View Full Version : 2011 Raleigh International
Chuck Hammer
08-18-2010, 07:50 AM
Has anyone seen this bike yet and possibly know who is making the frames for Raleigh?
OtayBW
08-18-2010, 09:15 AM
Whoo Hoo! My first (real) bike from way back when! Unless they're making them with Reynolds 531 and chromed, scalloped lugs, it just won't be the same....
Idris Icabod
08-18-2010, 10:47 AM
You should post this question over at RBR.com as I think the fellow who makes/imports them hangs out over there. The only thing I know is that it isn't the original Raleigh from the UK as I tried to get one when I was back in the UK a couple of years ago. Raleigh in the UK make cheapy kids bikes now and I am not even sure that is the original Raleigh. I do remember seeing that Raleigh are sponsoring a pro team so perhaps there are several people using the Raleigh name? A fellow I ride occasionally with has a carbon Raleigh (US) edition, it is about 2-3 years old. It is pretty generic in my opinion.
Saw one of these in person today, well not the International, one level below. LBS carrying it says the International, with DA, is built by Waterford.
SPOKE
03-06-2011, 06:59 PM
just ordered one of these. hope to have it by the end of the week. stay tuned for a ride report. :D
that guy
03-07-2011, 05:47 PM
As glad as I am that this bike exists and there is a market for high quality steel bikes, I just can't imagine how somone would pay that much for a bike that only comes in one color and four sizes. If it is built by Waterford, why does it cost as much as, if not more than a custom Waterford? :crap:
You should post this question over at RBR.com as I think the fellow who makes/imports them hangs out over there. The only thing I know is that it isn't the original Raleigh from the UK as I tried to get one when I was back in the UK a couple of years ago. Raleigh in the UK make cheapy kids bikes now and I am not even sure that is the original Raleigh. I do remember seeing that Raleigh are sponsoring a pro team so perhaps there are several people using the Raleigh name? A fellow I ride occasionally with has a carbon Raleigh (US) edition, it is about 2-3 years old. It is pretty generic in my opinion.
The fellow goes by the name Argentius.
He works at Raleigh USA and would be best positioned to be able to answer any questions.
SPOKE
03-07-2011, 06:37 PM
As glad as I am that this bike exists and there is a market for high quality steel bikes, I just can't imagine how somone would pay that much for a bike that only comes in one color and four sizes. If it is built by Waterford, why does it cost as much as, if not more than a custom Waterford? :crap:
Think of it as an oldFord Model T......any color you want as long as it's black:)
As a shop employee i got a smokin' deal. I basically got a really nice build kit and a free frame to hang it on. I like the color and the size is close enuf to my custom geometry so it will work for me.
endosch2
03-08-2011, 07:34 AM
The LBS here said 1600 retail for the International frameset.
Does that sound right to people? If so it seems like a good deal.
oldpotatoe
03-08-2011, 07:48 AM
As glad as I am that this bike exists and there is a market for high quality steel bikes, I just can't imagine how somone would pay that much for a bike that only comes in one color and four sizes. If it is built by Waterford, why does it cost as much as, if not more than a custom Waterford? :crap:
Gotta agree. Raleigh, like DeRosa, Pinarello, Mercian, etc., don't command as much panache as they once did whereas Waterford, owned and operated but the grandson of old man Schwinn, still does, IMHO.
SPOKE
03-08-2011, 07:51 AM
The LBS here said 1600 retail for the International frameset.
Does that sound right to people? If so it seems like a good deal.
That price sounds about right for frameset pricing.
ultraman6970
03-08-2011, 09:11 AM
Sincerelly man, that frame is one of the ugliest things ever. Don't even compare to the old ones.
If you need a dura ace oem group and a 50 bucks frame it is a good deal, but as a bike Raleigh USA and Raleigh UK lost it looooooonnnggg time ago.
http://vintagewheeler.blogspot.com/2010/07/ti-raleigh-professional.html
http://radpropaganda.org/raleigh-team-pro-timeline/raleigh-team-trauma-professional/
endosch2
03-08-2011, 09:46 AM
Actually Alan Finden Crofts has been the private owner of Raleigh USA and UK almost uninterrupted for at least 25+ years. He also owned Gazelle in the NL and Kalkoff in Germany. The UK company is huge although in a different place in the market there. The USA branch is flat lined over the last 20 years or so. The last time they imported real british steel frames from the UK was 1992. There were some 531 and 753 frames that were incredible.
It is funny how all the retro grouches on this forum wishfully ponder why more big bike companies dont make lugged steel frames, and then when one of the companies does (Raleigh has a line of 8-10 steel road bikes) - they get kicked for not being "authentic" or whatever.
Give me a break.....
buck-50
03-08-2011, 10:16 AM
It is funny how all the retro grouches on this forum wishfully ponder why more big bike companies dont make lugged steel frames, and then when one of the companies does (Raleigh has a line of 8-10 steel road bikes) - they get kicked for not being "authentic" or whatever.
Give me a break.....
I think the problem is that skinny tubed steel frames with chrome lugs and classic paint look ridiculous with Modern Dura Ace and deep dish rims.
We're used to seeing spidery-light looking frames with simple, spidery light looking components of polished metal.
Some modern components look OK on a lugged steel frame. Most don't.
I kinda get the feeling that some of the "retro" steel frames would do better if they were just sold as frames. But then, that's the other problem- I can buy a new mass-produced "retro" steel frame for say, $5-600 bucks. But I can get a used one that's got more... cache, panache, whatever for the same or less.
What we say we want isn't always what we really want I guess.
only the international is built out of reynolds 853. the rest of the models are built out of reynolds 520. it's a limited run of steel frames. but for $1600 you could get a custom frame built.
buck-50
03-08-2011, 10:30 AM
only the international is built out of reynolds 853. the rest of the models are built out of reynolds 520. it's a limited run of steel frames. but for $1600 you could get a custom frame built.
Let's be fair, for $1600, you are going to have a hard time getting a custom steel frame with polished stainless steel (or chrome) lugs, chromed chainstays and matching chromed fork...
maybe Mercian?
Kevan
03-08-2011, 02:42 PM
The crankset is a bit of a downer.
endosch2
03-08-2011, 05:25 PM
I think the problem is that skinny tubed steel frames with chrome lugs and classic paint look ridiculous with Modern Dura Ace and deep dish rims.
We're used to seeing spidery-light looking frames with simple, spidery light looking components of polished metal.
Some modern components look OK on a lugged steel frame. Most don't.
I kinda get the feeling that some of the "retro" steel frames would do better if they were just sold as frames. But then, that's the other problem- I can buy a new mass-produced "retro" steel frame for say, $5-600 bucks. But I can get a used one that's got more... cache, panache, whatever for the same or less.
What we say we want isn't always what we really want I guess.
Thank you for knowing at least knowing yourself and your honesty.
So in order for the big bike companies to successfully produce bikes that appeal to the retro crowd they need to convince campy, shimano, and suntour superbe to re-tool to re-make all their best 6 speed grouppos to appeal to a market of maybe 5000 end users in the US. They need to convince the component companies that it is more about silver esthetics than anything else.....
I am not being critical, I just think the retro look and all of the ideas that surround it are only a minute segment of cycling, yet very loud in opinions. It is hardly commercially viable beyond one man and a garage welding shop, not that there is anything wrong with that...... but it will never go beyond that from a business standpoint.
Frankwurst
03-08-2011, 06:54 PM
Were the original Internationals built with Reynolds 531? :beer:
ultraman6970
03-08-2011, 07:08 PM
I believe so and looked way better :P
buck-50
03-08-2011, 07:45 PM
Thank you for knowing at least knowing yourself and your honesty.
So in order for the big bike companies to successfully produce bikes that appeal to the retro crowd they need to convince campy, shimano, and suntour superbe to re-tool to re-make all their best 6 speed grouppos to appeal to a market of maybe 5000 end users in the US. They need to convince the component companies that it is more about silver esthetics than anything else.....
I am not being critical, I just think the retro look and all of the ideas that surround it are only a minute segment of cycling, yet very loud in opinions. It is hardly commercially viable beyond one man and a garage welding shop, not that there is anything wrong with that...... but it will never go beyond that from a business standpoint.
I think companies like velo orange are doing all that really needs to be done for the retro market. What might need to happen is someone might need to spec vo components...
I think you are right, it's a niche market at best. But it is a nice niche. :beer:
Elefantino
03-08-2011, 07:52 PM
Were the original Internationals built with Reynolds 531? :beer:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_mgOn_NpgBE/TWRiyjVL8YI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/BWy51tScAmw/s1600/Raleigh_side.jpg
Yes. 531 double butted, Gran Record, Weinemann centerpull brakes. I know this bike very well!
It's not too bad as is but would look much better with a Sugino Alpina or new Mighty Tour.
bigflax925
03-08-2011, 08:47 PM
I think companies like velo orange are doing all that really needs to be done for the retro market. What might need to happen is someone might need to spec vo components...
I think you are right, it's a niche market at best. But it is a nice niche. :beer:
As an aside, but kinda in line with this thinking, I was shocked at the amount of bikes at NAHBS that spec'd a full gamut of VO products. I suspect that they will start becoming more mainstream as QBP pumps them into the marketplace.
oldpotatoe
03-09-2011, 11:38 AM
Saw one of these in person today, well not the International, one level below. LBS carrying it says the International, with DA, is built by Waterford.
Asked Richard, said he is not building them.
sg8357
03-09-2011, 12:02 PM
So in order for the big bike companies to successfully produce bikes that appeal to the retro crowd they need to convince campy,
My favorite retro group, lovely silver crank set that doesn't have
the Klingon Death weapon aesthetic of DuraAce.
Practical benefit, you can change the rings to fit rider capability
and the crank still looks good. The Campy shifters can handle
odd ring combos that baffle STI.
http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/newsdetail/newsid_92_newscatid_3.jsp
Aaron O
03-09-2011, 01:33 PM
I think you're all being far too negative...depending on price. If Waterford is indeed making these, $1,600 represents a bargain compared to a modern custom from them. With Rivendell you get a Taiwanese close to that price point. Is it possible to get a better deal? Probably, but it's possible to do a lot worse too. 853 is nice tubing and you're getting a full DA group? I can think of more over priced bikes out there.
Steel isn't just a retro thing...it offers real advantages beyond style. As far as the "it looks awful with modern parts" thing, that's aesthetics, and that's taste. As far as function, it works quite well. I love my traditional steel frame with modern parts! My only beef is that it would be better named a COmpetition or Professional and I'd prefer a Campy group.
There was a long conversation on this bike a bit ago...it's value depends on price and who makes it.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/712812-2011-Raleigh-International
oldpotatoe
03-09-2011, 01:55 PM
I think you're all being far too negative...depending on price. If Waterford is indeed making these, $1,600 represents a bargain compared to a modern custom from them. With Rivendell you get a Taiwanese close to that price point. Is it possible to get a better deal? Probably, but it's possible to do a lot worse too. 853 is nice tubing and you're getting a full DA group? I can think of more over priced bikes out there.
Steel isn't just a retro thing...it offers real advantages beyond style. As far as the "it looks awful with modern parts" thing, that's aesthetics, and that's taste. As far as function, it works quite well. I love my traditional steel frame with modern parts! My only beef is that it would be better named a COmpetition or Professional and I'd prefer a Campy group.
There was a long conversation on this bike a bit ago...it's value depends on price and who makes it.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/712812-2011-Raleigh-International
Waterford not making them and a custom R-22 is $1800, for info.
Aaron O
03-09-2011, 02:39 PM
Waterford not making them and a custom R-22 is $1800, for info.
That's actually a very reasonable price considering the source...the R-22 I mean.
SPOKE
03-09-2011, 03:03 PM
I'm actually surprised that this thread has so many responders. It tells me that there is at least a bit of interest in this "pseudo retro" attempt by Raleigh and other high volume manufactures. Raleigh, Fuji, Specialized & Jamis have been testing the waters with their steel offerings for several years. I think it's a good thing. Steel frames from these manufacturers won't be built with the same care and attention to detail of any bike I have from Serotta, Sachs, Bedford, or Kirk but its not intended to be that same level. What it does do is offer another choice in the market place. I think choice is good.
In my case I wouldn't have made the purchase if I had to pay anything close to retail. As many of you on this forum know i dont "need" another bike. But for what I paid for the bike I can easily ride it a bit then part it out and not loose a dime. The cheapest way to buy a build kit is by buying the whole bike at employee pricing.
Aaron O
03-09-2011, 03:09 PM
I'm actually surprised that this thread has so many responders. It tells me that there is at least a bit of interest in this "pseudo retro" attempt by Raleigh and other high volume manufactures. Raleigh, Fuji, Specialized & Jamis have been testing the waters with their steel offerings for several years. I think it's a good thing. Steel frames from these manufacturers won't be built with the same care and attention to detail of any bike I have from Serotta, Sachs, Bedford, or Kirk but its not intended to be that same level. What it does do is offer another choice in the market place. I think choice is good.
In my case I wouldn't have made the purchase if I had to pay anything close to retail. As many of you on this forum know i dont "need" another bike. But for what I paid for the bike I can easily ride it a bit then part it out and not loose a dime. The cheapest way to buy a build kit is by buying the whole bike at employee pricing.
+1...steel is a better material than aluminum or CF for a lot of riders out there. Not all riders, but many riders are better served with steel. I like that it's back in the marketplace for the more "typical" consumer. Would I buy that Raleigh, or a Fuji, or a Specialized? No...I'd be more likely to buy a Bilenky, Serotta, Sachs, etc...but I'm glad they're available.
BumbleBeeDave
03-09-2011, 03:43 PM
As many of you on this forum know i dont "need" another bike.
Do you still have all those bare frames in your bedroom closet? . . . :p
BBD
yetitotheheady
03-09-2011, 03:43 PM
So from my searching for who makes the New Raleigh International I came across this information on some Twitter accounts.
http://twitter.com/RaleighBicycles/status/30768255735963648
or here is the video they link to on Vimeo
http://vimeo.com/11205871
I wonder if anyone can confirm this...
oh and here is a nice looking (IMHO) Raleigh Record Ace build someone did. I wish the Record Ace was reynolds 631 at least, Id probably get it if that was the case.
http://www.lebikeclub.com/?p=616
SPOKE
03-09-2011, 04:40 PM
Do you still have all those bare frames in your bedroom closet? . . . :p
BBD
There is at least 3 hiding in that closet...:)
oliver1850
03-09-2011, 06:14 PM
.
SPOKE
04-29-2011, 05:24 PM
It took a good bit longer than I had expected but my Raleigh International has arrived! I'll put it together tomorrow afternoon and hope to do a "shake down" ride Sunday.
I'll report back in a few days....
stuckey
04-29-2011, 05:42 PM
So from my searching for who makes the New Raleigh International I came across this information on some Twitter accounts.
http://twitter.com/RaleighBicycles/status/30768255735963648
or here is the video they link to on Vimeo
http://vimeo.com/11205871
I wonder if anyone can confirm this...
oh and here is a nice looking (IMHO) Raleigh Record Ace build someone did. I wish the Record Ace was reynolds 631 at least, Id probably get it if that was the case.
http://www.lebikeclub.com/?p=616
I do not think you would ever notice the difference between 520 and 631 if the tube profiles are the same as in... both 8-5-8...
rice rocket
04-29-2011, 05:59 PM
I do not think you would ever notice the difference between 520 and 631 if the tube profiles are the same as in... both 8-5-8...
Yep.
Lets dig this up again... ;)
http://stahlrahmen-bikes.de/wp-content/uploads/Stahlrahmen_Vergleich.pdf
bobswire
04-29-2011, 07:55 PM
Sincerelly man, that frame is one of the ugliest things ever. Don't even compare to the old ones.
If you need a dura ace oem group and a 50 bucks frame it is a good deal, but as a bike Raleigh USA and Raleigh UK lost it looooooonnnggg time ago.
http://vintagewheeler.blogspot.com/2010/07/ti-raleigh-professional.html
http://radpropaganda.org/raleigh-team-pro-timeline/raleigh-team-trauma-professional/
Speaking of which. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-TI-RALEIGH-TEAM-Reynolds-Frameset-/250808494561?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6559e9e1
InspectorGadget
05-05-2011, 02:14 PM
It took a good bit longer than I had expected but my Raleigh International has arrived! I'll put it together tomorrow afternoon and hope to do a "shake down" ride Sunday.
I'll report back in a few days....I'm interested to hear what you have to say about the International; any news to report?
Since selling my beloved Waterford Paramount several years ago, I want to go back to a steel bike.
Fixed
05-05-2011, 03:01 PM
Gotta agree. Raleigh, like DeRosa, Pinarello, Mercian, etc., don't command as much panache as they once did whereas Waterford, owned and operated but the grandson of old man Schwinn, still does, IMHO.
that is a beauty 0po.
thanks for showing that blue is gorgeous and a artful build imho i want one just like it ,memo to self add to list .
cheers
I agree that modern D/A or Ultegra may not look the greatest on a newer vintage looking steel frame. That said, I think Pashley nailed it with their country clubman. I haven't seen one in the flesh, but with Reynolds 531, all alloy components, non aero levers, dt shifters, and centerpull brakes, I can't think of another complete production bike which so clearly encapsulates the vintage aesthetics.
http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/clubman-country.html (http://http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/clubman-country.html)
InspectorGadget
05-06-2011, 10:08 AM
When I asked my contact at Raleigh who was building the International frames, I received the following response:
Unfortunately, our builder has asked not to be directly identified! But, rest assured, it is a reputable frame-builder using time-tested, old-school methods to build the bikes.
I miss my Waterford Paramount . . . . is the Raleigh a suitable replacement?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_cDNQacBEdXM/TcQJisFmR0I/AAAAAAAAAEg/a8HTh8pNigI/s800/30%20May-2.JPG
SPOKE
05-06-2011, 10:28 AM
When I asked my contact at Raleigh who was building the International frames, I received the following response:
I miss my Waterford Paramount . . . . is the Raleigh a suitable replacement?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_cDNQacBEdXM/TcQJisFmR0I/AAAAAAAAAEg/a8HTh8pNigI/s800/30%20May-2.JPG
This is brief but.......sticker on the frame says made in China.
Rear triangle alignment poor at best. (some of the alignment issue was corrected by grinding/filing the rear dropouts) Chrome plating poor.
Outstanding parts kit!
Not remotely close to the quality of a true Waterford Paramount!
the ill postino
05-06-2011, 01:19 PM
sticker on the frame says made in China.
Seems like the post above re: Colossi cycles could be right. I would have guessed Maxway cycles in Taiwan since they seem like the go-to place for production steel frames these days.
The Soma Stanyan has a similar vibe, for example, and I think is from TW:
http://www.somafab.com/stanyan_woodfence.jpg
ultraman6970
05-06-2011, 02:19 PM
When I asked my contact at Raleigh who was building the International frames, I received the following response:
I miss my Waterford Paramount . . . . is the Raleigh a suitable replacement?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_cDNQacBEdXM/TcQJisFmR0I/AAAAAAAAAEg/a8HTh8pNigI/s800/30%20May-2.JPG
NEVER!!!!
Still can't understand why or how Raleigh came up with that POS.
InspectorGadget
05-06-2011, 06:52 PM
This is brief but.......sticker on the frame says made in China.
Rear triangle alignment poor at best. (some of the alignment issue was corrected by grinding/filing the rear dropouts) Chrome plating poor.
Outstanding parts kit!
Not remotely close to the quality of a true Waterford Paramount!That's disappointing.
So I should buy the International for the parts and sell the frame to some unsuspecting soul on ebay, yes?
ultraman6970
05-06-2011, 06:59 PM
Exactly what I said like 2 months ago, if you need a dura ace group plus a 50 bucks POS frame, the Raleigh is the way to go.
SPOKE
05-06-2011, 08:18 PM
Raleigh has requested that I send pics of the frame and a description of the alignment issues. According to the folks we have talked with truly are disappointed with the quality issues we have found. They have indicated that they will make it good.
ultraman6970
05-06-2011, 08:49 PM
U cant make a 150 bucks frame look like a 1200 bucks frame, Alignment is an easy fix, any local shop in your area can fix that. The chroming is another tale tho.
Raleigh has requested that I send pics of the frame and a description of the alignment issues. According to the folks we have talked with truly are disappointed with the quality issues we have found. They have indicated that they will make it good.
Hey Spoke:
Go over to my brothers house on the Circle there in Raleigh. He has a whole basement full of orignal Internationals and Pros much to the displeasure of his wife.
My two bothers and I leaped frogged each other in early years showing up with better bikes. The International was top of the heap until I showed up with a Legnano.
But my brother Mike still has a love affair with original Internationals has squireled a bunch away.
L8r...........
At 1600 and made in China I'll take a pass.
InspectorGadget
05-12-2011, 03:19 PM
Raleigh has requested that I send pics of the frame and a description of the alignment issues. According to the folks we have talked with truly are disappointed with the quality issues we have found. They have indicated that they will make it good.
SPOKE - Any news on Raleigh's proposed resolution? Maybe I should walk away, but I can't ignore the price.
PM coming your way.
SPOKE
05-12-2011, 04:17 PM
SPOKE - Any news on Raleigh's proposed resolution? Maybe I should walk away, but I can't ignore the price.
PM coming your way.
I haven't been home to work on getting the pics and writing up the issues.
Hope to get it put together next week.
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