Questions about Merlin

[tuxbailey]

I ride a Merlin and I have grown to like it a lot. I acquired it used (the only way I could afford it) and I have been trying learn more about its history, etc.

My question is what is their current state? It seems like that their website had not been updated for a while. Are they still being sold new? The only LBS that sell it in my local area had been closed for a while.

Sometimes I see them on sale in Colorado Cyclist or in bonktown.

Just general curiosity.

[firerescuefin]

I too own a Merlin. Yes, you can still get a new one. Since being sold to American Bicycle Group, they (along with their other brands) have been completely mismanaged IMO.

PEZ (as well as others inside the industry on the forum) may have some good insight into this.

http://www.americanbicyclegroup.com/

[AngryScientist]

unfortunately, i agree on the mismanagement comment. you're right, the "featured bike" on the Merlin website is a 2009 bike!

i wonder what they will do moving forward, it seems that they may consolidate the brand, why keep litespeed and merlin, seems kind of like the hard lessons GM learned with having oldsmobile, buick, pontiac - the same car with three different badges in a lot of the cases.

hopefully someone with more inside knowledge will chime in.

[AndrewS]

My LBS has both Merlin and Litespeed. It is weird that their websites don't get updated.

Merlin still has an arrangement with Spectrum cycles - he provides geometry and they construct his Ti models.

I haven't heard anything bad about Merlin's production since the sale. But I have a Vandermark era Extralight that is my favorite. (I've also had 3 Lynskey era Litespeeds - down to 2 now.)

There are only a handful of US titanium makers that are worth a damn, and none of them are doing anything partcularly exciting with their all Ti bikes compared to Litespeed and Merlin, IMO.

[tuxbailey]

There are only a handful of US titanium makers that are worth a damn, and none of them are doing anything partcularly exciting with their all Ti bikes compared to Litespeed and Merlin, IMO.


Blunt statement in this forum ;) :D

Merlins are nice and I prefer their looks and the traditional geometry over Litespeed. I am pretty I would have been equally if I have gotten a Litespeed in a similar deal (The Litespeed Classic is sweet.)

I am puzzled that given that they are nice bikes, they are just not as prominent.

[fourflys]

Blunt statement in this forum ;) :D

Merlins are nice and I prefer their looks and the traditional geometry over Litespeed. I am pretty I would have been equally if I have gotten a Litespeed in a similar deal (The Litespeed Classic is sweet.)

I am puzzled that given that they are nice bikes, they are just not as prominent.

Have you seen the fairly new Litespeed Xicon? It's a pretty straightforward, traditional design, albeit with a sloping tt... I have one and am pretty sure I couldn't tell the difference between it and the twice as much Icon...

http://threeflys.smugmug.com/Sports/Cycling/IMG2273/813630081_Nkfxa-M.jpg

[tuxbailey]

Have you seen the fairly new Litespeed Xicon? It's a pretty straightforward, traditional design, albeit with a sloping tt... I have one and am pretty sure I couldn't tell the difference between it and the twice as much Icon...

http://threeflys.smugmug.com/Sports/Cycling/IMG2273/813630081_Nkfxa-M.jpg

That looks very nice. Very Lynskey like :) I just can't get over the oversize Litespeed decals.

[firerescuefin]

albeit with a sloping tt...
http://threeflys.smugmug.com/Sports/Cycling/IMG2273/813630081_Nkfxa-M.jpg


No need to apologize for a STT. I laugh at every person that takes a shot at a photo posted with one. I prefer it. I don't look at a standard bike and think any less of it. It's just not me. Beautiful ride by the way.

[Jeff N.]

I think Tom Kellogg is the one to speak with re: Merlin. After all, he is the designer. My '05 Extralight, with it's 1", straight-as-an-arrow chainstays and hourglass-shaped seatstays, is as fine a Ti machine as I've thrown a leg over. Tom? You there? Why is Merlin so...off the radar these days? Jeff N.

[AndrewS]

Sorry, I re-thought what I said. Lynskey is the only one who actually does anything exciting with all Ti, but Merlin and Litespeed at least show some innovation in some of their models.

Seven, Moots, Dean, Serotta, IF just make round tube bicycles that don't really grab me. (But they do ride well.) I don't think cutting a ti bike up to substitute glued in carbon is all that interesting (or necessary).

[tuxbailey]

I think Tom Kellogg is the one to speak with re: Merlin. After all, he is the designer. My '05 Extralight, with it's 1", straight-as-an-arrow chainstays and hourglass-shaped seatstays, is as fine a Ti machine as I've thrown a leg over. Tom? You there? Why is Merlin so...off the radar these days? Jeff N.

A fellow 05 owner! It is one sweet frame indeed :)

[Pete Serotta]

I think Tom Kellogg is the one to speak with re: Merlin. After all, he is the designer. My '05 Extralight, with it's 1", straight-as-an-arrow chainstays and hourglass-shaped seatstays, is as fine a Ti machine as I've thrown a leg over. Tom? You there? Why is Merlin so...off the radar these days? Jeff N.

SPectrum Cycles and Tom are the "go to" and expert on this and also his products are very good!!!! PETE

[tuxbailey]

SPectrum Cycles and Tom and the "go to" and expert on this and also his products are very good!!!! PETE

Maybe one day I can afford his service. One can always dream :D

[firerescuefin]

I'm pinching pennies for my custom Kirk JKS...so don't think we're all "ballers" on here. :beer:

[alancw3]

[QUOTE=
There are only a handful of US titanium makers that are worth a damn, and none of them are doing anything partcularly exciting with their all Ti bikes compared to Litespeed and Merlin, IMO.[/QUOTE]

i would think that the people at moots would take exception to this statement. perhaps you need to update your knowledge of titanium frames in the marketplace. just saying.

another note about litespeed. it is my understanding that since the management at litespeed (businessmen not cyclists) changed the compensation of framebuilders (like several years ago now from hourly to piecemeal) that quality has suffered greatly.

[Pete Serotta]

i would think that the people at moots would take exception to this statement. perhaps you need to update your knowledge of titanium frames in the marketplace. just saying.


Moots, Ericksen, Serotta, Spectrum......there are probably others but from my personal experience and based on many years of information these are the ones I would recommend first!!!!


PETE

[Bob Ross]

I think Tom Kellogg is the one to speak with re: Merlin. After all, he is the designer.

Still?

[firerescuefin]

i would think that the people at moots would take exception to this statement. perhaps you need to update your knowledge of titanium frames in the marketplace. just saying.


Perhaps he just forgot the name Moots after only driking a half cup of coffee this morning (beautiful bikes btw)....just sayin.

[Pete Serotta]

Still?


Yep, give TOM a call. :) :)

[firerescuefin]

Still?


They "still" say "geometry by TK" on the chainstays.

[AndrewS]

i would think that the people at moots would take exception to this statement. perhaps you need to update your knowledge of titanium frames in the marketplace. just saying.
Alan,

I imagine people at all those companies might take exception.

Since Moots doesn't publish frame weights, I had to look for awhile to find the "amazing" frame weight of 2.67 pounds for the new RSL. A Lynskey Helix test I found showed a weight of 2.42. The Extralights have been running around 2.5 pounds for 15 years, and Litespeed had a sub 2 pound frame a decade ago.

Without getting into a huge pissing contest, what would you say Moots is bringing to the table that Erikson or Seven, etc is not? I didn't see anything on their site or in photos that "updated" my knowledge sufficiently - so please fill me in.


As far as Tom Kellogg goes, he designed the road geometry, not the fabrication of the various Merlin road frames. My old Extralight has a "Designed by Rob Vandermark" sticker on it. He's the guy who got the weight down with a stiff BB and awesome ride.

[alancw3]

it seems that this model moots pushes the titanium frame to the max:

http://www.moots.com/#/product/bicycles/road_+_speciality/vamoots_rsl/

and i agree there are several other titanium manufacturers out there that make a great product but just don't push titanium anymore and have moved on to carbon fiber. and hey there is nothing srong with that. i was just trying to address the comment made about titanium.

[AngryScientist]

speaking of inovative Ti Companies, these rigs sure look interesting, i'd LOVE to get one one (vuelo velo):

http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Vuelo-Velo-12.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/vuelo-velo-oxford-st.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/campagBB@vuelodrome1.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Vuelo-Velo-1-and-Copenhagen-get-comfy-in-the-Bentley-Hotel-NY-NY1.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Di2-Bike3-45x68.jpg

[Pete Serotta]

Not to start an argument but I know that light weight is a measurement that most use to some extent but.....

Handling,stiffness, frame life, welds etc are worth far more, in the long run, than frame weight would be.

I do not mean to slight anyone but the frame weight when compared to the wheel weight/design, person's weight, person's conditioning etc....is a far lower priority to performance or frame ride.

Reminds me of many years ago about the
horsepower of US Muscle cars or today
megapixel count of digital cameras... :) :) :)

[AndrewS]

Yes, Alan, I can find and read Moots website press releases.

If you would trouble yourself to read my post, you'll note that I have stated some parameters that Moots would address in "pushing ti to the max".

Since weight isn't one, and ride/stiffness is up for debate (Lynskey making similar claims for the Helix) and lifetime warranties old news, what is it that Moots is doing that is amazing when compared to bikes not in their own line?

[jlwdm]

AndrewS:

I had forgotten about you. Five months in hiding and then here we go again. I remember the posting style from early this year.

Jeff

[michael white]

I have a Merlin Cyrene, just a fine normal ti bike, which I think is very hard to improve on . . . Mine is 8 years old and no worse for the wear. There was a time when ti was considered the absolute "ultimate" stuff for a bike, and some of us remember that and still see it as something of a miracle metal, but newer riders didn't live through that so they aren't feeling it. Ti bikes like mine are a couple hundred grams heavier than a carbon bike would be, not that I care. The Merlin/Litespeeds might not be stocked in your local bike shop any more, but they seem as well built as ever, if you ask me.

[Jeff N.]

I have a Merlin Cyrene, just a fine normal ti bike, which I think is very hard to improve on . . . Mine is 8 years old and no worse for the wear. There was a time when ti was considered the absolute "ultimate" stuff for a bike, and some of us remember that and still see it as something of a miracle metal, but newer riders didn't live through that so they aren't feeling it. Ti bikes like mine are a couple hundred grams heavier than a carbon bike would be, not that I care. The Merlin/Litespeeds might not be stocked in your local bike shop any more, but they seem as well built as ever, if you ask me.
Agreed.

[RADaines]

I have a Merlin Cyrene, just a fine normal ti bike, which I think is very hard to improve on . . . Mine is 8 years old and no worse for the wear. There was a time when ti was considered the absolute "ultimate" stuff for a bike, and some of us remember that and still see it as something of a miracle metal, but newer riders didn't live through that so they aren't feeling it.

I have read that Ti is making a slow come back as a "new" material. Since so much focus has been on CF, it appears that many (non-builders) are not aware that Ti is a great material for bikes. It is being re-discovered by people previously unfamiliar with it. My Axiom Ti is 5 years old and looks like it did the day I picked it up.

[fourflys]

That looks very nice. Very Lynskey like :) I just can't get over the oversize Litespeed decals.

thanks! I agree on the decals... maybe one day, I'll have something a bit more classic made and replace the HUGE ones...

[fourflys]

I tell you one thing that Merlin does better than ANYONE else... engraved "decals"! Those things are the sh*t!

BTW- I had the chance to check out a Vamoots RSL frame last year at Interbike... all I can say is WOW and if I'd have the coin, I'd have one over any other Ti bike... But, for the $$$, I don't think you can't beat my Xicon (or the Lynsky Cooper) for value... $1500 for F/F/HS.... (and welded inhouse, just tubes are outsourced...) and as I said before I don't think I (or most other enthusiast riders) would be able to tell the difference between it and the ones that cost twice as much...

[tch]

...There are only a handful of US titanium makers that are worth a damn, and none of them are doing anything partcularly exciting with their all Ti bikes compared to Litespeed and Merlin, IMO.
...why doing something "exciting" is so important. How about continuing to make and incrementally improve elegant, efficient, lightweight, solid, long-lasting and enjoyable-to-use tools -- which, after all, is all that bikes really are.

Maybe I show off my middle-aged grumpiness too much, but lately my least-favorite advertising phrase is "revolutionary" -- followed by "new and improved".

[54ny77]

silly me to point it out, but serotta's been known to make a pretty fine ti bike...

i'll take any one of their unexciting ti bikes any day, thank you! :banana:

[Bob Ross]

They "still" say "geometry by TK" on the chainstays.


Ah...well, perhaps that explains why they "still" have a 2009 model on their webpage? Sounds like Merlin isn't so into the New Model Every Year Upgrade thing. That's pretty cool in my book. I rode an Extralight in 2006 that I loved, it's nice to know a 2011 Extralight will probably be the same bike.

[Jeff N.]

I have read that Ti is making a slow come back as a "new" material. Since so much focus has been on CF, it appears that many (non-builders) are not aware that Ti is a great material for bikes. It is being re-discovered by people previously unfamiliar with it. My Axiom Ti is 5 years old and looks like it did the day I picked it up.
Few Ti frames in the world as sweet as an Axiom, IMO.

[palincss]

Sorry, I re-thought what I said. Lynskey is the only one who actually does anything exciting with all Ti, but Merlin and Litespeed at least show some innovation in some of their models.


For those like me who haven't been following along lately:

What constitutes "exciting" to you, and what is Lnyskey doing that is exciting? and
What are Merlin and Litespeed doing that you consider innovative?

[palincss]

Maybe I show off my middle-aged grumpiness too much, but lately my least-favorite advertising phrase is "revolutionary" -- followed by "new and improved".

When it comes to a product as mature as the bicycle, mostly "revolutionary" consists of re-introducing something last introduced 70 years ago.

[Jeff N.]

I think what the poster was referring to (exciting?) was the fact that Lynskey does a few things out of the ordinary that you don't see (and isn't even available) on many custom Ti frames, like internal brake cable routing, internal derailleur cable routing, 6/4 Ti integration and so on. At a slight...ahem...upcharge, of course. Jeff N.

[AndrewS]

Everybody, please pardon my "posting style". I say the darnedest things when talked down to. :)

As to "innovation", that's always a big question mark. Many innovations frankly aren't. But Lynskey, Litespeed and Merlin offer a variety of tube shapings and aesthetic effects that few other makers bother with. The biggest would be the Helix tubing, which is essentially a riff on the rifled TSX concept. But polishing, laser etching, diamond tubing, logo dropouts, light weight are all things that you'll see from these companies. They also have been good about offering innovative mountain bikes and other less common styles, like the Sport style of the Rivendale mindset.

I am not denigrating anyone's ti bicycle. I personally love the looks of round tubed, level TT frames, like my Extralight. But that bike is more than a decade old, and remains as good (and light) a ti frame as you can buy today. So while we don't need funny shaped tubes or whatever, it would be nice to see more evidence of evolution than what's "ultimate" on today's market.

I would like to see a "lugged" ti frame (without glue), monoquoce construction, greater use mixed finishes (etch, laser, polish, brush and paint) and heat coloration ("anodization"). And, of course, lower weights. I don't think the Ghisello (sp?) was all that durable, but wouldn't it be nice to see another sub 2 pound metal bike again?

I think part of carbon fiber trend is just the fact that there are so many different ways to make the bike look. Few of them are actually much better than the 25 year old Calfee Tetra design, but they look like they might be, and that creates interest and sells bikes. Lately, the only way I have of telling a Ti road frame of today from one produced in the mid-90s is if it is a compact or not.

[firerescuefin]

Everybody, please pardon my "posting style". I say the darnedest things when talked down to. :)

As to "innovation", that's always a big question mark. Many innovations frankly aren't. But Lynskey, Litespeed and Merlin offer a variety of tube shapings and aesthetic effects that few other makers bother with. The biggest would be the Helix tubing, which is essentially a riff on the rifled TSX concept. But polishing, laser etching, diamond tubing, logo dropouts, light weight are all things that you'll see from these companies. They also have been good about offering innovative mountain bikes and other less common styles, like the Sport style of the Rivendale mindset.

I am not denigrating anyone's ti bicycle. I personally love the looks of round tubed, level TT frames, like my Extralight. But that bike is more than a decade old, and remains as good (and light) a ti frame as you can buy today. So while we don't need funny shaped tubes or whatever, it would be nice to see more evidence of evolution than what's "ultimate" on today's market.

I would like to see a "lugged" ti frame (without glue), monoquoce construction, greater use mixed finishes (etch, laser, polish, brush and paint) and heat coloration ("anodization"). And, of course, lower weights. I don't think the Ghisello (sp?) was all that durable, but wouldn't it be nice to see another sub 2 pound metal bike again?

I think part of carbon fiber trend is just the fact that there are so many different ways to make the bike look. Few of them are actually much better than the 25 year old Calfee Tetra design, but they look like they might be, and that creates interest and sells bikes. Lately, the only way I have of telling a Ti road frame of today from one produced in the mid-90s is if it is a compact or not.


+1...Well stated

[BumbleBeeDave]

For those like me who haven't been following along lately:

What constitutes "exciting" to you, and what is Lnyskey doing that is exciting? and
What are Merlin and Litespeed doing that you consider innovative?

. . . I kinda had this same question. What exactly defines "exciting" and why no mention of Serotta? If Merlin has been making virtually the same bike for years and qualifies as "exciting", then Serotta--and certainly Moots--both qualify as even more "exciting" to me.

BBD

[Jeff N.]

What's MSRP on a Legend Ti now? Anyone know? Someone told me it's over 4K now. Is that true? Jeff N.

[Jeff N.]

NEVERMIND, just found out. $5195.00, F/F. Before tax, of course. Jeff N.

[firerescuefin]

Jeff...that qualifies as "less exciting"

It would be interesting to see the correlation between raw material costs and frame cost with both CF and Ti.

[Jeff N.]

Jeff...that qualifies as "less exciting"

It would be interesting to see the correlation between raw material costs and frame cost with both CF and Ti.That qualifies as.....
Cha-ching, badda-bing.

[William]

speaking of inovative Ti Companies, these rigs sure look interesting, i'd LOVE to get one one (vuelo velo):

http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Vuelo-Velo-12.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/vuelo-velo-oxford-st.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/campagBB@vuelodrome1.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Vuelo-Velo-1-and-Copenhagen-get-comfy-in-the-Bentley-Hotel-NY-NY1.jpg
http://vuelovelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Di2-Bike3-45x68.jpg


So, has any one here ever ridden one of these? I don't know about performance but I find the lines aesthetically pleasing.



William

[Pete Serotta]

Not all ti is the same nor does it cost the mft the same. That also holds true even more so with CARBON> There are MANY GRADES and ways to build it as well as many uses of the resin and carbon of a different make.


Please try the bike.....Earlier I listed Ti bikes that I have a big love for because the are better by my seat of the ass comparison. I also hear great things about IF and 7. Current Lightspeed/Lynsky is not even on my list of wanting to try it. Sorry to be that harsh but please give a few mfts a ride and decide.

Price, Weight, innovation is MARKETING FIRST - big question - does it equates in ride, handling, etc......?

Yeah I know I am older than dirt but that time has allowed me to see some wonderful ti bikes and they are the ones I listed and the other two that probably are on the list would be IF and SEVEN

[AndrewS]

The only thing I find "exciting" about Merlin anymore is the Cyrene, with the laser etched tubes. Otherwise, not much going on there.

As far as what I'd buy new, if I were shopping for a stock ti road frame - either the wackiest thing out there, like a Helix. Or I'd buy the absolute best quality frame for the dollar, which is probably an entry level Lynskey Cooper or Planet X Ti. All three are made by Lynskey, who's been doing this as long as anyone in the US.

And if I wanted a pretty custom Ti, I'd probably make the trip to the barn for a Spectrum with butted tubes. Or a Lynskey, again.

In a sport driven in large part by weightweeniehood, I don't understand the pricing by some makers, like Serotta, on their Ti bikes. For the dollar, Serotta Ti frames are the heaviest I can think of! I think a butted Spectrum is at least a grand cheaper than the Legend and can't be faulted for fit, geometry, build quality or performance. Titanium tubing has gotten really pricey lately, but Lynskey still manages to make impecable frames out of it for less than $1600 (or $1200 for the Planet X) a pop, so it can't be THAT expensive.

I guess I really don't understand the Ti marketplace. :confused: It's not like I'm comparing Chinese imports and Ericksons - I'm talking about one US 20+ year celebrated Ti builder vs. another, and nothing adds up.

[topher]

I think Merlin made a good effort a couple years ago with their CR and TR Works bikes, aiming at a younger, more racing oriented crowd - I have a 2008 CR Works, and love it.

I was sad to see it leave the Merlin lineup, and don't really understand why they took it out. From the specs I've seen, the new Extralight is basically the TR Works.

I don't know if that re-structuring of the lineup was a last gasp attempt at something, but I hope that Merlin can weather the storm.

In terms of innovative Ti, I'd add Baum to the top of my list, along with IF, Spectrum and Seven.

http://www.baumcycles.com/bikes/road_romano.html

Chris

[firerescuefin]

Good call on the Baums. I have seen some amazing finishes on his bikes. He seems to be a real craftsman.

[avalonracing]

I'm a fan of Ti. I've owned good steel, good aluminum and good Ti and overall I think that I'll stick with Ti when I'm paying out of pocket for it.

I loved my Legend Ti but right now I'm on a Merlin CR Works and it is once damn nice ride. It took me a bit to get over the look of a pretty aggressively sloping top tube but the ride is superlative. Stiff and smooth. What more can you say? Well actually, you can say that it handles great (confident descender) and it is pretty damn light for a metal frame.

I'd buy another. I would also buy another Ti Serotta. I am also tempted to try and Seven and an Eriksen. But now we are talking about $20K in bike purchases so I should just cool my jets.

It is a shame that ABG can get it together. With a little marketing help they could corner most of the US Ti bike business with their price/quality. Then again it took them a decade to get ride of that hideous yellow Litespeed logo.
As for the engraving on the Merlin headtube, BB and dropouts. Damn tasteful and super cool.

[1centaur]

If it's not said here, it does not exist. This is Serotta's pitch for why they are worth the money. If you do not value what Serotta is pitching here, then they are not worth the money to you. I suggest the marketing pitch line, "Not just custom, extremely fine custom." That video should be viewable on every Serotta dealer's website.

http://serotta.com/2010/8/36/Behind+the+Scenes+at+the+Serotta+Factory.html

[pbjbike]

The "Vuelo" bikes are a rip off of Black Sheep's aesthetic, (not design). And the setback on that fixie is ridiculous. Steve Bauer might like it tho... :beer:

[54ny77]

awesome video!

If it's not said here, it does not exist. This is Serotta's pitch for why they are worth the money. If you do not value what Serotta is pitching here, then they are not worth the money to you. I suggest the marketing pitch line, "Not just custom, extremely fine custom." That video should be viewable on every Serotta dealer's website.

http://serotta.com/2010/8/36/Behind+the+Scenes+at+the+Serotta+Factory.html

[tuxbailey]

Those Baums are pure hotness.

One day, maybe after my daughter graduates from college (20 years later) I can afford to buy a custom Spectrum or Seven Ti. But I think Tom Kellogg would probably have retired....

[slowandsteady]

[QUOTE=William...I don't know about performance but I find the lines aesthetically pleasing.William[/QUOTE]

+1
LOVE the lines on these things!

[AngryScientist]

+1
LOVE the lines on these things!

i think next year i may begin the process of having one built for me.

[veloduffer]

I have read that Ti is making a slow come back as a "new" material. Since so much focus has been on CF, it appears that many (non-builders) are not aware that Ti is a great material for bikes. It is being re-discovered by people previously unfamiliar with it. My Axiom Ti is 5 years old and looks like it did the day I picked it up.

Carbon fiber is the material du jour and will fade like once hot materials of titanium and aluminum did. What's next - magnesium?

If you like ti, you can get a used ti frame at very reasonable prices these days.

I've owned and own bikes of all the materials, including the early Giant Cadex and original Merlin Road from Cambridge amongst others. Fit and design trumps the type of material, IMHO. I have found that having a good custom builder that can fine tune the tubing to your riding and weight can make a vast difference in the ride qualities.

I'm lucky enough to have bikes custom for me by some of the best in the biz, even though I can fit most off the rack bikes. My rides these days are steel (Sachs) and titanium (Serotta, Kish), and have the ride qualities that I prefer (long wheelbase, low bb). They'll last forever and can be painted to be "refreshed".

[oldpotatoe]

My LBS has both Merlin and Litespeed. It is weird that their websites don't get updated.

There are only a handful of US titanium makers that are worth a damn, and none of them are doing anything partcularly exciting with their all Ti bikes compared to Litespeed and Merlin, IMO.

http://www.moots.com/#/product/bicycles/road_+_speciality/vamoots_rsl

Guess it doesn't have big decals and is all swoopy, other things on ti that do nothing but it is light, rides like a dream, weighs in the carbon range and will last much, much longer than any plastic frame. PLUS it can be built with Record for about the same $ as a Mevici frame and fork.

[jblande]

everyone that i have every met with a legend is loves it.

the same is true of moots.

[benb]

Ti frames that don't crack & fail can also be seen as "innovative" depending on your perspective.

"Boring" round tube frames from Serotta, Seven, Moots, IF, etc.. seem to have far fewer problems and can still be easily built up to be at the UCI weight limits.

[bobswire]

What's not to like in any of the American made Ti ?

My old Merlin and my recent acquisition Seven Axiom , both are terrific get up and go or all day rides.
Seven is just a bit stiffer and responsive but not by much.
Then again it could be a byproduct of how I have them built up.

[Pete Serotta]

Ti frames that don't crack & fail can also be seen as "innovative" depending on your perspective.

"Boring" round tube frames from Serotta, Seven, Moots, IF, etc.. seem to have far fewer problems and can still be easily built up to be at the UCI weight limits.
:beer: :beer: pete

[AndrewS]

Are you guys saying that there is something Moots and Serotta are doing to make a quality frame that David Lynskey isn't?????

I don't understand the comparisons. Oldpotatoe, Ben and Pete seem to be hinting that Lynskey, Merlin and Litespeeds are somehow fragile. :confused:

[bobswire]

Steel gets no respect.....
Those are sissy bikes, now here's a mans bike , in fact it could be used to start a foundation of a new building...

[Pete Serotta]

What's not to like in any of the American made Ti ?

My old Merlin and my recent acquisition Seven Axiom , both are terrific get up and go or all day rides.
Seven is just a bit stiffer and responsive but not by much.
Then again it could be a byproduct of how I have them built up.

AND GREAT LOGIC. PETE

[AngryScientist]

That re-bar bike is awesome. even i could be a custom frame maker with tubes like that!

[Pete Serotta]

yes, those are my opinions and I am not asking anyone to share them with me, but since I am older than dirt, I do not think they can be easily changed for they are based on "things" I have seen happen.


Sorry if it insulted anyone and it does not mean your bike is not faster nor lighter than mine.


PETE

[benb]

Are you guys saying that there is something Moots and Serotta are doing to make a quality frame that David Lynskey isn't?????

I don't understand the comparisons. Oldpotatoe, Ben and Pete seem to be hinting that Lynskey, Merlin and Litespeeds are somehow fragile. :confused:

Not saying anything about Lynskey's, I have yet to even see one on the road and I thought they were also making primarily round tube bikes until recently... can't say much about them.

But go google "cracked Ti bicycle" and look at the results.. you'll have a really hard time finding stories & pictures of cracked bikes made by the 4 companies I mentioned, but you will find a non-stop stream of people who have broken their Litespeeds, etc.. including lots of the 6/4 frames (harder to work on IIRC) and the crazy manipulated tubes.

Combine that with your own personal experience in your area if you have it.. do you know anyone who has caused these bikes to fail? I certainly do.

The crazy tube shapes IMHO are just marketing over engineering, they see the wild Carbon shapes that are the current trend and want something that is just as catchy to the eye on the sales floor. For me there is a subtle beauty in the more traditional frames that the crazy manipulated tubes just can't match. (I ride a Serotta but I'd actually say Moots is the epitome of a Ti bike that never goes out of style... I love that finish and wish I'd ordered my Serotta with it back when it was available.)

The weight differences are as always about the same as a swallow of water or an extra trip to the urinal.. they can all be built to the weight limits and I'd rather have the weight in the frame then in the components or ballast. (Not that I bothered to spend the money to build my bike that light.)

[AndrewS]

Strangely, the last broken Ti frame I've seen was a Legend. I do not draw any conclusions about that.

Highly manipulating any material runs the risk of it not working as well as tried and true. The only point I have been trying to make is that we could use some more forays out of "tried and true" to breath some life into the Ti industry.

I also believe that Ti has not already reached some fundemental engineering limit, despite its apparent senescence at many companies.

Hey, I'd ride a straight guage Ti bike to the end of time if it was the only option. But there are options, and they really aren't being pursued with any vigor. Instead we have a fair amount of self congratulations as companies meet the specifications of bikes produced 15 years ago. That's neither good nor bad, but it doesn't point to much of a future.

Steel recently got quite a bit lighter. I don't see why ti can't also move forward.

[malcolm]

I think all the builders mentioned in this thread probably build a great Ti bike and I doubt I could tell the difference blind folded. I've owned two legends one with a carbon rear and one all Ti and both were great. I've had a spectrum for several years now and really like it, I don't think it is any better than the serottas just more unusual. I suspect they all have some that have broken and you probably see more broken lightspeeds because, well I suspect there are more lightspeeds out there. Lightspeed has to be the most ubiquitous Ti bike I've ever seen. Here is a spectrum, that I think is kinda cool.

[1centaur]

"The crazy tube shapes IMHO are just marketing over engineering"

There's limited basis for that opinion, depending on how crazy we're talking. With FEA and all that can be done with computer modeling of layups and stress, it seems at least credible that the engineers involved believe they are doing something specific with the shapes. Otherwise, why bother modeling? It's not like we've heard stories about artist's concepts on marketable shapes that are then run through the computers to make sure they don't break. Knowing human nature, I'd guess that the ability of computers to change this and that and predict stresses has created the desire to do just that, but that if on the margin a shape looked hideous the marketing department might help broker a compromise.

[fourflys]

NEVERMIND, just found out. $5195.00, F/F. Before tax, of course. Jeff N.

WOW!!! I had no idea they were that much now... I just can't wrap my head around the price difference between the Legend and my $1500 Xicon f/f... sure, the fork is better on the Serotta and the tubes are probably sourced from in the US, but other than that they are both hand welded in the states and I'm not sure I could ever justify the price difference based on those facts along with the Legend being available in custom (which I don't need)... just curious, is there ANY other Ti f/f that even comes within $1k of the Legend? I think the Vamoots RSL is only around $3500...

I'm not trying to say the Legend is on the same level as my Xicon, just that it's a big price increase!

Oh and BTW- if you can afford and want the Legend, go for it and be happy! :D

[BengeBoy]

Bill Davidson of Seattle has been working in Titanium forever.

I don't know whether folks here would consider his designs "innovative" or not, but he's built some pretty interesting Ti bikes.

The guys at the Bike Hugger blog are big Davidson fans and from time to time you see them working on interesting projects with Davidson.

Here's some examples:

- A modern Ti racing bike, the Hotspur, with carbon seatstays:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/huggerindustries/sets/72157603720434389/

- The "modal" travel bike, which has S&S couplers and can switch between geared, SS, and fixed:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/huggerindustries/sets/72157602615895172/

- And, my favorite, a bike designed by one of their mechanics and built in-house, a BMX sized, Ti-frame, S&S-coupled, urban mini-velo, painted in Celeste (the mechanic is a big Bianchi fan):

http://bikehugger.com/2009/09/davidson-ss-bmx-armed-and-full.html

The other Ti bikes I've seen coming out of his shop include touring bikes, rando bikes, commuting bikes with Rohloff hubs, and a police bike he built as a demo for the Seattle police force.

Custom Ti frames start at $2,200.

[tuxbailey]

Bill Davidson of Seattle has been working in Titanium forever.

I don't know whether folks here would consider his designs "innovative" or not, but he's built some pretty interesting Ti bikes.

The guys at the Bike Hugger blog are big Davidson fans and from time to time you see them working on interesting projects with Davidson.

Here's some examples:

- A modern Ti racing bike, the Hotspur, with carbon seatstays:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/huggerindustries/sets/72157603720434389/

- The "modal" travel bike, which has S&S couplers and can switch between geared, SS, and fixed:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/huggerindustries/sets/72157602615895172/

- And, my favorite, a bike designed by one of their mechanics and built in-house, a BMX sized, Ti-frame, S&S-coupled, urban mini-velo, painted in Celeste (the mechanic is a big Bianchi fan):

http://bikehugger.com/2009/09/davidson-ss-bmx-armed-and-full.html

The other Ti bikes I've seen coming out of his shop include touring bikes, rando bikes, commuting bikes with Rohloff hubs, and a police bike he built as a demo for the Seattle police force.

Custom Ti frames start at $2,200.


That "Modal" bike is really interesting.

[dd74]

I have a technical question: can you guys who have had Ti frames with Ti seat stays and Ti frames with carbon seat stays, perceive any difference between the two seat stay materials?

Great thread by the way. Very informative.

[malcolm]

I have a technical question: can you guys who have had Ti frames with Ti seat stays and Ti frames with carbon seat stays, perceive any difference between the two seat stay materials?

Great thread by the way. Very informative.

It has been several years but I owned a full Ti legend and a legend with carbon rear as well as a hors catagorie all at the same time and all were basically built the same with the same wheels. I honestly don't think I could tell the legends apart, many will disagree and can feel a difference with the carbon rear. I'll add that I certainly don't have the princess and the pea thing going, I can't tell much difference between tires of a given volume either. I like the ride of conti gatorskins as much as any other 25mm clincher I've tried except maybe the vittoria open evo cx and I think most of that difference is that tire seems a little bigger.

I'll also add none of the three were built for me but all had stock geo and were the same size except the hors and it was a bit to small and I'm sad to say sold.

[Blue Jays]

Why wonderful titanium somehow became "unhip" is anyone's guess.
The ride is much like steel, yet different, and truly beautiful. It is lightweight while retaining tremendous strength.
Perhaps people didn't like the straightforward and very businesslike appearance of unpainted grayish-silver models?
All things considered, it it my favorite material. There will always be a titanium bicycle in my collection.

[tuxbailey]

The ride is much like steel, yet different, and truly beautiful. It is lightweight while retaining tremendous strength.



That is the exact reason why I set out to look for a Ti bike as my dream bike, without even riding a carbon bike.

And if the Merlin frame doesn't crack, it will likely stay me until I am not able to ride. Though it will surely go through a few iterations of change over time :)

[fourflys]

That is the exact reason why I set out to look for a Ti bike as my dream bike, without even riding a carbon bike.

And if the Merlin frame doesn't crack, it will likely stay me until I am not able to ride. Though it will surely go through a few iterations of change over time :)

I've never ridden carbon either and am really happy with my Ti... but, I know me and I know I'll get carbon one day... I'm pretty sure a Ti bike will always be in the garage though...

[jblande]

i have a serrota ti. it is incredibly well built. simple, but attractive. the machinists that i have come across have been very impressed by the quality of the welds.

it rides nothing like my carbon bike, but it is very good.

[AndrewS]

Aside from ride and relatively low weight, I think much of titanium's draw is that it may never wear out. This is largely true of aluminum, too (despite what you hear about fatigue), but aluminum's ride is mostly sub-par, which brings us back to Ti. My first Ti bike was a Litespeed MTB. I didn't think I'd get any special ride from a bike with 2 inch tires, but the Litespeed rep said "It will never break, never corode, the dropouts and derailleur hanger are pretty much industructible and we warranty it forever". 14 years later I'm still riding it and there's no wear on it I can't fix with scotchbrite. 4 ti road bikes followed - I kept the three that fit well.

So, part of the Ti question is whether people want a bike they'll never have reason to replace. I think a lot of people lately view everything as ultimately disposable.

[gdw]

"I think a lot of people lately view everything as ultimately disposable."

Unfortunately that's true. Too many people are easily seduced by glitz and marketing.

[benb]

Interesting to see how different people ended up with Ti.

I got to Ti after breaking 2 aluminum frames and trying a full CF frame and deciding I didn't like the ride. First Alu frame had corrosion damage + cracked chainstay, second one broke at the dropout end of a carbon seatstay. Neither one broke as a result of crashes.

This is only the 4th season on my Ti frame, but it hasn't broken yet.. which means it's already lasted longer then anything I had before it.

I don't want to own multiple bikes just so I have something to ride when one breaks. So I put reliability pretty high up my list since I've already broken two bikes.

I wish the whole damn bike could be as well made as Serotta's frame.. I really hate replacing components because they are "disposable design" too.

[Blue Jays]

The reason my favorite bicycle is of stout titanium is the same reason I don't opt for über-lightweight components.
My preference is for proven performance that reliably delivers when called upon and isn't moody.

[texbike]

As someone pointed out earlier, bicycles are essentially a "mature" design with only very small, incremental improvements available (mostly in components). There has been over 100 years of development invested in the basic design. How innovative can a bike be at this point?

I have a Moots Vamoots that has plain old, round, straight-gauge tubing. Nothing fancy. It isn't my best bike in any one specific area, but it is my best all around bike. It rides great!

That's innovative enough for me.

Texbike

[avalonracing]

Interesting to see how different people ended up with Ti.


As for me, I was on a nice steel Colorado II that I liked so much that I paid a fortune having it repainted. Soon after I say a deal on a Ti Legend that I just couldn't resist. I sold the Legend because I was seeing too many nice bikes smashed up next to me in crits and I had a sponsored team bike waiting for me.

Now that I'm back to paying retail for my bikes my nice road and MTBs are Ti and they'll probably stay that way even if I replace them.

[Jeff N.]

I've owned several Litespeed Ti frames over the years (Team Issue, Classic, Ultimate...none now) and although I've been happy with their looks and performance, they've always struck me as a company that's into the numbers: Produce, produce, produce. In their heyday, they probably welded up more frames by first coffee break than many companies do in a month or two. If a frame or two came back because it came undone, so what? Send out another! No big deal, no big loss. This is just the impression I got, anyway...I could be way off base here. Jeff N.

[Blue Jays]

Jeff N., what was the compelling reasons to sample three different Litespeed models?
Were you still drawn to them despite what you felt was their manufacturing process?

[Jeff N.]

Jeff N., what was the compelling reasons to sample three different Litespeed models?
Were you still drawn to them despite what you felt was their manufacturing process?
I'm an EBay junkie, man. It's an ongoing problem. If theres a good bike out there in my size, I'll try to go for it. :crap: I've owned several C'Dales too. Litespeed was the C'Dale of Ti frames. High output. Crank 'em out. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jack Brunk]

I guess I'm really lucky out of most here but I've enjoyed most all of the frames I've owned and that includes all the different frames that have been made out of all the materials mentioned. My favs have been the ones that have fit really well and made by good makers. One thing is for sure, I'd never want to be laid down(six feet under) and not having tried the other materials that a great frame is capable of being made from.
Sorry, I'm tired and dealing with wife's chemo today if my post doesn't make sense.

[AndrewS]

I think it would be a mistake to assume that volume means lower quality. Litespeed was born from an aerospace manufacturer, not a steel bike company that decided to get into Ti. I think they were already set up for volume, the public wanted them and their quality kept them going.

If Litespeed did anything "wrong" it was their willingness to push the envelope and try more techniques besides welding doctored hydraulic tubing. The flip side of that is that they got a number of things right before anyone else did, like machined English bottom brackets.

While it is easy to idolize the one man shop, bravely facing the world, volume can also be a sign of very high and consistant standards. I'd put Lynskey/old Litespeed's weld quality and alignment up against anyone's. They were doing ti welding before there were any reliable ti bicycles.

[Jeff N.]

When it come to weld quality, I have as yet to see any as good as Moots...simply the very best in the business. And you make perfect sense, Jack. Good luck. Jeff N.

[Jack Brunk]

Thanks Jeff.

[Blue Jays]

It appears the United States is also home for a majority of the finest titanium bicycle framebuilders.

[pbjbike]

I think it would be a mistake to assume that volume means lower quality. Litespeed was born from an aerospace manufacturer, not a steel bike company that decided to get into Ti. I think they were already set up for volume, the public wanted them and their quality kept them going.

If Litespeed did anything "wrong" it was their willingness to push the envelope and try more techniques besides welding doctored hydraulic tubing. The flip side of that is that they got a number of things right before anyone else did, like machined English bottom brackets.

While it is easy to idolize the one man shop, bravely facing the world, volume can also be a sign of very high and consistant standards. I'd put Lynskey/old Litespeed's weld quality and alignment up against anyone's. They were doing ti welding before there were any reliable ti bicycles.

I was there BITD, in Somerville, 1989 onward. With you on production versus one man quality, it can be done. :banana: We did incredible work on 50+ year old machine tools, and started from the ground up. I was the 6th employee there. Have you seen an early Litespeed or their early stems? Crap welds, that no self respecting defense contractor, (certainly no frame builder), would be proud of. They got much better, but never got it, (the aesthetic of bicycles). Merlin hired welders just off the General Dynamics ship yards in So Boston, who were recently laid-off. Right out of the box they were welding frames perfectly. Merlin was shipping Ti bikes 2 years before Litespeed. Check it.

Tom Kellog was the force in designing the road bikes, as was Joe Murray with MTB's. Sad to see the Merlin brand on the ropes with the rest of the holdings.

Both companies suffered from management decisions that had nothing to do with with the quality of finished goods. Neither were responsive to the changing marketplace or prevailing price-point as preferred materials changed.

[pbjbike]

Sorry, I'm tired and dealing with wife's chemo today if my post doesn't make sense.

Our prayers are with you and your wife, Jack.

Take Care

[AndrewS]

I wasn't able to check the first production dates for Litespeed, just that they went to their first bike trade show the same year Merlin (then Kestrel) did.

If they didn't start shipping until 2 years after Merlin, that would be '89. I bought a 1990 polished Classic a few years ago. They must have gotten good awful quick, because this '90 bike had beautiful welds.

As to whether they ever "got it" for aesthetics, the the mid-90s Classic I owned was a gorgeous bike with lines that are most similar to the Spectrum Ti's I've seen. But that's eye of the beholder.

Whether you like the Lynskey boys or not, their welds are great on every model I've ever seen, including all the Basso, Merckx, Lemond etc. they built. And they got the fittings right earlier than Merlin did - hence no press fit BBs that no one has tools for anymore. So scoffing at the other founding Ti builder seems a little unnecessary. All the Ti companies owe Litespeed a nod for helping start the 3/2.5 Ti era off right and popularizing Ti as a premium and reliable material for bicycles. I think David Lynskey continues to make an awesome contribution to the art, and at prices that are frankly embarrassing to some of the other builders who haven't been at it as long.

[Jack Brunk]

Our prayers are with you and your wife, Jack.

Take Care
Thank you my friend. I wasn't trying to use the reason but sometimes it is what it is. Life is bigger than riding and working and payng the bills. I've enjoyed a Love #3 as one of the best climbing bikes I've owned, a parlee Z3 that should be outlawed for how smooth and stiff and a Mapei team C40 that no one outside a team rider should own. I've been lucky. Now with the people I know, a network with hundreds of great people I'm lucky and so is my wife. I'm close to raising 100k for breast cancer and will. I'm close to raising 25k for MS(one of my closet friend's wife has the disease) that I demand most of all my friends to bring in the dollars for the cause. Everyone should do what they can do to help raise funds for the people who suffer. What about you?
PS.
Rowdy Riders will be the number one fundraising for the Santa Barbara MS ride with over 200K for the Oct 16th weekend.

JB

[Blue Jays]

"...Tom Kellogg was the force in designing the road bikes, as was Joe Murray with MTB's.
Sad to see the Merlin brand on the ropes with the rest of the holdings..."The true shining light for Merlin is their close affiliation with Tom Kellogg to help ensure everything stays fresh and relevant.

[dd74]

Well, my experience with Ti has been very nice. The problem is my Schwinn Paramount (Serotta built) has never fit properly -- too large -- which is why it's on eBay right now. But I wouldn't hesitate to get another Serotta Ti, especially for what I believe is said in the ad copy about the Classique Ti Ready Custom:

"A classic road bike in a classic road material...no frills, tough-as-nails, ultra-versatile."

What more can anyone want from one bicycle that looks as if it can also be raced?

[Jeff N.]

The true shining light for Merlin is their close affiliation with Tom Kellogg to help ensure everything stays fresh and relevant.
I was hoping Tom K. would've chimed in by now. Obviously he's too busy making fine bicycle frames to have much time to hang out on the Forum. Jeff N.

[Ray]

Being the happy owner of two Spectrum frames, I never fully understood why someone would buy a Merlin with stock geo that TK designed rather than get a custom Spectrum that TK designs FOR YOU at pretty close to the same prices? I guess if you need it right NOW and the shop has it in stock? And maybe the market for off the shelf retail bikes is just THAT different than the market for one-off customs and a lot of Merlin buyers don't know of Spectrum. But being aware of both, for a purchase of that size, why not plan far enough ahead to get it done just exactly right?

-Ray

[oldpotatoe]

Steel recently got quite a bit lighter. I don't see why ti can't also move forward.[/QUOTE]

So, lighter is automatically 'better' I guess. Lighter isn't better, just lighter. Unfortunately, the only 2 things you can measure is a bike shop is weight and price. Lighter, more expensive, gotta be better, right? Not necessarily. 15 pounds has become some sort of 'standard', I didn't think the UCI had that much influence but I guess they do..again...lighter=better according to the marketeers. But for a standard USA 'enthusiast', most could easily loose a SBW(Standard Bike Weight=20 pounds), so lots of $ for 200-400 grams seems silly to me. The object of the ride is the ride, not the bike. So many are obsessed with the gadgets or light weight gizmo of the day.

I would rather ride a bike I love to ride than a 15 pound asspounder, not that all 15 pound bikes are asspounders but a lot of uberlight carbon is..along with silliness like aluminum spokes in the wheels. Is there a 15 pound bike out there that would ride as well as my Merckx, Ciocc, Moots or stainless Waterford? Maybe but as long as I'm a .1 offa ton it really doesn't matter..

Off soapbox....

[tuxbailey]

Being the happy owner of two Spectrum frames, I never fully understood why someone would buy a Merlin with stock geo that TK designed rather than get a custom Spectrum that TK designs FOR YOU at pretty close to the same prices? I guess if you need it right NOW and the shop has it in stock? And maybe the market for off the shelf retail bikes is just THAT different than the market for one-off customs and a lot of Merlin buyers don't know of Spectrum. But being aware of both, for a purchase of that size, why not plan far enough ahead to get it done just exactly right?

-Ray

Well I got it used, so beggars can't be choosers :(

What I REALLY wanted was a custom Seven...

[AngryScientist]

Being the happy owner of two Spectrum frames, I never fully understood why someone would buy a Merlin with stock geo that TK designed rather than get a custom Spectrum that TK designs FOR YOU at pretty close to the same prices? I guess if you need it right NOW and the shop has it in stock? And maybe the market for off the shelf retail bikes is just THAT different than the market for one-off customs and a lot of Merlin buyers don't know of Spectrum. But being aware of both, for a purchase of that size, why not plan far enough ahead to get it done just exactly right?

-Ray

i got mine used too, but i'll also say that although i'm pretty short, i dont have any odd bike fitting issues, i have a few different bikes, all of different nominal off-the-shelf (OTS) sizes, and i have no problem replicating my fit on all of them. stock bikes work just fine for me, and though custom might be a nice luxury, it most likely would just wind up with geometry that i could get from an OTS frame anyway.

[Bob Ross]

The reason my favorite bicycle is of stout titanium is the same reason I don't opt for über-lightweight components.
My preference is for proven performance that reliably delivers when called upon and isn't moody.


Are there frame materials that are moody?

[malcolm]

Jack,
post a link to your upcoming charity events or pm me access details. The best to you and yours. I'll be sending out good vibes.
Malcolm

[Jeff N.]

Merlin had a custom program for a long time. That's probably vanished by now, of course. Jeff N.

[tuxbailey]

Merlin had a custom program for a long time. That's probably vanished by now, of course. Jeff N.


Well they still have the info online, FWIW.

http://www.merlinbike.com/inner.aspx?content=DE-custom

[Pete Serotta]

With the advent of the sloping top tube over the past years and the "generics" of many of the stock frames in terms of tubing composition, especially carbon layup and their angles, The only variable is effective top tube length for many brand models.

This is not good or bad but just the way it is. I have used custom Serottas for years (but that I am sure is not a shock to you)

But at Ride the Rockies,when my ti met a trailer being backed up - I switched to a Parlee Z5. It was adjusted for me and worked very well for that but then I am pretty adaptable and in size am in the middle of the "norm". WHich ride do I prefer :confused: :confused: Yeah I will not go there

Custom has a need for many in the following areas

- Ride performance
- Head tube length so that you have a higher set of bars without non standard
looking stems
- Personal ride characteristics
- Tubing selection and angels to affect ride and performance desires

And the knowledge of the fitter and builder to get the frame AS YOU DESIRE and not as Sales and Marketing want. :D :D

PETE


i got mine used too, but i'll also say that although i'm pretty short, i dont have any odd bike fitting issues, i have a few different bikes, all of different nominal off-the-shelf (OTS) sizes, and i have no problem replicating my fit on all of them. stock bikes work just fine for me, and though custom might be a nice luxury, it most likely would just wind up with geometry that i could get from an OTS frame anyway.

[AngryScientist]

With the advent of the sloping top tube over the past years and the "generics" of many of the stock frames in terms of tubing composition, especially carbon layup and their angles, The only variable is effective top tube length for many brand models.

This is not good or bad but just the way it is. I have used custom Serottas for years (but that I am sure is not a shock to you)

But at Ride the Rockies,when my ti met a trailer being backed up - I switched to a Parlee Z5. It was adjusted for me and worked very well for that but then I am pretty adaptable and in size am in the middle of the "norm". WHich ride do I prefer :confused: :confused: Yeah I will not go there

Custom has a need for many in the following areas

- Ride performance
- Head tube length so that you have a higher set of bars without non standard
looking stems
- Personal ride characteristics
- Tubing selection and angels to affect ride and performance desires

And the knowledge of the fitter and builder to get the frame AS YOU DESIRE and not as Sales and Marketing want. :D :D

PETE

i cant argue with any of that.

[RADaines]

i got mine used too, but i'll also say that although i'm pretty short, i dont have any odd bike fitting issues, i have a few different bikes, all of different nominal off-the-shelf (OTS) sizes, and i have no problem replicating my fit on all of them. stock bikes work just fine for me, and though custom might be a nice luxury, it most likely would just wind up with geometry that i could get from an OTS frame anyway.

Based upon the above, the only potential benefit that you might gain from a custom is ride characteristic. I don't think that people buy custom just because it is custom, there really is no point. There must be some benefit to going custom. You are lucky that you have no fit issues, you can go out and buy just about any bike you want, including used ones. I wish I could do the same, but then I do save money not buying bikes on a whim. :)

[benb]

- Tubing selection and angels to affect ride and performance desires


Really the Angels are the best reason to get a custom bike.. the ones Serotta put in my custom frame have done a great job. They really make the bike "fly" up climbs and so far they've been able to keep cars from hitting me. ;)

[PaMtbRider]

I would agree that at the same price point a Spectrum makes more sense than a Merlin. My wife loves her Spectrum and although she doesn't "need" custom the smile it puts on her face is well worth the price. I think the reality though is if a person fits a stock bike, with a little shopping, a N.O.S. Merlin frame can be had for almost half the price of a Spectrum.

Being the happy owner of two Spectrum frames, I never fully understood why someone would buy a Merlin with stock geo that TK designed rather than get a custom Spectrum that TK designs FOR YOU at pretty close to the same prices? I guess if you need it right NOW and the shop has it in stock? And maybe the market for off the shelf retail bikes is just THAT different than the market for one-off customs and a lot of Merlin buyers don't know of Spectrum. But being aware of both, for a purchase of that size, why not plan far enough ahead to get it done just exactly right?

-Ray

[Pete Serotta]

I would agree that at the same price point a Spectrum makes more sense than a Merlin. My wife loves her Spectrum and although she doesn't "need" custom the smile it puts on her face is well worth the price. I think the reality though is if a person fits a stock bike, with a little shopping, a N.O.S. Merlin frame can be had for almost half the price of a Spectrum.

and great fitting and warranty from Sir Kellogg!!!!

[firerescuefin]

For those that don't have custom...yes the benefits are small nuances (in many cases), but they all add up....and when you try it on (when it was done correctly)...you go.."Oh, that's what they are talking about". If you have ever had a custom tailored suit (even if you can wear off the rack and look good)...you know what I am talking about.

[Ray]

I would agree that at the same price point a Spectrum makes more sense than a Merlin. My wife loves her Spectrum and although she doesn't "need" custom the smile it puts on her face is well worth the price. I think the reality though is if a person fits a stock bike, with a little shopping, a N.O.S. Merlin frame can be had for almost half the price of a Spectrum.
I know you're right and lots of fine bikes can be had for less than a custom Spectrum. Even though one of Tom's customs is less than a lot of bikes out there today, my two are still the most expensive bikes I've ever bought.

And the LEAST expensive at the same time.

Because before those, I was always buying and selling frames. I "fit" on a lot of frames, but until Tom listened to what I liked and didn't like about a couple of other bikes I'd ridden, and heard me explain how I liked a bike to handle (to the extent I could articulate it), and looked at me pedal a bike for a while as he took a few measurements and notes, I was never fully satisfied with any of them. So I kept trying different options. These costs add up.

Within minutes of throwing a leg over my first Spectrum I knew I was done with that. All of the little design decisions just worked together perfectly. Its been almost six years now and the only other road bike I've bought since was my second Spectrum, which is just a bit more laid back and stable, more fenderable, more fat-tireable, and built with S&S couplers for travel. And the fact that I haven't bought another bike or even really seriously considered it since has saved me all SORTs of money. And I'll never say never but I'd frankly be very surprised if I ever buy another road bike. I don't care about the latest and greatest - never really did through all of that hunting. And these bikes just feel so incredibly right every time I ride one that I just can't imagine why I'd ever want another, short of damaging one of these beyond repair.

So it was a budgetary move! I tried to convince my wife that it could work out that way at the time. She was dubious and so was I - I was just making a case - until I rode it. And then I realized I was right and now she realizes it too. I spend almost nothing on bikes anymore. The occasional tires, chains, cassettes - last year some new wheels, but nearly nothing in comparison to what I used to spend.

-Ray

[dimsy]

fellow merlin owner here, the one in my sig is an 02. i used to lust after merlin in the mid 90's when i was only a teenager. I vowed i would one day own one, always thought it'd be a mountainbike, but since i made the move to road it only seems logical.

[Tom Kellogg]

Sorry I have been missing all of this discussion. Just too little time for me to lurk around the forums that might have discussions that I might be interested in or that I may be able to help with. I do wish that I had more time since I think that I can occasionally be of help ...

Yes, Merlin and Litespeed still exist and still continue to make frames. However time and markets change, and both companies have changed as well. Both brands still produce Ti frames, but most of Litespeed's units are now composite. They had sold out of their '10 composite production about the same time that they started shipping them. Merlin's strongest sales areas are now in Europe and the far east. Sounds odd, but the US just doesn't absorb very many Ti frames any more. If you want one, your dealer can still order and get them in any case.

How has this effected us here at Spectrum? Not very much over the last few years. Back in the early Ti days, we were selling five a week, but we have been in the range of about 35 - 45 a year for many years now.

I am still Merlin's road design guy, but because of market changes and Merlin's traditional approach to tradition (and mine as well) I have not been called on to design a new model for a couple of years now. It seems that Merlin customers don't see much reason to ask me to fix what ain't broken. Since Merlin has never had much interest in tube shapes, fads and trends, we just haven't had reason for any "new and improved" features. The only (slight) departure from that Merlin tradition was the CR frame from six years ago. The tube work that made the CR different was quickly incorporated into the Extralight and the CR went away.

So it really does come down to "if it ain't broke ..." There are still enough who appreciate what we (Merlin and I) do, but what we do is no longer "hot" enough to put money into big marketing. The Ti frame market is just too small to support significant marketing dollars. Just the way it is.

Now, back to work getting these Ti frames out the door.

[tuxbailey]

Sorry I have been missing all of this discussion. Just too little time for me to lurk around the forums that might have discussions that I might be interested in or that I may be able to help with. I do wish that I had more time since I think that I can occasionally be of help ...

Yes, Merlin and Litespeed still exist and still continue to make frames. However time and markets change, and both companies have changed as well. Both brands still produce Ti frames, but most of Litespeed's units are now composite. They had sold out of their '10 composite production about the same time that they started shipping them. Merlin's strongest sales areas are now in Europe and the far east. Sounds odd, but the US just doesn't absorb very many Ti frames any more. If you want one, your dealer can still order and get them in any case.

How has this effected us here at Spectrum? Not very much over the last few years. Back in the early Ti days, we were selling five a week, but we have been in the range of about 35 - 45 a year for many years now.

I am still Merlin's road design guy, but because of market changes and Merlin's traditional approach to tradition (and mine as well) I have not been called on to design a new model for a couple of years now. It seems that Merlin customers don't see much reason to ask me to fix what ain't broken. Since Merlin has never had much interest in tube shapes, fads and trends, we just haven't had reason for any "new and improved" features. The only (slight) departure from that Merlin tradition was the CR frame from six years ago. The tube work that made the CR different was quickly incorporated into the Extralight and the CR went away.

So it really does come down to "if it ain't broke ..." There are still enough who appreciate what we (Merlin and I) do, but what we do is no longer "hot" enough to put money into big marketing. The Ti frame market is just too small to support significant marketing dollars. Just the way it is.

Now, back to work getting these Ti frames out the door.

Tom, thank you for the in depth response to my questions.

[Pete Serotta]

Thanks Tom for taking the time to share knowledge with us

Tom Kellogg
Spectrum Cycles, inc.
FRAMEBUILDERS COLLECTIVE


Folks if you are in the market, Tom is 2nd to none.... :) :)


PETE


see you in late fall in PA

[AngryScientist]

definitely a big thanks to Tom for stopping in and giving us the first hand knowledge. of course it sounds corny, but it really is an honor to be part of a forum where world class experts drop by and take the time to chat with us all. :beer:

[Jeff N.]

I knew he'd eventually chime in. Thanks, Tom! But do me a favor and tell someone at Merlin that it'd be in their best interests to at least update their website. Jeff N.

[Tom Kellogg]

... do me a favor and tell someone at Merlin that it'd be in their best interests to at least update their website. Jeff N.

Don't get me started. My "power" such as it is, is limited to bicycle design decisions.

[MadRocketSci]

hope the quality doesn't start going downhill with the marketing budget....

[BengeBoy]

And the fact that I haven't bought another bike or even really seriously considered it since has saved me all SORTs of money...So it was a budgetary move!

Gotta start rehearsing that line to use at home: "It was a budgetary move."

New wheelset?
"It was a budgetary move -- keeps me from needing a new bike."

New rain bike?
"It was a budgetary move -- keeps me from wearing out my summer bike."

...and so on...

[Jeff N.]

Don't get me started. My "power" such as it is, is limited to bicycle design decisions.Don't step on toes. OK, I can diggit. Jeff N.

[pbjbike]

I wasn't able to check the first production dates for Litespeed, just that they went to their first bike trade show the same year Merlin (then Kestrel) did.

If they didn't start shipping until 2 years after Merlin, that would be '89. I bought a 1990 polished Classic a few years ago. They must have gotten good awful quick, because this '90 bike had beautiful welds.

As to whether they ever "got it" for aesthetics, the the mid-90s Classic I owned was a gorgeous bike with lines that are most similar to the Spectrum Ti's I've seen. But that's eye of the beholder.

Whether you like the Lynskey boys or not, their welds are great on every model I've ever seen, including all the Basso, Merckx, Lemond etc. they built. And they got the fittings right earlier than Merlin did - hence no press fit BBs that no one has tools for anymore. So scoffing at the other founding Ti builder seems a little unnecessary. All the Ti companies owe Litespeed a nod for helping start the 3/2.5 Ti era off right and popularizing Ti as a premium and reliable material for bicycles. I think David Lynskey continues to make an awesome contribution to the art, and at prices that are frankly embarrassing to some of the other builders who haven't been at it as long.

Who was first with production Ti? Speedwell, back in the 60's, then Teledyne in the 70's. [BTW, First with carbon: Exxon Graftek, 1975]. There were other Ti frame builders in the mid-90's, including Sandvik, a tubing manufacturer/defense contractor who built the Merckx frames. As for the press-fit BB's, we need to take the Way-Back machine on a little trip...

Mid-Late 80's--It was the end of the Cold War. Ti was still considered a strategic resource. The smallest quantity of tube variation a company could buy was 1,000 feet of any given diameter or wall thickness. At 20.00-25.00 per foot, to build a complete bike with .035 1 1/4" main tubes and 3/4" .035 stays, and 1 1/4" head tube/BB schedule 40 stock would cost $60-75k. Obviously, one could build 100+ bikes with that much material, but that's what it took to get started. And that is why the press fit BB was used, as it was the same stock as the head tube. It would have cost another $20-25K in stock to make a threaded BB... CNC machine tool technology was in its infancy, (and very dear cost-wise), and that's what was needed to make the threaded Ti BB a reality.

Big kudos to Gary Helfrich, who was a welder at Fat City and built the first U.S. made Ti frame back in 1987. Fat City passed on the idea of Ti as a frame material, and Merlin was born in an old factory next to FC. Gary and Mike Augsberger, a machinist and frame builder at Fat, came on board as did Gwynn Jones as CFO.

Ancotech made the first individual Ti tubesets available to small builders around 1993, which helped foster the production of Ti frames by smaller companies.

Lynskey was and is a major player in the business. My comments were not meant to take anything away from his work or prominence with the development of Ti as a frame material. It's too bad he sold Litespeed, as I think it would be a much different entity had he retained ownership. It's good to see his frames selling.

U.S. made Ti frames will be around longer than any of us or our immediate descendants. It will come around again as a favored material in the bike world.

:beer:

[AndrewS]

Big cudos to Gary Helfrich, who was a welder at Fat City and built the first U.S. made Ti frame back in 1987.

"In 1986 the family was encouraged to show off a couple of their creations at the Long Beach, CA bike show and eventually they traveled with a few frames on their back to California."


Lynskey family, that is. (http://www.litespeed.com/2006/history.aspx) So is it Gary Helfrich, or a Lynskey who made the first US 3/2.5 frame? (I'm assuming Teledyne still counts as first US made Ti frame.)

[pbjbike]

"In 1986 the family was encouraged to show off a couple of their creations at the Long Beach, CA bike show and eventually they traveled with a few frames on their back to California."


Lynskey family, that is. (http://www.litespeed.com/2006/history.aspx) So is it Gary Helfrich, or a Lynskey who made the first US 3/2.5 frame? (I'm assuming Teledyne still counts as first US made Ti frame.)

Just trying to give some perspective to what was going on BITD. We were talking about production frames shipped, not first built, or shows attended with prototypes... I'll leave it up to you to track down exact dates, as you really seem to need this. Keep us posted on your findings.

Take Care

[tuxbailey]

This is very educational. Thank you all for the insights.

Carbon may be nice and it could even be better in the future.

But as a recreational cyclist, my Extralight should give me the pleasure of riding for years to come.

[AndrewS]

"Need this." :rolleyes:

I'm just looking for the history, you know; BITD. Teledyne was the first US ti bike. Merlin shipped the first successful ti bikes. Someone at Merlin or someone named Lynskey built the first 3/2.5 bikes.

I guess you're not supposed to ask question of those who have BTDT BITD. Sorry.

[Pete Serotta]

Based on all these posts in a thread the topic usually evolves to many aspects and folks work on sharing their knowledge.

AndrewS was being helpful, no reason to "jump on him". Please.


THANKS PETE

[Ray]

Gotta start rehearsing that line to use at home: "It was a budgetary move."

New wheelset?
"It was a budgetary move -- keeps me from needing a new bike."

New rain bike?
"It was a budgetary move -- keeps me from wearing out my summer bike."

...and so on...
Right, I used it waaaay before it was true. The funny thing is, with the Spectrum customs, it turned out to be true - extra added bonus!

-Ray

[allenwhy]

Hello!

Broused the 9 pages of this thread I could not find he answer: can one thread a press fit bb shell?

Thanks in advance!

[Liberace]

Hello!

Broused the 9 pages of this thread I could not find he answer: can one thread a press fit bb shell?

Thanks in advance!


No. The diameter is completely different.

[allenwhy]

thought maybe it was euro sizing or something... :(

[Aaron O]

Hello!

Broused the 9 pages of this thread I could not find he answer: can one thread a press fit bb shell?

Thanks in advance!

I also have a Merlin with the press in BB...a 1991. It would cost around a grand to have the BB shell replaced and it's just not worth it to me. Other than the BB, I uterrly LOVE that bike.