Levance Armheimer

[JMerring]

Say it 'aint so: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hans-michael-holczer-accuses-leipheimer-of-blood-manipulation. I always thought that, of everyone, at least LL was clean. Perhaps he was, but what's this guy got to gain from outing him?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . surprises me any more. :(

BBD

[Ray]

Why would you think that ANY of the elite end of the Peloton is clean?

I'd be shocked to find out that anyone who's finished in the top 50 was clean. And it doesn't even bother me anymore. Hell, I'd sort of like to think the three skinny little Italian guys who went dancing past me on a 12% slope were juiced. Levi? How could he not be?

-Ray

[Louis]

The soap opera continues...

[echelon_john]

"Leipheimer went on to finish sixth overall in the 2005 Tour de France, 11:21 behind winner Lance Armstrong. a few weeks later he won the Deutschland Tour, beating Jan Ullrich."

You might be a doper if...you beat Jan Ullrich in his home tour!

Jan did not race on sausage and gravy alone...

[witcombusa]

what exactly is remotely surprising about this?

[JMerring]

I guess it isn't surprising, or at least it ought not to be. But, for whatever it is worth, and like Landis before his whole brewhaha, Levi seems like a decent, humble, soft-spoken guy who never really seemed to hit it out of the park such that he raised my eyebrows. I always liked to think that because he was never quite able to hang with the big dogs, perhaps he was (or is) in fact clean. But I agree with others that it is probably naive to think that any of them are.

[Ray]

I guess it isn't surprising, or at least it ought not to be. But, for whatever it is worth, and like Landis before his whole brewhaha, Levi seems like a decent, humble, soft-spoken guy who never really seemed to hit it out of the park such that he raised my eyebrows. I always liked to think that because he was never quite able to hang with the big dogs, perhaps he was (or is) in fact clean. But I agree with others that it is probably naive to think that any of them are.
Sounds kind of like Tyler.

[michael white]

Don't forget Floyd the soft-spoken Amish guy.

[Ray]

Don't forget Floyd the Quaker.
Not a Quaker - Amish or Mennonite (not sure which). Big, big, BIG difference around here, near where Floyd grew up and where there are lots of all three. Relatively small differences between Mennonites and Amish, but Quakers are a whole different thing.

-Ray

[firerescuefin]

I find this tragic, amusing, and ironic.

Tragic if it's true, because Levi seems by all accounts to be one of the good guys.

Amusing, because he never tested positive. Kohl, Schumacher, and Rebellin (Gerolsteiner) did, were caught, and thrown out the sport, but I guess when your trying to sell a book about doping, talking about guys most people have forgotten doesn't move books off the shelf. So we know that Levi almost tested positive. That his blood values were near the limits that UCI set....according to the shamed former manager that's trying to sell his book. I have never heard of Levi's biological passport numbers being skewed or called into question. It may have not existed back then, but isn't he riding better now...or hasn't he since then.

Ironic because the "Branch Lancivians" are awfully quiet tonight. Levi apparently needs a cause outside of cycling to be worthy of defense. Cmon, I mean he gets people to wear their Road ID, and I know that he is involved in finding stray dogs a home. That's got to be worth something. You can best believe that if Big Tex was implicated with this flimsy of a story/evidence, Pete would have had to close this post down on about 3 seperate occasions.

[michael white]

I find this tragic, amusing, and ironic.

Tragic if it's true, because Levi seems by all accounts to be one of the good guys.

Amusing, because he never tested positive. Kohl and Rebellin (Gerolsteiner) both did, were caught, and thrown out the sport, but I guess when your trying to sell a book about doping, talking about guys most people have forgotten doesn't move books off the shelf. So we know that Levi almost tested positive. That his blood values were near the limits that UCI set....according to the shamed former manager that's trying to sell his book. I have never heard of Levi's biological passport numbers being skewed or called into question. It may have not existed back then, but isn't he riding better now...or hasn't he since then.

Ironic because the "Branch Lancivians" are awfully quiet tonight. Levi apparently needs a cause outside of cycling to be worthy of defense. Cmon, I mean he gets people to wear their Road ID, and I know that he is involved in finding stray dogs a home. That's got to be worth something. You can best believe that if Big Tex was implicated with this flimsy of a story/evidence, Pete would have had to close this post down on about 3 seperate occasions.

I like Lance, but then I loved Jan, too. I think all these guys are getting a bit of a bum rap.

[54ny77]

i'd rather see a full fledged admission of levi guilt than any more of those f'ing godawful road i.d. commercials. stick a needle in my eye and force feed me live audio of joy behar from the view--anything's better than those road i.d. commercials we suffered through during tour de lance presented by phil & paul on versus... :crap:

[cinema]

This is all so sad. In recent lance news, The Times picked up the story just recently, seems to implicate Lance with 'anonymous' sources who talked to a special agent from the FDA. Allegedly the usps team went as far as to sell their bikes to support their doping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/sports/cycling/05armstrong.html?_r=1&hp

[firerescuefin]

i'd rather see a full fledged admission of levi guilt than any more of those f'ing godawful road i.d. commercials. stick a needle in my eye and force feed me live audio of joy behar from the view--anything's better than those road i.d. commercials we suffered through during tour de lance presented by phil & paul on versus... :crap:


That's funny!...There was one day I watched it live rather than dvr, and I basically said the same thing to my wife.

[BumbleBeeDave]

i'd rather see a full fledged admission of levi guilt than any more of those f'ing godawful road i.d. commercials. stick a needle in my eye and force feed me live audio of joy behar from the view--anything's better than those road i.d. commercials we suffered through during tour de lance presented by phil & paul on versus... :crap:

. . . or chewing on tinfoil. They acted so serious about it and I'm sitting there saying to myself, "C'MON! It's a frickin' DOG TAG! Show Liz Hatch again! Or at least let her TALK!" :p

As for Levi . . . if true it just confirms that for me there's absolutely nobody left that I would be surprised at finding out they doped/are doping. That's the really sad thing. I still like to watch it, but the sport has absolutely no credibility left for me. :crap:

And as for his outside causes, unfortunately adopted dogs don't make great cult members. Now if they could TALK . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[William]

Eventually all will come out. It almost always does.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2008/magazine/03/11/steroid.timeline/t1_alzado.jpg





William

[Lifelover]

It seems as though the story has been pulled :crap:

[retrofit]

It seems as though the story has been pulled :crap:
Holczer accuses Leipheimer of blood manipulation (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/holczer-accuses-leipheimer-of-blood-manipulation?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines)

[Lifelover]

Holczer accuses Leipheimer of blood manipulation (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/holczer-accuses-leipheimer-of-blood-manipulation?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines)


Thanks for a working linlk but where the hell is the story.

All I read was that LL past a doping test :crap:

Maybe they should retroactively change the limits of the test and prove that everyone was doping.

[lemondsteel]

GMA this morning said that other riders are coming forth and saying LA doped. It'll be interesting to see who it is. GMA seemed to be saying it was team mates of LA

[BillG]

I loved Jan, too.

+1

[djg]

There's this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/sports/cycling/05armstrong.html?_r=2&hp

It's possible that something very concrete will emerge before long, but what I strongly expect is a long and deliberate process where most of the news, at least in the short run, is lots of print with very little content -- numerous reports of somebody or other saying something or other, with most of the details and particular bits of whatever is collected as evidence remaining obscure.

I'm not arguing guilt or innocence or clean or dirty -- whatever ultimately is found by legal authorities or athletic organizations or the larger "court" of public opinion, I suspect a great deal of noise in the interim.

[djg]

i'd rather see a full fledged admission of levi guilt than any more of those f'ing godawful road i.d. commercials. stick a needle in my eye and force feed me live audio of joy behar from the view--anything's better than those road i.d. commercials we suffered through during tour de lance presented by phil & paul on versus... :crap:

Shockingly terrible advertising, which does not get better on the thousandth viewing, and yet there's this: I see all sorts of cool ads where I feel no motivation to buy the product and have not, in fact, bought the product; I cringed at the road ID ads but finally thought, yeah, that's probably a good idea for 20 bucks, and I bought one.

[Elefantino]

A bunch of us are coming out from Florida for Levi's Gran Fondo.

Does this mean there will be blood at the rest stops? Cool! :banana:

On another front, "Branch Lancivians" is about the funniest thing I've read on here in a long time. Well played, sir.

It's getting to be where, on any team where a bunch of other people are getting or have been popped for doping, it makes it hard to believe there is someone who absolutely, positively doesn't do it.

Let's hope that the next generation doesn't fall into this trap. And that all the DS and doctors who push this stuff either find the truth or die.

[texbike]

Ironic because the "Branch Lancivians" are awfully quiet tonight. Levi apparently needs a cause outside of cycling to be worthy of defense. Cmon, I mean he gets people to wear their Road ID, and I know that he is involved in finding stray dogs a home. That's got to be worth something. You can best believe that if Big Tex was implicated with this flimsy of a story/evidence, Pete would have had to close this post down on about 3 seperate occasions.

I think that it's more that this is becoming old news and no longer carries the shock value of Floyd's initial accusations as opposed to a love of Lance vs Levi.

Texbike

[firerescuefin]

Based on the discussions the last couple of days and that Pete shut down two of those discussions over the last 4-5 days, I will politely disagree.

[William]

First it was OT's being shut down. Now it's bike specific threads getting shut down. What's next?

TASTES GREAT!


LESS FILLING




William

[firerescuefin]

William...now we get stuff like MGD 64...and Bud "air" that tastes like spritzer water. We're all losing.

[JMerring]

First it was OT's being shut down. Now it's bike specific threads getting shut down. What's next?



William

Ot free for alls limited to politics, religion and lance. We will have come full circle.

[Ray]

People are gonna find **** to argue about - its just part of what we do. Its like the Pillsbury Dough Boy - you push it down here (politics), it pops up over there (Lance). Either one of which is endlessly more fascinating than Campy vs Shimano (vs SRAM).

-Ray

[JMerring]

But I thought SRAM dropped out of the Campy vs. Shimano debate around the same time AS dropped his chain!!!!!!! Discuss. Or argue.

[firerescuefin]

Ray....are you saying that your groupo is better than mine. Someone get a rope. :no:

[firerescuefin]

But I thought SRAM dropped out of the Campy vs. Shimano debate around the same time AS dropped his chain!!!!!!! Discuss. Or argue.

SRAM's new marketing phrase...."Make the leap...right off the top of the podium"

[William]

SRAM's new marketing phrase...."Make the leap...right off the top of the podium"

Like Hinault...

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/hinault2.jpg






William

[michael white]

People are gonna find **** to argue about - its just part of what we do. Its like the Pillsbury Dough Boy - you push it down here (politics), it pops up over there (Lance). Either one of which is endlessly more fascinating than Campy vs Shimano (vs SRAM).

-Ray

Unfortunately, I think the Pillsbury Dough Boy is a pretty apt metaphor for today's e-expressive mind.

[1centaur]

Ot free for alls limited to politics, religion and lance. We will have come full circle.

If only Lance would run for governor on a freedom from religion ticket....

Here's a question for lawyers: If investigation turns up 5 eyewitnesses to drug encouragement and tolerance and maybe some IV something for the defendant, but no physical evidence, and there is no confession, would the DA bring that to trial and argue the evidence that passing drug tests meant nothing, asking the jurors to convict on relative credibility of the witnesses?

[pbjbike]

..

[Rueda Tropical]

If only Lance would run for governor on a freedom from religion ticket....

Here's a question for lawyers: If investigation turns up 5 eyewitnesses to drug encouragement and tolerance and maybe some IV something for the defendant, but no physical evidence, and there is no confession, would the DA bring that to trial and argue the evidence that passing drug tests meant nothing, asking the jurors to convict on relative credibility of the witnesses?

In these sort of investigations it's common for people to wind up in jail for lying to the Feds rather then for the actual crime being investigated. It seems several riders who have never tested positive have already admitted they doped and that Lance doped. It's all over, as far as denying doping goes. It's unlikely they will try him for taking PEDS but they would for perjury if he lies about it. They have a laundry list of potential charges involving the money trail and the transport of controlled substances, etc., etc. If he lies it will make life very easy for the prosecutors.

[michael white]

If only Lance would run for governor on a freedom from religion ticket....

Here's a question for lawyers: If investigation turns up 5 eyewitnesses to drug encouragement and tolerance and maybe some IV something for the defendant, but no physical evidence, and there is no confession, would the DA bring that to trial and argue the evidence that passing drug tests meant nothing, asking the jurors to convict on relative credibility of the witnesses?

if it comes to that, Armstrong's team will file in 100 riders who swear the opposite.

[PaulE]

Let Levi Testify

[Elefantino]

if it comes to that, Armstrong's team will file in 100 riders who swear the opposite.
I'm not sure he has that many friends in the peloton.

He might be able to find that many cyclists who fear for their continued livelihood if they cross the Armneel machine, though. Or maybe those two don't have the juice anymore that they once had before all this stuff starting blowing around.

And if this entire generation of American cyclists has to be exposed as dopers -- because they are and are proven so -- then it's a good thing. It might make the next generation think twice. And that's a very good thing.

[michael white]

No offense but I don't think it'll be anything that dramatic. not even close.

[Rueda Tropical]

I think the first leaks of testimony are verifying that not even one rider is willing to risk jail for perjury for Lance. At this point it's every man for himself with lawyers falling all over themselves to cut deals with prosecutors and protect their clients. Lance may have been the 900 lb. gorilla of cycling and that made anyone in the industry fearful of crossing him but he has zero leverage in this situation. Contacting any rider who is being called to testify to try and coerce or coordinate a story on the part of Lance would be incredibly stupid as that would put him in deep doo doo.

It may not be easy for the Feds to actually convict Lance on whatever fraud charges they are planning and, so long as he doesn't perjure himself, with smart lawyers he might avoid jail but the denying doping business is as good as dead.

[Ray]

He might be able to find that many cyclists who fear for their continued livelihood if they cross the Armneel machine, though. Or maybe those two don't have the juice anymore that they once had before all this stuff starting blowing around.
I think its one of those situations where if you're gonna shoot at a bear, you damn well better kill it, because if it survives, all you did was REALLY piss it off and then YOU'RE dead meat. I think anyone seriously considering testifying against Lance (and there are no doubt many with enough first hand knowledge to do so, assuming this stuff happened), is probably conditioning their testimony on the testimony of others so if it goes down, there's enough critical mass of people saying the same stuff that it becomes incontrovertible. If just a few people come forward, Lance can establish reasonable doubt, and he walks away still in a powerful position in cycling, you better find a new field in which to make a living. And it had better be a loooooooong way beyond his reach.

I personally don't have a problem with all of this controversy and some of the shine being knocked off the guy. I'm obviously not a Branch Lancivian (what a great line - thank you Fin!), but I don't think we should be tossing people in jail for doping in the peloton. It'd be like impeaching a president over a blow job - the crime is a relatively small personal offense, a VERY common one (particularly in the case of dopers in cycling), and its not really a crime against society. I also think it would be insane to strip his TdF titles - are you gonna go back and take Anquetil's? He straight out admitted doping. What about Eddie - he was tossed out of the Giro for doping. Miguel's? Nobody believes he rode clean. I seriously doubt a Tour de France or other three week tour has been won by a clean cyclist in the last fifty years, maybe ever. So at a certain point, this all just gets silly. I don't worship Lance, but all of the mock outrage on the other side is just as bad. At worst, he did what all of his competitors were doing. Or if you believe Vaughters from his text conversation with Frankie, not quite all. But still probably the vast majority.

-Ray

[Rueda Tropical]

I think its one of those situations where if you're gonna shoot at a bear, you damn well better kill it, because if it survives, all you did was REALLY piss it off and then YOU'RE dead meat.

Jail time for perjury can be a more immediate career killer. When facing the feds I don't think Lance is the first thing on anyones mind, it's how do I save my own ass.


I seriously doubt a Tour de France or other three week tour has been won by a clean cyclist in the last fifty years, maybe ever. So at a certain point, this all just gets silly. I don't worship Lance, but all of the mock outrage on the other side is just as bad. At worst, he did what all of his competitors were doing. Or if you believe Vaughters from his text conversation with Frankie, not quite all. But still probably the vast majority.

-Ray

It would be silly to take the yellow away from Lance and award it to another doper, but who knows what feeding frenzy will occur in the French press when it comes out that Lance cheated, just as they always suspected. Expect demands for retribution and histrionic outrage all round. Plus the UCI will be looking for cover and will be all to happy to offer up their former patron and best buddy as scapegoat.

[1centaur]

It would be amusing to look at the seven wins and see who'd get credit if Lance's titles were magically stripped. Not Jan. At some point, you get to the person people like and still have some belief in, and the farce becomes too much.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It would be silly to take the yellow away from Lance and award it to another doper, but who knows what feeding frenzy will occur in the French press when it comes out that Lance cheated, just as they always suspected. Expect demands for retribution and histrionic outrage all round. . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7qxqvjTbu0

Everyone knows his father was a hamster and his mother smelt of EL-deberries! ;)

BBD

[Rueda Tropical]

It would be amusing to look at the seven wins and see who'd get credit if Lance's titles were magically stripped. Not Jan. At some point, you get to the person people like and still have some belief in, and the farce becomes too much.


Maybe after they go down the list and strike off all the dopers they can give it to the Lanterne Rouge:)

[Charles M]

99- Zulle - Escartin
00- Ulrich Beloki
01- " "
02- Rumsas Beloki
03- Ulrich Vino
04- Kloden Basso
05- Basso Ulrich


Anyone that can go down the list till they find someone better than the next guy above them is, I think, delusional.

I don't get how anyone thinks one guy worse than the other.

I like that the sport is changing. I don't like the people that are simply trying to gain something by ripping it apart after it's come a long way.


I dont think it's perfect or clean, but I think it's cleaner now than at any time in it's past, including the Lemond years... The UCI are to blame period. The fact that they gave warnings like this to Levi and Tyler and others is part of the problem. They could make the rules tighter and solve a lot of the problem...



I just don't like spiteful ugly bitches (Like Floyd and this guy chasing Levi) that long for someone else spotlight. They are the worst kind of people. People that cheated and are very simply using doping again to try and gain...

I think a lot of this has fallen to that point.

[dnades]

So who did Lance and co. piss off in the past who has enough juice to get the feds moving? It would be interesting to see this from the perspective of the corporations that are involved in the situation. It would make for much more interesting reading than reading about the foot soldiers getting creamed.

If I were Lance I would maintain my innocence throughout the whole process. Either let them use the hammer or get rid of it permanently. At this point in the game it is almost irrelevant if he doped or not due to the catch 22 he's been put in. I think he's very familiar with being put in impossible places (If one person takes PED then all must in order to get your sponsors names up front otherwise you don't earn a living etc). At this point I think he'd put Livestrong first over his own butt if Novitsky and co. have actual concrete proof of his doping other than testimonials. If Lance was an amoral individual whose actions have harmed thousands of people then maybe Novitsky might have a case worthy of the public's trust but considering all the obvious malfeasance that is happening in our great country...well it seems rather ridiculous and a waste of Novitsky's talents.

my 2cents anyway.

[davidlee]

if it comes to that, Armstrong's team will file in 100 riders who swear the opposite.

Any probably ask Floyd to explain this too:
http://sakeargument.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978248254

scroll down to video , 1 minute in.

[michael white]

99- Zulle - Escartin
00- Ulrich Beloki
01- " "
02- Rumsas Beloki
03- Ulrich Vino
04- Kloden Basso
05- Basso Ulrich


Anyone that can go down the list till they find someone better than the next guy above them is, I think, delusional.

I don't get how anyone thinks one guy worse than the other.

I like that the sport is changing. I don't like the people that are simply trying to gain something by ripping it apart after it's come a long way.


I dont think it's perfect or clean, but I think it's cleaner now than at any time in it's past, including the Lemond years... The UCI are to blame period. The fact that they gave warnings like this to Levi and Tyler and others is part of the problem. They could make the rules tighter and solve a lot of the problem...



I just don't like spiteful ugly bitches (Like Floyd and this guy chasing Levi) that long for someone else spotlight. They are the worst kind of people. People that cheated and are very simply using doping again to try and gain...

I think a lot of this has fallen to that point.


I also have a problem with the spiteful little weasels that always crawl out of the woodwork and point fingers when they sense an opportunity to score a point or two. Riders like Ullrich, Vino, and Armstrong are really not that hard to get and I admire their straightforward approach to life. There are plenty of real, actual bad guys in life if you care about that sort of thing. When the drama's over, it's the weasels/narcs/rats/tattletales, call them what you will, that make me sick to my stomach. Cycling has plenty of drama queens, and as the toilet bowl turns I'm sure we'll have many interesting tales about who abused whom as a child, and whose uses special cream in their chamois. I doubt Novitsky will go down in annals as a big hero, though I'm sure privately he gets all weak in the knees thinking about locking up that big bad Marion Jones. Everyone will lie, the lawyers will issue daily condemnations, and in the end it'll be football season and no one will care anymore.

[firerescuefin]

Everyone will lie, the lawyers will issue daily condemnations, and in the end it'll be football season and no one will care anymore.

As much as I cross my fingers and hope for something different, I think you've hit it on the head.

Pez is right about Landis and all of the ex-dopers that are all coming forward to dicredit everyone now...these are the worst kind of people. Landis IMO is one of the biggest losers of all time. Take millions for his LDF, write a book proclaiming his innocence, then come forward like he was Mandela being persecuted by SA secret police.

[retrofit]

Armstrong laywer condemns "un-American" investigation (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-laywer-condemns-un-american-investigation)

[Rueda Tropical]

My. My. Lots of outrage all round. Now the investigation is un-American.

You get busted. Take it like a man.

You knew the score going in. No one made you do it. You enjoyed the upside of cheating now take the downside without crying about unfair the world is. Sure, all Lance is concerned about is the taxpayers and the cancer victims. Not saving his ass.

What's more stomach turning? Landis's come to Jesus baloney or Lance's media full court press about how unfairly persecuted he is. Before it's all done everyone will have the opportunity to look like a self pitying craven weasel.

[Climb01742]

with due respect to mad magazine, isn't this is weasel vs weasel? i have a hard time condemning the "rat" weasels while giving the "denying" weasels a pass. who could tell the truth about what weasels do but another weasel?

within the context of pro cycling culture, being a doper is (somewhat) understandable. be a mensch. cop to it. just don't lie about it all the way to the bank and your private jet.

[michael white]

with due respect to mad magazine, isn't this is weasel vs weasel? i have a hard time condemning the "rat" weasels while giving the "denying" weasels a pass. who could tell the truth about what weasels do but another weasel?

within the context of pro cycling culture, being a doper is (somewhat) understandable. be a mensch. cop to it. just don't lie about it all the way to the bank and your private jet.

no one cops to it. Did Floyd cop to it? hell no, he was the biggest liar of all, right, until he figured he could hurt someone else as weasels do and had nothing left to lose. People with a lot to protect (and power to help others) have other things to protect besides your notion of fair play.

[JMerring]

david millar copped to it 100%; also bjarne riis; vino didn't really cop, but he didn't not cop, either. basso sort of copped to it, though it was a half-ass attempt. floyd, technically, still hasn't copped to it since he maintains his innocence vis-a-vis the tour win.

also, if la really wanted to protect his power to help others, why not separate the 2 hims, come clean (which a lot of people would probably respect), and do so in the name of advancing the cause?

[witcombusa]

no one cops to it. Did Floyd cop to it? hell no, he was the biggest liar of all, right, until he figured he could hurt someone else as weasels do and had nothing left to lose. People with a lot to protect (and power to help others) have other things to protect besides your notion of fair play.



Actually they are the BIGGER problem than the ones who say "yeah, it's part of the pro program"

I don't care what they take personally, but to pretend to be something better and promote yourself on that lie is as bad as it gets.

[michael white]

david millar copped to it 100%; also bjarne riis; vino didn't really cop, but he didn't not cop, either. basso sort of copped to it, though it was a half-ass attempt. floyd, technically, still hasn't copped to it since he maintains his innocence vis-a-vis the tour win.

also, if la really wanted to protect his power to help others, why not separate the 2 hims, come clean (which a lot of people would probably respect), and do so in the name of advancing the cause?

no you have to name cyclists who copped before they were found guilty, not because they had to . . . otherwise that's not copping

[michael white]

david millar copped to it 100%; also bjarne riis; vino didn't really cop, but he didn't not cop, either. basso sort of copped to it, though it was a half-ass attempt. floyd, technically, still hasn't copped to it since he maintains his innocence vis-a-vis the tour win.

also, if la really wanted to protect his power to help others, why not separate the 2 hims, come clean (which a lot of people would probably respect), and do so in the name of advancing the cause?

"It does, however, seem that David Millar should just "shut up and ride." Slagging off Vinokourov - when you yourself were guilty of the same transgressions - conveys the image of a whiny, preachy, jealous tool. A description that we are loathe to apply to the man who's personal website once featured the URL itsmillartime.com.

David, we know you're reading this, so please - focus less on bitching about Vino' and more on your own training and racing and developing your younger teammates into drug-free, champion cyclists - and soon one of them might get to enjoy his own Classic podium moment..." ---Joe Papp

[JMerring]

no you have to name cyclists who copped before they were found guilty, not because they had to . . . otherwise that's not copping

by that definition, none of them. millar still gets the ex post facto honor and integrity award, though.

[Charles M]

He gets a tier 3 EPFH&I

There's tier 1, just admitting you cheated with no prompting. That's a man's award.

There's tier 2... The "you caught me, i did it"

There's the tier 2.5 "Yes you caught the drugs, but not in my body... I only meant to cheat"

There's the Tier 3 "you caught me, I admit to it and think that gives me the right to talk ****"...

There's the Tier 4 "I don't care what the evidence is I didnt do it"...

Several filler tiers, on involving leaving your wife in jail and blaming your grandmother, and another that almost involved getting your dog killed...


There's the teir 14 "I did it but lied and stoled money from a lot of people, but now that all of that money is gone and everyone knows I can't beat lots of good cat 3 riders so nobody will sign me. So the only thing left is to act like I'm comming clean and doing it for the right reasons. I'm not trying to defame anyone and it's not about money.

And the way you can tell it's not about the money is that I went to the WALL STREET JOURNAL with my info...

And the way you know I'm not trying to defame anyone is that I can't manage to speak for more than 2 minutes without saying the words Lance Armstrong."

There's a Tier 15... It involves doping children and taking their paychecks.

[JMerring]

the committee met and voted to rescind david millar's ex post facto honor and integrity award. the committee never warmed to vino until his gritty performance in this year's tour.

[witcombusa]

He gets a tier 3 EPFH&I

There's tier 1, just admitting you cheated with no prompting. That's a man's award.

There's tier 2... The "you caught me, i did it"

There's the tier 2.5 "Yes you caught the drugs, but not in my body... I only meant to cheat"

There's the Tier 3 "you caught me, I admit to it and think that gives me the right to talk ****"...

There's the Tier 4 "I don't care what the evidence is I didnt do it"...

Several filler tiers, on involving leaving your wife in jail and blaming your grandmother, and another that almost involved getting your dog killed...


There's the teir 14 "I did it but lied and stoled money from a lot of people, but now that all of that money is gone and everyone knows I can't beat lots of good cat 3 riders so nobody will sign me. So the only thing left is to act like I'm comming clean and doing it for the right reasons. I'm not trying to defame anyone and it's not about money.

And the way you can tell it's not about the money is that I went to the WALL STREET JOURNAL with my info...

And the way you know I'm not trying to defame anyone is that I can't manage to speak for more than 2 minutes without saying the words Lance Armstrong."

There's a Tier 15... It involves doping children and taking their paychecks.


Tier 20......saying you've never been caught and that you're the most tested athlete in the world and hiding behind your foundation and your hollywood lawyer saying other dopers have no credibility even if you showed them how....

[indyrider]

Tier 20......saying you've never been caught and that you're the most tested athlete in the world and hiding behind your foundation and your hollywood lawyer saying other dopers have no credibility even if you showed them how....


+ motherf'n 1. as I've said many times regarding that knucklehead, karma's a bitch.....

[michael white]

+ motherf'n 1. as I've said many times regarding that knucklehead, karma's a bitch.....

it's an all-out war to decide karma, 2.5 million Lancivians, LAF, all citizens with interest in cancer, Robin Williams, President of France, Eddy Merckx, Bike Snob, most of the free world etc. vs. 22 or maybe 22.5 bike nerds on nerd forums. This'll go down to the wire . . .

[witcombusa]

it's an all-out war to decide karma, 2.5 million Lancivians, LAF, all citizens with interest in cancer, Robin Williams, most of the free world etc. vs. 22 or maybe 22.5 bike nerds on nerd forums. This'll go down to the wire . . .



Those numbers may change drastically in the next few months......

[michael white]

Those numbers may change drastically in the neek few months......

or not

[PaulE]

Armstrong laywer condemns "un-American" investigation (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-laywer-condemns-un-american-investigation)


Unamerican (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2EirLJqghA)

[JMerring]

we don't get to decide karma - karma does. the cause is much bigger and more important than his cause and will survive whatever happens.

i've seen lots of air time where lance is plugging products and events and unamerican investigations and whatnot. i've seen far fewer where he's plugging the cause. i remember also how, instead of stealing contador's thunder in the final '09 time trial by speaking up for the cause, a splashy announcement was made about a new sponsor. also a celebratory team victory dinner was skipped, not in favor of the cause, but a dinner with the new sponsors. i can wear an american flag on my lapel but that doesn't make me a patriot. i can wear a yellow band on my wrist but that doesn't mean i give a rat's ass about what it signifies. either of those things may lead people to believe things about me that aren't necessarily true. what/where am i missing?

[KJMUNC]

The ironic thing about all this arguing is that no-one is talking about how much of OUR money is being wasted in this joke of an "investigation".

Novitsky's "win at all costs" attitude to chasing down grown men who violate a rule of a GAME is costing us taxpayers millions. Why not spend time chasing down drug dealers who kill people, human smugglers who abandon people in the desert, or any of 1,000 other felony types that plague our society.

Let WADA/USADA do their job. Novitsky is nothing more than our generation's Elliott Ness.

[firerescuefin]

The sound of the peleton coming to Lance's defense.......

Cricket.....Cricket.......Cricket


Tells you something doesn't it. A lot of guys have ridden with/for Lance.


Cricket....Cricket......Cricket


Somewhere in Italy, Mr. Simeoni is smiling.

[Rueda Tropical]

Novitsky's "win at all costs" attitude to chasing down grown men who violate a rule of a GAME is costing us taxpayers millions.

Lance is not getting investigated for breaking some UCI rule or violating the rules of any game or sport. He is being investigated for breaking various US laws. Sport is a mega business just like banking, stock trading or insurance. If your illegal activities involve millions of dollars and are very high profile don't be surprised if you wind up in a prosecutors sights.

We have gone from the "Lance is the most tested athlete" defense (he never doped) to the "it's a witch hunt at taxpayers expense" (he doped, so what) defense. So what stage is this? We have passed through denial, we are now in anger, what comes next?

[Climb01742]

The ironic thing about all this arguing is that no-one is talking about how much of OUR money is being wasted in this joke of an "investigation".

Novitsky's "win at all costs" attitude to chasing down grown men who violate a rule of a GAME is costing us taxpayers millions. Why not spend time chasing down drug dealers who kill people, human smugglers who abandon people in the desert, or any of 1,000 other felony types that plague our society.

Let WADA/USADA do their job. Novitsky is nothing more than our generation's Elliott Ness.

one advantage the feds have is...a lie can mean discovering what prison is like. while we can certainly honestly disagree, i personally don't feel BALCO was a waste of money. sport plays a central role in american life and investigating cheating/doping in sport is worthwhile to me. just my 2 cents.

[retrofit]

Lance is not getting investigated for breaking some UCI rule or violating the rules of any game or sport. He is being investigated for breaking various US laws. Sport is a mega business just like banking, stock trading or insurance. If your illegal activities involve millions of dollars and are very high profile don't be surprised if you wind up in a prosecutors sights.

We have gone from the "Lance is the most tested athlete" defense (he never doped) to the "it's a witch hunt at taxpayers expense" (he doped, so what) defense. So what stage is this? We have passed through denial, we are now in anger, what comes next?

Bargaining.

[BengeBoy]

:rolleyes:

More specifically, I think you meant "plea" bargaining.

[firerescuefin]

You know when you pull the "Un-American" card....things are getting desperate.

[54ny77]

i want my gran fondo registration $ back.

[93legendti]

A former teammate of Armstrong said in a telephone interview Wednesday that he had spoken with investigators. He said he detailed some of his own drug use, as well as the widespread cheating that he said went on as part of the Postal Service team — all of which he said was done with Armstrong’s knowledge and encouragement.
I didn't


Novitzky, the lead investigator in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative steroids case, is trying to determine if Armstrong, his teammates, the owners or managers of his former team conspired to defraud their sponsors by doping to improve their performance and win more money and prizes.


Interesting argument...the sponsors were defrauded-by all the publicity Armstrong/USPS generated by winning?
It be interesting to see how USPS' business "suffered" during the 1998-2004 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/sports/cycling/05armstrong.html?_r=3&hp

[steampunk]

local reportage on the topic from the austin-american statesman.

Lance Armstrong in race to preserve reputation (http://www.statesman.com/news/local/lance-armstrong-in-race-to-preserve-reputation-846326.html?srcTrk=RTR_781143&viewAsSinglePage=true)

[Rueda Tropical]

Novitzky, the lead investigator in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative steroids case, is trying to determine if Armstrong, his teammates, the owners or managers of his former team conspired to defraud their sponsors by doping to improve their performance and win more money and prizes. [/I]


Interesting argument...the sponsors were defrauded-by all the publicity Armstrong/USPS generated by winning?
It be interesting to see how USPS' business "suffered" during the 1998-2004 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/sports/cycling/05armstrong.html?_r=3&hp

No one has any idea what charges Novitzky will be bringing as he has said zero about it to the media and will keep it all secret until charges are filed. So it's all speculation.

The only thing that is certain is that the charges will be for violations of law on the part of the charged. The law is the law. If I rob a bank so I can donate the money to charity it does not change the crime. If Novitzky can prove LA broke some law or laws he can charge him. If LA lies about his actions to the Feds they can jail him for perjury even if they can't nail him on anything else.

[Elefantino]

i want my gran fondo registration $ back.
Why? Think of what they could be passing out at the sag stops.

[54ny77]

ahh, good point! :banana:

Why? Think of what they could be passing out at the sag stops.