Kinlin vs. Aerohead advice

[AndrewS]

I'm in the mood to build a light, less expensive wheel set. As Kinlin XR-200s and Aerohead/OCs are both available in these drillings for less than $50 per shipped rim, they seem like the best bets. So:

Velocity Aerohead and AH OC built 20/24. 1473 grams for the wheelset.

Kinlin XR-200 24/28. 1465g.

Kinlin XR-200 20/24. 1410g.

I weigh 145 pounds, which puts me outside the recommended 20/24 limit for the XR-200s of 130 pounds, but I tend to be very easy on equipment, so these are tempting.

The other two options are technically stong enough and about the same weight, but the Kinlins require 8 more spokes, making them less aerodynamic, but perhaps structurally stronger or have better ride characteristics?

I welcome all opinions, and haven't made up my mind between the three. If there is some other drilling options to consider, I'd like to hear it.


BTW, the above weights are with brass nipples and DB spokes. Are alloy nipples worth the extra expense for only about 30 grams in total savings?

Thanks!

[ergott]

Just curious, what hubs?

What spokes?

Alloy nipples are fine.

The lightest I would go with the Kinlin is 20/28.

For comparison sake:
Alchemy hubs
Kinlin XR-200
Sapim CX-Rays (you ca sub in Lasers, DT Aerolites or DT Revolutions)
alloy nips
20/28

1296g

24 front spokes would be 1316g. That's way under what you are expecting, but more in line of a typical XR-200 build. Between the two, I do like them better than the Aeroheads because they are more consistently round.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm in the mood to build a light, less expensive wheel set. As Kinlin XR-200s and Aerohead/OCs are both available in these drillings for less than $50 per shipped rim, they seem like the best bets. So:

Velocity Aerohead and AH OC built 20/24. 1473 grams for the wheelset.

Kinlin XR-200 24/28. 1465g.

Kinlin XR-200 20/24. 1410g.

I weigh 145 pounds, which puts me outside the recommended 20/24 limit for the XR-200s of 130 pounds, but I tend to be very easy on equipment, so these are tempting.

The other two options are technically stong enough and about the same weight, but the Kinlins require 8 more spokes, making them less aerodynamic, but perhaps structurally stronger or have better ride characteristics?

I welcome all opinions, and haven't made up my mind between the three. If there is some other drilling options to consider, I'd like to hear it.


BTW, the above weights are with brass nipples and DB spokes. Are alloy nipples worth the extra expense for only about 30 grams in total savings?

Thanks!

Don't think you will really notice 8 more spokes in terms of aerodynamics but you sure will notice a broken spoke when you ride.

Alloy nipples with non eyeletted rims is a bad idea. Rims can cut the soft nipples.

Or 24 front, 28 rear, Revolutions on the front, laced 2 cross and 1/2 revs rear also laced 2 cross...using either rim selection..8 spokes, about 50 grams...2 ounces, more reliable wheel. 2 ounces are what .06 of 1% of the bike and rider total?

[thwart]

One of my favorite wheelsets is the XR-200's laced with silver CX-Rays 24/28 to black WI hubs.

Light, strong, fast... and they look great too. So far the alloy nips have been OK.

I wouldn't spare the spokes, having seen rides end suddenly for folks with a broken spoke. Doesn't help to open the brake when the rim is semi-taco'ed and hitting the frame...

[AndrewS]

Thanks, everyone. I had to check Eric's math, but found that I got similar numbers by going from 2.0/1.8 DTs to 2.0/1.5s.

Eric, thanks for the comparison on the rims. 20 years ago Velocity Aero's weren't super round, either.

The hubs in question are Novatec's nicest traditional hubset - A291SB and F482SB. While I've read a couple denouncements based on the Joytech connection, I haven't heard anything actually bad about them and there seems to be a lot of them out there rebranded. At $140 for the pair, they are less than most lightweight front hubs (Alchemy, White, etc).

Based on the three posters, and aesthetic considerations, I'll probably go 24/28 Kinlin + Revolutions with the brass nipples they come with. I was planning on 2x already (never understood the need for radial). That will still net me around 1350 grams for a $270 wheelset.

BTW, this is my first "weightweenie" specific foray. Normally, "light enough" has been good enough, but I could use an extra wheelset between my several road bikes, and the Extralight could use pampering.

[ergott]

I don't think you can beat that dollar per bling set of wheels.

[AndrewS]

Well, let's hope they aren't just bling - I'm hoping that a lightweight set of wheels with lower profile rims will also ride as nice as they climb. :)

[old fat man]

I'm also building a set of kinlin rims with some "unbranded" hubs. Total package for the kinlin 270, double butted spokes, and these hubs:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190410749349&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

will end up costing less than $240 and then, of course my time to build them. Mine will be heavier due to the 270 rim but they should still be pretty light for the price and I weigh 175 so I prefer the added durability.

if the hubs are good, i plan on doing fancier wheelsets with them. seems like a very fair price for the product.

[buldogge]

Those don't look bad...really if quality bearing are used the hub itself should be no problem...BUT...what about the freehub itself??? What about freehub replacements or swaps??

I'd be tempted to build these with 270s and DT Comps, Revs or CX-Rays.

Might have to try that...

OFM...Please post some photos when you get them built up.

-Mark in St. Louis

I'm also building a set of kinlin rims with some "unbranded" hubs. Total package for the kinlin 270, double butted spokes, and these hubs:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190410749349&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

will end up costing less than $240 and then, of course my time to build them. Mine will be heavier due to the 270 rim but they should still be pretty light for the price and I weigh 175 so I prefer the added durability.

if the hubs are good, i plan on doing fancier wheelsets with them. seems like a very fair price for the product.

[Ralph]

My best riding, truest, lightest wheels are some IRD Cadence Niobium regular front and offset rear 32 hole rims on Record hubs. I believe these rims are made by Kinlin. Advertised at 390 grams. Price was right also. I weigh 160, and still prefer 32 hole rims for regular use, but they come in lower spoke count also. Check them out here. http://www.interlocracing.com/rims.html

[jmeloy]

Kinlins (ceramic coated) + Sapim X Rays + White Industries hubs, built by Troy Ligero. They are outstanding.

[old fat man]

Those don't look bad...really if quality bearing are used the hub itself should be no problem...BUT...what about the freehub itself??? What about freehub replacements or swaps??

I'd be tempted to build these with 270s and DT Comps, Revs or CX-Rays.

Might have to try that...

OFM...Please post some photos when you get them built up.

-Mark in St. Louis

will do. the campy hub is backordered for a bit so i won;t be building until middle of the month but that's ok. also, with the best offer option on ebay i got the pair for $120 shipped.

[AndrewS]

The Novatecs I'm planning on using are $141 shipped, with skewers. And you can mix and match the front and rear drillings:

http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp

The combination of reasonable reputation, 321 gram weight, spare parts and skewers made them the best deal I could find.

[old fat man]

the parts all arrived last night for the build (convenient since they were from two different sources). i don't have a gram scale but i used my bike scale to get a rough estimate of the parts:

- no name hubset: 300gram (210 and 90)
- Kinlin 270 rims: 440grams (more than I expected but still ok)
- Sapim Laser spokes and brass nipples: 400grams

So total wheelset weight should be around 1580. I'm going to start lacing tonight (radial front, 3x rear). Hoping to ride them by the weekend.

I'll add some pictures as I build.

[AndrewS]

440g is the published weight for the XR-270. Had you read 430?

I have the Novatecs, silver Kinlin XR-200 (385 or 390g, depending what you're reading) 24/28 and DT Revolution and Competition spokes.

I'm using the 2.0/1.5 spokes for the front wheel and NDS with alloy nipples (DT silvers aren't all that pretty, but they are relatively cheap). The 2.0/1.8 spokes go on the drive side with brass nipples for beefyness - but with only a little penalty.

I calculated it once, and using the Revolution spokes and brass nipples I got 1350g, so the alloy nipples will shave off a little more. I'm building 3 sets for myself and friends, so the final cost is going to be around $230 per wheelset. I'm satisfied with my purchase, and I'm told this combination builds a winner.

Don't forget to lube the nipple shoulders as well as threads!

[old fat man]

the wheelset is coming together nicely. i laced both last night and am almost done tensioning the rear.

i have some pictures to post soon too. total cost was $250 and the final weight is 1560 for what i consider a durable build. i'm anxious to see how they ride, stiffness-wise. should be ideal for the rough boston roads.

[ergott]

Add to the fact that you guys will be able to maintain your wheels by yourself down the road.

Good on ya!

[buldogge]

Hey ofm... How do the hubs look? Did you inquire about replacement freehubs, or will you simply buy a spare hub for parts??

Looking forward to the pics...

-Mark in St. Louis

the wheelset is coming together nicely. i laced both last night and am almost done tensioning the rear.

i have some pictures to post soon too. total cost was $250 and the final weight is 1560 for what i consider a durable build. i'm anxious to see how they ride, stiffness-wise. should be ideal for the rough boston roads.

[old fat man]

Hey ofm... How do the hubs look? Did you inquire about replacement freehubs, or will you simply buy a spare hub for parts??

Looking forward to the pics...

-Mark in St. Louis


the hubs look nice. they have dt style bearing caps. i did not ask about a replacement freehub. knock on wood, I've never had to replace one. i guess i rotate my wheels enough to avoid wearing it out (or i've been lucky).

ergott, definitely thrilled to put my wheel building lessons to use. so sick of paying $8 for a single proprietary spoke, or worse, having to send a wheel away to have spokes replaced.

[old fat man]

they tensioned up really nicely and evenly. gonna ride them tomorrow. here are some pictures. the front hub looks very similar to the one williams is using. not sure about the rear.

[AndrewS]

Hey OFM,

Nice job!

In one photo it shows a fair bit of exposed spoke thread. Are your spokes short, or have long threads, like for 16mm nipples?

http://wheelfanatyk.blogspot.com/2010/07/wheel-building-tip-no-9-succeed-with.html

[old fat man]

Hey OFM,

Nice job!

In one photo it shows a fair bit of exposed spoke thread. Are your spokes short, or have long threads, like for 16mm nipples?

http://wheelfanatyk.blogspot.com/2010/07/wheel-building-tip-no-9-succeed-with.html

thanks for the link. they are brass nipples and they got another solid 2 turns after that picture was taken. there is a little bit of thread still showing so either my use of the DT spoke length calculator was wrong, the data I had about the hub and rim was wrong, or the spokes are wrong. I'll be watching this closely though.

[false_Aest]

I know one should measure the ERD of the rims they have in hand BUT

out of curiosity, what is the ERD of your rims vs the published ERD?


Eric, you care to chime in about what you've found with these rims?

[ergott]

Average ERD of the XR-270 is 586.2mm. They are very consistent unlike other rims so that number should be good enough to select spokes with.

Average weight is 435g for me (stopped sampling after 15).

If you only went two more turns past where I see in the picture, your spokes are too short by a lot.

My wheels aren't even under significant tension when I make the threads disappear under the nipple.

If you give me the hub specs (assuming they are reliable), I can check your spoke lengths for you with my calculator. Nothing proprietary, but I trust it.

[old fat man]

thanks Eric. front hub specs from the seller are:

Flange Dia L = 38mm R = 38mm
Hole = 2.6mm
Cen to Flange L = 32mm R = 32mm

these are 24 hole, laced radially with Sapim Laser spokes.

I had calculated 274mm for the spokes...

I don't know how to confirm these measurements for myself. i'm assuming i would need calipers...

[ergott]

thanks Eric. front hub specs from the seller are:

Flange Dia L = 38mm R = 38mm
Hole = 2.6mm
Cen to Flange L = 32mm R = 32mm

these are 24 hole, laced radially with Sapim Laser spokes.

I had calculated 274mm for the spokes...

I don't know how to confirm these measurements for myself. i'm assuming i would need calipers...

I get the same. Are the heads of the spoke flush with the top of the nipples when you look inside the rim? That's the goal. If you still have threads exposed on the outside then the hub dimensions are off.

From Wheel Fanatyk:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FkxX587Lsik/TDK077bk5cI/AAAAAAAAAg4/WQ8sATb_M5M/s1600/nipple+thread.jpg

[AndrewS]

Looking at the hubs I ordered, I can't imagine that 38mm is the correct flange (spoke hole circle) diameter for yours. Little front hubs like mine and yours should be more like 30mm. 38 sounds like the outer flange, a useless measurement for wheel building.

I'm willing to bet that your spokes are 4mm too short [(38-30)/2=4]. You can eyeball the spoke hole circle dimension easily enough by laying a ruler across end of the hub - center of one spoke hole to the center of the opposite hole. If the axle caps come off easily, it will make measuring easier, but I'll you can get it close enough by eye, or even with fingernail calipers.

How's the rear looking? Given that it is 3x, you're probably fine even if the flange number is wrong because the flange height is 90 degrees off the spoke angle. Radial lacing makes flange mis-measurements much more critical.

[old fat man]

yeah, turns out the seller misrepresented the front flange height. it is 33, not 38. new calculation means i should be using 277, not 274 in front so i'm 3mm short on the spokes. i double checked through the spoke hole and they are in the "no go" range. darn, guess i'll have another chance to practice though.

[AndrewS]

First two sets are done:
http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo304/RX-79G/002.jpg

Two friends and I went in on 3 sets of these wheels, which keeps costs down. As they are good friends, and their coat-tailing brought the price down considerably, my labor is free.

You're looking at Novatec cartridge bearing road hubs off the BDOP website. I'm impressed, so far. They're reasonably quiet, have good specs, are very nicely made and finished, and came with very nice skewers for $3 extra.

The rims are Kinlin XR-200 in brushed silver - 24 front, 28 rear. Spokes are DT Revolutions with alloy DT nipples, except driveside which are Competitions with brass DTs. Found a good price on light Ritchey rim strip to finish them off.

Build comments:
As every other build with good components, it was pretty easy. Tighten to last thread, true, continue tension, stress relieve, true, tension, stress relieve, true, stress relieve. The rims wanted to stay true and dished, all I had to do was tension it evenly and correct it occassionally.

I greased the nipples and oiled the spokes with Triflow. I chose not to build right to left on the rear because the difference in spokes/nipples meant that the two sides took tension fairly similarly. The rim is thin enough that I don't think it is possible to get it quite as amazingly true as a thicker walled rim, but you really have to look to see any movement at all.

There were three tiny "tings" on my first ride with minor rim movement, so I used heavy gloves on the second set when I stress relieved them to make sure everything was completely stretched and seated. I don't think I was squeezing hard enough because of the thin spokes cutting into my fingers. Looking forward to seeing how they work out long term, but I'm confident.

"Performance" wise, they feel light and rigid enough sprinting around the block. Low speed acceleration was especially noticeable. My $5 digital luggage scale claims they weigh 1340g! That's less than I calculated, but the same scale verified the 17.5 lbs total bike weight that I had seen on a shop scale, and a post upgrade total weight of 16.6 lbs with the new wheels, which is about right based on the previous wheels and 1340. So, let's just assume they came in at a healthy margin below 1400.

I'm pleased with the way the look, built up and ride - and all for about $240. I'd recommend wheel building to anyone who's reasonably handy and will take the time to read and follow Wheelsmith best practices.

[rice rocket]

Mind posting the spoke lengths?

I'm too lazy to calculate/look up a calculator. :p

[AndrewS]

290, 286, 282, all 2x.

[Mark McM]

There were three tiny "tings" on my first ride with minor rim movement, so I used heavy gloves on the second set when I stress relieved them to make sure everything was completely stretched and seated. I don't think I was squeezing hard enough because of the thin spokes cutting into my fingers.

The "tings" during the first usage of wheels isn't about the spokes stretching or seating, per se. It is caused by the spokes unwinding.

Spokes are long narrow wires with little torsional stiffness, so they twist easily when turning the nipples. When tensions get high, the friction between spokes and nipples increases, and require more torque to break the initial static friction to turn the nipples on the spokes threads. This can result in the spokes twisting, or winding up, a small portion of a turn before the nipples actually turn on the threads. Due to the high friction between the spokes, nipples and rim, the wind-up can remain in the spokes after adjusting the nipple.

When wheels are ridden, the spokes de-tension a bit as they pass through the Load Affected Zone (LAZ) at the bottom of the wheel. The reduction of friction between spoke and nipple during the de-tensioning can allow the spokes to break the static friction and suddenly twist back to their un-wound state. The spokes often make a "ping" sound when they suddenly un-wind. Unfortunately, the spokes can also slighly unscrew from the nipples when they unwind, causing the wheel to go a little out of true, as you discovered

Stress relieving (squeezing of the spokes) primarly is intended to seat the ends of the spokes into the flange, and also to relieve stress concentrations in the elbows, but it can also have some affect on un-winding the spokes. When spokes are momentarily over-loaded during stress-relief, the adjacent spokes are slightly de-tensioned, which can allow the spokes to unwind. But this de-tensioning is generally not as high as occurs in the LAZ during actual use, so it can't be relied on to eliminate all wind-up.

The best way to address wind-up is during the adjustment of the nipples. One way is to hold the spokes to keep them from winding up to begin with. This is easiest to do with bladed spokes. There are various tools made for this, usually using a slot to hold the bladed spoke when the nipple is turned. For round spokes there are "twist-resist" tools which are meant to clamp and hold the spokes to keep them from winding up, but they have varying degrees of affectiveness.

A second method to fight spoke wind up is simply to turn the nipples backwards the same angle as the spokes were twisted when the nipples were adjusted. As the builder twists a nipple to tighten it, he/she takes note of the spoke winding up and the angle at which the static thread friction is overcome to allow the nipple to actually turn on the spoke threads, and then after the adjustment is made the builder simply turns the nipple backward the same angle as the initial wind-up. This is easy with bladed spokes bacause the angle of wind-up can be directly seen in the angle of the blade. For round spokes some builders attach a piece of tape as a "flag" on the spoke so that the wind-up can be seen. With experience, a builder holding both the spoke and the spoke wrench can actually feel the wind-up in the spoke and detect the moment that the nipples breaks free of the static tension, to determine how much the nipple has to be turned back to eliminat the wind-up.

On a side note, as far as squeezing the spokes for stress-relief, it is best to wear heavy work gloves so you can impart a good firm squeeze with the fingers without the spokes cutting into the skin. This is especially true for bladed spokes.

[SEABREEZE]

Kinlins (ceramic coated) + Sapim X Rays + White Industries hubs, built by Troy Ligero. They are outstanding.


It appears you missed the negative thread by sam am I on troy ligero.

sam claims he purchased many wheel sets from troy, and talked highly and referred many.

however he is presently singing a differnt tune... many others have made the same comments. about him not being reliable.,returning calls ...living upto his promised due date.etc etc

its unfortunate, as many have said he did build great wheels.

sam said something to the effect he was no longer going to build wheels but wholesale wheels and wheel parts to dealers...

[AndrewS]

Thanks for the comments, Mark. I did address using gloves in my post.

I am aware of wind-up, and tend to back off the last part of every twist to combat it (turn 1/2, back off 1/8). I guess those 3 tings were the ones I missed - the rim only moved about 1mm in any direction. I think the main thing was the lack of gloves on that first build to really squeeze them. I'll be interested to see what happens with the second and third pair. I think that little things like this can get exaggerated when using really light rims - the rim's own flexibility adds to the shifting that the wheel experiences under load.


Seabreaze, I don't think jmeloy's comments were about Troy's business practices as much as about how the Kinlin rims worked out. This thread is about home building, after all.

[SEABREEZE]

Seabreaze, I don't think jmeloy's comments were about Troy's business practices as much as about how the Kinlin rims worked out. This thread is about home building, after all.



Then he sould not of mentioned who build them, and just mention the wheel build... perhaps jmeloy wasn't aware of that negative thread... which is understandable...

[AndrewS]

Then he sould not of mentioned who build them, and just mention the wheel build... perhaps jmeloy wasn't aware of that negative thread... which is understandable...
Actually, I think if he, or any one else, wants to drop an extraneous detail - builder, spoke color, flavor bearing grease - that's their call to make.

Ligero seems to bother people, but name dropping someone who no longer sells to the public has no negative repurcussions. Whether he knew about Ligero's business problems or not makes no difference to what was stated. Your censure is inappropriate - jmeloy can state whatever facts he wants.

[SEABREEZE]

Actually, I think if he, or any one else, wants to drop an extraneous detail - builder, spoke color, flavor bearing grease - that's their call to make.

Ligero seems to bother people, but name dropping someone who no longer sells to the public has no negative repurcussions. Whether he knew about Ligero's business problems or not makes no difference to what was stated. Your censure is inappropriate - jmeloy can state whatever facts he wants.

MR or Mrs AB OR C has freedom of speech, regardless if he did or wasn't
aware of the thread... However, I dont want see anyone else out money in there pocket or having there WHEELS spinned ..

When you know indept details as I do, you can comment, I can say plenty, but am reserving myself not to., as everything that was said is enough to bring awareness...Weather you like it or not..

If you were victimized or out 1k you may be signing another tune chump... as others had

Further more many, and I say many thanked the poster for posting that thread. IF you would of talked that way you ar now in that thread, they would of all laughed at you...

Get a little more milage under your belt MR 2010 member... before you think you know it all.

The fact that you continue to comment on Legero , just keeps this thread going.... Perhaps your a victum, and thats your objective...

[AndrewS]

Jeez, Seabreaze, I'm not defending Troy Ligero! I agree that his business practices are bad!

How does that relate to you slapping a gag order on jmeloy???????

[TAW]

FWIW I don't believe Jmeloy bought the wheels custom built from Ligero.

[old fat man]

seabreeze, back off. the point of the thread was the velocity vs kinlin rims. great feedback about the rims from all contributors so far.

i have not put many more miles on my 270 build but i am looking forward to it. i now have three interesting wheelsets for comparison:

- kinlin 270 24/28 (built by me)
- aerohead 32/32 (built by me)
- a23 24/28 (built by velocity usa)

looking forward to some non-cx race weekends this fall (or some sunny mornings again in New England) to compare and contrast all three.

weight wise, they are all between 1500-1600 and all built with round, double butted spokes.

i'm happy to have a stable of hand built, non-proprietary wheels these days. I may sneak a set of kinlin 200 or kinlin 300 in there as well over the winter.

[SamIAm]

Please, let's not make this about Troy and just for the record, I really do wish him the best because he builds awesome wheels and I like him personally. All I would say is, like JMeloy, stick to purchasing wheels that are already built, consider paying upon shipment and hope you don't need warranty work.

I hate not having him as a supplier as I need a new set of hoops for the new frame I'm building up this weekend.