GPS (not 705)

[jcchavez]

Does anyone have a recommendation for alternates to the Garmin 705? I would prefer something with a bigger screen. I don't need the speed/cadence/HR, just a good mapping program.

[fourflys]

maybe some of the non-cycling Garmins? Like the Oregon series?

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145 (http://)

[Ray]

How about the 605? It doesn't have a bigger screen, but is an excellent cycling gps without the cadence, heart rate, etc sorts of stuff. It will tell you yor speed (although you can choose not to have it displayed), but I'm not aware of a gps that doesn't.

-Ray

[Richard]

Get a Droid phone and put it in your pocket. There are aps that will map anything you do -- walk, run, ride, etc. If you are not looking for bike sophistication, this may do the job.

[fourflys]

Get a Droid phone and put it in your pocket. There are aps that will map anything you do -- walk, run, ride, etc. If you are not looking for bike sophistication, this may do the job.

good point, I have the Droid Eris and the Google Maps App is top notch with turn by turn spoken navigation with street names... and the best thing is it's free to use... the only issue might be battery life if the intent is for longer rides/trips, the navigation mode eats a lot of battery...

[Richard]

There are aps, one is called Cardio Trainer that follow you around on GPS. Can be set for running, cycling, walking and it will provide a map as you go. Don't use it for cycling, but I have,at times used it running. Pretty accurate and it keeps a log for you. Sweating up a phone may not be ideal, but people use all kinds of electronics with no problems. As to battery, I let the screen blank and I have gone an hour with no real issues. It has a feature that pauses when you do. Can't hurt to try, it is free.

[dcuper1]

The question is what do you need from your GPS. I can't find a GPS that will give me on the same screen turn by turn directions, a map, total mileage, and mileage per hour.

An easy to read screen is essential. The map on the 705 is useless I can't read anything when I am searching for points of interest around where I am. An example was when I was looking for the Metro North train station in Tuxedo, NY. It was just 1 mile away from me buy I still couldn't find it on the 705 screen.

Also to make your route I have been using bikeroutetoaster.com because it actually adds waypoints. No other program that I have seen adds waypoints. Bikeroutetoaster is also a pain to use. It takes about 1.5 hours to add a 100 mile ride and many times there are glitches and it doesn't save all of the information and I have to do it again.

All of these apps are nice, but it is just a toy in my opinion. If you find me an app that does all of this above I will get an Android phone in a heart beat.

[jbrainin]

Find an app that does all that on a device that won't have the battery die before the end of a decent length ride and the masses will follow!

[FMS_rider]

I have no sense of direction whatsoever and have been waiting for several years now thinking that a bike-friendly (reasonably lightweight, waterproof, convenient buttons, GPS display as well as recording) unit would come along that would meet my needs.

From the specs an Oregon-series Garmin as suggested by fourfly would appear to be adequate (like jcchavez I don't need cycling-specific data). From what I have read it appears that a bottom of the line Oregon unit (e.g., model 200) would do it for me. I have access to a machine shop and would be able to cook up a solid handlebar mount.

My question is whether there are issues, not apparent in the specs, that would annoy the hell out of me if I were to use an Oregon-series unit on a bike?

Thanks in advance for any input.

As an aside, does anyone know why the 705 is so much more expensive than comparable GPS units made for automobiles? There must be standard inexpensive chip sets and displays for all of the functions of the 705. Are there large profits at one or more levels as a result of the price fixing that all of the big boys in this country now impose on retailers? Is it lack of competition? Low sales volume?

[dogdriver]

+1 all of the above.

I used to be a pretty active glider pilot and used a Garmin aviation GPS with a nice display, database, datalogging for "record flights", etc. I was more than a little chagrined that the automotive version of my GPS (different database and slightly different functionality, but essentially the same box) cost about 20% of mine. Long story, but I'll bet you could get an automotive GPS for less than $100.

That said, I'm using a Garmin 305 (no map or database) and have become addicted to the elevation function. It has also replaced the cycling computers on six bikes (I have a mount on each bike), so its pretty cheap in comparison.

I'll bet you'd enjoy the Garmin that is the 705 with no power function (the 505?-- can't remember) despite your present position that you don't want the cycling functions.

My $.02, Chris

[fourflys]

I have access to a machine shop and would be able to cook up a solid handlebar mount.


I'd be surprised if Garming didn't already have a mount that would work... they used to have handlebar mounts for their E-Trex series of hiking GPS... The machine shop might be able to make a more sturdy mount however...

Chris

[jbrainin]

As an aside, does anyone know why the 705 is so much more expensive than comparable GPS units made for automobiles? There must be standard inexpensive chip sets and displays for all of the functions of the 705. Are there large profits at one or more levels as a result of the price fixing that all of the big boys in this country now impose on retailers? Is it lack of competition? Low sales volume?

I suspect that Reason #1 would be the size factor: smaller is always more expensive. Reason #2 might be that the cost of all the other functionality crammed into that small size factor.

[dcuper1]

As an aside, does anyone know why the 705 is so much more expensive than comparable GPS units made for automobiles? There must be standard inexpensive chip sets and displays for all of the functions of the 705. Are there large profits at one or more levels as a result of the price fixing that all of the big boys in this country now impose on retailers? Is it lack of competition? Low sales volume?

The Garmin 705 is the only one who supposedly gives you bike related info plus maps plus GPS. Nobody else does that. People want the convenience of everything in one unit. That is basically why it is so expensive, there just is no competition.

I have the 705 and I think it sucks at both cycling related info and GPS navigation. It is not good for cycling because you have to charge it before every single ride and the display info is very small and hard to see while riding. For GPS it sucks because you just can't find anything on the map it takes forever to load and zoom in and out. The screen doesn't have touch screen and to write an address takes forever. You just need a ton of patience. To make cue sheets takes about 1.5 hours on bikeroutetoaster.com. I could go on and on.

I think that no GPS with all of these funcionalities and size would work well . You would need a 12" screen to really be able to use the maps and have a touch screen keyboard, but nobody would ride with such a thing on their handlebars. For me the most important thing is to make cue sheets and follow them on the unit with turn by turn directions. For it to be useful you need turn by turn directions, maps, mph, and total mileage on the same screen. Again for you to be able to see this the screen would have to be 12".

So I think the best is probably to get a good GPS for navigation and a separate unit like a Cateye for bike info. Then you could probably look into several different GPS systems like the Garmin Oregon. I just never used the Oregon and have not researched it enough.

[dcuper1]

+1 all of the above.

I used to be a pretty active glider pilot and used a Garmin aviation GPS with a nice display, database, datalogging for "record flights", etc. I was more than a little chagrined that the automotive version of my GPS (different database and slightly different functionality, but essentially the same box) cost about 20% of mine. Long story, but I'll bet you could get an automotive GPS for less than $100.

That said, I'm using a Garmin 305 (no map or database) and have become addicted to the elevation function. It has also replaced the cycling computers on six bikes (I have a mount on each bike), so its pretty cheap in comparison.

You should look closely at what elevation info you are getting. My experience has been that the altimeter/barometer on these things are very basic. If there is a change of weather while you are riding and you get a difference in atmospheric pressure, the elevation numbers go all over the place. I recently did the Harlem Valley Rail Ride Century and at about mile 75 clouds came in and it started to rain. The ride was a total of 8300ft of climbing. My unit as well as several other 705 and 305 units i checked on Garmin Connect only registered 6900 ft of climbing. On the other hand the newer and more advanced Garmin Oregon had 7900ft of climbing. The Garmin Oregon wasn't perfect, but it came close.

Make sure to double check your elevation numbers and you will see a ton of discrepancies on days with changing atmospheric pressure.

[dogdriver]

You should look closely at what elevation info you are getting. My experience has been that the altimeter/barometer on these things are very basic. If there is a change of weather while you are riding and you get a difference in atmospheric pressure, the elevation numbers go all over the place. I recently did the Harlem Valley Rail Ride Century and at about mile 75 clouds came in and it started to rain. The ride was a total of 8300ft of climbing. My unit as well as several other 705 and 305 units i checked on Garmin Connect only registered 6900 ft of climbing. On the other hand the newer and more advanced Garmin Oregon had 7900ft of climbing. The Garmin Oregon wasn't perfect, but it came close.

Make sure to double check your elevation numbers and you will see a ton of discrepancies on days with changing atmospheric pressure.

You could go through a lot of beer arguing this, but Garmin and other GPS-driven units generally don't use a barometric altimeter (I'll agree that a baro altimeter would give an erroneous total over a day in which the weather, and thus the barometric pressure, changes. Even this change, however, is generally not that big, since a HUGE baro shift due to a passing front is on the order of .3 inches, which translates to 300 feet (10 feet per .01 inches).)

Rather, GPS units use the information from the satellite signal (4 dimensions-- X,Y,Z, and time; or latitude, longitude, elevation, and time) to derive altitude. Any errors in cumulative elevation are probably due to the receiver unit and its software. The cumulative elevations on my "home rides" as shown on my 305 are always spot on.

Keep in mind that elevation as shown on a GPS unit will generally be different from what you figure from a map of the ride, since the GPS is "ratcheting" an elevation gain for every wiggle in the terrain, where the map, however detailed, will only show sustained elevation changes. As an example, the net elevation gain from my house to the top of one of the local rides is 2600 feet. A GPS taken on the same ride will show a very consistent 3150 feet, due to the slight descents and climbs en route.

I guess that another option is to leave the computer, ipod, and cell phone at home and just enjoy the ride.

FWIW, Chris

[jbrainin]

I have the 705 and I think it sucks at both cycling related info and GPS navigation. It is not good for cycling because you have to charge it before every single ride and the display info is very small and hard to see while riding. For GPS it sucks because you just can't find anything on the map it takes forever to load and zoom in and out. The screen doesn't have touch screen and to write an address takes forever. You just need a ton of patience. To make cue sheets takes about 1.5 hours on bikeroutetoaster.com. I could go on and on.

First, I've found that ridewithgps.com is easier to use than bikeroutetoaster.com

Sounds like you may have a faulty 705 as it should be good for at least 10-11 hours of use on a single charge. I've had no problem with battery life on my 705 and have done 145 mile rides with plenty of battery remaining.

Most of the rides I do are of preexisting routes so all that is needed is to upload the data for the ride and I can follow turn by turn directions without any real work.

Of course, since most of my riding is done in areas and on roads I know very well, I've been using an Edge 500 this year instead of the 705 as I can do the mapping stuff in my head. (The 705 was useful in June while riding in NM though.)

[dcuper1]

Keep in mind that elevation as shown on a GPS unit will generally be different from what you figure from a map of the ride, since the GPS is "ratcheting" an elevation gain for every wiggle in the terrain, where the map, however detailed, will only show sustained elevation changes. As an example, the net elevation gain from my house to the top of one of the local rides is 2600 feet. A GPS taken on the same ride will show a very consistent 3150 feet, due to the slight descents and climbs en route.


I am trying to understand what you are saying here. If there are two hills both 300ft in elevation. Both start and end at sea level. If you climb both of them shouldn't your elevation gain be 600ft? How would this elevation gain be different on a Topo Map and on a GPS ?

[dcuper1]

First, I've found that ridewithgps.com is easier to use than bikeroutetoaster.com


Will ridewithgps.com add waypoints at every turn? I ask you this because without the waypoints I get many errors like having to make U-Turns and such.

[jbrainin]

No waypoints, at least not that I can find, but I get many fewer errors than I did using bikeroutetoaster. And the cue sheets generated are easily edited.

[dogdriver]

I am trying to understand what you are saying here. If there are two hills both 300ft in elevation. Both start and end at sea level. If you climb both of them shouldn't your elevation gain be 600ft? How would this elevation gain be different on a Topo Map and on a GPS ?

Yes, as long as the hills show on the map. What I'm talking about are the little 2-10 foot whoop-de-doos on any mountain trail and the rollers on roads that will count as climbs on your GPS but not be shown on a map.

[fourflys]

The cumulative elevations on my "home rides" as shown on my 305 are always spot on.


But your 305 has a baro altimeter and only used GPS as a backup, from what I understand...

[dcuper1]

Yes, as long as the hills show on the map. What I'm talking about are the little 2-10 foot whoop-de-doos on any mountain trail and the rollers on roads that will count as climbs on your GPS but not be shown on a map.

I did the Harlem Valley Rail Ride. It was offically listed as 8,300 ft. According to your information I should have more than 8,300ft correct? I got 6,900ft on my GPS. Other 705 GPS on Garmin Connect website got similar results than me. A Garmin Oregon got 7,900 ft. How can that be?

You are a pilot. Well you know that instruments such as barometers and altimeters etc. that are precise, cost a lot of money. Here you have a very small item such as the 705, relatively cheap and do so much. How can that be?

[FMS_rider]

From what I have learned on this thread so far (thanks all) I am going to stick with my current method (maps) until, at the very least, screen visibility and scrolling speed are improved substantially.

Because I am so directionally impaired I have to print out maps before every ride in new areas that I clip to my bar with a "Cue Clip" (http://www.cueclip.com/) and refold as I ride. The maps I use are usually either scans or screendumps with lots of added lines and arrows --a major pain in the ass to prepare but better than constantly getting lost. When I get home I manually track my routes to keep records and get elevation data --another pain in the ass.

I often get lost for an hour or more --my record is ~4 hrs in a country where I don't speak the language, almost no one speaks English outside of cities, and virtually all the cab drivers use GPS units because route numbers are constantly changed, most smaller streets are unlabeled, and NONE of the myriad of dead ends have signs.

[fourflys]

From what I have learned on this thread so far (thanks all) I am going to stick with my current method (maps) until, at the very least, screen visibility and scrolling speed are improved substantially.

Because I am so directionally impaired I have to print out maps before every ride in new areas that I clip to my bar with a "Cue Clip" (http://www.cueclip.com/) and refold as I ride. The maps I use are usually either scans or screendumps with lots of added lines and arrows --a major pain in the ass to prepare but better than constantly getting lost. When I get home I manually track my routes to keep records and get elevation data --another pain in the ass.

I often get lost for an hour or more --my record is ~4 hrs in a country where I don't speak the language, almost no one speaks English outside of cities, and virtually all the cab drivers use GPS units because route numbers are constantly changed, most smaller streets are unlabeled, and NONE of the myriad of dead ends have signs.

are you sure you should be riding a bike? :D

[dcuper1]

From what I have learned on this thread so far (thanks all) I am going to stick with my current method (maps) until, at the very least, screen visibility and scrolling speed are improved substantially.

Because I am so directionally impaired I have to print out maps before every ride in new areas that I clip to my bar with a "Cue Clip" (http://www.cueclip.com/) and refold as I ride. The maps I use are usually either scans or screendumps with lots of added lines and arrows --a major pain in the ass to prepare but better than constantly getting lost. When I get home I manually track my routes to keep records and get elevation data --another pain in the ass.

I often get lost for an hour or more --my record is ~4 hrs in a country where I don't speak the language, almost no one speaks English outside of cities, and virtually all the cab drivers use GPS units because route numbers are constantly changed, most smaller streets are unlabeled, and NONE of the myriad of dead ends have signs.

One thing you could do is use a website like mapmyride.com or bikeroutetoaster.com to create cue sheets. They automatically give the elevation data. Then just print the cue sheet and add to your handlebars.

A GPS may help you, but you should definitely not rely on it completely. If you are riding alone, on a new and unfamiliar poorly marked route, where people don't speak english, you can't trust technology. If you bring a GPS fine but also bring your maps and printed cue sheets. Your GPS can fail very easily so don't rely only on it.

I was looking at the Garmin Oregon 550 and it seems like a great product. It does have drawbacks as you can read on the numerous reviews online. If you don't completely trust it and still have a backup with printed maps and cue sheets you should be fine.

[FMS_rider]

One thing you could do is use a website like mapmyride.com or bikeroutetoaster.com to create cue sheets. They automatically give the elevation data. Then just print the cue sheet and add to your handlebars.

A GPS may help you, but you should definitely not rely on it completely. If you are riding alone, on a new and unfamiliar poorly marked route, where people don't speak english, you can't trust technology. If you bring a GPS fine but also bring your maps and printed cue sheets. Your GPS can fail very easily so don't rely only on it.

I was looking at the Garmin Oregon 550 and it seems like a great product. It does have drawbacks as you can read on the numerous reviews online. If you don't completely trust it and still have a backup with printed maps and cue sheets you should be fine. I greatly appreciate your detailed attempt to help me out. Unfortunately, cue sheets are the bane of my existence. I almost always ride alone, lost in my thoughts or looking at the scenery, and with missed turns from that in combination with ganked road signs in rural areas, cue sheets are almost useless. I also don't like having to stick to pre-set routes.

Since I am already deep into this digression I might as well continue :crap:. My brain, and and those of a surprising number of others I have met, has such a defective internal compass that it is not unusual to be riding along and have my perception of the road do an instantaneous 180 degree switch (suddenly it is as if I am actually riding in the opposite direction). When that happens it is harder than you might imagine to think backwards to follow a cue sheet or a map even.

Anyhow, I do believe that a GPS unit that would trace my course in real time, and could be rapidly zoomed and scrolled would solve all of my problems, especially in foreign countries when I cannot print out maps, and have to cut and paste pieces of large commercial maps that are more often than not out of date or have insufficient scale to show the smaller bike-friendly roads.

I will give the Oregon 550 a hard look; hopefully I can find one in a store to play with.

Thanks again,
Lew