Hubs recommendation

[sevencyclist]

I was wondering whether there's any significant perfromance difference between hub like Record, Chorus, Kings, Hugi, American Classic, or White Industry. I am having a builder build a custom set of wheels for Campy drivetrain, so the build quality is not an issue. I am trying to decide which set of hubs to get.

I did a search on this forum, and noted that most people like what they bought and did well with what they have. For someone who can only afford one set of wheels like me, I want to spend decent amount but get just one great set of wheels. The weight of hubs seems to be very similar, hovering around 120 gm for the front and 250 gm for the rear after discouting the skewer weight. What do you recommend, and most importantly, why?
Thanks in advance.

[e-RICHIE]

dt 240s


sorry for the longwindedness.
e-RICHIE

[Kevin]

White Industry. I have not tried the Dt 240s.

Kevin

[Dr. Doofus]

have three wheelsets...all on Open Pros...one Centaur, one Chorus, one Record hubs...honestly, this doof can't tell a bit of difference

[hypnos]

I have close to 8000 miles on mine. Just had them serviced and they going strong. The downside with these hubs, at least in my mind, is that they are now only available in black. I much prefer my silver Hugi 240's.

Jeff

[dirtdigger88]

ya want cheap and effective- black or silver

http://oddsandendos.safeshopper.com/7/97.htm?646

I have never heard a soul complain about them

Jason

[Air Jer]

What e-Richie said.

[jerk]

what air-jer said.

jerk

[dgauthier]

dt 240s

sorry for the longwindedness.
e-RICHIE

Can you be more elaborate?

If anyone else here recommended the DT's, I'd take it with a grain of salt. You, I listen to. What makes the DT hubs better than, say, a nice pair of Campy Record's?

Besides, sevencyclist did say "most importantly, why?"

[jerk]

Can you be more elaborate?

If anyone else here recommended the DT's, I'd take it with a grain of salt. You, I listen to. What makes the DT hubs better than, say, a nice pair of Campy Record's?

Besides, sevencyclist did say "most importantly, why?"


good. the jerk didn't want to tell you why he liked'em anyway.

jerk

dish.

[dgauthier]

Yer stem's too long. ;)

[e-RICHIE]

dgauthier-issimo wonders "why the hub-bub on the swiss hub?"


smoother bearings.
better q.r.
50mm between flanges.
black w red trim.
more au courant.
easier to assess a possible coup d'etat.
no more need for a nom de plume.
black w red trim.
black w red trim.
50mm between flanges.
black w red trim.

i.e., if you want more tail than sinatra,
switch to dt 240s hubs, dt revo spokes, and
dt rr1.1 rims.

[Dr. Doofus]

[QUOTE=e-RICHIE]



i.e., if you want more tail than sinatra,
QUOTE]

what if one wants more trail, rather than tail?

[musgravecycles]

The biggest reason to go with DT's over Campy's is that Campy hasn't really changed flange dimensions on their hubs since we all used 7 gears on a freewheel.

A 240's flange dimensions are designed for a modern 10 speed wheel. Therefore they have less dish and build a stronger wheel.

Since you take my opinion with a grain of salt though, ask Joe Bell... because this is his opinion that he shared with me on the phone the other day...

Having said that, I have never had a problem with my Records....
too bad the DT doesn't come in 36 hole.


Wow, I guess I'm slow at typing 3 people got their response in before mine...

[e-RICHIE]

er, Joe Young

[jerk]

campy 32hole hubs build 16spoke rear wheels. dt swiss 32 hole hubs build 32 hole rear wheels....plus they are nice looking. *** also builds great hubs but the jerk has forsworn talking about them here.

[csb]

eh, joe?

[musgravecycles]

what e-RICHIE said

[musgravecycles]

*** also builds great hubs but the jerk has forsworn talking about them here.

Have you ever tried the *** Bottom Bracket? Does it really spin when you blow on it? Inquiring minds want to know.

[e-RICHIE]

musgravecycles-issimo...
you can't unring the bell.

[jerk]

the jerk was talking about *** not ***. yes the *** bb does spin when you blow on it and is an engineering marvel that the jerk wishes cees would market. but he has bigger and better projects right now.....like an eleven speed cassetteless wheel with a starter 10 or 9 tooth cog....the whole damn thing (the gear cluster) is milled out of a single piece of titanium.....

[musgravecycles]

happy e-RICHIE-issimo...

[gdw]

I was just looking at Excel's webpage and a Record hubset is $240. A Chorus hubset sells for $215.00. Both hubsets are bombproof, light, and come with skewers. Campy compatible Hugi 240s are $390. while Kings cost $456. and aren't compatible with Campy cassetts. Add on an additional $40.00 for skewers and compare the costs between Campy's two top of the line hubs and their chi-chi competitors. Now add the cost of the tools needed to overhaul the Hugi's ($100.+) and Kings ($150.) versus the cost of the two 5mm and one 3mm hex wrenches needed to overhaul the Record or Chorus hubs. Total the numbers up and I think you'll find that Record and Chorus hubsets are a little less expensive than the competition. In fact, you can buy a handbuilt Record wheelset with Mavic Open Pro CD rims, DT butted spokes, and alloy nipples from Excel for only $11. more than the cost of the Hugi hubset and skewers. But wait...Hugi's are black and red and weigh less. :D

[Ozz]

Go to Mike Garcia and he will build up a set of DT wheels for you for a little more than the retail price of the hubs alone.

[gdw]

I remember reading the post about Mike's pricing. That deal is tough to turn down and Mike is a first class guy but have you ever wondered why Hugi hubs are pretty easy to find at substantial discounts? I know a number of the members of this forum are big fans of the 240s and think that they're worth the price. I have no experience with the S model but have used or use the first two generations of the 240 for mountain biking. Some of the earlier hubs were prone to premature bearing wear and cracked flanges. Many users had problems with the the cassette star ratchet failing to engage as well. DT has upgraded and modified the hubs over the years and apparently fixed their shortcomings. Hopefully their problems are behind them.

Chorus and Record hubsets are less expensive, easily serviced, and of proven design. If I were limited to one wheelset, I'd buy Campagnolo.

PS - e-RICHIE is prejudiced because the black and red Hugi's remind him of Twizzlers. :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

i'm on the wagon til sun nite cuz hincapie podium-ed at p.r.

[davids]

ya want cheap and effective- black or silver

http://oddsandendos.safeshopper.com/7/97.htm?646

I have never heard a soul complain about them

Jason
dirt,

Do you have personal experience with these? How do the SpeedCific Perceptions compare with the Hugis? Anyone?

[sam.g]

I've also been contemplating a new set of lightweight wheels (RR1.1/Wheelsmith/Speedcific) from Mike Garcia and relegating my Ultegra/Open Pros to winter duties. However from all the discussions on this board, the consensus opinion still seems to rank rotational weight and build quality well above hub quality. As such even at the righteous price for which Mike can deliver a DT 240 hub wheel set, why look further than his Speedcific hubs which will come in at at least $100 less? If built with AreoHead OC or DT's RR1.1, would dishing already be minimized?

Sam

[BarryG]

What about noise pollution? Aren't some of the campy type freehubs godawfully loud (as in non-silent)?

Barry

[musgravecycles]

Aren't some of the campy type freehubs godawfully loud


That depends on when you last greased them...

btw, ever heard a CK...

[Too Tall]

I believe SpeedCific Perceptions hubs are infact Hugi Onyx relabled someone who actually know pls. chime in. If that's correct than I'll tell you that they are fantastic and I have put about 6k commuting miles on a set with nary a problem. You can get these in campag or chimpmano and the bodies change easily.

After all is said and done I choose hubs for two reasons: builds a strong wheel and requires almost zero maintenance....only two fit that bill...oops...make that one. Hugi....although I don't really have a problem with the way Shimano builds into a 9 spd. wheel...OK it is not the BEST however it's fine enough for this knuckle dragger.

And than there was Phil Wood.

[Ken Robb]

I've got Open Pros on 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, and Chorus 10spd hubs. No problems with any of them, they feel the same when I spin them in my fingers. The Chorus hubs are way louder but not as loud as C Kings. The Campy buzz is as good as a bell for warning pedestrians when I ride the boardwalk.

I've got XT hubs on my mtn bike--quiet and foolproof.
I had some Orion cartridge bearing hubs that had a little more drag than any of the others.

Ksyriums and Spinergy SR3 spin as well as any of my others too.

I'm thinking that it's hard to find bad hubs these days though I can feel coarseness when I turn Deore and lower level Shimano by hand on the axle. From LX up they all feel the same to me. Since these mountain bike components would probably have knobby tires the slight coarseness would probably be totally masked to a rider.

[alembical]

Just had to say that I got a rear wheel from Mike Garcia on Friday and had a nice ride Saturday and Sunday. They seem like wonderful wheels and he was great to work with. I am not one of those who gush on and on about components, but I like them. We will see in a year how they are holding up and that will be the test to me.

Alembical

I would also like to add that I have a Bonti X-lite on the front and am quite impressed with that as well ($79 new). Spin that thing and it just keeps going and going.

[BarryG]

I believe SpeedCific Perceptions hubs are infact Hugi Onyx relabled someone who actually know pls. chime in.
"Our new hub set is manufactured especially for SpeedCific by our partners at NovaTech in Taiwan."

[musgravecycles]

And than there was Phil Wood.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Phil made a Campy 10 rear!

[dgauthier]

smoother bearings.
better q.r.
50mm between flanges.
black w red trim.

A 240's flange dimensions are designed for a modern 10 speed wheel. Therefore they have less dish and build a stronger wheel.
campy 32hole hubs build 16spoke rear wheels. dt swiss 32 hole hubs build 32 hole rear wheels....
Thanks! How, exactly, does the flange spacing reduce dish? Is the left flange closer to the centerline?


i.e., if you want more tail than sinatra,
switch to dt 240s hubs, dt revo spokes, and
dt rr1.1 rims.
Well, I take that with a grain of salt . . .

[e-RICHIE]

"Is the left flange closer to the centerline?"


yes.

[saab2000]

I still say that offset rims (of which there is unfortunately a very limited selection) are more effective than the hub selection. This evens up the tension and does not narrow the flange width.

However, I am talking somewhat out of my butt here. I do not know the flange width on various hubsets.

But I would say that moving the left side flange inward, closer to the centerline, simply narrows the wheel. And I have a hard time imagining that to be a stronger wheel.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I am ready to learn. :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

i placed my wheelbuilding faith in joe young's
hands about 4 years ago. fwiw, yeah what he
said. and he said, "dt". and it was good.

[Chief]

As I understand it from previous posts on wheels, ideally one would like the tension in all the spokes to be the same in order to optimize the strength of the wheel. Because of the necessity for dish in the rear wheel, this is not possible, but by moving the left flange (the non-drive side) closer to the center, it is possible to build a wheel were the tension in the non-drive side spokes is closer to that in the drive side spokes.

Correct e-Richie?

[marle]

I too put my faith in Joe Young every weekday morning at 5:45am when I go out on my csi with 32 spoke mavic cxp, hugi 240 hub wheels, built by Mr Young, on the pothole and gravel strewn streets of Westchester. You must have faith!!

[e-RICHIE]

joe likes them.
that's enough analysis for me.

[christian]

But I would say that moving the left side flange inward, closer to the centerline, simply narrows the wheel. And I have a hard time imagining that to be a stronger wheel.

The wheel will be radially stronger than a wheel with more unequal flange widths and spoke tensions, because more spokes will be taking the load. Basically all four spokes in the load affected zone will have a load-bearing function, as opposed to just the two drive-side spokes. However, you are right in so far as narrower flanges lead to less bracing angle and (at least theoretically) to a laterally weaker wheel.

For this reason I agree that off-set rear rims seem a better solution than narrower hub flanges, but I've never used either, so this advice is worth what you've paid for it.

- Christian

[Chief]

What e-Richie said about Joe Young also applies for me.

BTW, I have a pair of black and red DT socks to go with my hubs.

[kidamaro]

By moving the left flange to the center allows you to increase the tension on the non drive side to balance the moment from the drive side. Increasing the tension on the non-drive side makes it less likely that the spokes will loose tension as the wheel deforms while going over bumps. The reasons spokes loose tension is because when the wheel deforms slightly, the tension is reduced. The less tension, the less deflection required to remove all the tension, which allows the nipple to vibrate loose.

[dgauthier]

I still say that offset rims (of which there is unfortunately a very limited selection) are more effective than the hub selection. This evens up the tension and does not narrow the flange width.

However, I am talking somewhat out of my butt here. I do not know the flange width on various hubsets.

But I would say that moving the left side flange inward, closer to the centerline, simply narrows the wheel. And I have a hard time imagining that to be a stronger wheel.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I am ready to learn. :beer:

It's true that narrowing the flange spacing reduces the lateral strength of the wheel. But (according to Jobst Brandt) the lateral loads on a bicycle wheel are pretty small, even during high speed cornering and out of the saddle sprinting. So I would imagine the tradeoff of lateral strength vs. radial strength would be worthwhile.

There's nothing that says you can't do *both*. I am sold on Velocity Aerohead's based on your experience and relation of same here, saab2000. (By the way, you never did say what kind of left vs. right side tensions you were able to achieve. Did you build your wheel with a tensiometer? Inquiring minds want to know!)

However, the leftward shift provided by any offset rim is, what, maybe three quarters of a centimeter? The specs for a Dura Ace hub on Shimano's web site indicate a 56 mm flange spacing, so it would seem a DT rear hub would cinch up the left side by another 6 mm's. I would imagine that even together, an offset rim and narrow flange rear hub wouldn't completely eliminate left/right tension inequality, though they would go a long way towards doing so. So if one wanted to be really anal about this stuff, one would *have to* use both.

[saab2000]

DGauthier,

I did not use a tensionometer, other than the tips of my fingers. To be honest, I could probably build a better wheel with one, but I just never have tried. I use a Park Shop stand and it is pretty solid. This, together with having built perhaps about 100 wheels (and trued countless more) make me think I am getting pretty close to what is right. But I don't really know what number to look for........ Even if I had a tensionometer I would not know how to use it other than to look for even tension.

That said, I guess your idea of using an offset rim AND a narrower hub might well be the ideal way to go. Problem is that I have two sets of perfectly awesome Record hubs just waiting for rims..... :rolleyes: I am gonna use those before I go out and get the DTs, which I am sure are fine hubs.

The other rim I tried is the Bontrager. But that one is no longer listed on his website, so I don't know if it is available. Check with a Trek store to find out. To be honest, that one had a bit tougher time coming into true than the Velocity. Also, I think it is slightly heavier, if that matters. Otherwise it seems like a fine rim.

At any rate, the two wheels I have built with offset rims have both thusfar been successes. My Open Pros built to Record hubs were, as the jerk pointed out, more or less 16-spoke wheels.

[dgauthier]

I can heartily recommend the Park tensiometer. It's about sixty bucks, and works well. It's now one of the recommended tools in the Barnett manual (so I guess it doesn't suck despite it's low price), and the instructions that come with it are very clear and well written. With it I was able to precisely tension my handbuilts within Mavic's recommended 90 to 110 kgf for front and rear drive side tension for the Open Pro's. (If you're curious, this gets you about 60-70 kgf on the left side rear with Shimano hubs.)

It is my understanding that a variation in spoke tension of less than 10% +- of average tension is considered an excellent result, so I'm encouraged that this was so easy to do as a complete newbie. With your vastly greater experience, you may find using a tensiometer even more illuminating.

[shinomaster]

have three wheelsets...all on Open Pros...one Centaur, one Chorus, one Record hubs...honestly, this doof can't tell a bit of difference


Hey doof...I have three bikes... One Record..One centaur..one chorus... and the best bike is....**** I can't tell the difference...

I'm surly now after my tacos and Belgian beer...

there is no difference..

[shaq-d]

define good, define strong, define ur standards.

my chorus wheelset is 10 yrs old and doing just fine. oh, maintenance? squirt some grease in the little hole. yum.

sd

[sevencyclist]

Thank you very much for all of your input. Sounds like many people have had great experience with most of their hubs. No one had absolutely awful experience with the Hugi or Campy hubs. I guess the difference is the slightly higher cost and slight lower weight in the Hugi 240s.

I checked out Phil Wood, and seems like those are heavier. American Classics and White Industrys, which are used by Dave Thomas at Speeddream, are heavier than the Hugi 240s as well.

Just one clarification question, the Hugi 240s seems to have had exterior change from silver or black of two years ago to e-Richey's black with red cross or black with silver cross. I assume the internal structure and bearings are all the same, is this correct?

[e-RICHIE]

dunno about the color change, but the rear flanges
moved from 55mm to 50mm last year. whatda country.

[musgravecycles]

I checked out Phil Wood, and seems like those are heavier. American Classics and White Industrys, which are used by Dave Thomas at Speeddream, are heavier than the Hugi 240s as well.

for what it's worth the Phil has the smoothest bearings I've ever felt in a hub. We've also got a couple wheelsets that Doug built in the 70's with Phil hubs sitting around the shop that are still as silky-smooth as new ones. The weight of the hub isn't that important anyway because it's at the center of the wheel. I'd take a smooth/heavy hub over a light one anyday...




Just one clarification question, the Hugi 240s seems to have had exterior change from silver or black of two years ago to e-Richey's black with red cross or black with silver cross. I assume the internal structure and bearings are all the same, is this correct?

No, the silver ones aren't the same as the black ones. DT has some 'issues' with the first generation of 240s. They changed the color to black so people would know by visually looking at them that changes had been made.

[e-RICHIE]

ps
some black hubs were 55mm but the newer ones are 50mm.
hey - thanks for reading.

[musgravecycles]

pss
they switched to black/red because e-RICHIE likes red...
;)

[e-RICHIE]

life at the top...

[amg]

they are also available in black with a silver label. (e-richie is still at the top :) )

the all silver hubs are only available as OEM on the complete dt swiss wheels.

Antonio :beer:

[dgauthier]

I'd take a smooth/heavy hub over a light one anyday...

Sadly, a smooth/heavy Phil hub might not be the best choice for sevencyclist's Campy drivetrain, as Phil hub freewheels are Shimano-only, just like Chris King's. No one has mentioned that yet . . .

Them there DT's will work though.

[musgravecycles]

Sadly, a smooth/heavy Phil hub might not be the best choice for sevencyclist's Campy drivetrain, as Phil hub freewheels are Shimano-only, just like Chris King's. No one has mentioned that yet . . .

Them there DT's will work though.

Ummm

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Phil made a Campy 10 rear!

[dgauthier]

I stand corrected.

[53-11]

The wheel will be radially stronger than a wheel with more unequal flange widths and spoke tensions, because more spokes will be taking the load. Basically all four spokes in the load affected zone will have a load-bearing function, as opposed to just the two drive-side spokes. However, you are right in so far as narrower flanges lead to less bracing angle and (at least theoretically) to a laterally weaker wheel.

For this reason I agree that off-set rear rims seem a better solution than narrower hub flanges, but I've never used either, so this advice is worth what you've paid for it.

- Christian

That makes sense. You are giving up lateral stiffness for more radial strength. (not a bad tradeoff possibly considering that the rear tire takes up to twice the weight of the front in some cases)

Ritchey touts a similiar system called the Zero dish hub that they combine with an asymmetric rim. Unfortunately it gets bad reviews at Roadbikereview.com

[Fixed]

dt 240s


sorry for the longwindedness.
e-RICHIE
You have it from the man nothing more to say.

[cdmc]

Since this came back up to the top, I'll chime in. I have King's on my Roadbike and DT Swiss 240s hubs on my Hardtail. No way I would ever buy the Kings for a roadbike (they came on it) again. The Kings don't roll as well as the 240s, are heavier, and they make motorcycles with open mufflers sound quiet. The only great thing about them is how pretty they are. I can see the benifit for MTB with the quick engagement and great seals, but not for a roadbike.

[dirtdigger88]

Since this came back up to the top, I'll chime in. I have King's on my Roadbike and DT Swiss 240s hubs on my Hardtail. No way I would ever buy the Kings for a roadbike (they came on it) again. The Kings don't roll as well as the 240s, are heavier, and they make motorcycles with open mufflers sound quiet. The only great thing about them is how pretty they are. I can see the benifit for MTB with the quick engagement and great seals, but not for a roadbike.

the only time king dont "roll" well is when you are coasting- the ring drive does add some friction- but Kings rock other that that- I love mine

Jason

[SoCalSteve]

They both roll very, very well....

And yes, the Kings are VERY!!!! LOUD!!!...shhh...

[CalfeeFly]

My King Hubs drive anal roadies around me crazy! :bike: :D

[bostondrunk]

since this is back at the top...
Ive built about 6 sets of wheels, 5 campy ten speeds and 1 shimano nine. Never had a problem getting the proper dish, never had any go out of true (honest!). I take my time while building 'em, and I do have to get the drive side pretty tight, but it has worked no prob. The campy ten speed hubs seem to work just fine for the other million people using them too...
Also, I've never personally seen anyone really wear out a campy hub, and there are a few guys around using the 8 speed stuff still, and I don't think they've ever had them overhauled (and rarely cleaned period.......we're a lazy bunch... :beer: ).

[Serotta PETE]

dt 240s


sorry for the longwindedness.
e-RICHIE

you are forgiven.....................


2nd dt 240s

[e-RICHIE]

you are forgiven.....................


2nd dt 240s


that would make it 480.
e-RICHIE©™®