sram-agnolo?

[thegunner]

i recall reading that a campy shifter pulls almost exactly the same amount of cable as a sram shifter does... per click. just wondering if anyone's had success with this? i tried campy 9 speed shifters with shimano 10 speed cassette, and that was... passable, but not terrific. i ask because i would love the ability to get across multiple cogs with a single throw.

before all the campy advocates cry foul, and call me a nonpurist who should go full campy, i just don't have the funds right now, else i would. chorus sure is sexy :p but i really like the look of my sram red crank.

anyway, i thought i'd try maybe using centaur 10 speed levers with full sram otherwise and see how it'd go like that?

[Dave]

I've explained why this shouldn't (edited from won't) work a number of times. SRAM shifters pull a uniform 3mm of cable for every shift. Campy shifters only average 2.83mm and the pulls are not the same. The pulls are 2.5mm five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice. After the first five pulls with the Campy shifters, all you have is 12.5mm of cable pull, but 15mm is needed. That's nearly a full cog's worth of pull that's lacking. Won't work well at all.

[toasttoast]

i recall reading that a campy shifter pulls almost exactly the same amount of cable as a sram shifter does... per click. just wondering if anyone's had success with this? i tried campy 9 speed shifters with shimano 10 speed cassette, and that was... passable, but not terrific. i ask because i would love the ability to get across multiple cogs with a single throw.

before all the campy advocates cry foul, and call me a nonpurist who should go full campy, i just don't have the funds right now, else i would. chorus sure is sexy :p but i really like the look of my sram red crank.

anyway, i thought i'd try maybe using centaur 10 speed levers with full sram otherwise and see how it'd go like that?

you can use the Red crankset on a campy drivetrain no problems...

[thegunner]

I've explained why this won't work a number of times. SRAM shifters pull a uniform 3mm of cable for every shift. Campy shifters only average 2.83mm and the pulls are not the same. The pulls are 2.5mm five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice. After the first five pulls with the Campy shifters, all you have is 12.5mm of cable pull, but 15mm is needed. That's nearly a full cog's worth of pull that's lacking. Won't work well at all.

ahh, didn't realize the non uniform pull per click thing... i was sippin' the leonard zinn kool-aid (http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/03/bikes-tech/can-you-run-campy-shifters-with-a-sram-drivetrain-sure-why-not_73404) and thought it could be worth a shot. i'll stick full sram if the alternative is less than crisp shifting.

you can use the Red crankset on a campy drivetrain no problems...

this i know, i was just sayin' i wouldn't go full campy :p

[that guy]

From what I understand, Campy and SRAM just do not play well together.

Campy and Shimano on the other hand....

Cyclocross magazine is big on this mix and matching. Here is their first article on the subject. (http://www.cxmagazine.com/shimano-campagnolo-ergopower-compatibility)

From my experience and what I've heard, pair a Campy lever with a one-less-cog shimano cassette with the cable hack method, or go down two cogs (10>8 speed) with no changes necessary. For example, you could pair a new 11 speed shifter with a 10 speed Shimano/SRAM cassette (good) or a 9 speed cassette (better).

FWIW I have a bike set up with 10 speed Centaur shifters, a Rival crankset, a SunTour FD, an 8 speed Shimano cassette and a 9 speed 105 derailleur. Shifts perfectly. I call it the SRimanErgoTour group.

So really, if you want to use those shifters on a full-SRAM bike, you would need a new rear derailleur (Shimano 8 or 9 would probably be best) and a new cassette (also 8 or 9). That's about it.

[oldpotatoe]

i recall reading that a campy shifter pulls almost exactly the same amount of cable as a sram shifter does... per click. just wondering if anyone's had success with this? i tried campy 9 speed shifters with shimano 10 speed cassette, and that was... passable, but not terrific. i ask because i would love the ability to get across multiple cogs with a single throw.

before all the campy advocates cry foul, and call me a nonpurist who should go full campy, i just don't have the funds right now, else i would. chorus sure is sexy :p but i really like the look of my sram red crank.

anyway, i thought i'd try maybe using centaur 10 speed levers with full sram otherwise and see how it'd go like that?

Campagnolo 10s shifters when mated to a Sram rear derailleur, shifts shimano/sram 10s spacing(closer together than Campagnolo 10s spacing). I saw this in action on a bike lennard Zinn put together.

Campagnolo 10s shifters and Campagnolo rear derailleur shifts a shimano 9s cogset and chain pretty well. Differences between Campagnolo 10s and shimano 9s, ctr cog to center cog, is closer than Campagnolo 10s and shimano 10s.

[thegunner]

case closed, i borrowed a pair of veloce 10s shifters from shop... threw em on my bike and tried it. next to perfect. no sloppier than any full sram system i've ever used. i'm convinced enough that i'll probably be trading out my force gear for a pair of chorus 10s levers.

FYI for anyone interested in trying this. :D

[Dave]

Makes me think that SRAM is fibbing about their uniform cable pull. FWIW, no SRAM owner has ever volunteered to measure each of the cable pulls. Even Lennard Zinn didn't bother. He just measured the total pull and divided by 9. His number for Campy did not agree with mine and I've checked it several times on different bikes.

If the shifting is still good by shift 5-6, then SRAM must use less cable pull than they claim. You can't be off by almost a cog's worth of cable pull and get good results.

[Dave]

The cog spacing has nothing to do with a Campy 10 shifter operating a Shimano 9 drivetrain. The reason that it works is both shifters have the same 2.8mm average cable pull. The Shimano RD will then travel the correct amount for a Shimano cassette and a Campy RD will travel the correct amount for a Campy cassette. The difference in the 9 speed cogs spacing is 4.55-4.32mm = .23mm of 9 speed and 4.15-3.95 = .2mm for 10 speed.

[thegunner]

Makes me think that SRAM is fibbing about their uniform cable pull. FWIW, no SRAM owner has ever volunteered to measure each of the cable pulls. Even Lennard Zinn didn't bother. He just measured the total pull and divided by 9. His number for Campy did not agree with mine and I've checked it several times on different bikes.

If the shifting is still good by shift 5-6, then SRAM must use less cable pull than they claim. You can't be off by almost a cog's worth of cable pull and get good results.

i did actually (not to the same precision i.e. eyeballing it :p ), but it appears the latter shifts pull more cable, which makes sense given the design of the RD's pivot point. i don't have numbers, but perhaps this works because of and not in spite of the differences between campy and sram RDs?

[Dave]

i did actually (not to the same precision), but it appears the latter shifts pull more cable, which makes sense given the design of the RD's pivot point. i don't have numbers, but perhaps this works because of and not in spite of the differences between campy and sram RDs?

What should happen with this setup is a large lag in cable pull after the first five shifts that remains through shifts 6 and 7. Only on shifts 8 and 9 does Campy's larger cable pull make up some of the losses, but still not nearly all of it.

What I'd like to see is someone who owns a SRAM drivetrain take the time to measure the cable pulls. All I do is put the shifter in the first cog position to start. I wrap some masking tape around the cable, just ahead of the cable stop on the chainstay. I go through all of the clicks and note how much the sharp leading edge of the tape moves after each shift. I write down each value and repeat the process 3 times to prove that the values are accurate and repeatable. With SRAM, a metric rule with .5 or 1mm marking should work great, since they claim to have a uniform 3mm cable pull.

[Pete Serotta]

Thanks DAVE!!


I've explained why this won't work a number of times. SRAM shifters pull a uniform 3mm of cable for every shift. Campy shifters only average 2.83mm and the pulls are not the same. The pulls are 2.5mm five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice. After the first five pulls with the Campy shifters, all you have is 12.5mm of cable pull, but 15mm is needed. That's nearly a full cog's worth of pull that's lacking. Won't work well at all.


HE is the resident Campy expert and I will be buy brew when I next get out to Colo. :beer: :beer: PETE

[thegunner]

What should happen with this setup is a large lag in cable pull after the first five shifts that remains through shifts 6 and 7. Only on shifts 8 and 9 does Campy's larger cable pull make up some of the losses, but still not nearly all of it.

What I'd like to see is someone who owns a SRAM drivetrain take the time to measure the cable pulls. All I do is put the shifter in the first cog position to start. I wrap some masking tape around the cable, just ahead of the cable stop on the chainstay. I go through all of the clicks and note how much the sharp leading edge of the tape moves after each shift. I write down each value and repeat the process 3 times to prove that the values are accurate and repeatable. With SRAM, a metric rule with .5 or 1mm marking should work great, since they claim to have a uniform 3mm cable pull.

i understand how to do it, just lazy is all. what i do know is that the shifts are fine through the entire range (nothing wrong on 6 or 7 as there should be)... it's not forming odd chainlines on any of the cogs, and i'm of the camp of, 'if it works it works.'

i trust your measurements to a tee, and i'm not saying you're incorrect in anything you've stated, but i saw with my own eyes that this works.

[Dave]

I'm just one of those people that needs to know why a mismatched drivetrain works. Most are easily explained, like the Campy 10 shifters with Shimano 8 drivetrain. If the average cable pulls are the same 2.8mm, then it should work fine, particularly since Shimano uses gradually increasing cable pulls, like Campy.

Using Campy 10 shifters with Shimano 9 requires a cobbled-up cable attachment that lengthens the lever arm on the RD to reduce it's travel, since Shimano 9 only needs an average cable pull of 2.5mm and the shifter pull a much larger 2.8mm. The cable attachment becomes critical since it's making the correction to the RD travel.

I'm working with limited information on the SRAM 10/Campy 10 issue, since I only know what SRAM claims their cable pulls are 3mm and uniform. Zinn measured the average to be a larger 3.1mm. You can't be very far off on the total cable pull and have a system magically work.

[Dave]

I'll add one more comment on another mismatched setup. Apparently some are using Campy 11 shifters to operate a Shimano 9 system. The reported cable pull for the Shimano system is an average 2.5mm. Campy 11 shifters pull an average of 2.62mm, by my meaurements. That's not a huge amount of excess cable pull, but to figure out what should be going on, all you have to do is take 2.62/2.5 and multiply times the 4.32mm Shimano cogs spacing. The result is the RD should be moving an average of 4.53mm per shift, which just happens to be almost the same as Campy 9's 4.55mm spacing.

Changing the shift cable attachment point to be a little further from the clamp bolt could correct the overtravel, but it might be tricky to get the right amount. It wouldn't take much.

[thegunner]

I'll add one more comment on another mismatched setup. Apparently some are using Campy 11 shifters to operate a Shimano 9 system. The reported cable pull for the Shimano system is an average 2.5mm. Campy 11 shifters pull an average of 2.62mm, by my meaurements. That's not a huge amount of excess cable pull, but to figure out what should be going on, all you have to do is take 2.62/2.5 and multiply times the 4.32mm Shimano cogs spacing. The result is the RD should be moving an average of 4.53mm per shift, which just happens to be almost the same as Campy 9's 4.55mm spacing.

Changing the shift cable attachment point to be a little further from the clamp bolt could correct the overtravel, but it might be tricky to get the right amount. It wouldn't take much.

give me a few days until i get to school, i'll measure the SRAM pull vs. campy pull issue with a bit more accuracy.

[John M]

I completely concur with Dave's math, but I will suggest that one reason why the mathematical mismatch can work is that if the drivetrain is set up so that things are set perfectly for the middle cog, the error at the 1st and 10th cog would be only half that across the whole cassette. This may be well within the margin of error of the components. Because dropout geometry, chainstay length, and RD hangers differ across frames, actual performance may vary from user to user.

[thegunner]

allow me to add further confusion to this mess then, i tuned it to the small cog...

[oliver1850]

.

[oldpotatoe]

i recall reading that a campy shifter pulls almost exactly the same amount of cable as a sram shifter does... per click. just wondering if anyone's had success with this? i tried campy 9 speed shifters with shimano 10 speed cassette, and that was... passable, but not terrific. i ask because i would love the ability to get across multiple cogs with a single throw.

before all the campy advocates cry foul, and call me a nonpurist who should go full campy, i just don't have the funds right now, else i would. chorus sure is sexy :p but i really like the look of my sram red crank.

anyway, i thought i'd try maybe using centaur 10 speed levers with full sram otherwise and see how it'd go like that?

As mentioned, Lennard Zinn tried this, Campagnolo 10s ERGO and sram rear derailleur and shimano 10s cogset, I saw it and played with it and it shifted just fine, regardless of cable pull measurements that may or may not be accurate.

I have also installed many 10s ERGO/Campagnolo RD setups on shimano 9s cogsets and chains and they work well also. Much better than Campagnolo 10s and shimano/sram 10s cogsets.

Sometimes ya just gotta try it to see. One of the advantages of seeing a lot of 'stuff' inna bike shop. I was surprized to see that Campagnolo front ders work great with shimano 10s STI, but not with 9s, for example.

[Dave]

Thanks for the cable measurement data. It's just what I expected - showing that Zinn did a poor job of measuring the SRAM cable pull, just like he did the Campy cable pull. He got them both wrong.

What this does not explain is how the Campy 10 shifters, that pull far too little cable for the first five shifts, could do a very good job of operating a SRAM RD. The RD should be far off position by the 5th shift.

If this mismatch works, then you should be able to use a Campy 11 shifters with Campy 10 speed, Shimano 9 and maybe even Shimano 10. Shimano 10 has an average pull of 2.3mm. The average 2.6mm from Campy is 11 is not as far off as the SRAM 10/Campy 10 mismatch, but it would overtravel, not under travel.

The only reason that you can get a mismatch like Campy 10 shifters to operate a Shimano 9 system is by rerouting the the shift cable, so the RD's lever arm is longer and the throw is reduced. A Campy 10 shifter with an average cable pull of 2.8mm would not shift a Shimano 9 system, requiring only 2.5mm, if this was not done. It should shift a Shimano 8 system, since they both use nearly identical cables pulls.

As noted, perfect adjustment of the RD helps distribute the error, but usually an under shifting RD is less tolerable than an overshifting one.

A J-tek shiftmate is made to reduce the error with the Campy 10 shifters and SRAM 10 RD, but the folks at J-tek know that they are not fixing the non-uniform cable pull issue. If the average pull is increased with a shiftmate, it improves the pull on the first five shifts, but makes the last four greater than needed.

One other thing I'd want to check is how sloppy the main pivot is on a SRAM RD. If the RD is loose enough, all you need to do is get the chain to jump to the next cog and the RD will align itself to that cog, if it's got enough slop.

I've noticed quite a bit of axial play at the main pivot with a well-used Campy RD. I tighten mine up with a shim beind the C-clip on the main pivot (where the RD bolts to the frame). A new RD might have as much as .008 inch (.2mm) of axial play, when relatively new. I put an .031 inch shim on an old 10 speed RD and reduced the play to a better than new .002 inch. That RD (with a little mod to the cable clamp bolt) is shifting an 11 speed drivetrain nicely. I took the time to check the RD alignment without the chain in place and noted that the 10 speed RD did not have quite enough travel to reach the largset cog properly. That why the cable clamp bolt mod was done - to shorten the lever arm and increase the travel.

[thegunner]

As mentioned, Lennard Zinn tried this, Campagnolo 10s ERGO and sram rear derailleur and shimano 10s cogset, I saw it and played with it and it shifted just fine, regardless of cable pull measurements that may or may not be accurate.

I have also installed many 10s ERGO/Campagnolo RD setups on shimano 9s cogsets and chains and they work well also. Much better than Campagnolo 10s and shimano/sram 10s cogsets.

Sometimes ya just gotta try it to see. One of the advantages of seeing a lot of 'stuff' inna bike shop. I was surprized to see that Campagnolo front ders work great with shimano 10s STI, but not with 9s, for example.

yeah i'm glad i didn't have to sink the cost before trying it.

[that guy]

I just want to throw this thought in for consideration:

There is a big difference between "yes, it works" and "wow, it works very well"

:beer:

[GuyGadois]

I broke my wheel at Sea Otter and the only thing the support car had was SRAM (it is a SRAM sponsored event). They put on a SRAM wheel and it worked fine for 9 out 10 gears. I really didn't figure out which one wasn't working well as I was trying to stay close on the hill and hammer down the cork screw. It definitely worked in a pinch but was not as good as my existing Campy equipment. But, there was no time to make fine adjustments.

Guy

[r_mutt]

my mechanic, who is acknowledged by the racers in the area to be one of the top mechanics here runs the set-up that you are considering- SRAM drivetrain with 2010 Campy Centaur 10 speed shifters. he swears by it!

[thegunner]

I just want to throw this thought in for consideration:

There is a big difference between "yes, it works" and "wow, it works very well"

:beer:

i will say this. wow, it works very well :) oliver1850 confirmed it on his rig as well. i wouldn't even know i wasn't riding campy (not that i'd ever know what that feels like), but it sure matched sram shifters cog for cog

[Charles M]

Thanks for the cable measurement data. It's just what I expected - showing that Zinn did a poor job of measuring the SRAM cable pull, just like he did the Campy cable pull. He got them both wrong.

What this does not explain is how the Campy 10 shifters, that pull far too little cable for the first five shifts, could do a very good job of operating a SRAM RD. The RD should be far off position by the 5th shift.

If this mismatch works, then you should be able to use a Campy 11 shifters with Campy 10 speed, Shimano 9 and maybe even Shimano 10. Shimano 10 has an average pull of 2.3mm. The average 2.6mm from Campy is 11 is not as far off as the SRAM 10/Campy 10 mismatch, but it would overtravel, not under travel.

The only reason that you can get a mismatch like Campy 10 shifters to operate a Shimano 9 system is by rerouting the the shift cable, so the RD's lever arm is longer and the throw is reduced. A Campy 10 shifter with an average cable pull of 2.8mm would not shift a Shimano 9 system, requiring only 2.5mm, if this was not done. It should shift a Shimano 8 system, since they both use nearly identical cables pulls.

As noted, perfect adjustment of the RD helps distribute the error, but usually an under shifting RD is less tolerable than an overshifting one.

A J-tek shiftmate is made to reduce the error with the Campy 10 shifters and SRAM 10 RD, but the folks at J-tek know that they are not fixing the non-uniform cable pull issue. If the average pull is increased with a shiftmate, it improves the pull on the first five shifts, but makes the last four greater than needed.

One other thing I'd want to check is how sloppy the main pivot is on a SRAM RD. If the RD is loose enough, all you need to do is get the chain to jump to the next cog and the RD will align itself to that cog, if it's got enough slop.

I've noticed quite a bit of axial play at the main pivot with a well-used Campy RD. I tighten mine up with a shim beind the C-clip on the main pivot (where the RD bolts to the frame). A new RD might have as much as .008 inch (.2mm) of axial play, when relatively new. I put an .031 inch shim on an old 10 speed RD and reduced the play to a better than new .002 inch. That RD (with a little mod to the cable clamp bolt) is shifting an 11 speed drivetrain nicely. I took the time to check the RD alignment without the chain in place and noted that the 10 speed RD did not have quite enough travel to reach the largset cog properly. That why the cable clamp bolt mod was done - to shorten the lever arm and increase the travel.

Tiso tried a few minor adjustmenst to change travel and make their Campy RD work with SRAM. It didnt work out for them on either the 10 or 11... They also have more float in the top pulley than both stockers.

I tried a few different versions and they worked but really worked poorly. I wouldnt subject expensive chains and cassettes to it and or consider it on a bike I owned...

I think they have a SRAM now and it took a different curve to the graduating lever arm pull geometry.

[Dave]

I'm willing to bet that a check of the upper pulley position without the chain in place will reveal a significant misalignment (of the SRAM RD with Campy 10 shifters). A RD that moves 3.95mm for each 3mm of cable pulled cannot magically move the same amount with 2.5mm cable pulls. There is no magic when it comes to mechanical equipment.

[thegunner]

I'm willing to bet that a check of the upper pulley position without the chain in place will reveal a significant misalignment (of the SRAM RD with Campy 10 shifters). A RD that moves 3.95mm for each 3mm of cable pulled cannot magically move the same amount with 2.5mm cable pulls. There is no magic when it comes to mechanical equipment.

i agree.

maybe it's because i ride a super small bike (48 traditional), and the geometry has an effect on the effective chainline... but i do know it works for me. you guys can say all you want about how the cable pulls shouldn't work (and i agree, in practice it shouldn't), but i had it running without a complaint in the world.

[oliver1850]

.

[Dave]

Thanks for the effort in proving what the numbers predict. There is just no way that five 2.5mm cable pulls will do the job of five 3mm pulls. It's not even close to the correct amount.

I would expect far better results with a more minor mismatch, like Campy 11 shifters with Shimano 9 drivetrain. The difference in the average pull is only .1mm. Both brands also have nonuniform pulls that start small and get larger. I would predict sucess with that setup.

[chuckaw]

you can use the Red crankset on a campy drivetrain no problems...

Can you use the red crank with an 11sp campy drivetrain? I ask because I may get a quarq and can get red for lots cheaper then rotor option.

[oldpotatoe]

Can you use the red crank with an 11sp campy drivetrain? I ask because I may get a quarq and can get red for lots cheaper then rotor option.

Yes, no problem. Just shift with some shifting finesse, and the chain won't dance between the rings. The differences are small..kinda like Campag 10s ERGO and sram RD...which does work fine and dandy...doh!!!

[Louis]

There's always the Friction option :p