How do you deal with a bad trader?

[Frank]

This incident is no way a reflection on the Serotta Forum as a whole. I have bought and sold many items here with wonderful outcomes. This is indeed an isolated incident with one individual, and I would not hesitate to deal with a Serotta Forum member in the future. This is a great Forum that I appreciate very much!

First, let me say I have never been frustrated enough with a bicycling transaction to discuss it publicly. It is not even the amount of money involved that makes this transaction so difficult for me. It is the frustration that there seems to be nothing one can do when the other party seems to be unwilling to cooperate and they seem bound and determined to be spiteful and personally attacking. I don’t know that there is any way to salvage this transaction, as the other party seems to get more obstinate and demanding and denigrating with each e-mail, but I hope someone has found a way to prevent something like this in the future or a way to deal with such a situation.

I recently posted in this forum an offer to trade my new 172.5mm Ultegra crank set for new set of 170’s:

WTT: my new 172.5mm Ultegra Octalink 9 speed 53/39 crank set for your new 170's. Seller indicated these were 170's, and box showed 170's, but they are 172.5's.

I received a response from a fellow forum member:

I have some slightly used D/A 53 x 39 170 cranks that came on my Demo Ottrott. I use 172.5's so I swapped them out. I would trade straight up...They do not say Octalink and are from 2002.

I sent him an e-mail and told him I would accept his offer to trade straight up and suggested we exchange shipping information. My next e-mail from him said he sees DA cranks on eBay for $40 more, and after agreeing to trade straight up he now wanted me to make up the $40 difference. I replied that I was confused, and that I thought he was willing to trade straight up. His subsequent e-mail indicated he was sorry and wasn't thinking clearly last night and had something important on his mind. I told him we didn’t have to trade if that was a problem for him and hoped whatever was on his mind was okay now, but he replied he needed to find the crank bolts and dust covers and would ship.

He shipped, I shipped, and I received his cranks. When I opened them, I immediately found the left crank arm was not what a reasonable person would expect with a “slightly used” crank arm. As I hope you can see in the picture, the metal from the crank arm has been scraped off. Not just the finish, but the actual metal has been damaged. The right crank arm has been dinged up at the bottom as if it had rolled across something serrated, but it is not anywhere as bad as the left one.

I know that “slightly used” could be open to interpretation (guess a bike that has been wrecked the first ride out could be termed “slightly used” but I don’t believe it would be an accurate representation of what a reasonable person would expect from an item described as “slightly used”), but I don't believe that a damaged item "slightly used" is what you would expect as a buyer, nor represent as a seller.

I e-mailed and told him I was not satisfied with the damaged cranks he sent me, and I suggested we return each other’s crank set at our mutual shipping expense. He first said to send them back and he would sell them and make more money selling them on eBay. It was then that this transaction turned ugly.

He immediately followed up that e-mail with a couple more. First he said if I was “Out of my mind…keep this bull**** up I will tell you to keep the crank arms they are exactly as described and nothing wrong with them. In fact, you have pissed me off. If you want to undo the trade, you pay for shipping both ways. You owe me $10 before I ship, if not, too bad...” He followed this immediately with “Send me a pic of this so called problem before you dare think about shipping them back. My guess is you dropped them, damaged them and are trying to scam me. Because anything else would mean you are talking out of your ***.”

I then sent him pictures and assured him I am not saying you intentionally misled me, just that these would not be considered "slightly used" in the condition they are in. I have never scammed anyone, and have excellent feedback and reputation in the Serotta forum. All I am asking is for you to return the item I traded to you in good faith and I will do the same for you.

He received the pictures, and then said, “You can't expect me to guess what you think slightly used means. You should have asked for pictures to satisfy your peculiar needs, as well as an exact description of every tiny, tiny blemish.”

I replied that I was not saying he tried to cheat me or lied about the cranks, but they are clearly not in the condition one would reasonably expect for "slightly used". I said if you are not willing to ship each others cranks back at our mutual expense, even in light of the pictures that clearly show the left crank has part of the crank rubbed away (not just the finish, but the crank arm itself) and that the right crank arm has dings to the bottom of it, if he would provide me his PayPal address I will send $10 for shipping and insurance. I am still going to send your DA cranks back at my expense, and would have expected and done the same from you if the transaction were reversed, considering the condition of the DA cranks. But, again, if you choose not to do so I will pay the freight on mine also.

He then replied, “my G-d, you are an annoying prick. Try paypalling the $12, then I will deal with your nonsense.” I asked him “Why don't you try and be civil? I have done nothing in this transaction that would cause you to take offense. I am just trying to make the best of this situation. The postage looks to be $9.05, including insurance. The $10 should cover the PayPal fees and the shipping.”

He then upped the cost again, “$15 and I ship after I get the cranks back, to make sure they are the exact ones I shipped.”

Frustrated with his continuing escalation of fees and behavior, I finally replied, “I have been very patient and you are being unreasonable. Please stop. I have done nothing in this transaction to warrant your name calling, continued increasing of shipping fees, and general lack of cooperation. The cranks are not what a reasonable person would expect for "slightly used", and after looking at the pictures and thinking it over I think you would agree. I sent you new cranks expecting "slightly used", not damaged cranks, in return. The right thing for you to do would be return the cranks to each other at our mutual expense for return shipping. If you do not want to do that, ten dollars will more than cover return shipping and PayPal fees for mine as I pay the freight for yours. I am not looking to prolong this predicament, but only to bring closure and be on our way. I would appreciate your help in doing so.

His reply? “Yawn”.

In hindsight, it might have been better to step away when the other party asked for money after offering and accepting to trade straight up. I guess I could ask for pictures of every item I buy or trade for, but when someone whom I expect would be reputable represents an item as “slightly used” I would expect the part not to have metal eroded away. Finally, maybe this is a sign that it is time for me to quit buying and selling bike stuff for a while. I have enjoyed this bike hobby for a long time and it has produced some wonderful friendships and memories, but for some reason this transaction has frustrated and disappointed me far beyond what I would have ever reasonably expected. Perhaps I have too high of an expectation of fellow forum folks, or maybe I just expect someone to treat me as I would want to be treated or would treat them in a similar situation. In any case, I am open to suggestions. Please feel free to e-mail me offline at retrofan531 at allegiance dot tv.

[Roy E. Munson]

They look beat to schit to me, I'd be po'ed too!

Now what kind of p-rick would try something like this? hmmmmmm

[Ken Robb]

"slightly" used to me means that I would have to get really close to see very minor rub marks from shoes. "Used" would suggest scuffed logos and more scratches. These would be "beat up but still functional".

I'd put a name to the story if he won't un-wind the deal so nobody else gets stung by him in the future.

And you are right that you probably should have bailed out when he changed the deal and wanted cash to boot.

[e-RICHIE]

i'd jury-rig the guy.

[christian]

The only reasonable description for the condition of that crank arm is "substantially bodgered." Very sorry to hear of your troubles.

I think it's especially lame that this guy is selling his integrity for $10, no wait $12, no $15. I mean, for god's sake, no money even traded hands. He should just ship the original cranks back...

- Christian

[saab2000]

I have had 2 good transactions off the board here. Too bad this one turned sour. Don't know what to say, but it really is bogus, at least if how you describe it is how it really happened.

I was offered something here once and asked for a photo. No photo, no deal.

In the end you might end up eating the whole thing and chalking it up to experience.........

Other than the damage, will the crank at least work for you? By the way, I also think this is more than "slightly used".

[coylifut]

...looks like someone took a Dremel to it. No reasonable person would consider that slightly used. I've bought and sold a number of things here on the Forum. Every transaction has been flawless.

[The Dominatrix]

I wonder what 93legendti thinks of this?

[weisan]

Frank, my dear pal, you have gotten yourself into a sad situation. I know who and what you are dealing with. It's a forgone conclusion. Forget it and move on. That way you keep your sanity and still maintain optimism for other people and other things in life. Don't let this overcome you, it's not worth it.

Other folks can say what they like, but I would just caution: Be very careful with what you are going to say here...remember we are all guests at Ben's forum. We don't want to cause or say anything that might embarrass the host...not because of one person. Things said in anger or malice cannot be taken back, actions have consequences.

[alembical]

That sucks! I have had nothing but good experiences with the classifieds here....bought a bike, bought shoes, sold a stem, got a computer, found some good wheels, etc....

Hopefully it all works out smoothly.

Alembical

[Len J]

The damage on the end of the crank is no big deal IMO, but the damage to the middle is awful.

It sounds like you are being resonable........The only threat that might work is to threaten to "Out" him on the forum unless your originals are returned as shipped within X # of days. If nothing else, "Outing" him will 1.) make you feel better and 2.) you will find out if his reputation means anything to him. (If it doesn't than there is no hope anyway.)

Lesson is that pictures should always be exchanged.......although I've done two transactions w/o pictures with people who I judged were trustworthy from my limited interaction, and I've had no problems. Sounds like just a bad egg.

Len

[e-RICHIE]

if someone buys the sidis i listed
on the classified last week.

[Birddog]

will include as a bonus a "surprise".

Frank, I guess you weren't expecting a surprise in return.
Judging by the pictures, I'd say that either the trader was totally oblivious to "condition", or they were misrepresented. In either case, a simple re-exchange would be in order, kind of like no-fault divorce.

Birddog (who was once the victim of an attempted screw job on E-Bay)

[Ken Robb]

I've had mostly excellent transactions here. Heck, Dave Thompson sent me $285 worth of cranks before he got my check. I think we must have gone to the post office at the same time.

I bought a saddle w/money-back if you don't like it guarranty from DBRK. It was like new but not good for my butt. Another list-member was happy to buy it from me so the guarranty was never invoked.

I've been mildly dissappointed by a couple of "buyers" who changed their minds after I thought we had a deal (nothing shipped so no real harm) and a buyer who took a month to send me the $$ after saying he wanted the item.

Overall we're a good group to deal with.
I've even bought 4 bikes unseen on the internet with only one minor dissappointment and the seller and I worked out a price adjustment based on my complaints. That bike was shipped from a shop and he hadn't seen it in several months so what I felt was misrepresented was inadvertent I'm sure.

[William]

Hi Frank,

Sorry to hear you seem to be having a problem. I would agree with Christian (and others), those are ""substantially bodgered."

So far all my transactions with folks on the forum have been excellent. No complaints.

I hope it comes to a satisfactory conclusion.

William

[CNY rider]

I'd like to see the other party named, and let them tell their side of the story. That would help maintain the integrity of the classifieds.

[bostondrunk]

They look beat to schit to me, I'd be po'ed too!

Now what kind of p-rick would try something like this? hmmmmmm

Roy, are you ripping people of again? And where is that used assos cream you promised me?!?!

[flydhest]

Wow,

I had good dealings with people here and didn't even pause to worry. Dave Thompson--golden, amg--what a guy, Dave Kirk--top notch.

To Len's comment, I might suggest that it would be a public service to know who the person was. I feel like that sort of information is what makes markets work.

[flydhest]

I wonder what 93legendti thinks of this?


ahh, you were quicker looking this up than I was.

[Len J]

Wow,

I had good dealings with people here and didn't even pause to worry. Dave Thompson--golden, amg--what a guy, Dave Kirk--top notch.

To Len's comment, I might suggest that it would be a public service to know who the person was. I feel like that sort of information is what makes markets work.

LOL

Len

[sspielman]

Out him now. From your story, he has misrepresented his end of the deal as well as attempting to change the terms of the resolution. You have no reason to believe that the situation will ever be resolved. I wonder if we all chipped in if he would release the cranks held hostage in exchange for a set of PMP's?

[flydhest]

sspielman,

already outed. look at Frank's "edit" then at the Dominatrix's post.

[CJH]

The forum should be informed as to his identity and if he so wishes he's welcome to portray his side of the story. As mentioned before this would be in the interest of the integrity of the classifieds section!

Best of Luck!!!

[CJH]

I must have been posting at the same time as you Flydhest! Your absolutely right he's been outed! In hindsight it's not that hard either! All one needs to do is to search for the WTT post under frank as user name and BINGO, out'ed, I mean the response to the trade is there! Now in the interest of a continued civil and trustworthy forum community someone has a great opportunity to do the right....

[csb]

do they have sticky lactose residue?

[Big Dan]

I guess that's the way the free market works...........What a clown???

:help:


If you can't get the cranks back maybe get a couple of short stems.....

banana split.........

[M_A_Martin]

Ah, once again I see why you edit your posts csb...

[tch]

do they have sticky lactose residue?

:beer:

[M_A_Martin]

Yeah...wasn't that the same time frame as the used shorts?

[LegendRider]

RoadBikeReview has a "good trader / bad trader" forum - perhaps we should initiate something similiar. I've bought and sold a number of things on the classifieds without a hint of a problem. Everyone I've dealt with has been first rate. We've got a nice community and I hate to see jerks (not the jerk :) ) damage it.

[dirtdigger88]

the seller sounds like a complete looser- Gee I wish I could find out the name of the looser so others could know not to buy from him EVER- hmmm. . . how could I ever find out this info :confused:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=7457

LOOSER!!!!!!- not you Frank- the P.O.S who is trying to scam you- I hope he is not a dealer of the products he endorses!!!!!

93legendti- what do you think about this looser???????

LOOSER

Jason

[shinomaster]

What a cheat!! Liar!!!

[Andreu]

Frank, I looked at the pictures of your cranks and the cranks you received and you have been stitched up like a kipper.
Why is it that trolls can be taken off or banned from a forum but we have to put up with this sort of nonsense here? Unfortunately I can't see any redress for you unless this individual suddenly finds god or someone changes his/her medication.
A

[bulliedawg]

We all know who it is. We know he's a POS. And we know that he's no longer welcomed here. Of course, a POS like him really doesn't care whether or not he's welcomed. That's why he's a POS.

I saw an amazing documentary once about the diamond trade in New York City, which is controlled I believe by Orthodox Jews. They are able to buy, sell and trade massive values in diamonds with little more than a handshake. No paper, and no contracts. It's an amazing and efficient system of commerce that is based entirely on a code of condict and an individual's reputation, or the reputation of his family. If one of the diamond sellers goes back on his word, or unfairly tries to screw a fellow trader, he and his family are out of the business. They are banished. It's that simple. Of course, they've been doing business like this for a long long time. Maybe thousands of years. Now eBay and communities like the Serotta forum are beginning to echo the New York diamond trade.

The power of this system is based on the tightness of the group, and the power of the threat of banishment. We are a tight group, but I’m afraid banishment doesn’t cost us quite as much as it does in the diamond trade.

[Len J]

we have only heard one side of the story. And while it is presented in a rational manner, and Frank seems like a reasonable gut, let's hold judgement until we hear if there is another side to this story.

There are three sides to every story....Yours,....Mine,....and the truth.

Len

[alembical]

Scary!

The thing that is so scary is how easy this could have been a real expensive problem. The trader in question (he who must not be named) had been around long enough that I would have just assumed all was good and would have easily bought or sold a frame to him without much thought. I guess I have been lucky as the bike, shoes, stems, etc...I have sold and bought through the classifieds have all been in the mail at the same time as the check. I have never waited to recieve the check and the sellers I have bought from have never waited to recieve my check (and even more importantly, they just assumed it would all work out and I am good for my money and they never waited for the check to clear the bank either).

Be carful out there.

Alembical

[alembical]

Any wagers as to "he who must not be named"'s new forum name?

Alembical

[dirtdigger88]

even if "he who has not been named" changes his fourm name- it will only take 2 or 3 posts until his true colors come back out- what really kills me is that this troll is so wound up at the jerk all the time- yet tries to steal from a fellow forum member- I said it once and I will say it again- LOOSER!!!!!

Jason

[Big Dan]

I'm sure the creep is going to spin the whole story and try to blame some one else.
I've bought some big ticket items from forum members with no problems.
It's a shame some people don't have ethics or class...... :(

[csb]

... did you mean to say loser, looser, or perhaps looooooooser

[djg]

We all know who it is. We know he's a POS. And we know that he's no longer welcomed here. Of course, a POS like him really doesn't care whether or not he's welcomed. That's why he's a POS.

I saw an amazing documentary once about the diamond trade in New York City, which is controlled I believe by Orthodox Jews. They are able to buy, sell and trade massive values in diamonds with little more than a handshake. No paper, and no contracts. It's an amazing and efficient system of commerce that is based entirely on a code of condict and an individual's reputation, or the reputation of his family. If one of the diamond sellers goes back on his word, or unfairly tries to screw a fellow trader, he and his family are out of the business. They are banished. It's that simple. Of course, they've been doing business like this for a long long time. Maybe thousands of years. Now eBay and communities like the Serotta forum are beginning to echo the New York diamond trade.

The power of this system is based on the tightness of the group, and the power of the threat of banishment. We are a tight group, but I’m afraid banishment doesn’t cost us quite as much as it does in the diamond trade.

It's an interesting market and there's been some interesting writing done on its workings. For example: Lisa Bernstein, Opting Out of the Legal System: Extralegal Contractual Relations in the Diamond Industry, 21 J. Legal Studies 115 (1992), which may not be available in the checkout isle of your local Piggly Wiggly, but which is, in my opinion, worth checking out nonetheless.

I don't think there are any guarantees here, or any perfect and (and perfectly transparent) markets in reputations (or "reputational assets"). The hope is that you find (or build) a community where both outright fraud and misundertanding are relatively uncommon and where the harm done by bad deals is relatively moderate. I would hope that one bad (and plainly unpleasant) transaction wouldn't ruin the whole thing.

[vaxn8r]

Not that it helps Frank, but mental illness can be a horrible thing, for the person and for everyone else left in their wake. Just an educated guess about the person in question but, in all seriousness, he needs help. Too bad you got burned.

[Dr. Doofus]

read it and weep

wow, it actually means something now

[slowgoing]

Wow. Pretty unbelievable story.

Frank, sorry to hear about the messed up cranks, but at least it wasn't something more expensive. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for sharing this valuable information.

[dirtdigger88]

csb-
I am sorry I must have mummbled when I spoke- looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser looser- scum and troll- if there are any questions as to how I really feel please feel free to pm me and we can discuss further

Jason

[e-RICHIE]

bulliedawg wrote earlier (snipped):
"I saw an amazing documentary once about the diamond trade in New York City, which is controlled I believe by Orthodox Jews. They are able to buy, sell and trade massive values in diamonds with little more than a handshake. No paper, and no contracts. It's an amazing and efficient system of commerce that is based entirely on a code of condict and an individual's reputation, or the reputation of his family. If one of the diamond sellers goes back on his word, or unfairly tries to screw a fellow trader, he and his family are out of the business. They are banished. It's that simple. Of course, they've been doing business like this for a long long time."


this is not exactly a stellar role model.

the diamond industry is rife with price fixing, private sites in antwerp
for syndicate members, oppression of workers at the mines, near-
slavery conditions, and all that goes with its self-made false economy.
though 47th street may still honor the "handshake", without knowing
what goes on behind the scenes in that industry, one shouldn't use
it as an example of good and ethical business practices.

[flydhest]

Len,

I would agree with you if the pattern of behavior from the fellow hadn't already spoken volumes about what type of person he is. While there are often more than one side to a story, there are also real schmucks out there and 93Legendti has proved himself to be one time and again. After an interchange with him, someone pm'd me saying they knew people he rode with and that people who know him in person think he's a git.

That said, the other side of the story is likely that he's even more of a prick than seems clear and we don't even know the half of it.

however, as e-richie would say: bananas

[Serotta PETE]

This is mutual respect among the traders - - - For the buyers and those providing the product it is still "Buyer Beware". BIG TIME!!!!

As to the cranks. . . . Unfortunately a few bad apples can ruin it for trust of others. Slightly used means many different things to many people and that is why pictures are a good start in a negotiation of what slightly used is.

I have a neighbor who would do most anything for you but I would never buy anything from them or sell anything to them. Their "stuff" is always worth more and your's less - as well as yours better come with a 10 year unconditional warranty and theirs is "you must have mistreated it"

I agree that the "other party" should be heard - - - but in 4 pages of notes, they have not ventured forward!

Must be wine or play time.....PETE :beer: :bike:

[Len J]

but I tend to be an optimist when it comes to the goodness in people.....Sigh.

Len

[e-RICHIE]

flydhest-issimo


i am pretty





confused. how did 93Legendti become part of this?
have i misunderstood the thread? 93Legendti hasn't
posted on this. why is he under the microscope now?
sorry, i'm not blond; i just don't know.
and re the "bananas" schtik: i got that from my all-time
hero, don ferris. and now that he's shaved his beard, i feel
closer than ever to him.

[flydhest]

Len,

Yet another reason I admire you. I, however, am not so generous.


itchy-issimo:


http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=7457

[tch]

this is not exactly a stellar role model.

the diamond industry is rife with price fixing, private sites in antwerp
for syndicate members, oppression of workers at the mines, near-
slavery conditions, and all that goes with its self-made false economy.
though 47th street may still honor the "handshake", without knowing
what goes on behind the scenes in that industry, one shouldn't use
it as an example of good and ethical business practices.

I'm with e-richie on this one. My brother spent nearly five years in South Africa and Botswana, and he would say that the production and distribution side of the diamond industry might be one of the most inhumane, monopolistic, and controlling enterprises still in the world. Makes the old company-town, coal mining stories from our own history sound positively benign.

If I had one comment for people who have been sold on the idea that they want a diamond -- DON'T!

[Air Jer]

Wouldn't looser be loser? Then again maybe looser was a comment on one's morality. There maybe 3 sides to every story but the pictures of those cranks need no further explanation and it seems to me the proof is out there for everyone to see.
It will be interesting to see if the perpetrator makes clean on this!!!

[e-RICHIE]

earth to flydhest
earth to flydhest

thanks for that link and clarification.
i did not follow that thread so you can
hopefully understand the question
i posed.

roger, roger.
vector, victor.

[dirtdigger88]

e-man- now you can go back to eating the twizzlers

Jason

[saab2000]

e-Richie,

Your line at the bottom of your last post is from every pilots favorite movie: Airplane! It is a classic! Thanks for making me smile! I have my annual sim check in 2 days. I will say that at the start!

Roger, Roger. Request a vector Victor. Copy the clearance Clarence..... :beer:

[flydhest]

e-Richie,

Your line at the bottom of your last post is from every pilots favorite movie: Airplane! It is a classic! Thanks for making me smile! I have my annual sim check in 2 days. I will say that at the start!

Roger, Roger. Request a vector Victor. Copy the clearance Clarence..... :beer:

. . . no, I don't think I'll ever be over Macho Grande.

[JohnS]

I wonder what his definition of a "slightly used" woman would be! :beer:

[William]

I wonder what his definition of a "slightly used" woman would be!

(shudder) :eek:

William ;)

[weisan]

the tone of this thread is going south....as I much feared....do not pay back evil with evil.

[flydhest]

the tone of this thread is going south....as I much feared....do not pay back evil with evil.

I was actually thinking about the biblical notion of a community rebuking.

[shinomaster]

He would never do any of this!!!! :banana:

[CJH]

It's not as if this sour deal is cast in stone or anything! There's still time for a heartfelt apology and maybe send over some BRAND SPANKING NEW Dura Ace Cranks!!! But the clock is ticking... :fight:

[GoJavs]

Given that I blocked his posts weeks ago, if he were to come back, could someone please alert me? I think I could spot the warning signs of a disguised arrival...

1. Name-dropping tales of climbs in Europe
2. Heated arguments about tiny little stems
3. Long lists of irrelevant bikes owned

Polish that off by ruining your already-shaky reputation over $15! Wow! $15! I once bought a frame on e-bay for $15, changed my mind, and sent the guy the $15 anyway! Your reputation ain't worth the aggravation.

Heck! chatting with e-ritchie, dbrk, jerk, dave t. and the rest of you is worth more than $15! :beer:

[bulliedawg]

which may not be available in the checkout isle of your local Piggly Wiggly,

Ain't got Piggly Wigglies. But we got Hoggly Wogglies (insert dueling banjos and mouth breathing here.)

e-rich-ismo and others: I certainly don't mean to glorify the diamond trade. I was just making a comparison between two types of commerce that behave outside the mainstream, and therefore largely outside the laws that give us the power to make and enforce contracts. (I'll get back to my widdling and hog calling now.)

BTW, I think that's "aisle" not "isle" as in the Isle of Checkout. (Back to the one-holer now.)

[dirtdigger88]

Wouldn't looser be loser? Then again maybe looser was a comment on one's morality. !

I was trying for a sound not a word- maybe I should have spelled it luuuser- long "O" was what I wanted - not lack of spelling abilites- :crap: Something just gets lost with out hearing what someone is saying-

LOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSEEEEERRRRR


Jason

[Kevin]

I wonder what his definition of a "slightly used" woman would be! :beer:

Wife.

Kevin

[slowgoing]

GoJavs, your post prompted me to look, and sure enough, we each have an ignore list to which we can add the names of selected posters so we don't ever see their posts. How cool is that? Just left click on the poster's name, click "View Public Profile," then hit the link that says "Add "__" to Your Ignore List."

[Tom]

the tone of this thread is going south....as I much feared....do not pay back evil with evil.

"It's a big building with doctors and nurses..."

Yes. "Airplane" is Evil.

But seriously, you're right. The man has never shown much respect for other people that I've seen but in whatever has got him that way he deserves some respect and compassion. It's too bad that Frank had to run into it, it's like encountering an impaired driver on the highway. He didn't do anything wrong except be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Don't get me wrong. While I'm the type of idiot that jumps into a bar fight on the side of the guy outnumbered three to one even when the three are my drinking buddies, if the two of us prevail and I don't like the guy I'll then proceed to pound on him myself.

[eddief]

bought a set of pedals and cleats. Pedals took a while. Cleats would not have ever come without more than one reminder. This after sending a money order in one direction simply on trust.

I asked the list what they thought I should do. They suggested not outing the person on the list, but ok to have those interested to inquire about the story, and the a-hole via my private email. About 20 people wanted to know the details and the dirtbag member so they could avoid future dealings.

That worked for me. At least with ebay and paypal there are some that care about keeping feedback positive and I have used this for leverage for people to do what they say.

On ebay I sold a Flite Deck Computer that I said was used but in excellent condition. The buyer, upon receipt, let me know there was a blem on the face. We argued back and forth about the definition of excellent condition. By my def, it was in excellent cond, by his it was not. To protect my feedback record I offered a $7 refund. He was happy and so was I.

[JohnS]

I think this thread is great! How often does the majority of this forum agree about anything? Here we have Democrats and Republicans, Campyites and Shimanoites, Yankees and Rebels, all united for one cause!!! :beer:

[dirtdigger88]

I think this thread is great! How often does the majority of this forum agree about anything? Here we have Democrats and Republicans, Campyites and Shimanoites, Yankees and Rebels, all united for one cause!!! :beer:

and so will be his legacy

Jason

[jerk]

the jerk's head hurts......

[Dr. Doofus]

the jerk's head hurts......

lemmesmackitforya

I's a Dr.

trust me

[Frankwurst]

Your Word is Your Bond and Fair is Fair. You took a beatin' both ways! I'm sorry to see it on this forum or any where else.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I take ONE day off the forum at work to actually get some work done and somebody starts a necktie party without me! Fetch a rope, Myrtle! We’ll string ‘im up!

Seriously, the pictures speak for themselves. That crankarm is not just “scraped.” It is royally “gouged” which is also what has apparently happened to our poor friend Frank. That crank might qualify as “slightly used” on Bizarro-World, but not on any planet the rest of us live on.

Good riddance to him, I say--the other guy, not Frank! And Dirt-Man, I think the correct spelling just MAY be “LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-zer!”

Oh, and Pete . . . << I have a neighbor who would do most anything for you but I would never buy anything from them or sell anything to them. Their "stuff" is always worth more and your's less - as well as yours better come with a 10 year unconditional warranty and theirs is "you must have mistreated it">> . . . How dare you talk about me that way! ;)

BBDave

[gasman]

An interesting thread, it makes me wonder if his wife and child take any of his heat. I suspect that they do.
My neighbor across the strret used to do the same to his wife and kids. Now he is divorced and lives alone about a mile away. His teenage daughter has refused to see him or speak to him for over two years now. When his younger son comes back to his Mom's from a visit the boy is angry for 1 to two days.
Maybe Mr. Ti will see a professional counselor/psychiatrist/other to help him with his problem but I doubt it.
Sad

[jerk]

just because the guy is a cob-knobbler here in internet land and a sketchy business man when it comes to selling used bike parts does not mean he is a bad father, husband or person in "real life". in real life e-richie actually builds frames, the jerk is not really all that much of a jerk, dr. doofus is neither a doofus nor in the strictest medical terms a doctor. the boston drunk is sober at least when he sleeps and dbrk is much smarter than he appears to be on this forum..which scares the jerk.

the jerk just means to say, that as the imaginary internet personality who has borne the brunt of 93legendti's abuse, (at least in the non-fiscal loss sense) we really shouldn't judge his personal life or how he behaves towards those he actually knows and loves. make sense? after all, it's not like he's posting tawdry pictures of his wife as his avatar now is it?
jerk

[dirtdigger88]

jerk- you do have a heart!!! you do!!!!

jason

oh yeah- dbkr IS scary smart!!!! :)

[Dr. Doofus]

jerk...dirt..tawdry pictures...spouses...

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[tch]

Could you re-post that "tawdry picture of your wife" a bit larger again??? Inquiring minds want to know.....

[dirtdigger88]

why dont the two of you buck up the $25 it takes for one of the porn sites-

:p

jason

[jerk]

ahm...okay
still small, jerk's gotta find the big one.

jerk

[Frank]

of you who took the time to reply to this thread. I also want to thank those who e-mailed me off-forum. I even had one person offer to buy me a new Ultegra crankset (much appreciated, but fortunately I am able to afford to do so myself). As I said earlier, it truly isn't the loss of my crankset that has bothered me as much as the lying and cavalier responses from the trader.

I have not heard back from the bad trader since his "yawn" response, but based on his e-mails thus far I am not surprised. He has shown no integrity throughout this transaction, and to expect him to do so now would be just wishful thinking on my part. I don’t believe he has posted to this thread either, but then why would he and what could he possibly say? Anything I have said is contained in e-mails I sent to, or received from, him and have archived.

This experience has reminded me of how many great folks there are in this Serotta Forum when a single negative transaction stands out so clearly against all of the many positive ones I, as well as you all, have had here. We may indeed be diverse in our opinions on components, frame materials, stem length, and bananas :) but we certainly seem to be speaking as one when we say integrity and honesty are the most important part of any transaction.

I can buy a new Ultegra crankset from Nashbar for $90. The bad trader can’t buy a good name or integrity in this forum for any amount of money. I hope it was worth it to him, because I can't imagine paying the price he has chosen to pay for any material item.

Thanks again for letting me rant and get this off my chest. I will now get back to buying frames and never building them up ;)

[bostondrunk]

You should build yourself a nice tri-colored colnago...........but not with shimano! :cool:

[shinomaster]

I think a persons true personality does come through in their on line persona.

[arsegas]

As I read through the thread and discovered the perpetrator, I was surprised by the brazen nature what happened, but not at all by the identity of the culprit. Looks like this thread has made public what I'm sure many of us have been thinking to ourselves for a long time.

- Eric

[93legendti]

Yes, I saved these cranks for the right sucker, just to make a quick buck on Ultegra cranks, which I had no need for, having switched to FSA cranks on my 4 main bikes. I forgot about these cranks till the sick one posted looking for cranks.

Back to reality, the cranks came on my lightly used Serotta demo bike, un-ridden and stored for the last 9 months, Serotta and my LBS "missed" the "defects" the sick **** whines about. As did I. I spoke to Serotta about the bike before I bought it and they told me how great the condition of the components were.

My LBS called me when the bike came in and couldn't believe the great condition of the frameset, rims, shifters AND especially the crankset.

Of course the photos I took show no problems the child is complaining about. Given the low IQ in general of most posters here the posts in this thread have made me laugh, almost as much as jerk's obnoxious name dropping. Say what you want, take your best shot.

Since I have worried he might commit suicide over the crank issue,
I have offered to let him keep my cranks and send back his cranks -- at my
expense. He did not accept the offer. Anyone want a set of Ultegra cranks, 172.5 mm?

Frank, I wish you well. Keep posting in this thread -- I'm sure many idiots will rush to your side. I hope you feel better soon.

[Tom Byrnes]

An empty wagon makes a lot of noise.

[Needs Help]

Since I have worried he might commit suicide over the crank issue,
I have offered to let him keep my cranks and send back his cranks -- at my
expense.
I accept the offer for him. Send him back his cranks.

Just because you claim you got ripped off by Serotta and/or your dealer doesn't justify what you did. If you haven't figured it out yet, it's been my experience that most Serotta dealers are shysters, but I find it hard to believe Serotta itself wouldn't rectify any problems you encountered.

[CJH]

Now what's the appropriate response?! Oh yeah now I remember "YAWN"!

[BumbleBeeDave]

You might consider what Shino said a few posts ago. If no one jumped to your defense after Frank’s initial post, there just might be a reason. Look in the mirror and think about it . . .

BBD

[Frank]

Yes, I saved these cranks for the right sucker, just to make a quick buck on Ultegra cranks, which I had no need for, having switched to FSA cranks on my 4 main bikes. I forgot about these cranks till the sick one posted looking for cranks.

Back to reality, the cranks came on my lightly used Serotta demo bike, un-ridden and stored for the last 9 months, Serotta and my LBS "missed" the "defects" the sick **** whines about. As did I. I spoke to Serotta about the bike before I bought it and they told me how great the condition of the components were.

My LBS called me when the bike came in and couldn't believe the great condition of the frameset, rims, shifters AND especially the crankset.

Of course the photos I took show no problems the child is complaining about. Given the low IQ in general of most posters here the posts in this thread have made me laugh, almost as much as jerk's obnoxious name dropping. Say what you want, take your best shot.

Since I have worried he might commit suicide over the crank issue,
I have offered to let him keep my cranks and send back his cranks -- at my
expense. He did not accept the offer. Anyone want a set of Ultegra cranks, 172.5 mm?

Frank, I wish you well. Keep posting in this thread -- I'm sure many idiots will rush to your side. I hope you feel better soon.

Adam,

After reading the Serotta Forum last night, I guess you decided to begin writing to me again. You continue to avoid taking responsibility for sending me a crankset that was not as represented. You even took a new tact, stating "you are dumb, too bad, I was about to change my mind. By the way, your box, I finally opened up..empty!! How about that?" After some additional exchanges, your last e-mail was a profanity-laced rant where you said you were going to ship my cranks back and even provided a USPS on-line shipping label as proof. When I saw the shipping label morning when I got up, I replied. "Adam, I appreciate you sending the cranks back. That is all I asked in the first place. I would prefer to send yours back to you to do with what you please. Thank you, Frank".

Folks, Adam is either going to send my new set of Ultegra cranks back to me or he isn't. The only leverage he has in this situation is holding them over my head with threats to send, then not send, then claiming I damaged them or dropped them, or that I scammed him, then asking for postage to be paid...then $12...then $15, then finally saying the box I sent was empty and now offering the cranks to others on the list. There is nothing I, or you, can do that will make him do the right thing. It is on him. The cranks are gone unless he chooses to send them back.

This is more than enough time spent on this issue, at least in my eyes. Adam has gone beyond just being a bad trader and is now casting aspersions on the Forum as a whole. If he is going to send my new Ultegra crankset back to me, he will. If he doesn't, I will buy a new set. Either way, I do not want to allow his behavior to continue to set the tone in here.

There is nothing more to be gained by continuing this thread, as far as I can see. If he chooses to send the cranks back to me, I will let you know. Otherwise, I am done with this subject and hope you all can see to let it go too.

[bostondrunk]

I think we should send Sandy and Kevan to him, to teach him to love. :p

[JohnS]

Adam WHO?

[Santa Claus]

I am making my list.

Santa

[OldDog]

Let's respect Franks request and shut down this thread. The P.O.S. does not deserve the attention.

[Sandy]

Just send him Kevan. That is all the punishment he, or anyone else, will ever need. Please don't send me anywhere. :)

Sandy

[Jeff N.]

Slightly used? No. Slightly THRASHED? You bet! What a low-lifer. Jeff N.

[Carlo]

Free Cranks! Did somebody say "Free cranks"?! I'll take 'em! :banana:

Carlo

[djg]

Ain't got Piggly Wigglies. But we got Hoggly Wogglies (insert dueling banjos and mouth breathing here.)

e-rich-ismo and others: I certainly don't mean to glorify the diamond trade. I was just making a comparison between two types of commerce that behave outside the mainstream, and therefore largely outside the laws that give us the power to make and enforce contracts. (I'll get back to my widdling and hog calling now.)

BTW, I think that's "aisle" not "isle" as in the Isle of Checkout. (Back to the one-holer now.)

Hey bulliedawg, sorry for the typo, but now that I think about it, isn't the vowel selection optional? So says my buddy Irl, anyway.

e-richie and others, although I cannot really speak for bulliedawg, I didn't read his post as a tout for diamonds as a product or for the diamond industry generally. I think that a segment of the diamond trade has certain interesting informal mechanisms of enforcing its codes (even though the strength of these mechanisms may be fading as the trading community changes). I thought he thought the same thing, and that analogous informal enforcement mechanisms might develop within certain electronic trading groups.

[e-RICHIE]

djg-issimo wrote (snipped as in, "cut & pasted"):
"e-richie and others, although I cannot really speak for bulliedawg, I didn't read his post as a tout for diamonds as a product or for the diamond industry generally. I think that a segment of the diamond trade has certain interesting informal mechanisms of enforcing its codes (even though the strength of these mechanisms may be fading as the trading community changes)."



yeah.
e-RICHIE

[flydhest]

which is the most offensive post on this thread, in people's opinions?

[Climb01742]

fly, kinda like gasoline on a raging fire, no? don't you have an interest rate to play with or something? ;)