USADA out for blood with Lance...almost literally!

[firerescuefin]

More and more this feels like a witchhunt. I have my issues with LA, but how in the he** is Floyd Landis credible with regards to anything other than living a life of lies and denial.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5431631

[peanutgallery]

I'll take your bait, and raise you one more:

Is Lance credible? Who's living the bigger lie? If you're going to ask the question I'll throw up there, in the spirit of cycling and nice people having a discussion of course.

[dixiesdad]

I'm just glad I don't have to blood dope for my job......I am a runner at heart and remember the accusations against Lasse Viren in the olympics in the 1970s for the same issue. Steve Prefontaine may have been a casuality of this if it were correct. not unique to cycling.....

[firerescuefin]

Peanutgallery....no bait. I really want to see the truth...the good or the bad and the ugly. I don't count somebody as a hero "on the bike" because he is trying to rid the world of anything.

I just despise Landis. How do you take millions in donations for your LDF and write a book about your innocence, and then say "my bad"...then expect (and be given) the credibility to throw essentially all of USA cycling (relevant riders) under the bus.

[peanutgallery]

The Flandis LDF was all planned down at the Legion, I will give you that.

The other one, I don't know....

[michael white]

Just about every American pro cyclist is accused. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the "lie" that the others are supposedly living? Ever. On this forum or any other. Maybe it's because no one really cares, after all, about the drug thing . . .

In which case, yeah, it does start to seem like a witch hunt.

[Jason E]

I'm no "LA" fan either, but I was thinking something similar to the OP when reading the bit today on Cyclingnews regarding Michael Ball.

Headline connects MB to LA, but when you read it, they are refering to the whole thing as the LA Case, even though it is talking about Ball, Bahati, Landis, and Hamilton. No connection.

Burn him or don't, but sheesh this is tiring.

[Frankwurst]

Innocent until proven guilty. That's the law. Pretty black and white in my book. You can take any other person accused of wrong doing in this great land and speculate and form opinions all you want. That would be freedom of speech. :beer:

[Kublai]

Caught doping today? Throw the book at 'em. Caught 10 years ago? What about 20-30 years ago for America's early stars like Eustice, Boyer, the 7-Eleven gang? Does anybody really want to open that can of worms? We all know that with a few exceptions (yes, I believe Lemond was a purist although even that's not provable) doping and drugs were rampant, so it is a reasonable conclusion that many folks we admire for their accomplishments were involved. But can't we just move forward? In our lifetime these riders and more will all have an invisible asterisk next to their exploits because of what we already know...or suspect. When we're gone who cares?

[Walter]

The dirty business of offering deals to those who can help a prosecutor in their quest to nail a target takes place every day. It has always struck me, during almost 40 years of being a lawyer in the criminal justice system, as below the bar to preselect the target and then dangle the bait of a sweetheart deal in front of an individual the prosecutor had another case against: "We have got you nailed, but if you help us against Mr. XYZ, we can give you the world..." Of course some will say what they think they need to in order to earn themselves a break, whether true or not.

On another note is the question of why are we even spending a nickel of taxpayer money on this when the statute of limitations has run and there is no case unless a prosecutor gets very creative. You know, there is real crime with real victims out there that deserves this allocation of resources before this case.

[pbjbike]

Caught doping today? Throw the book at 'em. Caught 10 years ago? What about 20-30 years ago for America's early stars like Eustice, Boyer, the 7-Eleven gang?SNIP

What???!!! Boyer, Eusitce, 7-11 Gang??? Tour stage win by Phinney, Giro overall win by Hampsten, Giro stage win by Kiefel...Remind me if I missed one. Their results were sporadic and they never dominated: They worked their asses off for a decade. Don't know what you're getting at.

[false_Aest]

. . . . .

I'll start to care when . . . . . . .

. . . . it's considered illegal for me to stop drinking coffee 4 days before a crit and then have a Red Bull 20 minutes before hand
. . . . they start searching gear bags for advil and excedrine
. . . . there's a mandatory lights out and bugle call for everyone in the peleton
. . . . riders must check in every night at an altitude of no more than 1,000'
. . . . every team has the same doctor
. . . . etc.

[rugbysecondrow]

SNIP

What???!!! Boyer, Eusitce, 7-11 Gang??? Tour stage win by Phinney, Giro overall win by Hampsten, Giro stage win by Kiefel...Remind me if I missed one. Their results were sporadic and they never dominated: They worked their asses off for a decade. Don't know what you're getting at.

He isn't making an accusation but rather articulating the can of worms. If LA is not longer cycling professionally, should anybody care about what somebody now says about something that happened a decade ago? No. If there was proof, it would be out by now. If there was a gotcha or a smoking gun, it would have seen the light of day. I have no idea whether he doped or not, but I know it really doesn't matter, unless you are a hater.

[kestrel]

SNIP

What???!!! Boyer, Eusitce, 7-11 Gang??? Tour stage win by Phinney, Giro overall win by Hampsten, Giro stage win by Kiefel...Remind me if I missed one. Their results were sporadic and they never dominated: They worked their asses off for a decade. Don't know what you're getting at.


Okay, how about Mr. G. Lemond? He and Hinault, two teammates, ride away from groups of professionals and win Tour stages by several minutes. No, he never doped!!!!!! He's as clean as the driven snow for sure! Glass houses and stones come to mind.

[pbjbike]

He isn't making an accusation but rather articulating the can of worms. If LA is not longer cycling professionally, should anybody care about what somebody now says about something that happened a decade ago? No. If there was proof, it would be out by now. If there was a gotcha or a smoking gun, it would have seen the light of day. I have no idea whether he doped or not, but I know it really doesn't matter, unless you are a hater.

You were doing all right until the caveat about anyone disagreeing with you being a hater... Really? Can of worms and 7-11? Did you discovered cycling in the late 90's and your hero is under scrutiny? LA's been racing since his "comeback", so it's relevant. You don't make the rules of discussion, sorry. There are several hundred frozen blood and urine samples from LA still preserved, and new test procedures to review them. Deal with the investigation's results if you can stomach the outcome. I built him bike when he was 19 years old and always wanted the best for him and his career. I would like nothing more than to see a thorough investigation, and for him to be exonerated.

[pbjbike]

Okay, how about Mr. G. Lemond? He and Hinault, two teammates, ride away from groups of professionals and win Tour stages by several minutes. No, he never doped!!!!!! He's as clean as the driven snow for sure! Glass houses and stones come to mind.

Um, I guess you've never been in good enough shape to ride away from a group. It's a great feeling. Train harder, you can do it! :beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

You were doing all right until the caveat about anyone disagreeing with you being a hater... Really? Can of worms and 7-11? Did you discovered cycling in the late 90's and your hero is under scrutiny? LA's been racing since his "comeback", so it's relevant. You don't make the rules of discussion, sorry. There are several hundred frozen blood and urine samples from LA still preserved, and new test procedures to review them. Deal with the investigation's results if you can stomach the outcome. I built him bike when he was 19 years old and always wanted the best for him and his career. I would like nothing more than to see a thorough investigation, and for him to be exonerated.

Actually I discovered girls in the early 1990's, rugby in the late 1990's, triathlons in the late 2000's, and I am not into cycling aside from the occasional stage in July while I am falling asleep (because it is desparately boring). To me, 7-11 is where I buy coffee and ****ty donuts, so I have no hero issue here, believe that. What I don't like are neverending discussions involving haters who, frankly, have less and less to base their opinions on as time goes by. And no, there is nothing to be gained here, just haters acting out for what? They have nothing to gain but their own joy in bringing Lance down.

You say you want the investigation to be seen through, but how many investigations have been "seen through"? When do we say "when"? It is time to say uncle.

[Elefantino]

Find a wall.

Walk to the wall.

Get real close.

Lean back.

Slam your head into the wall as hard as you can.

Repeat as necessary until you no longer care who did or didn't dope.

Thank me later.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to keep things civil. I'm a "hater" of having to close threads. :D

BBD

[michael white]

Don't we all feel better now?

I don't feel so good. And I discovered cycling in the early 60s, riding to kindergarten with blocks on my pedals.

[firerescuefin]

"Find a wall.

Walk to the wall.

Get real close.

Lean back.

Slam your head into the wall as hard as you can.

Repeat as necessary until you no longer care who did or didn't dope.

Thank me later."




I notice you put some spin on this basic idea on any post regarding doping. I appreciate your point.....and you certainly have made it.

But as someone who races, loves the sport, and has 2 boys that are getting into the sport. Heroes, doping, purging the sport of the current generation of dopers actually means something to me.

One of my best friends and teammates here has a daughter that just won the national championship TT 12-13 and came in 3rd in the road race. As she is being identified for Olympic development (and doping just as prevalent at the women's elite level)...it matters to him. He is a former national masters champion on the track, and still competes at that level....it matters to him.

So in the future when you see the posts regarding doping, just pass over and move on. It's Ok you don't care. It's Ok for those that do.

[Pete Serotta]

. . . to keep things civil. I'm a "hater" of having to close threads. :D

BBD


Keeping things civil is always the wisest information sharing process. :banana:

[BumbleBeeDave]

He gets ornery when he has a headache. :no: :rolleyes:

BBD

[rugbysecondrow]

"Find a wall.

Walk to the wall.

Get real close.

Lean back.

Slam your head into the wall as hard as you can.

Repeat as necessary until you no longer care who did or didn't dope.

Thank me later."




I notice you put some spin on this basic idea on any post regarding doping. I appreciate your point.....and you certainly have made it.

But as someone who races, loves the sport, and has 2 boys that are getting into the sport. Heroes, doping, purging the sport of the current generation of dopers actually means something to me.

One of my best friends and teammates here has a daughter that just won the national championship TT 12-13 and came in 3rd in the road race. As she is being identified for Olympic development (and doping just as prevalent at the women's elite level)...it matters to him. He is a former national masters champion on the track, and still competes at that level....it matters to him.

So in the future when you see the posts regarding doping, just pass over and move on. It's Ok you don't care. It's Ok for those that do.


I appreciate your perspective and I agree with the sentiment that sports and athletics should be clean and drug free. You might disagree with Elephantino's tact, but I agree with what he said, "who cares who DID or DIDN'T dope"? What good does it do for the current races and kids coming up to dredge up all of this mess from the past? Test the present, do what you can to make it clean and honest, let the past be the past...it is not worth it.

[Elefantino]

I appreciate your perspective and I agree with the sentiment that sports and athletics should be clean and drug free. You might disagree with Elephantino's tact, but I agree with what he said, "who cares who DID or DIDN'T dope"? What good does it do for the current races and kids coming up to dredge up all of this mess from the past? Test the present, do what you can to make it clean and honest, let the past be the past...it is not worth it.
Nailed it.

Dopers, present and future, important.

Dopers, past, not so much.

Charles Barkley: "Professional athletes shouldn't be heroes."

Firerescue: Getting your boys into the sport? You're the hero.

[pbjbike]

Actually I discovered girls in the early 1990's, rugby in the late 1990's, triathlons in the late 2000's, and I am not into cycling aside from the occasional stage in July while I am falling asleep (because it is desparately boring). To me, 7-11 is where I buy coffee and [/QUOT****ty donuts, so I have no hero issue here, believe that. What I don't like are neverending discussions involving haters who, frankly, have less and less to base their opinions on as time goes by. And no, there is nothing to be gained here, just haters acting out for what? They have nothing to gain but their own joy in bringing Lance down.

You say you want the investigation to be seen through, but how many investigations have been "seen through"? When do we say "when"? It is time to say uncle.

Paul, thanks for the update. Your passion for the sport is enviable. Good to see you are consistent with labels. The word I used is "thorough:, not through... :rolleyes

BBDave, if this is over the line, go for it, and close the thread. While Pete has been gone, oversight has been minimal. I welcome Pete and his significant wisdom back. :beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

Paul, thanks for the update. Your passion for the sport is enviable. Good to see you are consistent with labels. The word I used is "thorough:, not through... :rolleyes




Through, Thorough...it really doesn't does matter, does it? The point is the same, when is enough, enough?

I have a passion for riding bikes, some might envy that. You seem really angry about this, aren't we just talking here? It is just bikes and guys who ride them...no big deal.

[pbjbike]

Through, Thorough...it really doesn't does matter, does it? The point is the same, when is enough, enough?

I have a passion for riding bikes, some might envy that. You seem really angry about this, aren't we just talking here? It is just bikes and guys who ride them...no big deal.

Paul, look up "transference", after you look up "thorough".

[rugbysecondrow]

Paul, look up "transference", after you look up "thorough".
That is not polite. You know that this is just a sport we are talking about.

This reminds me of being at a Phillies or a JETS game, fans taking a game way too seriously.

[JohnHemlock]

This reminds me of being at a Phillies or a JETS game, fans taking a game way too seriously.

Agreed, its sort of sad. If people gave this much of a **** about post-Katrina the lower Ninth Ward would be sparkling like a new dime!

[don compton]

SNIP

What???!!! Boyer, Eusitce, 7-11 Gang??? Tour stage win by Phinney, Giro overall win by Hampsten, Giro stage win by Kiefel...Remind me if I missed one. Their results were sporadic and they never dominated: They worked their asses off for a decade. Don't know what you're getting at.
this is a great example of the damage doping has done to the sport. if anybody wins a race, we suspect him of doping. sure, the guys after ww11 were heavily doped, but after the t. simpson death, things came out into the open. we still had dopers, but it wasn't the main story.
does anyone think that "wada" or the writer " david someone" really cares about cycling? the majority of us, at any age could just have someone pour these ped's down our throats and we would not be able to finish the tour de france. i am not sure which guy dopes, but , i really don't care. wada is the next ncaa.

[54ny77]

"In 2007, Landis said USADA offered him a similar deal to finger Armstrong. At the time, Landis called the offer "offensive"..."

Sounds like a San Fernando Valley plot if there ever was one... :banana:

[Rueda Tropical]

If the labs and the UCI were / are corrupt and the network of doctor's and DS's developed during the Armstrong era are still untouched then doping will remain rampant in ever evolving forms.

An investigation as widespread and involving as many law enforcement agencies as the Armstrong investigation has got enough power and reach to uncover the whole rat's nest. That will force some serious and wide reaching changes that could actually have the effect of cleaning up cycling for a while. I think the heat may already be having an effect.

No sporting authority could ever have done that. Just like Armstrong's larger then life impact on the business of cycling, he may have a larger then life effect on cleaning it up. Prosecutors don't spend the big bucks on obscure figures breaking the law, they want the Mafia Don or Wall Street whiz kid who is already a household name. Armstrong provided the kind of high profile and stature that makes him the perfect foil for a headline grabbing and well funded takedown.

LA knew the risks. Coming back to ride Pro was really tempting fate. He could have bought off Landis for less then his lawyers will be charging him for a day. Two big mistakes. Big risk brings bigger rewards. It also has a bigger downside. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Whether it's Vino, Basso, Landis, Pantani or Armstrong or one of the many that doped and still have not been nailed - they are all grownups who chose to take the risk. They knew the consequences going in so I'm not going to be shedding any tears or wringing my hands about who should get a pass and who should and shouldn't be prosecuted.

[BumbleBeeDave]

BBDave, if this is over the line, go for it, and close the thread. While Pete has been gone, oversight has been minimal. I welcome Pete and his significant wisdom back. :beer:

. . . I will use my relatively insignificant wisdom to tell Rueda "You nailed it. I agree with you totally."

Just everybody discuss the issue rather than each other's spelling skills and all will be fine.

BBD

[William]

. . .

Just everybody discuss the issue rather than each other's spelling skills and all will be fine.

BBD


http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0809/grass-knuckles-brass-grass-knuckles-spellcheck-spell-check-p-demotivational-poster-1221154889.jpg

[rugbysecondrow]

I think being an outsider looking in, a peripheral fan, I have a different perspective.

I don't disagree with rueda in him saying "if you can't do the time don't do the crime", but I wonder at what point it becomes a witch hunt? In addition, you brought up Lance bringing this on himself, but even when he was retired and running marathons these conversations and a accusations were ongoing...they never really ceased did they? Haven't there been numerous investigations?

Applied to other sports, Favre, Griffey,Maddox...we could go back and investigate the he'll out of them because they exhibited physical skills well above their peers, but of course that would not be right, why is that not true with Lance? It seems like he is constantly held up to a standard that is impossible for him to ever meet.

[Rueda Tropical]

It seems like he is constantly held up to a standard that is impossible for him to ever meet.

I used to live down the street from the longest surviving Mafia Don ("Chin" Gigante). He lived in his mother's tenement apartment and walked across the street everyday in a bathrobe to get a shave at the barber where he held court with his lieutenants. No flash, no media attention, he kept as low a profile as possible, acted crazy and not competent. He outlasted guys like Gotti because of it.

Lance set the standard for himself. The media narrative, the 7 tour wins, the comeback. If you got away with it for 7 Tour wins, be grateful and call it a day.

[rugbysecondrow]

I used to live down the street from the longest surviving Mafia Don ("Chin" Gigante). He lived in his mother's tenement apartment and walked across the street everyday in a bathrobe to get a shave at the barber where he held court with his lieutenants. No flash, no media attention, he kept as low a profile as possible, acted crazy and not competent. He outlasted guys like Gotti because of it.

Lance set the standard for himself. The media narrative, the 7 tour wins, the comeback. If you got away with it for 7 Tour wins, be grateful and call it a day.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. It seems you are saying that since he is successful, that he deserves this and I disagree with that. That is not a standard set in other athletics (hockey, baseball, football, basketball etc) and it seems that people are all to willing to want to beat him down. Frankly, I don't get it. Is it because he seems like a prick, because he brought cycling to the masses and made it no longer "our thing" (like when your favorite off-beat band gets played on the radio for the first time and now everybody likes like), is it the yellow bracelets, because he won and people hate winners? I am not certain, but it seems that his winning and his success didn't set the standard, his charitable work has set another positive standard (more so than any other pro athlete IMO), others have heaped their standards on him in the hope of burying him, and that seems wrong.

[Rueda Tropical]

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. It seems you are saying that since he is successful, that he deserves this and I disagree with that.

No. I'm not saying because he is successful. It's because he may have achieved success by cheating and breaking the law. You don't get investigated for success, just for being the most successful crook.

[SEABREEZE]

The dirty business of offering deals to those who can help a prosecutor in their quest to nail a target takes place every day. It has always struck me, during almost 40 years of being a lawyer in the criminal justice system, as below the bar to preselect the target and then dangle the bait of a sweetheart deal in front of an individual the prosecutor had another case against: "We have got you nailed, but if you help us against Mr. XYZ, we can give you the world..." Of course some will say what they think they need to in order to earn themselves a break, whether true or not.

On another note is the question of why are we even spending a nickel of taxpayer money on this when the statute of limitations has run and there is no case unless a prosecutor gets very creative. You know, there is real crime with real victims out there that deserves this allocation of resources before this case.

Dont know who else caught this segment on Versues this year, a commentator was asking Lance about Landis, with disbeleif, Lance answers we all contributed funds to support his trial, and now he is involving us.

Since he lost, and as Walter suggested, perhaps the prosecutor offered him a deal , he couldn't refuse...

[rugbysecondrow]

No. I'm not saying because he is successful. It's because he may have achieved success by cheating and breaking the law. You don't get investigated for success, just for being the most successful crook.

I am just trying to understand your point because it seems you are circling it rather than making it. It seems you think he is a crook and you want an investigation, is that correct? You also seem to think he deserves this because of his success and decision to ride again...is that correct.

It seems that you and other don't want an investigation, but rather an inquisition that has a conclusion consistent with your beliefs. Would you accept the results of an investigation the finds no cheating...I doubt it.

It seems regardless of the outcome, you would not change your opinion that he is a crook and a cheat (and you are not alone in that). With that said, what good does an investigation actually do? It is win-win for the anti-Lance camp: there are either findings he cheated or people believe he cheated and got away...either way nothing is lost by constantly pushing for an investigation. Lance has nothing to gain by this as it is lose lose...you cannot prove a negative so he will never be exonerated, if he cheated he could be found out.

Win-win vs. Lose-lose...seems a little unbalanced to me.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm just glad I don't have to blood dope for my job......I am a runner at heart and remember the accusations against Lasse Viren in the olympics in the 1970s for the same issue. Steve Prefontaine may have been a casuality of this if it were correct. not unique to cycling.....

Blood doping was legal until 1985, common even.

[Rueda Tropical]

I am just trying to understand your point because it seems you are circling it rather than making it. It seems you think he is a crook and you want an investigation, is that correct? You also seem to think he deserves this because of his success and decision to ride again...is that correct.

There was sufficient evidence that Lance may be the most successful and high profile cheat in cycling. That involved breaking quite a few laws, thus an investigation. They always go after the biggest fish in an illegal scam and Lance is the whale. Not hard to understand and no different then breaking the law in any other field.

Do it with a high profile and lot's of media attention and expect to get caught. I don't get what the big mystery is or how Lance is "special".

[Lifelover]

"Find a wall.

Walk to the wall.

Get real close.

Lean back.

Slam your head into the wall as hard as you can.

Repeat as necessary until you no longer care who did or didn't dope.

Thank me later."




I notice you put some spin on this basic idea on any post regarding doping. I appreciate your point.....and you certainly have made it.

But as someone who races, loves the sport, and has 2 boys that are getting into the sport. Heroes, doping, purging the sport of the current generation of dopers actually means something to me.

One of my best friends and teammates here has a daughter that just won the national championship TT 12-13 and came in 3rd in the road race. As she is being identified for Olympic development (and doping just as prevalent at the women's elite level)...it matters to him. He is a former national masters champion on the track, and still competes at that level....it matters to him.

So in the future when you see the posts regarding doping, just pass over and move on. It's Ok you don't care. It's Ok for those that do.

I will raise the BS flag on this. If you, your kids or anyone else decides to take PEDS it will not be because their hero did. It will simply be because they know/think it will make them faster/stronger/better.

And honestly, I don't give a Rat's A$$ about it. People all over the world are making bad decisions all the time. If your boys decide to dope and my boys decide to smoke dope, I don’t plan on blaming anyone except them, you and me. If you want to continue to blame others for you children's character flaws, you have a long road ahead of you.

And just in case it is not clear:

I like many, many others, do not care at all if athletes use PEDs. I also don’t care what the sports governing bodies do to stop or control it. For me it is pure entrainment. Does anybody really care if our favorite actor or musician gets stoned? I don't.

[michael white]

I like many, many others, do not care at all if athletes use PEDs. I also don’t care what the sports governing bodies do to stop or control it. For me it is pure entrainment. Does anybody really care if our favorite actor or musician gets stoned? I don't.

I pretty much agree. I also think it's really questionable ethics to try to reach back into time to punish past offenses. In the 70s, everyone over the age of 13 did things that today would seem pretty shocking. Cultures change quickly, and today's normal is tomorrow's extreme. Sports is even more dramatic in that regard because the technology changes so rapidly . . . but cyclists have a long storied tradition of using what's available. It isn't a secret. If we're going to start going back into time, and back into European culture and time, what next, do we start digging up the deceased (Pantani Simpson et. al.) and turn them over to forensics? Why? I really think this investigation seems to be crossing over not only into questionable legality and motives, but borderline craziness. Not to mention which, it undermines the integrity of the testing process. Why should a team comply with testing, if the testing doesn't mean anything anyway? I bet the whole thing backfires.

[Ahneida Ride]

Federal investigators in Los Angeles are looking at cheating in professional cycling and have shown interest in Armstrong since former teammate and 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis alleged this spring that Armstrong and others took performance-enhancing drugs, which Armstrong strongly denies.

Federal Officials ????

No wonder the national debt is approaching the GDP.

Is there anything Big Brother won't protect us from ?

[rugbysecondrow]

Why should a team comply with testing, if the testing doesn't mean anything anyway? I bet the whole thing backfires.

This is important. If tests were given, and the althetes passed the tests, then it is time to move on. If people take tests, pass them, then we go back and question the validity of the tests, what is the point. Again, you can't prove a negative, but that is what "fans" seem to want. Note, this is accross all lines of althetics and sports.

[William]

Federal investigators in Los Angeles are looking at cheating in professional cycling and have shown interest in Armstrong since former teammate and 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis alleged this spring that Armstrong and others took performance-enhancing drugs, which Armstrong strongly denies.

Federal Officials ????

No wonder the national debt is approaching the GDP.

Is there anything Big Brother won't protect us from ?


Smoke and mirrors.

Gives the appearance of doing something without having to tackle really politically tough issues. plus, the average Joe Schmo thinks cyclists are a pain in the arse any way. Hey, maybe it's just pandering to the masses? :rolleyes:





William

[SEABREEZE]

How do most of you fill about a prosecutor, making a high profile case, and winning, to promote his own agenda to continue climbing the political ladder.

Say it ant so.

[Rueda Tropical]

Why should a team comply with testing, if the testing doesn't mean anything anyway? I bet the whole thing backfires.

A lot of the people involved are still active in cycling professionally. Certainly the 2 main subjects were active when the investigation began. So this is not just an exercise in looking back. Who knows, Alberto Contador the #1 racer today rode for JB. It might involve him as well.

I think blood should be stored and retested at one or two occasions in the future so that even if you have the current tests beat or the current testers paid off you run the risk of getting caught in the near future.

It's all about risk reward. If the risks are too great for the potential reward people will not take the chance. People on that level are well represented and can't be railroaded. It's the government that will look stupid if they did not break the law and if they did... take it like a man, don't cry because you got busted.

[michael white]

A lot of the people involved are still active in cycling professionally. Certainly the 2 main subjects were active when the investigation began. So this is not just an exercise in looking back. Who knows, Alberto Contador the #1 racer today rode for JB. It might involve him as well.

I think blood should be stored and retested at one or two occasions in the future so that even if you have the current tests beat or the current testers paid off you run the risk of getting caught in the near future.

It's all about risk reward. If the risks are too great for the potential reward people will not take the chance. People on that level are well represented and can't be railroaded. It's the government that will look stupid if they did not break the law and if they did... take it like a man, don't cry because you got busted.

Wasn't Contador (his team anyway) already busted?

[Charles M]

Contador no, but then blood bags from Puerto marked AC were refused to be handed over by the spanish for testing versus Contador's blood.

And Contador's manager was Manolo Saiz... The guy who was caught in front of the Puerto House with a suitcase stuffed with something like 75,000 in cash...


The Spanish tried like hell to keep Valverde out of penalty and he just now got suspended. No way they allow AC to fall...




As for the added incentives and calling Tyler Hamilton to speak, That's genious!

It is literally scraping the bottom of the barrel offering pardons to convicts serving sentances... And with Tyler there's an up side! Both he and his twin can stand up in court and swear things and that would be twice as good as on Floyd!


;)

[JMerring]

Forget about the past, ignore the wrongdoing and just move on? I'm glad the allied powers, the Israelis and the South Africans - to name just a few of those who appear most prominently in my mind - didn't feel that way.

Why do we care? Some of us like to know that the guys and gals we watch compete do so based on their natural talent, hard work and good luck alone. I don't cheat in my professional life and I hope that others don't cheat in theirs. What's wrong with that? Why impute hatred/animosity/jealousy/etc. into my skepticism - which, in certain circumstances, is more than a little bit justified - of some peoples' professional accomplishments?

For the record, I don't hate Lance. Not even remotely. Nor do I wish upon him any ill will. I used to love the guy and think he was clean. Now, he's just like a saddle sore.

[Acotts]

I will raise the BS flag on this. If you, your kids or anyone else decides to take PEDS it will not be because their hero did. It will simply be because they know/think it will make them faster/stronger/better.




To say that what your athletic heroes are doing has no impact on youth culture does not sit right with me. (FTR, I am not saying you are wrong. Just that it doesn't sit right.)

I am a bit younger than most here at 29. 10 years ago, Bonds, McGuire, Giambi were hitting homers left and right. As a kid who worked his ass off in the gym and at sports in general to just be "okay", I can tell you that at 19, I would have given that steroids a try if I had been given the chance.

I am a good kid. I played team sports my whole life, was a straight-A student in HS, went to a great college, rowed on the crew team, had good manners, never arrested, never got anyone pregnant and is well loved by friends and family, etc. I am a good egg. No one, my friends, coaches, or family would have guessed that I would have jumped at the chance to take some PEDs if they came my way.

Who here has never once googled to see if they could get some sort of PED over the internet? Cialis doesn't count ;) I know I have. I always chickened out assuming that the stuff had to be fake. Why is that? I think it is becuase these atheltes make these drugs household names. They bring it to the masses.

Watching these dudes do the things I dreamed of (and worked so damn hard for) without consequences (in fact, were greatly rewarded) really got to me.

I will always be leery of saying PEDS are okay because sports are for entertainment. And I will admit my opinion is a total reflection of deep seated insecurities that many others don’t share. But I know I wasn’t the only 19 y/o out there who felt like I did.

Even though I don’t like where this Armstrong case is going, I can’t help feeling steroids have gone back to being wrong since Bonds, Giambi, Petit, McGuire were shamed. When I was in school, it sure didn’t seem like a very wrong thing to do.

The dog and pony show may be more important than actually cleaning up the sport.

[JohnHemlock]

Forget about the past, ignore the wrongdoing and just move on? I'm glad the allied powers, the Israelis and the South Africans - to name just a few of those who appear most prominently in my mind - didn't feel that way.

Hyperbole much?

[JMerring]

Hyperbole much?

The context was different and the stakes infinitely higher, but no, it wasn't an exaggeration; I think it applies all the same.

[firerescuefin]

I will raise the BS flag on this. If you, your kids or anyone else decides to take PEDS it will not be because their hero did. It will simply be because they know/think it will make them faster/stronger/better.

And honestly, I don't give a Rat's A$$ about it. People all over the world are making bad decisions all the time. If your boys decide to dope and my boys decide to smoke dope, I don’t plan on blaming anyone except them, you and me. If you want to continue to blame others for you children's character flaws, you have a long road ahead of you.

And just in case it is not clear:

I like many, many others, do not care at all if athletes use PEDs. I also don’t care what the sports governing bodies do to stop or control it. For me it is pure entrainment. Does anybody really care if our favorite actor or musician gets stoned? I don't.

Lifelover.... I have read similar posts of yours to this. I think the jist of one of them, was that because of what Lance has done for Cancer, nothing else that he has done (wrong if he did) matters. I find your views of moral relativism and utilitarianism....laughable.

And just in case it is not clear:

I don't expect anyone to raise my children for me. Nor, do I expect to receive advice as a father, or judgement of how someone perceives I raise my children on a cycling forum unless I explicitly ask for it.

As a father, and someone who loves the sport of cycling (not just getting out on my bike and enjoying God's creation....although I enjoy that too)....and as a father that wants to share that with my boys, I would like cycling to be clean. If that mean's taking down some of your WWF cycling entertainers than I am all for it. I am sorry if cycling loses entertainment value for a "true fan" like yourself.

[Pete Serotta]

" what Lance has done for Cancer, nothing else that he has done (wrong if he did) matters. " (This is what I respect him for (me Pete)

His cancer drive could not be more honorable. Lance led in cancer by example and hope in what can be accomplished by ALL.

No I am not a LANCE fan (and I am not looking for a glass of red with him) but I am a LANCE admirer and what he has done for addressing CANCER by example.

He came back from being tossed to the side by the league due to his illness. He overcame the illness, fought back to being a competitor and also helped many in cancer area if by no other reason than example and will to fight on!!!


Please lets not get bogged down in PEDs and who and who not!!!


Thanks PETE

[54ny77]

I hope my favorite musicians/band continue to use plenty of dope, because if they stopped, god forbid they'd start sounding like Celine Dion.

[JMerring]

I hope my favorite musicians/band continue to use plenty of dope, because if they stopped, god forbid they'd start sounding like Celine Dion.

I once saw an interview with Bono where he was asked whether he gets high for performances. He laughed and said he'd done it a few times when he was younger but quickly realized it was counterproductive to his performances. For him, being in complete control is key to performing well and, unlike our sporting heros, his contraband of choice had the opposite effect. Having the connection that I do with 60s counterculture, I agree with your basic premise, however! :beer:

[54ny77]

interesting. i wouldn't doubt it, because the guy jibber jabbers too much in shows as it is and likely needs to think clearly. if he was trashed, it'd be worse than it already is! ;) :D

I once saw an interview with Bono where he was asked whether he gets high for performances. He laughed and said he'd done it a few times when he was younger but quickly realized it was counterproductive to his performances. For him, being in complete control is key to performing well and, unlike our sporting heros, his contraband of choice had the opposite effect.

[Kublai]

...from someone I agreed with." I'm not sure who said that but this forum on drugs and cheats and Lance has sure given me the chance to learn something given the varying opinions!

Mostly I've learned that few of you seem to change your minds on this subject, regardless of altenative viewpoints being expressed - the opinions are pretty much locked down. All of you "haters" (that's a joke, guys/girls) feel that only with total and complete visibility into any possible sin of the past will the world be righted (OK, this comes in varying degrees but you get my point). And those of you who are willing to forgive, forget and/or move on (I wish you had a label as fun as "haters") feel that so long as we focus on the future we'll be OK, the past doesn't need to be dragged out of the closet.

I guess I haven't really learned anything about whether Lance is guilty, all the opinions in the world can't define that. Only investigative and legal procedings will, where laws, facts and strategies get blended in that unique alchemy that ultimately yields an outcome. But I'm pretty sure that no matter what the legal outcome, most everyone will maintain their opinion as it sits today. Interesting, no?

[54ny77]

I've learned that I really can't stand Celine Dion and that carbon paste is preferred.

[William]

I've learned that people are people.


http://www.as220.org/front/2009/09/08/Village%2BPeople%2B538840653_452839dd1c_o.jpg


And people make the Village.



William :p

[54ny77]

http://www.usasurvival.org/images/hillary.jpg


And people make the Village.

William :p

[Lifelover]

Lifelover.... I have read similar posts of yours to this. I think the jist of one of them, was that because of what Lance has done for Cancer, nothing else that he has done (wrong if he did) matters. I find your views of moral relativism and utilitarianism....laughable.

And just in case it is not clear:

I don't expect anyone to raise my children for me. Nor, do I expect to receive advice as a father, or judgement of how someone perceives I raise my children on a cycling forum unless I explicitly ask for it.

As a father, and someone who loves the sport of cycling (not just getting out on my bike and enjoying God's creation....although I enjoy that too)....and as a father that wants to share that with my boys, I would like cycling to be clean. If that mean's taking down some of your WWF cycling entertainers than I am all for it. I am sorry if cycling loses entertainment value for a "true fan" like yourself.


I'm quite sure I have never said or implied that.

I have siad that I don't think that Lance being "caught" will make a big difference to his foundation.

I think that, for the most part, the american public does not really care that much about PEDs. In a large degree, performance enhancing cheats are an accepted part of out sports culture.

There is a MAJOR difference in cheating that directly enhances your performance and cheating that directly decreases your competitors performance. Taking PEDS and paying someone to take a bat to your competitors knee IS NOT the same thing. ATMO

Those on the board that think they are (or even may really be) holier than thou may not like it, but it's true.

And to campare what it takes to be a top rate athlete to us common folk with common jobs is crazy. I don't lie and cheat at my job but I can't say I would not if I was at the absolute pinnacle of a sport and a umpteen million dollar contract was online.

[Lifelover]

To say that what your athletic heroes are doing has no impact on youth culture does not sit right with me. (FTR, I am not saying you are wrong. Just that it doesn't sit right.)

I am a bit younger than most here at 29. 10 years ago, Bonds, McGuire, Giambi were hitting homers left and right. As a kid who worked his ass off in the gym and at sports in general to just be "okay", I can tell you that at 19, I would have given that steroids a try if I had been given the chance.

I am a good kid. I played team sports my whole life, was a straight-A student in HS, went to a great college, rowed on the crew team, had good manners, never arrested, never got anyone pregnant and is well loved by friends and family, etc. I am a good egg. No one, my friends, coaches, or family would have guessed that I would have jumped at the chance to take some PEDs if they came my way.

Who here has never once googled to see if they could get some sort of PED over the internet? Cialis doesn't count ;) I know I have. I always chickened out assuming that the stuff had to be fake. Why is that? I think it is becuase these atheltes make these drugs household names. They bring it to the masses.

Watching these dudes do the things I dreamed of (and worked so damn hard for) without consequences (in fact, were greatly rewarded) really got to me.

I will always be leery of saying PEDS are okay because sports are for entertainment. And I will admit my opinion is a total reflection of deep seated insecurities that many others don’t share. But I know I wasn’t the only 19 y/o out there who felt like I did.

Even though I don’t like where this Armstrong case is going, I can’t help feeling steroids have gone back to being wrong since Bonds, Giambi, Petit, McGuire were shamed. When I was in school, it sure didn’t seem like a very wrong thing to do.

The dog and pony show may be more important than actually cleaning up the sport.


I hear you and know it's a fine line but I don't think you considered PEDS because your heros did, you considered them because you wanted to be a hero.

I don't mean any disrespect, but I suspect you were never offered any because you were not good enough for them to push you over the top. At any point in your youth did you REALLY belief that PEDS would have made you good enough to go pro?

Damn near all of us would take them if it meant the difference between a wanna be and the real deal. However, almost all of us know the truth. PEDS will never make that kinda difference.

One of my concerns with the Media hype over PEDS is that it exposes the options to kids who would have otherwise not known what HGH is. Similar to the "Just Say No to Drugs" campaign years ago. There have been studies that indicate having a scare campaign against drugs ultimately may drive kids to them not away from them.

[sean]

The truth of the matter is that regardless of where your moral compass points, doping has, and most likely, always will be a part of professional cycling.

What do you think kept up 6 day racers to allow them to race for so long? "Cocktails" from their coaches. Anything from Cocaine to Chloroform.

Hell. T.A. even marketed a cycling "flask" and cage for your bike up until the 70's.

And let us not forget Mr. Plessier. "That's cocaine, for our eyes. This is chloroform, for our gums.", etc, etc.... Speaking about how riders cope with the tour.

Point being, you can form all the agencies and committees you want. You can offer sweetheart deals and the like, but doping will always find a way to exist.

At some point you have to accept it and move on. Do you have to agree with it, no. Can you have an opinion, yes. But at the end of the day, witch trials only drag a bunch of innocent people through the mud along with the guilty and do very little to legitimize any sport. Let alone push it forward.

[Pete Serotta]

Please feel free to start another thread on this topic

but I am going to say "guilty as charged" for closing (and going with MARK for a RED) Sorry


PETE