Madfiber Wheels Arrived

[cippoforlife]

Since the early versions of Madfiber carbon tubular wheels have just been released, I figured I'd link to my blog posting, which contains pics, info, weights, and a very brief ride report.

http://mikesbikeparts.blogspot.com/2010/08/madfiber-wheels-1st-in-canada.html

Feel free to make comments on the blog or ask questions here.

Best,
Mike

[Tony Edwards]

They look cool but as a non-engineer the construction doesn't inspire confidence that they couldn't just collapse.

[rice rocket]

Why is weave used for spokes? I don't think there could be a more suitable use for uni.

[David Kirk]

Why is weave used for spokes? I don't think there could be a more suitable use for uni.

I can only assume that it's to give them better casual impact resistance. Unis can go bad very quickly with a slight impact. Just ask anyone with a Trek OCLV fork.

Dave

[11.4]

These were actually designed with some of the state-of-the-art zero-failure technologies developed at Boeing for attack fighter wings and such. As such, I think they probably suffice for a couple bicycle wheels.

There are several reasons for the woven carbon. The simplest is probably that there are two spokes for each piece of carbon sheet, and the spokes aren't directly opposed. As a result, you'd be cutting across fibers in a unidirectional fabric.

There are a few pairs of wheels out under racers at the moment, and they are already winning races on them. The wheels are extremely light (one set I tried are 1061 grams including skewers, before tires, glue, and cassette). They are also amazingly rigid -- probably more apparent a trait than their lightness. The spoke design is part of what accomplishes this rigidity. These are amazing racing wheels.

To naysayers, remember that most wheel designs are built off the cuff. The R-Sys was one example of this. These wheels were built beginning to end with the same design principles used in aerospace carbon, which are principles that have been tested quite well. If you were able to see inside the rim, you'd also see that the spoke is attached much more solidly than you might imagine from an exterior photo.

[rice rocket]

These were actually designed with some of the state-of-the-art zero-failure technologies developed at Boeing for attack fighter wings and such. As such, I think they probably suffice for a couple bicycle wheels.

Zero failure implies extra levels of factor of safety. When you crank your FoS (and weight) down to near 100%, do the same principles apply?


They look snazzy and built to the limit, but to say races are being won on them tells me nothing other than they're round and some dude with strong lungs slapped them on his bike. What are the actual service conditions these wheels are designed for? Looks like an expensive trip down Roubaix... :rolleyes:

[firerescuefin]

These were actually designed with some of the state-of-the-art zero-failure technologies.

To naysayers, remember that most wheel designs are built off the cuff. The R-Sys was one example of this. These wheels were built beginning to end with the same design principles used in aerospace carbon, which are principles that have been tested quite well. If you were able to see inside the rim, you'd also see that the spoke is attached much more solidly than you might imagine from an exterior photo.

It's interesting that you mention zero failure technologies and R-Sys in the same post. These almost look like a new spin (no pun intended) on Spinergys. You may very well be right, they may be better than sliced bread, but I'll let you and your friends work the bugs out. I had a good friend killed in an OV-22 Osprey helicopter due to flight control failure (triple redundancy - failure proof). Tell his wife and kids as well as the others killed on the helicopter that the flight controls were "zero failure". Just because its the latest and greatest does not necessarily make it the latest and greatest.

Just to add. I have a Ti bike with carbon bars/stem/steerer/wheels and seatpost. I love carbon and technology. I would like the technology to prove itself out before I jump on it.


Couple links regarding the wheels below.

www.madfiber.com

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/mad-fiber-carbon-road-wheels-first-look-26205

[oldpotatoe]

They look cool but as a non-engineer the construction doesn't inspire confidence that they couldn't just collapse.

Lessee here, save about a pound of weight for how much, $5000+?

Bike stuff run amok.

[ClutchCargo]

Lessee here, save about a pound of weight for how much, $5000+?

Bike stuff run amok.

According to what standard? In Pebble Beach over the
weekend people were spending over $6 million for a car.
So what? It's just bike stuff. Relax and enjoy.

[DreaminJohn]

They look really, really cool. Hats off to anyone with the means (and nerve? :) ) to try them.

They're just not built for this "32 Spoke Minimum" clydesdale.

[ClutchCargo]

Is that spoke configuration even legal for UCI road racing? I thought the old Spinergy 4 spokers were outlawed as being too dangerous (too easy to get an appendage mangled in the event of a crash).

[Charles M]

The ability of people to take things out of context and over blow responses is sometimes pretty high here. So is telling folks they don't or do stand up without ever haveing one in your hands...

I always like the arbitrary flame post, especially following a pretty well thought post that includes both build knowledge and hands on experience.

I would guess we all think 32 spokes means durable and wheelsmith possibly pops to some of our more metal fixated minds. In that case it might interest you to know that it's the good-old wheelsmith founder that is building these...




The weave is for the reason above (and it looks nice to some...). The stiffness will suprise some. The weight is what it is...

The price is some place near half of Lightweight / Corima MCC (I don't include RZR as they frankly just don't stack up in all round performance). I think I heard $2499... right around a lot of high end standard spoke wheels.

[rice rocket]

The ability of people to take things out of context and over blow responses is sometimes pretty high here. So is telling folks they don't or do stand up without ever haveing one in your hands...

I always like the arbitrary flame post, especially following a pretty well thought post that includes both build knowledge and hands on experience.

I would guess we all think 32 spokes means durable and wheelsmith possibly pops to some of our more metal fixated minds. In that case it might interest you to know that it's the good-old wheelsmith founder that is building these...


Anyone can throw up a website and claim experience and engineering prowess. You have no idea how many NASA engineers couldn't engineer their way out of a box, let alone talk their way out of it. :crap: I've talked to 3 off the top of my head, one with 20 years experience in composites, blah blah...but couldn't give me a straight answer when asked simple questions about the use of their fancy specially spun one-off carbon weaves in simple loading conditions.

Having founded Wheelsmith tells me the man knows high tensile steel very well, but given that they don't make much more than spokes...it tells me that he knows his metals, but only in tension. ;)

Maybe I like being the devil's advocate of the group, but I'll remain quizzical because I don't want to be the person face first in the pavement saying "Damn...should've not tried to save that last gram..."

[Charles M]

:D ...

Devils advocate is one (very simple) thing, assuming these guys background is bad simply because your contacts are or that they're not qualified to build a wheel or have a website is maybe something else...



Cippo and 11 are not bad sources... I'm debateable...

[MattTuck]

I don't want to be the person face first in the pavement saying "Damn...should've not tried to save that last gram..."

"The gram that broke the rider's face". I like it.

[oldpotatoe]

According to what standard? In Pebble Beach over the
weekend people were spending over $6 million for a car.
So what? It's just bike stuff. Relax and enjoy.

Not sweated up at all, thanks. Utility vs price comes to mind is all and I do get to have an opinion, discussion group, correct? Discussing the ' merits' of $2600 wheels. If you love them, go buy them, if I think they are excessive, I will say so.

Would love to have a boattail Alfa..but it's too expensive.

[oldpotatoe]

[
I would guess we all think 32 spokes means durable and wheelsmith possibly pops to some of our more metal fixated minds. In that case it might interest you to know that it's the good-old wheelsmith founder that is building these...

Actually when I think of 32 spokes, DT pops into my head...

$2600 on the website. I guess they are now a great value since they are so inexpensive.

[firerescuefin]

Pez,

We live in a world where companies overpromise and underdeliver. A lot of people on this forum may not review bikes for a living and understand the nuances of wheel building, but many have technical backgrounds or work in fields where similar technologies are used. I cringe when I hear things like "zero failure" technologies, especially when they are used in a new product. I work in a career field that is pushing the boundaries with regard to weight, performance, and survivability, and frankly most products do not "deliver the goods."

As broad as your experiences are, you cannot speak to the long term ridability/survivability of these wheels, and honestly is the same care and diligence going to apply as they are making the 1000th pair as the prototypes/first runs. IF they are hemoraging money will the raw materials they source be of the same quality as the first runs.

I did not see anyone running down the company in their post(s). I see a lot of skeptical people....and rightly so. As I said in my previous post, they may be better than sliced bread (I can't say one way or another)....but don't throw out a press release, marketing jargon, and talk about "zero failure" technologies, and expect people to jump on the band wagon.

Give em hell when you review them.


Geoff

[cippoforlife]

First, a few thoughts...
- I'm with Pez - people are skeptical with absolutely no basis for it. If these babies fold up on me on a hairpin descent (and I live), I'll be the first in line to sue the pants off Madfiber...but I am not expecting that to happen.
- Can't tell you about the tech details, but I do think that given these are priced well below Lightweight, Mavic CCU, etc. it is hard to say they aren't decent value, though I understand that is all very relative.
- Oh, and though I am no professional racer, I feel I am fairly unbiased (thanks Pez)...I sell the stuff I don't love, and keep what I do...no real outside influences to speak of, though I am considering opening up my own shop within the year :cool: I guess that will immediately mean I am no longer trustworthy.

Now, on to a quick ride report...

I threw on some sexy FMB 22's last night (which went on very easily, btw)and went for a night-time spin through the empty streets of Toronto.
Here are my initial impressions:
- Even though these were slightly above claimed weight, the wind-up is non-existent...extremely light wheels tend to have this effect.
- Stiffness is pretty awesome. I was cranking the watts to my max, and felt no flex whatsoever...on par with Lightweights, and perhaps even a step above my old Mavic CCUs. At my height and weight (6'2" / 175 lbs) I can usually detect even minimal flex.
- Ride quality is actually pretty good...I'd say slightly smoother than most deep aero wheelsets, though the FMB's may account for some of that. In any event, these are not what I would characterize as super-harsh...they seem capable of deflecting a bit of vibration without losing stiffness.
- A major compliment to the White Industries rear hub as well...very smooth and TOTALLY SILENT. No freewheeling noise whatsoever, which is just damn cool.
- Braking was very solid, and pretty silent. I'd say about an 8/10 on both fronts. Impressive.

- At this point, I have only two complaints:
1. Front hub does not seem to spin all that smoothly. I've had other wheelsets that lose friction as they break in, so I'm hoping the same happens in this case, though any tips are appreciated.
2. The stickers are of somewhat dubious quality - already a bit of peeling going on, though I will almost certainly remove them anyways, so maybe this point should in fact be a positive!

I've posted a few more pics at the bottom of the blog entry, which can be found here:
http://mikesbikeparts.blogspot.com/2010/08/madfiber-wheels-1st-in-canada.html

Here is one quick shot with the wheels on my Passoni, also sporting a new Edge stem:
http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq348/cippoforlife/IMG_0882.jpg

Best,
Mike

[firerescuefin]

First, a few thoughts...
- I'm with Pez - people are skeptical with absolutely no basis for it.



Trek carbon steerers shearing in numbers + Rsys wheels exploding and going through multiple recalls + new and unproven technology (in this application by this company) = Legitimate basis for being skeptical

[William]

You want a real world test? Send them to me. At a 6' 6" and a lean 260 with the ability to crush trees with my quads.....I'll push them to the limit. If they hold up under me, any one can ride them care free. :cool:

They can get the coveted seal:

" William tested. William approved!"



:D

William

[fiamme red]

You want a real world test? Send them to me. At a 6' 6" and a lean 260 with the ability to crush trees with my quads.....I'll push them to the limit. If they hold up under me, any one can ride them care free. :cool:

They can get the coveted seal:

" William tested. William approved!"Mr. Squirrel would like to test them too. ;)

[William]

Mr. Squirrel would like to test them too. ;)


I would send him a very polite invitation to help me test the spo...I mean <hehehe> the wheels. :D




William

[ergott]

Trek carbon steerers shearing in numbers + Rsys wheels exploding and going through multiple recalls + new and unproven technology (in this application by this company) = Legitimate basis for being skeptical

If you really want to compare these wheels for design/material merit, you are using bad examples. Lightweight wheels have an excellent reputation (tensioned carbon fibre spokes). Spinergy Rev X wasn't too bad either. I'm pretty sure these are tensioned the same way. They glue the spokes in place before the hub is inserted. By spreading the left and right spokes into position on the hub, tension is applied. They don't compress like the R-Sys.

Trek carbon steerers is so far out of this discussion. You would have to question every carbon component if you used that example. I got news for you. Every material that has been used for bikes has failed in one design of another (steel, titanium, aluminium, etc.). I guess that means we shouldn't trust bikes.

I'm fine sitting back and letting early adopters sort out the longevity, but it's silly to be an alarmist at this point. 11.4's anecdotes alone are enough for me to at least keep an open mind. That guy forgets more about bikes than
most and he's one of the most experienced guys that still post here.

[sg8357]

These were actually designed with some of the state-of-the-art zero-failure technologies developed at Boeing for attack fighter wings and such. As such, I think they probably suffice for a couple bicycle wheels.

Fighter tech tends to be 15+ years old by the time it takes to the air,
say 787 instead, much shorter design cycle, newer stuff.

Airplane parts have actual trained mechanics that report problems to the
FAA and Boeing, bike parts get folklore based maintenance, bike stuff
needs to be extra idiot proof.

Scott G.
Not a Six Sigma Black Belt, but I know a couple.

[firerescuefin]

Eric,

If you had read my previous post, you would have read that I am open to the idea.

The examples I used are'nt bad ones, they're great ones. They are from much more reputable companies (with much more to lose) rolling out products that they didn't believe would fail...failing.

By the way marketing hype does not equal reality (absolutely). Dip-n-Dots is not the future of ice cream, but they've been using that slogan for about 15 years ;)

What I am not open to is people talking about a brand new company using a relatively unproven technology/appplication and questioning why people may be skeptical.

[PoppaWheelie]

What, no comments about the combination of $2500 wheels and platform pedals?

You guys are getting soft.

[cippoforlife]

I'm saying your skepticism is based on nothing real.

And the pedals were to ride to work today.
So swamped, I have no other chance to ride this week.

-Mike

[mike p]

To me the wheels look great, and sound great, but I'm still skeptical ( legit reason or not). Hope they turnout to be a great wheel. Lane, Pez and Eric help my confidence a little but I'll still let someone else be test pilot for a year or two. I also like to see something that can be fixed locally and not have to be shipped cross country and wait weeks or months to be repaired.

Mike

[1centaur]

Life is sufficient basis for skepticism. Carbon wheel after carbon wheel not enduring in the market due to construction problems not anticipated by the experienced engineers who built and tested them is MORE than enough justification for skepticism. But there's nothing wrong with skepticism; it's the more experienced cousin of credulity. What would be wrong is denying adequate proof. What exists so far is limited proof and credible engineering thoughts, the latter being necessary but not sufficient. Skeptics help bring out the right questions until they have been answered. Embrace skeptics until the case is closed.


from Dictionary.com:
skep·tic
   /ˈskɛptɪk/ Show Spelled[skep-tik] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
2.
a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others.
3.
a person who doubts the truth of a religion, esp. Christianity, or of important elements of it.
4.
( initial capital letter ) Philosophy .
a.
a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible.
b.
any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind.

[Mr. Squirrel]

these look like very nice wheels...they make my little heart go pitter-patter. please keep in mind that even spinergy rev x wheels are still on the road today. they know the wheels are still being used, both recreationally and for racing. spinergy recommends that they be checked regularly for cracks or hairline fractures. they do not say that they shouldn't be ridden at all (they received some what of a bad rap). all carbon fiber products, should be inspected on a regular basis as they age. not checking them regularly would be nuts. i will be adding sets of these to my collection as they show up locally and i will report back my inspections.

dear mr. william,
Two little squirrels fell in a bucket of tube glue. The first squirrel quickly gave up and drowned. The second squirrel, wouldn't quit. he struggled so hard that eventually he churned that tube glue until it hardened and crawled out. other then being stoned from the fumes and talking to his goldfish about the dangers of over feeding for a few hours he was just fine.

mr. squirrel

[Tony Edwards]

Respectfully it seems goofy to me to maintain that there's no basis for skepticism of such a novel design, built to such stringent weight standards. Actually they remind me a little of the original Spinergies, and we know how that story ended . . .

It's certainly quite possible these are exceptionally strong wheels, but that is unproven at this point. I'm sure I'm not the only person on this forum to have suffered a severe injury due to a lightweight parts failure (thank you, Sampson, for your ****ty ti BB and my resulting dislocated shoulder), and I would just as soon not suffer another. I will leave these wheels for someone else.

[Charles M]

What we're doing now is twisting words a bit...


There's plenty of room for skeptics. I am a Skeptic.

What's happaning here seems a bit like that political ploy of covering over what your doing under a blanket term like "Patriot"...



I find the sources here that have hands on experience with the parts to be credible... Always have (and that despite not always agreeing with 11 or Cippo...).

I find some of the comparisons used in being "Skeptical" to have a lot less to do with this product than the poster's think...


It shows me they not only lack experience with this product but also lack relative experience with a few of the others mentioned as comperable for the sake of making negative assumtion...

[bozman]

Mike - Your Ridley is sweet!

[11.4]

I did not see anyone running down the company in their post(s). I see a lot of skeptical people....and rightly so. As I said in my previous post, they may be better than sliced bread (I can't say one way or another)....but don't throw out a press release, marketing jargon, and talk about "zero failure" technologies, and expect people to jump on the band wagon.

I strongly encourage you to reread your posts, including the post two down from the one quoted here. Your own posts are the most inflammatory on this forum.

I never suggest that these wheels, or any wheels, can't fail. I simply observe that they were designed and manufactured using sound principles. These are the same principles used to approve advanced aircraft and advanced medical devices -- before consumers ever get to experience any risk of failure.

And I AM a six sigma black belt and ran a $1.2 billion composites manufacturing business and have a Ph.D. in physical chemistry and materials science. Read what I said, not what you think I said. There's a difference. And please read your own posts again before you post. They are a bit on the polemic side. You don't do yourself justice.

[zap]

Life is sufficient basis for skepticism. Carbon wheel after carbon wheel not enduring in the market due to construction problems not anticipated by the experienced engineers who built and tested them is MORE than enough justification for skepticism. But there's nothing wrong with skepticism; it's the more experienced cousin of credulity. What would be wrong is denying adequate proof. What exists so far is limited proof and credible engineering thoughts, the latter being necessary but not sufficient. Skeptics help bring out the right questions until they have been answered. Embrace skeptics until the case is closed.



Lew comes to mind.

I just don't understand why a company would release an unfinished product for the public to see. It looks like sh*t and does not inspire confidence in the firm or the product. With the fairly recent Lew soap opera, no one should be surprised that skeptics would jump all over this.

[firerescuefin]

I strongly encourage you to reread your posts, including the post two down from the one quoted here. Your own posts are the most inflammatory on this forum.

I never suggest that these wheels, or any wheels, can't fail. I simply observe that they were designed and manufactured using sound principles. These are the same principles used to approve advanced aircraft and advanced medical devices -- before consumers ever get to experience any risk of failure
And I AM a six sigma black belt and ran a $1.2 billion composites manufacturing business and have a Ph.D. in physical chemistry and materials science. Read what I said, not what you think I said. There's a difference. And please read your own posts again before you post. They are a bit on the polemic side. You don't do yourself justice.


I made a decision to stop posting to this thread yesterday but the challenge of taking on 11.4 in this discussion is like being passed by Contador on a climb (sarcasm inserted)....you just got to take a dig.

I have a HSD (High School Diploma - Class of 91) 1.85 GPA
I served in the Air Force for 4 years.
I have an Undergraduate degree in Finance - University of Florida
I have a Masters Degree in Emergency Management - Arizona State
I am a six sigma green belt - honestly
I make about 75k working for a municipal fire department

Now that we got the my penis is smaller than yours out of the way.

In your first post you referred to "Zero failure technologies". To those that lack intelligence like myself and perhaps 1 or 2 others on this board. That sounds like Zero failure technology....like not failing. And honestly, when I have been presented items to purchase from commercial vendors in my industry (I'm just a dumb firefighter) and they use this terminology it does not mean zero failure at all...does it. Know your audience.

You brought Mavic (Rsys) into this conversation. If after multiple incidents and recalls you want to hail those wheels as a marvel of engineering, perhaps you could write a paper about how most people's perception of those wheels, that they would not be caught dead on them...(actually they made be caught dead on them depending upon the speed) is wrong. Perception is reality, and those with limited knowledge/intelligence like myself (and most that have to rely on common sense rather than acronyms after our names) believe those wheels are/or have been dangerous.

My previous posts were never intended to be inflammatory. Perhaps with my limited IQ, I was unable to decipher the nuances of your posts (in my world of single digit IQs, I am actually considered pretty smart). This one certainly is (inflammatory) for one reason in particular. Pulling the I am smarter than you card and you don't know what your talking about is rarely the "draw 4" card the user intended (I threw in the UNO reference for my fellow trailer parkers out there) It actually just makes you look like an (fill in the blank)...and 11.4, you clearly need to be lauded for the CEO/CFO/VIP/PHD that your are. I do not know the technical nuances of building a wheel with that technology...you do. By the way find a post where I said they're poorly made/not well engineered/ etc. I did call a friend/teammate of mine yesterday that is an Aeronatical engineer for Lockheed. I think he only has the Phd behind his name...but I thought that would suffice. He is also a national champion on the track, so I thought that he would understand the loading that the wheels may incur. He liked the technology but had some concerns......hmmm. His conclusion, "yeah, I would probably let them work the kinks out too"

As my fellow low IQ posters have pointed out, cycling is full of products that have underdelivered....some causing serious injury. I think the technology is exciting, but I am not going to jump on it. It looks like the smart guys like yourself will have an edge up on wheel selection for a couple of years...congrats

[spacemen3]

Those wheels look killer. Enjoy. :cool:

[duke]

I think they are great looking wheels with what sounds to me (no PhD but a lot of life experience) like cutting edge (for wheels) technology. Personally, I would ride them in a second, if they were offered. Ride them if you want to. Doesn't seem like they are worth getting all steamed up about. They are only bicycle wheels folks.
duke

[Derailer]

A contentious but highly enjoyable thread. Bravo!

[Mr. Squirrel]

you are all nuts. please go ride your bikes...preferably by my tree.

mr. squirrel

[11.4]

I made a decision to stop posting to this thread yesterday but the challenge of taking on 11.4 in this discussion is like being passed by Contador on a climb (sarcasm inserted)....you just got to take a dig.

I have a HSD (High School Diploma - Class of 91) 1.85 GPA
I served in the Air Force for 4 years.
I have an Undergraduate degree in Finance - University of Florida
I have a Masters Degree in Emergency Management - Arizona State
I am a six sigma green belt - honestly
I make about 75k working for a municipal fire department

Now that we got the my penis is smaller than yours out of the way.

In your first post you referred to "Zero failure technologies". To those that lack intelligence like myself and perhaps 1 or 2 others on this board. That sounds like Zero failure technology....like not failing. And honestly, when I have been presented items to purchase from commercial vendors in my industry (I'm just a dumb firefighter) and they use this terminology it does not mean zero failure at all...does it. Know your audience.

You brought Mavic (Rsys) into this conversation. If after multiple incidents and recalls you want to hail those wheels as a marvel of engineering, perhaps you could write a paper about how most people's perception of those wheels, that they would not be caught dead on them...(actually they made be caught dead on them depending upon the speed) is wrong. Perception is reality, and those with limited knowledge/intelligence like myself (and most that have to rely on common sense rather than acronyms after our names) believe those wheels are/or have been dangerous.

My previous posts were never intended to be inflammatory. Perhaps with my limited IQ, I was unable to decipher the nuances of your posts (in my world of single digit IQs, I am actually considered pretty smart). This one certainly is (inflammatory) for one reason in particular. Pulling the I am smarter than you card and you don't know what your talking about is rarely the "draw 4" card the user intended (I threw in the UNO reference for my fellow trailer parkers out there) It actually just makes you look like an (fill in the blank)...and 11.4, you clearly need to be lauded for the CEO/CFO/VIP/PHD that your are. I do not know the technical nuances of building a wheel with that technology...you do. By the way find a post where I said they're poorly made/not well engineered/ etc. I did call a friend/teammate of mine yesterday that is an Aeronatical engineer for Lockheed. I think he only has the Phd behind his name...but I thought that would suffice. He is also a national champion on the track, so I thought that he would understand the loading that the wheels may incur. He liked the technology but had some concerns......hmmm. His conclusion, "yeah, I would probably let them work the kinks out too"

As my fellow low IQ posters have pointed out, cycling is full of products that have underdelivered....some causing serious injury. I think the technology is exciting, but I am not going to jump on it. It looks like the smart guys like yourself will have an edge up on wheel selection for a couple of years...congrats


Thank you for reinforcing my point.

[Climb01742]

from Dictionary.com:
skep·tic
   /ˈskɛptɪk/ Show Spelled[skep-tik] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
2.
a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others.
3.
a person who doubts the truth of a religion, esp. Christianity, or of important elements of it.
4.
( initial capital letter ) Philosophy .
a.
a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible.
b.
any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind.

(tangent alert because i have no clue about these wheels but this thread interests me, philosophically...)

both skepticism and belief are independent of the truth. the truth or validity of an idea or a product exist independent of an observer and the opinion of the observer. we are actually superfluous to the truth.

i think there's an interesting trend in modern life to err on the side of skepticism, to favor skepticism. to doubt is seen closer to wisdom than to believe. i don't know. skepticism just seems easier. and based on definitions 4a and 4b, safer.

(the tangent is over. sorry. back to carbon wheels.)

[1centaur]

This is an odd thread because I don't think there's real/factual disagreement at the heart of it.

We have seen credible reasons why these wheels are well made and won't be a problem, presented by credible people. I don't think there's been any disagreement by anybody on that point.

We have seen concern that credible-sounding engineering has preceded unanticipated problems in cycling and other products. I don't think anybody on this thread would disagree with that.

But we have also seen the skeptical view treated as dismissal of the credible reasons, and obvious examples of failed products viewed as off topic because different/lesser engineering and other issues were involved than appear to be the case with these wheels. That treatment includes the assumption of intent to stir up emotions at the expense of rationality. Having re-read everybody's statements multiple times, this leap seems to be the problem. I see no such intent. If firerescuefin's words are re-read with a presumption that they represent generic skepticism of the sort to be expected from a typical cyclist, not inflammatory intent, I think it would help. Best not to react to presumed emotions.

And yes climb, skepticism is on the rise and it is easier. I suppose if we were pop psychologists we'd blame Watergate :)

[Derailer]

The epistemology of carbon fiber wheels. Now I've seen it all.

[firerescuefin]

Centaur...I could not have written that better myself.

Geoff

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . is not a serious cyclist, not a Six Sigma anything, and is still working on that first college degree.

But I know she would take one look at these things and say, "Gee, Dad, those look pretty sketchy."

And they do. They may work fine, but as others have said, I think I will leave the real world product testing to other early adopter types. To me they look like an origami exercise. Folded carbon paper . . . :eek:

BBD

[Charles M]

Fair enough...

To a few folks with a bit more experience with the material and product and with hands on use, they look fine and work even better.

On another forum, a guy who also has a teeny bit of carbon chops...

this is a lot of surface area between the flange(star pattern facing inside) and the spoke. done right i wouldn't question its integrity.

the spokes are at least .070" thick and at ~ .5" width they can take a lot.




Long term we'll know more.

[BengeBoy]

Hey fellow Jayhawks -- this article says the engineer that designed them is from the University of Kansas (actually the article says he is from Kansas University, but proper style is University of Kansas).

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/mad-fiber-carbon-road-wheels-first-look-26205

That should raise everyone's level of concern -- the guy who discovered Pluto was also a graduate of the University of Kansas, and we found out later that Pluto isn't even a planet.

That's the extent of my scientific contribution to this thread.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I am a University of Kansas Graduate, and you all KNOW how reliable I am! :D

Just further proof their standards for admission are laughably low! :rolleyes:

BBD

[Blue Jays]

These wheels look extremely cool and are likely well-designed.
My preference is to be a late-adopter on bold new technologies.
Crashes *really* hurt. Crashes due to product failure add insult to injury.
Hope these wheels are the bee's knees!

[BengeBoy]

I met the MadFiber guys today at a bike shop grand opening here in the Seattle area.

Seem like a terrific group of guys, with some serious cycling industry / bike shop experience behind the folks I met.

The wheels look amazing in person.

I offered to be an unpaid test rider but while they said I'm certainly fat enough to give the wheels a good work out they had actually had even fatter people on them, so they politely turned down my offer.

They said they'd been busy shipping wheels out to paying customer in any case...

[Random]

Today I had a chance to take the MadFiber wheels for an hour's spin. About 2000 feet of up and down. Net net, these are impressive. I am convinced to own a pair, but I can't bear dealing with glue again so I will likely wait until the clincher's are out next year.

Here is the nitty gritty.

They were well made and finished. Plenty of attention to detail. They weigh in as spec'd 1025 grams. They looked much better on the bike than off.

They were light as a feather. Alarmingly so. But the ride put me at ease.

First, they were rigid and felt substantial. They rolled smoothly. Mine were fitted with 21mm tires and the ride was very bright and crisp. I would more likely ride 23mm or even 25mm, but at 110 psi the wheels were not at all harsh.

Second, the cork brake pads supplied with the wheels were confident on the fiberglass braking surface. There was no stutter or squeal. They did not fade at all on the downhills.

Third, they windup quickly. Very responsive. In the saddle on mild ascents they felt nice. But it was out of the saddle on the steep bits where these wheels showed off.

Fourth, there were plenty of 13-17% grades on our route. When you stand on the pedals these wheels surge. This is where I would expect the biggest advantage is. Especially in competition you could see attacking with abandon. Even on the steepest ramps I was able to accelerate. Combined with the other riding characteristics, this ability to accelerate at will on the climbs puts me over the top.

Fifth, on the ascent I was worried that the wheels would need my focused attention. But I cruised down a long drop at 45 mph and they were rock solid. It cut through the corners without any trouble. These wheels disappear so you can focus on the road.

As for durability, time will tell. But Ric Hjertberg is one of the most respected thought leaders in the wheel business. They have been remarkably impressive in thinking through the design and materials. Nothing has been left to chance. The questions raised in this forum just scratch the surface of the issues they have had to wrestle with. They convinced me that taking the leap was not an extraordinary risk.

[Lifelover]

No question that looks can be deceiving but I'm with BBD daughter on this one. They "Look" sketchy.

While they maybe the strongest thing since 32 hole OP's, sometimes appearances are everything and can make or break a product.

[AndrewS]

I'd enjoy a head to head comparison of these wheels with the some sub-1000 gram project wheels I saw on another board:

No name Chinese tubular carbon rim, a few bladed spokes and some superlight hub for about $500 a wheelset.

I wonder which set of wheels takes more nerve?

[BillG]

Today I had a chance to take the MadFiber wheels for an hour's spin. About 2000 feet of up and down. Net net, these are impressive. I am convinced to own a pair, but I can't bear dealing with glue again so I will likely wait until the clincher's are out next year.

Here is the nitty gritty.

They were well made and finished. Plenty of attention to detail. They weigh in as spec'd 1025 grams. They looked much better on the bike than off.

They were light as a feather. Alarmingly so. But the ride put me at ease.

First, they were rigid and felt substantial. They rolled smoothly. Mine were fitted with 21mm tires and the ride was very bright and crisp. I would more likely ride 23mm or even 25mm, but at 110 psi the wheels were not at all harsh.

Second, the cork brake pads supplied with the wheels were confident on the fiberglass braking surface. There was no stutter or squeal. They did not fade at all on the downhills.

Third, they windup quickly. Very responsive. In the saddle on mild ascents they felt nice. But it was out of the saddle on the steep bits where these wheels showed off.

Fourth, there were plenty of 13-17% grades on our route. When you stand on the pedals these wheels surge. This is where I would expect the biggest advantage is. Especially in competition you could see attacking with abandon. Even on the steepest ramps I was able to accelerate. Combined with the other riding characteristics, this ability to accelerate at will on the climbs puts me over the top.

Fifth, on the ascent I was worried that the wheels would need my focused attention. But I cruised down a long drop at 45 mph and they were rock solid. It cut through the corners without any trouble. These wheels disappear so you can focus on the road.

As for durability, time will tell. But Ric Hjertberg is one of the most respected thought leaders in the wheel business. They have been remarkably impressive in thinking through the design and materials. Nothing has been left to chance. The questions raised in this forum just scratch the surface of the issues they have had to wrestle with. They convinced me that taking the leap was not an extraordinary risk.

Thanks for this review. I want some!

[MattTuck]

I met the MadFiber guys today at a bike shop grand opening here in the Seattle area.

Seem like a terrific group of guys, with some serious cycling industry / bike shop experience behind the folks I met.

The wheels look amazing in person.

I offered to be an unpaid test rider but while they said I'm certainly fat enough to give the wheels a good work out they had actually had even fatter people on them, so they politely turned down my offer.

They said they'd been busy shipping wheels out to paying customer in any case...

Curious what the bike shop was... any recommendations for a good shop around here?

[BengeBoy]

Curious what the bike shop was... any recommendations for a good shop around here?


By "around here" I assume you mean Seattle?

My "go to" shop when I need something really important done is Elliott Bay Bikes, downtown, where Bill Davidson makes bikes and the paint/frame shop and mechanics can do/fix anything

Shops I enjoy shopping/looking at include:
- Counterbalance Cycles, on the Burke Gilman, great selection of brands
- Recycled Cycles, near the U
- R&E Cycles, just to see what is up w/their Rodriguez bikes, always something interesting ont he floor
- Freerange Cycles, Fremont, commuter bike stuff
- 2020 Cycles, when I want to feel old and unhip

The grand opening I referred to above is Veloce Velo, their new store on Mercer Island. Good selection of high end frames.

Montlake Cycles has a great reputation, but I can't say I've ever bought anything there.

If I'm after random accessories (cold weather clothing, blinkies, pedals, shoes, etc.) the best selections are at Gregg's Cycles (Greenlake store in particular, sometimes Bellevue) and the REI downtown store. REI is particularly good in cold weather/rainy weather riding gear.

[11.4]

Curious what the bike shop was... any recommendations for a good shop around here?

It's not on the radar for a lot of people except serious racers, but check out Herriott Sport Performance. They've worked with Madfiber from the beginning, they're staffed by national level track and road racers. Lots of serious race equipment and generally high-end. Best race-oriented shop in the region.

[flydhest]

i think there's an interesting trend in modern life to err on the side of skepticism, to favor skepticism. to doubt is seen closer to wisdom than to believe. i don't know. skepticism just seems easier.


Somehow, I just think you're wrong.

[11.4]

Somehow, I just think you're wrong.

Good one. How skeptical.

[BumbleBeeDave]

i think there's an interesting trend in modern life to err on the side of skepticism, to favor skepticism. to doubt is seen closer to wisdom than to believe. i don't know. skepticism just seems easier . . .

. . . bot forgive me if, after my recent experience, I am definitely going to err on the side of skepticism if the consequences involve a wheel coming apart and me crashing at speed! :eek:

BBD

[BillG]

. . . bot forgive me if, after my recent experience, I am definitely going to err on the side of skepticism if the consequences involve a wheel coming apart and me crashing at speed! :eek:

BBD

Just tighten those nice looking qrs.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Just tighten those nice looking qrs.

Everybody's a comedian . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[firerescuefin]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/interbike/interbike-tech-mad-fiber-wheels_141948

[rice rocket]

That read like he regurgitated the marketing brochure.