italian threads

[thendenjeck]

anyone got advice for keeping an italian threaded BB in place? any luck with loctite?

[alexstar]

Always loctite, never a problem in thousands of miles.

[regularguy412]

Might also try teflon tape on the threads, if you're not keen on Loctite.

Mike in AR:beer:

[merlincustom1]

Ditto Locktite, the blue one, I think 242 or something.

[thwart]

Yeah... just thank g*d pedals are not threaded this way. :D

Last year after I built up my Pegoretti the driveside cup would start to unthread about halfway through a ride. A little extra grease around the UT bearings, and a bit of Loctite on the cup threads (and a nice warm halogen lamp to cure it) took care of the problem.

[TMB]

I always use teflon tape.

They never come loose, until you want them to.

[TAW]

Blue loctite. Funny/true story. I bought my first Colnago and decided the night before a race (stupid idea) to put a new crank on. Didn't loctite it. During the warm-up, my front starts to shift funny, so about 15 minutes before the race, I decide to take it to my truck and see what's wrong. Check the cable tension, and try to shift back and forth and finally discover that my drive side bottom bracket is unscrewed about 4 mm. Fortunately I always take tools, so I crank it down. During the race, I'm watching as it slowly is coming undone again. Finished the race with the bottom bracket out about 4mm again. This was in the days before outboard bearings. Good times.

[thendenjeck]

yeah, if I ride from brooklyn to manhattan the cup comes out about 4mm, which is awesome, because I have to take the crank armoff to tighten it. So I have to carry a crank puller and splined bb tool everywhere I go. Loctite please save me

[Louis]

Milan Fashion Week

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Milan+Fashion+Week+Gucci+Fashion+Show+na67rGxp3I1l .jpg

[thendenjeck]

yeah that was kind of the joke ;)

[oldpotatoe]

anyone got advice for keeping an italian threaded BB in place? any luck with loctite?

Prep the frame, tighten to torque(TIGHT) with grease and teflon tape on the threads. I have been riding bicycles with the far superior Italiano threading for years(Merckx, DeRosa, Ciocc) and have never had a RH cup come unscrewed. Loctite and it may bond in there, never to come out again. Just saw a Bianchi like this.

[buldogge]

Grease and teflon tape???

-Mark in St. Louis

Prep the frame, tighten to torque(TIGHT) with grease and teflon tape on the threads. I have been riding bicycles with the far superior Italiano threading for years(Merckx, DeRosa, Ciocc) and have never had a RH cup come unscrewed. Loctite and it may bond in there, never to come out again. Just saw a Bianchi like this.

[dave thompson]

Grease and teflon tape???

-Mark in St. Louis
Yup. Works for me in all my bikes. No loose bottom brackets, ever.

[Sam in VA]

How does the teflon tape work? I always though of it as a thread lubricant/sealer, not a locker.

The only times I've ever had to call for a ride (twice) were because of an Italian BB unthreading, so I've resorted to blue locktite on clean and degreased threads. Yes, it is a bear to get off, teflon tape would be much better if it does the trick.

[regularguy412]

How does the teflon tape work? I always though of it as a thread lubricant/sealer, not a locker.

The only times I've ever had to call for a ride (twice) were because of an Italian BB unthreading, so I've resorted to blue locktite on clean and degreased threads. Yes, it is a bear to get off, teflon tape would be much better if it does the trick.


<- Not a mechanical engineer nor do I play one on TV.

Seems to me, that the tape takes up any extra space between the threads on the bb lockring and the threads in the bb shell. Kind of like a wedge. The good part is: it's made of teflon, so it more easily removed later. Doesn't stick to the threads, it just uses pressure to hold everything more securely in place.

I've only had to use the tape on bbs that I put in my old Cannondales. The Phil Wood bbs that I put in my Serottas have never needed anything but a little anti-seize and they've never ever come loose.

Mike in AR:beer:

[shiftyfixedgear]

Teflon tape is not a thread lock. Not at all.

Whatever it does, it does not work as Loctite does.

Loctite in the lower grades of #222 (purple) and blue #242 are fairly mild in strength. They do NOT permanently glue things in place, they only make it slightly harder to remove the threaded assembly. They are easily heated up to the softening temperature (@200-250 degrees) with a heat gun, soldering iron, or a propane torch - but that is rarely ever necessary IME. At worst you need to use a slightly longer wrench for additional leverage during removal. Or slightly more effort with your existing tools.

Italian threaded BB's are such a BS design. If you have the misfortune of having a frame with this dumb design then learn about how threadlockers work - go to the Loctite or Devcon websites. With a little bit of care during assembly AND loctite you CAN have a trouble-free Italian BB. I have NOT seen that with other 1/2 assed approaches. And there isn't much worse than having a customer bring back their new Italian bike when the bb starts to unscrew on their first long ride, miles from anywhere.

Save the teflon tape for plumbing - where it belongs.

I started wrenching in bike shops back in the late 1970's.
Back then I used to hear old-time mechanics grumble that loctite wasn't necessary. Same thing for torque wrenches. Now, after many years of fixing bikes and fitness equipment and other things - and talking with and seeing how other mechanics work on actual "real" mechanical equipment (in contrast to bicycles) - well, now when I hear people eschew threadlockers and torque wrenches and such, I immediately think that there is a truly ignorant or misinformed mechanic.

Just my two cents . . . But if it doesn't hurt anything, why NOT use a threadlock ? The stuff also keeps moisture out and therefore can prevent corrosion.

[buldogge]

I'm not doubting you...but...it's odd.
If you have teflon, why would you then need grease??

BTW...The Campy UT cup instructions include the use of Loctite purple, do they not???

-Mark in St. Louis


Yup. Works for me in all my bikes. No loose bottom brackets, ever.

[rustychisel]

Teflon tape is not a thread lock. Not at all.

Whatever it does, it does not work as Loctite does.

Loctite in the lower grades of #222 (purple) and blue #242 are fairly mild in strength. .... well, now when I hear people eschew threadlockers and torque wrenches and such, I immediately think that there is a truly ignorant or misinformed mechanic.
.



Mostly this, but I believe that Loctite et al are bad solutions for bad engineering, which of course is where Italian BBs come in to the reckoning. They're just bad engineering looking for an average solution, so maybe Loctite is an answer in this instance.

Incidentally, the teflon plumbing tape we have around here turns into mush when confronted with even a small amount of grease; I dunno what stuff you folks in the US have which allows you to combine the two. Usually I'm a fan of good grease and correct torque, but currently having issues with Record square taper BB and Daccordi Race Fiber1 frame (yep, Italian BB).

[TMB]

Teflon tape is not a thread lock. Not at all.

Whatever it does, it does not work as Loctite does.

Loctite in the lower grades of #222 (purple) and blue #242 are fairly mild in strength. They do NOT permanently glue things in place, they only make it slightly harder to remove the threaded assembly. They are easily heated up to the softening temperature (@200-250 degrees) with a heat gun, soldering iron, or a propane torch - but that is rarely ever necessary IME. At worst you need to use a slightly longer wrench for additional leverage during removal. Or slightly more effort with your existing tools.

Italian threaded BB's are such a BS design. If you have the misfortune of having a frame with this dumb design then learn about how threadlockers work - go to the Loctite or Devcon websites. With a little bit of care during assembly AND loctite you CAN have a trouble-free Italian BB. I have NOT seen that with other 1/2 assed approaches. And there isn't much worse than having a customer bring back their new Italian bike when the bb starts to unscrew on their first long ride, miles from anywhere.

Save the teflon tape for plumbing - where it belongs.

I started wrenching in bike shops back in the late 1970's.
Back then I used to hear old-time mechanics grumble that loctite wasn't necessary. Same thing for torque wrenches. Now, after many years of fixing bikes and fitness equipment and other things - and talking with and seeing how other mechanics work on actual "real" mechanical equipment (in contrast to bicycles) - well, now when I hear people eschew threadlockers and torque wrenches and such, I immediately think that there is a truly ignorant or misinformed mechanic.

Just my two cents . . . But if it doesn't hurt anything, why NOT use a threadlock ? The stuff also keeps moisture out and therefore can prevent corrosion.

Had I only known all these years that I was doing it wrong.

Thank you so much for showing me the error of my ways.

I can sleep tonight now.





I always use grease and Teflon Tape.

[rustychisel]

TMB, we cross posted.... let me ask specifically, doesn't grease turn your plumbers tape into mush?

[TMB]

TMB, we cross posted.... let me ask specifically, doesn't grease turn your plumbers tape into mush?


No, not at all.

Never had a problem that way.


I use the white for bike stuff, works fine.

[AndrewS]

The point in using grease on threads is to prevent corrosion and seized parts. That is the problem some people have with using loctite - it doesn't combine well with grease, and it doesn't coat like grease, either. So it may leave areas of the thread exposed to corrosion with the frame.

Loctite is just gummy stuff that fills the space in the threads without sticking as well as paint does. People commonly use small amounts of paint to do the same thing, but too much acts like glue.

Teflon tape is designed to actively fill the space in threads to make them fit tightly and remain waterproof. But really, it is just another gooey substance that fills the threads and makes them hard to turn - which is all loctite does, too.

Sheldon Brown would probably also tell you to try beeswax. It acts a little like grease, and a little like linseed oil, remaining gooey over time.

All any of these substances do is prevent that tiny initial movement that leads to the part threading itself out. If they accomplish that, they solved the problem. Staking works, too, but I don't want to scare anyone by describing that.



I am always leery of any saying "there is only one PROFESSIONAL way of doing it". If teflon tape and grease work, I'd be far more interested in using them than loctite, simply because they'll prevent seizure better. If I was working in a shop on someone else's bike, maybe I would have different concerns.

[dave thompson]

I'm not doubting you...but...it's odd.
If you have teflon, why would you then need grease??

BTW...The Campy UT cup instructions include the use of Loctite purple, do they not???

-Mark in St. Louis
The grease is for corrosion prevention while the teflon tape works however it works to hold the threads in place. I don't really know how it all works together but I did my wife's Calfee, which uses an Italian threaded bottom bracket, this way back in 2001. I totally overhauled her bike just this last winter, installing all new components as a 'Christmas present' and her bottom bracket wasn't loose or stuck. All this after 9 years and maybe close to 15,000 miles. Every bike I build is also done using the grease and teflon tape method. I've never had a noisy or loose bottom bracket.

The above is the sum total of my anecdotal evidence.

[oldpotatoe]

Grease and teflon tape???

-Mark in St. Louis

Yep, been doing that for decades, but the most important thing in prepping the BB shell.

[oldpotatoe]

Had I only known all these years that I was doing it wrong.

Thank you so much for showing me the error of my ways.

I can sleep tonight now.





I always use grease and Teflon Tape.

Me too..lots of ways to make the RH BB cup stay tight. I have had to cut out too many BB cups because they had loctite on them corroded and then were bonded in there.

BS design or not, they are out there and they need to be addressed in a way that keeps the RH cup in there. Grease, frame prep, teflon tape has worked for me for 25 years, think I'll leave the loctite for FSA cranks and downtube friction shifters, thanks.

[sw3759]

Ok,so what is the normal procedure that you all use for this application?grease to the frame and tape on the threads?that would be my guess but i have to ask.
thanks,

Scott

[oldpotatoe]

Ok,so what is the normal procedure that you all use for this application?grease to the frame and tape on the threads?that would be my guess but i have to ask.
thanks,

Scott

Yep, grease in the BB shell and wrap teflon tape on the BB cup threads, install, tight, go ride.

[Sam in VA]

I know from experience that the white teflon tape doesn't play well with gasoline. I bought some "yellow" from my local Hardware store that is made for, among other things, petroleum products to fix that problem. I imagine its most frequent use is for natural gas/propane piping. Its a bit thicker than the white to boot. I'll try that when I get the urge to go into my Italian BBs.

[michael white]

My italian bottom brackets are suspiciously problem-free, although I do remember some bbs coming loose long ago. I think I might use a little loctite, but really, this is all so not a big deal.

[TAW]

think I'll leave the loctite for FSA cranks and downtube friction shifters, thanks.

There are lots of bike parts that have loctite on factory bolts.

[oldpotatoe]

There are lots of bike parts that have loctite on factory bolts.

Gotta wonder why since loctite will say use it while it's still wet. Dry loctite on threads act the same as.......(drumroll)........teflon tape.

[AndrewS]

Considering the "Italian Thread" thread, do you happen to remember what type of goo you assembled the BB with in the first place? What makes you think that's the same loctite as you have instructions for? They have all sorts of formulations - one that is intended to work dry is probably provided directly to manufacturers.

[fiamme red]

I have been riding bicycles with the far superior Italiano threading for years(Merckx, DeRosa, Ciocc) and have never had a RH cup come unscrewed.In what way is Italian threading far superior?

I just had a Campagnolo b.b. installed to replace the old worn out one in my Merckx. Obviously the mechanic didn't tighten it enough, because on my second ride with the new bottom bracket, it started unscrewing from the shell. About 40 miles later, the b.b. was protruding so far to the right that I could no longer move the pedals forward. Fortunately, I was a few blocks from a train station at that point.

[ultraman6970]

My personal experience i have never gotten the problem ever.

Never got to use nothing but grease in a italian BB, I believe the problem resides in the fact that with italian BBs u have to use heavy duty tools for the fixed cup. With home tools you can't crank the BB cup how it should be.

We used to use something like this to install them.

http://www.bikebling.com/v/vspfiles/photos/Hozan-BB-FixedCup-Tool-2.jpg


As for new outboard cups, I use teflon tape and grease, never a problem with it. Doubt outboard cups suffer the problem anyways.

[Germany_chris]

+1 on the teflon tape..

I use teflon tape on anything with threads..

[hockeybike]

Would the same method of putting loctite/teflon tape on metal cups apply to the plastic cups that come with modern shimano square taper bbs? I put a shimano un-54 in my friend's Puch and it has italian threading. The issue I'm worried about is destroying the plastic LH cup by trying to remove it with the teflon tape on the threads.

I've seen an Ital bb unthread mid ride before and it's not pretty...great way to wreck your day and take out a FD if your friend is really careless and just thinks "some knocking is normal, right?"

[Nags&Ducs]

Prep the frame, tighten to torque(TIGHT) with grease and teflon tape on the threads. I have been riding bicycles with the far superior Italiano threading for years(Merckx, DeRosa, Ciocc) and have never had a RH cup come unscrewed. Loctite and it may bond in there, never to come out again. Just saw a Bianchi like this.

I only use grease and tighten it to the proper torque. I've never had problems with BB coming loose. In fact the only time I've ever had this happen was on my Klein which had English threads. The BB had some stiction, and it somehow caused the non-drive side crank come loose.

Btw Peter, why do you consider the Italian design superior? I figure they are both effective designs & perform the job as it was meant to.

[csm]

Milan Fashion Week

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Milan+Fashion+Week+Gucci+Fashion+Show+na67rGxp3I1l .jpg

my first thoughts too....
I mean, who uses Italian bottom brackets anymore....

[khjr]

Me too..lots of ways to make the RH BB cup stay tight. I have had to cut out too many BB cups because they had loctite on them corroded and then were bonded in there.

BS design or not, they are out there and they need to be addressed in a way that keeps the RH cup in there. Grease, frame prep, teflon tape has worked for me for 25 years, think I'll leave the loctite for FSA cranks and downtube friction shifters, thanks.

What do you use for the non-drive side cups, and for both cups on English threaded bottom brackets? Grease only?

[Bob Loblaw]

Teflon tape to keep it all together, grease to keep it quiet.

I use teflon tape on my cars and motorcycles too.

BL

[dave thompson]

What do you use for the non-drive side cups, and for both cups on English threaded bottom brackets? Grease only?
Grease and tape here on all bottom bracket cups.

[allenwhy]

So what is the lockring for if it doesn't lock anything?

[oldpotatoe]

anyone got advice for keeping an italian threaded BB in place? any luck with loctite?

NOT loctite, unless you wish it to be bonded there forever.

-Prepped BB shell-Faced!
-Grease
-Teflon tape
-TIGHT

Just saw this thread is from September??

[oldpotatoe]

What do you use for the non-drive side cups, and for both cups on English threaded bottom brackets? Grease only?

Prepped frame, grease and tightness.
Rotation of the bearings causes RH cups on the far superior Italian threading to come unscrewed. Bearings are opposite the LH cup, making them tighten(if really draggy, of course).

There is some sort of term from physics for this..precession or something?

I donno, I'm a bike wrench.

[mack]

There it is.......good on ya 'Oldpotatoe', not mentioned previously and often a presumed oversight, a must, in my view, especially with the use of contemporary outboard bearing cups.....number one- face the bb shell
Then I fly, generally, with just grease and sufficiently torqued+ cups.
Never a problem.....but now that I've made that statement, I'm going to obsesively watch my bb cups on every ride!