Have you read this about carbon?

[AndrewS]

http://www.calfeedesign.com/whitepaper9.htm

It's a later page on Calfee's site that dissects different construction methods. While certainly biased, they certainly make the case for the old Tetra, which is pretty light and apparently rides well. They use some of the methods they are critical of on their newer frames, so maybe they are being somewhat open in this.

I'd enjoy reading some discussion about this by the carbon gurus on the forum. How far has carbon come since the early '90s?

[pdmtong]

Read it for what it is, an opinion.

I had a calfee luna. now I have a parlee Z3c. there is no comparison of the ride between the two, even though they are both in the same group. the parlee ride is signicficantly better in all aspects. IMHO. the luna just felt dead and couldnt absorb road imperfections as well.

I also am lucky enough to own an ottrott. same comment versus the luna. it's not even close.

now between the parlee and the ottortt? I always use the ottrott for the long organized rides. it is just soooo comfortable. when I am on the Z3c, I feel like more racy. but I htink that is simply because it feels snappier. the ottrott doesnt snap...it just quietly winds up and next thing you know you are blazing.

Oddly, luna is supposed to ride same as tetra. I alomst bought a dragonfly once, but since that time, there has been a LOT more choice in carbon.

For custom, you now have crumpton, kirklee, rrvelo, rue sports, strong, calfee, parlee and then IF/seven/serotta. so many choices . . .

[dekindy]

Interesting commments.

However the Calfees that you reference cost many thousands less than the other brands that you reference, Parlee, etc., don't they? How do Calfees compare to frames in their price range?

Are you comparing stock Calfee to custom everything else or custom to custom or even custom Calfee to stock in the premium brands?

[happycampyer]

I agree with pdmtong—it's just an opinion, granted, from a well-respected builder and carbon guru. Although it claims to be updated through 2009, I remember looking at that white paper many, many years ago and it looked the same (and it still refers to the Look KG series, etc.). Also, it mischaracterizes Parlee's—they are not tube and lugs, but tube-to-tube (I think they should be in the last category, "Carbon Tubes/Carbon Joints/Pressure Lamination." I also agree that, when it comes to the seat-of-the-pants test, the quality of the execution is key, and there are penty of bikes that overcome what appear, on (this white) paper, to be inferior construction methods.

[AndrewS]

I agree with pdmtong—it's just an opinion, granted, from a well-respected builder and carbon guru. Although it claims to be updated through 2009, I remember looking at that white paper many, many years ago and it looked the same (and it still refers to the Look KG series, etc.). Also, it mischaracterizes Parlee's—they are not tube and lugs, but tube-to-tube (I think they should be in the last category, "Carbon Tubes/Carbon Joints/Pressure Lamination." I also agree that, when it comes to the seat-of-the-pants test, the quality of the execution is key, and there are penty of bikes that overcome what appear, on (this white) paper, to be inferior construction methods.
That's interesting. The local Parlee dealer had even told me that they premold the lugs then CNC them for the specific geometry of the bike, but Parlee's website description sounds more like the pressure lamination method.

Re-checked Parlee's site: Sounds like they use both methods, depending on model.

[Charles M]

That info is just dated.

It's opinion as well, and widely held opinion as it strictly relates to the pro and con section... But it's simply off base with regard to several brands current tech, making it misleading.


Parlee build using several methods... They fall under the last group (which should just be called carbon Tube to tube) with the Tetra far more than where the paper putes them. Some of the builders dont use the methods stated any longer and or some have more bikes in one group than another...



Not much to discuss honestly.

[Dave]

Here's a picture of a Parlee that shows questionable construction.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2pyxd9x.jpg

[bfd]

Here's a picture of a Parlee that shows questionable construction.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2pyxd9x.jpg


And here's an old photo of a broken Calfee:

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-016/BrokenCalfee.jpg

The bottom line is both can be repaired. Supposedly, the broken Calfee was easily fixed for about $250. Good Luck!

[pdmtong]

That's interesting. The local Parlee dealer had even told me that they premold the lugs then CNC them for the specific geometry of the bike, but Parlee's website description sounds more like the pressure lamination method.

Re-checked Parlee's site: Sounds like they use both methods, depending on model.
The high end Parlee's are not lugged. see the factory video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22AnlUprKs0) that was made (similar to the serotta vdieo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22AnlUprKs0

It is relevant to include price into the discussion....$6k parlee framest vs <$3k calfee frameset...but my point was simply that the chart characterizes rides indpenedent of cost, and in many ways tries to lay foundation for relative inferiority of other builders, which is not true.

There was a time when calfee was the best choice, but now there are so many more choices it's simply worth checking them all out. like happy said, nothing can replace the seat of the pants perspective. dont get me wrong, I dont turn my nose up at calfees. it's just that even around here, 50 miles from the factory, they are rarely seen anymore. Ride a tarmac SL3 sometime. holy crap that bike is nice. I havent stepped up to the inner circle one man builder world yet, so am stuck on the tier with the small mfg. I like the fact someone in peadbody, saratoga springs or sommerville had their mitts on my frame. psychic value for sure

frankly, everytime I start to lose interest in my ottrott becasue its "old technology" I ride it again and remember why it brought me smiles the first time. that thing is just a pleasure to ride, even if it is a "dentist/doctor bike"

[Nil Else]

Whatever it means, based on no ride experience and purely on object-of-carbon-desire, in hindsight, I regret not getting a Parlee and I'm glad I didn't go ahead with a Calfree back some 5-6 years ago; I ended up getting neither.

[AndrewS]

The high end Parlee's are not lugged. see the factory video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22AnlUprKs0) that was made (similar to the serotta vdieo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22AnlUprKs0

I didn't say they were. I said that they used both methods, lugged and whatever we're calling the other one, depending on model. I guess you're just saying that the most expensive Parlee uses the other method.

[pdmtong]

Yup. The z1 z2 z3 tubes are joined by wrapping the carbon in place. A sort of made in place lug if you will

More hand work equals more cost

Now whether this is the best could be endlessly debated and I certainly wouldn't claim that. Is the ride nice ? All I can say is yes it is nice.
The bummer is Parlee prices went from 2700 five years ago to what 6000?
That's a lot of coin for sure. Even if you are a NYC cycle stud