't on the fringes of the bell curve) than something cranked out of a factory by hourly workers. So the argument seems to be that there is no skill or carefulness or knowledge or selection that I make that can beat something standard made in bulk somewhere. Really? Well, I don’t think I’ve spent the the last 35 years of my life just making frames prettier. I can’t list all the reasons why I don’t agree with that assumption but I can give examples to illustrate what makes a custom frame ride better for a specific customer than something stock.

For starters a company making stock steel frames is going to select tubing that isn't going to break under the heaviest use by the biggest person because of liability issues. That is not close to optimum for those that aren't employed as lineman by the National Football league. There are a lot of choices in wall thicknesses, tubing diameters, butt placement and material hardness. One doesn’t have to be really smart to understand that those choices will vary how a frame rides. There is no chance that the heat treated 1” diameter top tube with .7mm/.4mm/.7mm wall thickness that I like best for myself is available in some stock frame. Stock is seldom heat treated, never so thin and almost nobody thinks smaller diameter sells any more.

Secondly I’ve never made 2 frames with identical designs. Everybody is a bit different and there is always something tweaked to fit them better. Every time. To use just one example, a company will select a bottom bracket height that works with longer cranks being pedaled through corners. The grief that would come from someone hitting the ground with their pedal is a lot greater than a slightly higher than optimum bottom bracket height. I use 170mm cranks and don’t need extra pedal to ground clearance. Stock sometimes needs to be on the edge of average rather than the middle. That can leave out the best option for a lot of people.

Third, the best custom builders work with more care. That doesn’t mean a company frame is poorly made, it is just that when your name is on the down tube you are more likely to put in the greatest effort. Here is a mitering example. Bicycle tubes are not perfectly straight but tend to have some curvature. Perhaps a bend of 1/16” is average. A good builder will roll a tube on his alignment table to mark where the miter should be so that curve is in the plane of the frame (or pitch those that are too crooked). He will also mark where the butts on the tube are located to optimize their placement. There is a “moment of inertia” place in the main triangle where a little extra thickness can be beneficial. When the mitering of the top tube is finished, both miters should be the right size, angle, length, in phase and on center besides being positioned where the butts can do the most good while negating its curve. I’ve watched top end semi-custom factories miter tubes and while their work is acceptable, they didn’t go to any lengths to make them perfect. What I’ve seen is that they grab a tube out of a box, chuck it in the machine, let it rip and then repeat. This is just one quality example of many. I don’t know what percentage of improvement getting “perfect” miters will be but when special care is done throughout the entire build, it must add up. Customers have assured me their custom bike rides better than whatever they had before. Besides being a builder I’m also a painter and have reconditioned thousands of frames over the years. I’ve never seen a production frame made as carefully as the top notch custom ones I’ve worked on. But I’ve seen a lot of carelessly made ones. Lots!

Today’s frame market is getting broader. It used to be mostly go fast frames (or go faster if the rider couldn’t go fast) but now there is a greater desire for a more utilitarian type of bicycle. Lights, racks and fatter tires with fenders create a diversity of need that isn’t particularly well met yet in bike stores. It is possible to make all those accessories work optimally when built with the bicycle rather than be after-thought add ons. Out of the last 100 of my framebuilding class students, only 3 have designed frames for 39 to 49mm brakes.

When I am riding in Ukraine on our annual fund-raising bike ride, I use a Trek sport touring frame I've reconditioned (its alignment was off and I redid the braze-ons and repainted it). It's seat and top tube length are the same as one I’ve built for myself. It’s made out of double butted tubing and I can easily adjust to the slightly steeper seat angle (I lower the handlebars a little so I can have the same body to leg angle). It is a very nice ride and when I pedal through small villages where I know most workers make less than $100 a month (and you still have to get all your water in a well beside the road), I'm not inclined to complain about any deficiency it might have over my personal bike. The surroundings put things in perspective. But I can certainly tell the difference.

Aesthetics don’t alter the ride of the bike but it can effect the way we feel about it. As humans we are drawn to nicer looking things and a bicycle frame is no exception. My colleagues who I admire the most put in many extra hours of work filing lugs and joints to a greater degree. You don’t necessarily have to have a trained eye to see it. Those that have taken my framebuilding class say they never look at a frame the same way again.

It is true that we change over time so what works best for us now may not be ideal later. It is the same reason to never buy a computer right away because a better one that will come out soon.

And maybe I should add that not all custom frames are of the same quality either. I’ve taught several hundred people to build frames since 1976. They vary in hand eye coordination, the standard that they strive for and the ability to understand and retain the subtleties of the craft. But the idea that the very best can’t optimize a custom frame so a customer can notice the difference is just silly.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

P.S. I hope none of my comments are seen as an advertisement to get a custom frame from me. Mostly what I do now is teach others how to build frames. There is a huge demand for this knowledge.

[dd74]

Every time I've heard (or read) a debate about the benefits of a custom frame, it was usually started by someone who has already decided they don't want to spend the money for a custom frame, but now second-guess themselves for that decision, particularly if they've already bought a standard-sized bike.

I'm not saying that's the case here with the OP. I'm just saying that the $$$ issue becomes a large part of it as well.

Happens all the time with tailored suits and add shots of espresso.

[Ray]

"The Spectrum was seemingly without compromise"

At this point, I would like someone to say something like "changing the head tube angle by .5 and using longer but stiffer stays made the frame descend better than any other I'd ridden, but it climbs with the best of them" rather than "Coke is it!"


Yeah, I'd written "the Spectrum was seemingly without compromise". I also wrote:


Part of it isn't body dimensions, which are not particularly unusual on me. Part of it is how you ride. I've never been a racer or pseudo racer or particularly fast, despite the many miles I used to ride and the reasonably many miles I still ride. I have much more of a tourist than racer mentality, but I still like an efficient and responsive feeling bike, so I wasn't looking for a touring bike. Because I'm not putting as much power into the pedals (thereby taking up a lot of weight with my legs) as your typical stage racer, I like my saddle back further to support the greater percentage of weight I have on my ass and to keep that weight off of my hands and shoulders. I've learned over the years where I'm most comfortable and efficient with my saddle placement and where I need the bars for the greatest comfort. On a typical stage race bike, my position puts too much weigh on the rear wheel and not enough on the front and they just don't handle well. I'd tried various sport touring bikes that are geometrically a bit better for the likes of me, but never found the sweet spot on one - although the closest I came was an early Rivendell that was geometrically very much like an RB-1 with slightly longer stays. But the back end of that bike was a bit TOO stable for my liking and the front end was a bit squirrely for my taste. Tom's custom design had the perfect combination of a mid-length chainstay (longer than most race bikes, shorter than even that early Riv, which was already shorter than current Rivs by quite a bit) and a combination of fore-aft balance and front end geometry that allows the bike to handle in a way I never knew was even possible before. Instantly responsive but still dead stable when I want it to be. For a guy who rides like I do with my position, I'd never found anything that came close. Essentially a bike that handles like a stage race bike for a guy who doesn't sit on it or power it like a stage racer would.

I can't really add to what Doug said so well, but you asked a specific question...

Someone else mentioned "reverse engineering" from other bikes you'd owned or ridden a lot. Tom asked me about the bikes I'd spent the most time on and what I liked about them and what I hoped to improve on. I was as specific with him as I could articulate. In the case of the Riv mentioned above, I mentioned how on the flats, the rear of the bike felt incredibly planted, almost more than I liked at times but that the front end could feel a bit loose at speed. I talked about a couple of other bikes and what I liked and didn't like about them. All of them had compromises. The Riv were the toughest for me to reconcile - most bikes were either a bit too stable or a bit too quick overall - the Riv was a little of both. I really sort of assumed that quick/responsive and stable were somewhat mutually exclusive, not qualities that could BOTH be designed into the same frame, but that the best you could hope for was the right compromise between the two for a given rider. I went to Tom to test that assumption. I could have asked everyone on a bike forum to try to convince me it was possible or impossible but I figured the only way to know was to try.

And then, as I said, Tom designed a frame that felt incredibly locked in at speed, dead stable at both high and relatively slow speeds (ride no handed more relaxed than I'd ever been on any other bike stable) and yet incredibly quick and responsive in tight corners and twisty descents. In retrospect, I can guess at the effects of the placement of the wheels under my center of gravity (ie, chainstay length and front center) and I can guess about the steering geometry and bottom bracket drop, but I can't tell you that 'shortening the chainstay 15mm made the bike 4% more responsive than the previous bike and increasing the trail by 2mm made it 6% more stable'. So if that's what its gonna take to satisfy your skepticism, you're just gonna have to stay somewhere in that range between skeptical and cynical. What I can tell you is he heard what I said about various bikes and how they rode and handled and designed a bike that eliminated the compromises that the other bikes had, as skeptical as I was about whether they COULD be eliminated. All of this interacting with the part about how I ride and how I sit on a bike, as noted in the previous post. You may want more specificity - good luck.

You can decide that a custom bike is worthwhile for you or that it could or couldn't ride better for you or NOT (although I don't know that you can KNOW that without trying one). You can't decide whether it was for me. I'm talking only about ride and handling, others are talking about aesthetics, others are talking about the relationship with the builder/designer. All are as valid as they need to be. You can pick one, or two, or all of them, or, as seems likely, NONE of them as adequate reasons to own a custom frame. You can't decide or judge whether the custom rode and handled differently and better enough than any stock bike to justify its existence to ME, however.

-Ray

[jblande]

Please read E-Richie's post again, Andrew. Before you respond again with your desire for a quantification of the differences (which I well understand) I think his arguments really put this to rest.

When you buy a custom frame, you are buying a frame that on the most basic level fits the contact points and your riding desire insofar as your chosen builder implements such information. Other than by amassing significantly more empirical data than any of us have access to, or than has probably been recorded, there is no way to know how a bike for X person with Y dimensions and Z riding desiderata would be built by different custom builders.

You are buying a bike from a craftsman whose work you trust and are enthused about when you buy a custom bike just as when you buy one off the shelf. Their years of building bikes and enthusing their customers, not my sensation that the .5mm more of top tube or less of bb drop, is the empirical data that matters to me when I consider purchasing a bike. I own a stock bike that does everything just perfectly, and I would buy a Pinarello or a Colnago or a Specialized too, if the desire struck me and I was flush with cash. I also own a 'custom' bike with couplers and would purchase further custom bikes.

But in doing so I would be relying on the exact same criteria when making the decision to purchase from any of the so-called custom builders or an off the shelf bike. What they can do with respect to tubing choices or handling or braze-ons, or couplers---that may lend you some flexibility in meeting a greater set of desiderata in a single bike. The point remains, however, you are buying the reputation of the builder and their craftsmanship, just as you are buying the reputation of the builder when you buy your made in Taiwan Pinarello or your sourced-from-East-Asia titanium bike. We all know that in a race, ceteris peribus, the strongest rider will win, not the most custom bike. So it would be nice if we would avoid insinuating that a custom is going to somehow make me better than riding 15,000 miles a year and training smart. If it feels right and rides right, then it's all good. The rest is a question of how much time and how much drive you've got to get good at turning the crank.

End of story, as far as I care.

[rugbysecondrow]

Fair enough. I just re-read the entire thread. Here are some of the most descriptive passages I could find. Pick or add one that really nails it:
"Custom for me provides that 5% better handling and comfort. In other words optimal performance for me. Not something most folks will ever notice."
"I like my custom geos better than any stock bikes I own - they put a big smile on my face. Would that be true if I left it up to the builder? Unknown. I like controlling that variable."
"It may be a placebo effect, but think I can feel a positive difference in the way the bike rides over rough stuff."
"a meal made by a chef, made by hand, with ingredients he/she chose"
"they are building it for YOU (regardless of fit issues), and that is a special feeling."
"The Spectrum was seemingly without compromise"
"Why not have a relationship that will last a life time instead of a 30 second deal with an online retailer whom you've never even talked with?"
" It will make you smile and want to ride more!"
" i'd wager that most professional makers veer very little from their "way", and make few, if any, concessions to design that would adversely affect how they (the makers) feel a bicycle should work."

At this point, I would like someone to say something like "changing the head tube angle by .5 and using longer but stiffer stays made the frame descend better than any other I'd ridden, but it climbs with the best of them" rather than "Coke is it!"


I'm sorry, but "first turn of the crank" reads more like Romantic poetry than a description of how a machine works for you in comparison to another one. I'm not out to prove anything, I'd just like ONE person to say something even vaguely technical on the subject. Frankly, making insubstantive statements and then lamenting my failure to 'get it' is just as annoying as my attempts to elicit a single description that doesn't really entirely on poetic allusions, rhetoric and metaphor.

If you were being honest, you would admit that no answer would be good enough for you. There is no one answer for going custom (it seems that is why it is custom) but that explanation seems to be not good enough for you. You can say statements are not substantive, it might not be the answer you want, but it is AN answer to your question. You asked for one person to expain what "it" was, I am one person. My turning the crank is not poetic nuance, it is a technical and specific act. I know when I first set off that this bike is wonderful. There are reasons why it is custom and feels great, ST angle for my brooks and proper KOP, a frame that accomodates my weight and has great power transfer, an appropriate HT that accomodates my lower back injury allowing me to ride longer pain free, greater trail that allows me to have a less twitchy ride (disclaimer...this is a lay persons discription of what was done). All of this and way more (I am not technical) were combined to make my bike mine. I explained how I wanted the bike to ride, how Iwas going to use it, what my limitations are and the fitter and the builder worked together to come up with technical solutions to make it ride like I want. If it rides like I wanted, then the did a great job...it rides better than that which is why I am going back for a second Bedford. That would be the reason Ray went back for a second Spectrum.

Having said that, it will likely not be a sufficient or substantive enough answer for you.

[William]

A.) Everyone can and will benefit from a well executed custom.

Sure, everyone “can” benefit from a well executed custom. Color choices, fender mounts, lugged, fillet, tig, clearance for fenders etc… Many choices to dial in a frame for your specific needs and desires. Sure sizing is important as well, but it’s not always the sole reason for going custom.

B.) Most riders don't need custom: Just a good selection of stock frames.

As the bell curve points out….

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=78287

the majority of folks out there are well covered by the stock offerings of most manufacturers. So no, most people don’t necessarily “need” a custom. …most people “want” a custom . The number of riders who truly need a custom due to size or physical constraints is likely quite low in comparison.

Your posts seem to indicate you don’t believe that a builder can tune a frame to a riders size, strength, and riding style. At least no one so far has explained it to your satisfaction. I’m not sure that anyone can since their explanations as to why a custom feels better to them will still be based on perception. I can only attempt to explain from my experience on a custom…which is based on my location on the far side of the Bell Curve.

I can ride a stock 63 cm frame…as long as it has very long stem and two feet of post showing. I actually won races on a set up like that. I could make it work, but it wasn’t ideal. The frame was like a noodle and I could make it ghost shift in hard sprints. I couldn’t take my hands off the bars without the front end starting to shimmy and oscillate. I’m a very big, strong guy. My first custom had a longer TT which allowed me to use a stem in more normal size. Larger stiffer fillet brazed tubing could better handle my strength and weight which eliminated the excessive flex and ghost shifting. Getting the frame sized for me moved my weight more evenly over both wheels which made the front end more stable so that I wouldn’t get the front end shimmy anymore if I took my hands off the bars. After switching all my components over to the new frame and getting some miles under my belt, I certainly felt like I was better able to more efficiently transfer my power to the pavement. It certainly felt faster and it absolutely handled better.

When I had my Cross bike built, I told the builder I wanted a bike I could race on, but I would also be doing a fair amount of winter riding on the road. I let him make the choices based on my size, weight, strength, riding style, and ques from my current ride. His choices in tubing an geometry yielded a bike that handles great off-road, and is one of the best on road rides that I’ve experienced. Of course that description is based on my perception of what I like and what I’ve experienced in the past. Whatever you call it, he got it right.




William

[Bob Ross]

I'm sorry, but "first turn of the crank" reads more like Romantic poetry than a description of how a machine works for you in comparison to another one. I'm not out to prove anything, I'd just like ONE person to say something even vaguely technical on the subject. Frankly, making insubstantive statements and then lamenting my failure to 'get it' is just as annoying as my attempts to elicit a single description that doesn't really entirely on poetic allusions, rhetoric and metaphor.

Interesting that you specifically cite "poetry" as the red herring.

"Poetry" was the very reason I ordered a bike from Richard Sachs.

Amidst the seemingly endless litany of bike reviews touting various models' "laterally stiff while vertically compliant" performance, Sachs owners seemed to write about the ride experience in far more florid, romantic terms...their use of "poetic allusions, rhetoric and metaphor" seemed far more appealing with regards to my experiences riding a bicycle than any of the "this baby corners like it's on rails" soundbites (stolen from a Julia Roberts movie).

I want a bike that rides like a dream, that rides like a poem, that rides like a hawk flies, that rides like a cloud wafted by virgin's breath... and I never saw anyone describe their stock Litespeed that way.

[AndrewS]

First, apologies to Ray, who did post a very substansive description of the how's and why's of his custom: He describes both what he wasn't getting with stock and how TK solved the problem. Sorry to have missed it.

Posting this thread was not an act of Custom defiance. It was an attempt to extract a better description of how the custom process actually works on the builder's side. Since I have never bought a custom, the only point of view worth defending was the stock side, not because I believe it to be the only right answer, but because it is the one I have experience with and it has satisfied me so far.

I don't think it should ever be bad to ask "how?" when someone tells you that X is a huge improvement over Y. If I asked a food critic why the tomato soup is better, he might suggest a dash of coriander contrasts the tomato. That is a simple, but very concrete and factual answer.

I did read E-ritchie's post again - he's the one I quoted with: "i'd wager that most professional makers veer very little from their "way", and make few, if any, concessions to design that would adversely affect how they (the makers) feel a bicycle should work."

I also closely read Mr. Fattic's post. I don't disbelieve him in the slightest, but his post doesn't shed a lot of light on the process of making a bike for a particular person. How does he determine that a more flexible top tube meets the client's wishes? How many top tubes are there to choose from in tuning the frame? These are not bad questions.

I am a technical person. I make knives, from scratch, using a forge and hammer. I can tell you about different heat treatments, subtle differences in grinding angles, justifications for handle shape and texture, how damascus patterns are formed, crystal states of different portions of the blade, etc. Most other knife forum people also speak enough tech to be able to describe something via process, rather than the "feel" of the result. They are very informed buyers.

This thread was posted to give the proponents of custom work a chance to share the process with everyone who might be skeptical or just want to understand how it happens. I really don't think we've stepped much past "A custom builder uses your measurements and an interview process to determine the best geometry and tubing selection for your riding needs."

[William]

I am a technical person. I make knives, from scratch, using a forge and hammer. I can tell you about different heat treatments, subtle differences in grinding angles, justifications for handle shape and texture, how damascus patterns are formed, crystal states of different portions of the blade, etc. Most other knife forum people also speak enough tech to be able to describe something via process, rather than the "feel" of the result. They are very informed buyers.






Nothing wrong with asking questions.

Now with knives I've always been a stock guy. I've thought about custom and talked with one knife maker about a particular design. I never went through with but noticed a few years later that the designer was offering something just like what I described in a well known blade catalog.

It comes up from time to time here....

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=40399&highlight=knives

I would love to hear more about what you design and create....but that is another thread.





William

[tch]

....If you were being honest, you would admit that no answer would be good enough for you.

Andrew, why don't you give it a rest? You are asking a question with a specific answer or kind of answer in mind, and then not you're not happy when people don't provide it back to you. As you say (and I'll admit) some of these are decent questions. But when well over 25 different people answer them in ways that are significant to THEM and you're still not happy, then maybe it's because you're never going be happy with any answer other than the one that you have already decided upon.

Answers don't always have to be right for everyone. If all the people who write here in defense of their custom frames are happy, then these answers are good enough for them.

The real person who needs to think about your questions is you yourself. If you are unhappy with other answers, that's YOUR issue.

[rugbysecondrow]

First, apologies to Ray, who did post a very substansive description of the how's and why's of his custom: He describes both what he wasn't getting with stock and how TK solved the problem. Sorry to have missed it.

Posting this thread was not an act of Custom defiance. It was an attempt to extract a better description of how the custom process actually works on the builder's side. Since I have never bought a custom, the only point of view worth defending was the stock side, not because I believe it to be the only right answer, but because it is the one I have experience with and it has satisfied me so far.

I don't think it should ever be bad to ask "how?" when someone tells you that X is a huge improvement over Y. If I asked a food critic why the tomato soup is better, he might suggest a dash of coriander contrasts the tomato. That is a simple, but very concrete and factual answer.

I did read E-ritchie's post again - he's the one I quoted with: "i'd wager that most professional makers veer very little from their "way", and make few, if any, concessions to design that would adversely affect how they (the makers) feel a bicycle should work."

I also closely read Mr. Fattic's post. I don't disbelieve him in the slightest, but his post doesn't shed a lot of light on the process of making a bike for a particular person. How does he determine that a more flexible top tube meets the client's wishes? How many top tubes are there to choose from in tuning the frame? These are not bad questions.

I am a technical person. I make knives, from scratch, using a forge and hammer. I can tell you about different heat treatments, subtle differences in grinding angles, justifications for handle shape and texture, how damascus patterns are formed, crystal states of different portions of the blade, etc. Most other knife forum people also speak enough tech to be able to describe something via process, rather than the "feel" of the result. They are very informed buyers.

This thread was posted to give the proponents of custom work a chance to share the process with everyone who might be skeptical or just want to understand how it happens. I really don't think we've stepped much past "A custom builder uses your measurements and an interview process to determine the best geometry and tubing selection for your riding needs."



I thought the thread was started to poll, to ask a question. Seems you ask the question, it was answered, then you asked another question, which was answered, then you asked another question...as the answers trickle in, you shift your question. If this was meant to tease out the builders side, then why ask the end user. I don't know the secret incrediant to my favorite Lobster Bisque...that is a question for the builder not the consumer. You know this, but you seem to be trolling...that seems disengenious to any discussion.

You discuss defending a point of view, the view of stock bikes, but you framed the discussion. So, for my edification, you started a discussion, created an Custom vs. Stock discussion, invited others to discuss their opinion then answer a poll question, then you want to argue about what you solicited...again disengenious.

You then, after Mr. Fattic wrote 4 long paragraphs attempting to answer you question, you disregard it and then shift the question again...turn it into a discussion about the technical merits of top tube flex. Again, disengenious. Ask a question, accept the answer (like it or not) just don't tell everyone the question wasn't answered because it is just not true.

Maybe we are just dumb ignorant bike people, not as informed as the tech savy knife folks, but A) insulting folks by implying they are ignorant is just plain impolite after they have tried answering your question(s). B) I think a bike frame is more complicated than a knife...the builder of frames has more on the line due to the nature of the tool...IMO the frame builder has a more complicated and technically harder job, but that is due to my obvious bias.

You write, This thread was posted to give the proponents of custom work a chance to share the process with everyone who might be skeptical or just want to understand how it happens. I really don't think we've stepped much past "A custom builder uses your measurements and an interview process to determine the best geometry and tubing selection for your riding needs."

Again, disengenious. You have TROLLED for an arguement. If this is why you started this thread, then why not say so up front, but that is not the question you asked. If you want to, "extract a better description of how the custom process actually works on the builder's side", then ask that question...but you didn't. You can't expect people to answer a question you didn't answer.

[William]

This thread was posted to give the proponents of custom work a chance to share the process with everyone who might be skeptical or just want to understand how it happens. I really don't think we've stepped much past "A custom builder uses your measurements and an interview process to determine the best geometry and tubing selection for your riding needs."

I think that is part of what a good builder should be able to do. Sift through what the buyer is saying about what he likes, the type of riding the frame is for, size weight and strength of the rider and translate all that into a proper handling frame by choosing the correct tubing and geometry to produce a tool that he/she feels will work in the manner the buyer describes. A good builder understands this process and how it works. 99.9% of the folks on forum likely don't so you won't likely get the technical answers your seeking.

[Pete Serotta]

I think that is part of what a good builder should be able to do. Sift through what the buyer is saying about what he likes, the type of riding the frame is for, size weight and strength of the rider and translate all that into a proper handling frame by choosing the correct tubing and geometry to produce a tool that he/she feels will work in the manner the buyer describes. A good builder understands this process and how it works. 99.9% of the folks on forum likely don't so you won't likely get the technical answers your seeking.

Well said..... :) :beer:

Pete

[Charles M]

And....

Said 20 times... ;)

[1centaur]

AndrewS:

I understand your instinct that what a custom builder really does re: geometry is listen to somebody who wants more stability and decrease the HTA .5 degrees and lower the drop .5 cm, or vice versa for somebody who wants a bike to be quicker. It is interesting and perhaps frustrating to read threads over the years where builders don't specify, they generalize to the extent that one wonders who's standing behind that curtain. To some extent that sentiment helped me to get to the point where I wanted to specify a couple of things myself, since I saw that different builders had very different ideas about how a race bike should handle.

All that said, I think there are enough potential variables that it's not a quick and easy answer from a builder, and I don't mind that builders choose to keep their cards close to the vest (nor do I think they have to educate all comers on their life's experience). We can see from stock geos that most bikes for a given size rider look very similar on paper, so why buy one vs. another? Because slight differences can make a real difference when one turns the crank 200,000 times.

If I were to summarize the why custom answer, it would be that a good builder knows enough to move your geo in the direction necessary to meet what you want, will construct with particular care (which I think is very important to LT happiness - see that Serpotta video again), will offer features unavailable in stock and will allow you to paint it as you wish under warranty. Those reasons alone are sufficient to choose custom.

[BengeBoy]

I really don't think we've stepped much past "A custom builder uses your measurements and an interview process to determine the best geometry and tubing selection for your riding needs."

I think you're choosing to ignore some of the information you've been given.

I have two custom bikes, one of which I described above. I won't bother going into details on the second one.

In both cases, I got a combination of *technical* (not aesthetic) features that didn't exist in stock bikes.

[malcolm]

Maybe the term custom is the problem. It seems to imply some sort of magic or something. I'm fine with handmade, then differentiate between the one man shop and others. If I was given a choice between 2 frames exactly the same and both doing exaxtly what I wanted them to do. I would choose the one man shop over the one made by some worker in a factory every time, just because that is what rings my bell. Others are free to use their FRNs as they please. Ride what you like and what works for you, but don't waste a lot of effort trying to dissuade others from what they like and the this one is better than that one argument will never be solved.

[benb]

AndrewS you seem to really like the Lynskey's frames for whatever reason.. I think the only way you are going to answer this question for yourself is to talk to them the next time you want/need a bike.

Go through the process and find out what someone would actually recommend for you.. then you will have the answers. Maybe you will make the leap and take their advice and buy the custom frame they design for *you*. If they don't think they can come up with anything better than stock for you, then you might have your own personal answer. If you're not an expert on building frames why presume they can't make something better if they make it specifically for you?

Otherwise you'll just continue to hear people talk in generalities, because each person has a different reason and my reason is never going to be applicable to you.

My attitude was a lot like yours before I gave it a try.

[David Kirk]

Maybe the term custom is the problem............

I agree. I think there are many ways to refer to the many ways builders build. At one end of the continuum you have someone I think of as the 'contract builder' and they build whatever you want using the stuff you want them to use. At the far other end is the guy who will build you a made to measure frame that is the same as all the other made to measure frames he builds - except that it fits you - and uses the materials of his choosing. And of course there are a hundred steps in the middle. Yet all are generically called 'custom' and while some are others are far from it.

I tend to think of myself as a 'made to measure builder' who chooses the geometry and materials that I feel are best suited to you and how you will use the bike and at the same time enjoy giving you some room for input at to how the bike should look - lug choice, paint colors and the such. I am far from a contract builder and turn down a good bit of work where the customer tells me they want a bike built with X tubes and to the specs enclosed on the excel spreadsheet. I just don't do that because I know the chances that all will be happy in the end are very small.

I wish we could wipe the term 'custom' off the page and have a better term but we are asking one word to do too much work IMO.

dave

[Pete Serotta]

Dave, we can wipe the word custom off.....just let me know a good word for this thread is going long and not increasing in value for most.

[Charles M]

The definition of levels of custom along with virtually everything else, has been discussed a few times above.


At the point that 1Centaur, JackB, E Rich and David K's answers are bad, I would start to look at the question...


Some threads (this being one) just start flawed and keep going.

Trying to change the course of some threads would be like putting a Garmin on the Titanic... We're just that split second too late. :D

[tch]

this thread is going long and not increasing in value for most.

+1

[BengeBoy]

To be sure, the word "custom" in the bike industry frequently gets covered in stuff that seems to distort the meaning of the word, at least to me.

This "bike studio" in Texas bills itself as "the World's Premiere Custom Bicycle Shop."

As far as I can tell, most of their business comes from helping people choose frames, conducting fitting sessions, and then doing "custom" component builds.

http://www.kgsbikes.com/

So, for example, you can get an Americano touring frame + fork at any other Co-Motion dealer for around $1850. But if you get it from "the World's Premiere Custom Bicycle Shop" it will cost you $2731:

http://www.kgsbikes.com/products/co-motion-bicycle-frames/americano-touring-bike

Pricing from Co-Motion website:

http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/americano.html

[Pete Serotta]

Please feel free to ask specific questions in other threads.......THANKS
:crap: :crap: