Thank You Lance!

[Lifelover]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

[blschaefer1]

Nicely said.

[tkbike]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

I agree, I wish him nothing but the best for what he has done for cycling and for cancer awareness.

[wc1934]

Amen

[false_Aest]

don't forget to thank him for the yellow bracelets.

[chuckroast]

I agree with most of this but don't get the custom builder reference?

[indyrider]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

So I'll reference this thread as an OSU football fan reaching out to a Mich knucklehead.....GO BLOW

[fourflys]

I agree with most of this but don't get the custom builder reference?

I thought that would get a response...

I see that aspect as Lance was a boon for cycling as a whole in this country and whenever the US goes headfirst into something, a LOT of us have to have the best or the rarest.... Custom bikes fit into to this line of thinking either in quality or just the fact it's "custom" makes it better in some's eyes regardless of the quality...

anyway, that's how I look at that tidbit...

[pbjbike]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

Your sentiments are appreciated, with you on the passion LA has engendered during his time racing professionally. Lance is part of the legacy of American cycling that will continue after 2010:

1) Coverage was decent on network when GL was in his prime.
2) Agreed! :beer:
3) MTB's were a fad that was bound to fade due to local zoning and lack of
equipment driven marketing: not due to LA. JMO. (He did win
Leadville this year...)
4) Not sure how LA figures into this, but I'm open to arguments. :)TK and
E-r can give good perspective on this point.
5) Indurain, Merckx...
6) 7-11, (est. 1980's) and Motorola, (est. early 1990's), set the stage
for Motorola part II, Discovery, etc.
Many paved the way for Lance, including: 1970's: Mike Neel and John
Howard; 1980's: Stetina, GL, Kiefel, Phinney, etal. LA would never have
made it into the peloton without these riders and their efforts.

[witcombusa]

Don't agree on the custom builder line, at all, in fact I don't see how he had any effect there.

or

the American sponsored teams either. They were there before him and will be there after.

Personally glad to see him go....should have left well enough alone the FIRST time he retired.

[indyrider]

Personally glad to see him go....should have left well enough alone the FIRST time he retired.

Yep, Jordan....

[fourflys]

Don't agree on the custom builder line, at all, in fact I don't see how he had any effect there.


So, you don't think Serotta or Seven or IF or ??? had a boom in sales after Lance won TDF #2? I bet if you go back and look at a sales graph, it would have an uptick from around 2000 on... I'm not saying custom builders would have faded away without Lance, but his 7 victories helped ALL bike sales IMHO...

[norcalbiker]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

I can honestly add one more.

"Thank you for inspiring my wife for getting her to ride bicycle who is battling with cancer.

[xjoex]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

YES!!!!!!! He is an inspiration to me on and off the bike.

-Joe

[azrider]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

+1

Thanks for being an inspiration to my aunt, cousin, girlfriends mother, and co-worker during their fight with cancer. Thanks for bringing my sport into the US limelight. Thank you for continuing to raise millions of dollars and awareness to cancer and cancer research. Thanks for being an inspiration to me to get my ass on the bike more.

[fourflys]

I can honestly add one more.

"Thank you for inspiring my wife for getting her to ride bicycle who is battling with cancer.


that's awesome and if that was the only thing he did (and we know LA did MUCH more), that would be enough...

To give one person with a disease like cancer a little bit of hope is worth pi$$ing off some others....

God Speed and Blessings to your wife, my friend

[SoCalSteve]

I can honestly add one more.

"Thank you for inspiring my wife for getting her to ride bicycle who is battling with cancer.

Post of the Day! (#1)

[SoCalSteve]

+1

Thanks for being an inspiration to my aunt, cousin, girlfriends mother, and co-worker during their fight with cancer. Thanks for bringing my sport into the US limelight. Thank you for continuing to raise millions of dollars and awareness to cancer and cancer research. Thanks for being an inspiration to me to get my ass on the bike more.

Post of the Day (# 2)

[Charles M]

Honestly I think lots of people in cycling, including me, owe a tip of the cap...

Cycling's many times larger that it was a deacade ago and that touches every aspect, from production builders through custom (though there are a few of each that have enough ego to think Lance had no effect on their business...).

It's such a hard on topic and so easy for haters to do their thing, but Cyclings at least larger and more recognized and cancer research has benefited in the millions...

[Jack Brunk]

My loving wife has now gone through not once but reoccurrence breast cancer and I've gone through my issues with thyroid cancer. If one dollar of donation towards the cure helps my wife, me and or the 28 million people with this ****ty disease then his cause was worth the price. If you've not be affected then good for you but I'm behind curing the disease. Give up the hard on.

[Dekonick]

OK

I'll give LA and Livestrong a nod for the benefit to humanity. Thanks!

I will not ever forget what Greg Lemond did for US cycling. FWIW - D. Phinney deserves more accolades than LA for what he has survived, and done for the cycling world.

Having said all of that...

LA has made the TDF something Americans now know about. LA has done more for cycling in the US than anyone before... but let us never forget those who paved the way...

:p

[Ray]

I agree with everything in the original post (even the custom builder part), admire his efforts on behalf of cancer, and STILL think he's a bit of an asshat. But I'm very glad the guy came around, even if being a jerk was part of the bargain.

I celebrate Lawrence Taylor, Ty Cobb, and Kobe Bryant too, but I wouldn't want one of my daughters to have dated any of THEM either. It's the whole black/white/gray thing again.

-Ray

[indyrider]

I celebrate Lawrence Taylor, Ty Cobb, and Kobe Bryant too, but I wouldn't want one of my daughters to have dated any of THEM either. It's the whole black/white/gray thing again.

-Ray

Yep, well that about wraps it up, well said.....

[victoryfactory]

The Eddy effect got me into cycling in the '70s
There were a lot of guys in Central Park on their Italian steel on Sundays,
but we didn't see many out on the roads.

The Greg effect in his TDF years made a further impact here in the USA
as many more hit the road, but we were still seen as weirdos riding around
in our underwear by the majority.

The Lance effect has taken it over the top, and now most "normals" have
been exposed to bike racing at least enough to realize that there are a lot
of us out there and like it or not, it has become very big and main stream.

BTW, the major increase in custom builders is directly related to Lance.
IMO
Like it or not, you guys wouldn't have 5 year wait lists if us old farts weren't
out there wanting the properly designed frames with geometries
that enable us to keep riding long past the age when most people used to hang
it up. Cycling as a sport and a business was greatly affected in every way
by the man in question. Deal with it

Thanks, Lance


VF

[rwsaunders]

I was watching the wrap of the TDF with my wife last night and she was giving me a bit of grief about LA's personal life. I told her that the unique thing about LA is that he is whoever you need him to be.

If you want to hate him, you can certainly find enough fodder in the tabloids and on the bike forums. If you want to love him, more of the same. If nothing else, for me, he helped rekindle my interest in the sport and helped raise my awareness of the devastation that cancer can cause. I'm not ashamed to say that I tipped my hat when I saw him on the podium for the last time during the team award.

[veloduffer]

I think cycling has greatly benefited from Lance. Sure there have been lots of folks that laid the foundation for cycling in the US. But his cancer-comeback story has elevated the awareness of cycling in the US many fold compared to what Greg Lemond and others did. Lance had a very significant best seller book that I'm sure many folks touched by cancer read. And all those yellow wristbands, another touchpoint for cycling. Unless you've lived in a cave, I'm sure that if you just said the name "Lance" to nearly anyone in the US, they would associate Armstrong with it.

From a more local perspective, I see many more cyclists than I did a decade ago. Our local bike clubs have since an increase in membership. There are more bike shops in NYC, particularly catering to enthusiasts, than ever before. In my home area of NJ, two bike shops have opened three new store locations and one is moving to a much larger location.

The most significant increase for cycling has been the rising number of women cyclists. We have a number of women participating in the fast club rides and all women groups now exist that do fast paced club rides. Years ago, it was quite rare to have women participating in other than C-paced rides unless they raced or were triathletes.

Obviously the big American bicycle companies (Trek, Specialized) have benefitted greatly, as they now have prominent European sales. But I think it has helped the custom builders too. It's a much smaller segment but there are many more folks and riders aware that there is such a thing as a custom made bike. Just look at how many new builders have come into the industry (eg Vanilla) over the last ten years and the increased popularity of the North Am Handbuild Bicycle Show.

I'm fairly certain this stems from Lance's TdF wins and accelerated by the the changes in media, notably the internet. Moreover, Lance has not disrespected his predecessors or claims he is better than they are. Remember he has longstanding friendship with the greatest cyclist ever, Eddy.

I don't think Lance wanted to loved by fans - he raced more to be respected (as an outlet for anger and being an outsider since his youth). In that regard, I think we owe him that much.

[SEABREEZE]

Yepp, there is enough being said on both sides of the fence.

Did anyone catch the interview with Landis the other night on nightline.

The fact is what Lance did for bringing bike racing to the forefront of the average american, Lets not forget it's still a fairly young sport by american standards, in comparising to other pro sports.

Landis gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and he wants to take others down with him, as well as this fairly young pro sport

Not good for pro bike racing in America.

[Vancouverdave]

And, isn't it less unpleasant to hear someone yelling "Hey, Lance" at you while you ride rather than "Hey motherf*&^er?" Lemond fan forever--but definite Lance appreciator. Every one of us who so much as touches a road bike for any reason owes him a thanks.

[William]

“….And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, sells bikes. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about on group rides, you want me on that bike, you need me on that bike. We use words like carbon, steel, and HandleBra. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent riding a bike. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a cyclist who rides and sleeps under the blanket of varied cycling freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and peddled on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a mountain bike, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think ……..”




...Though I can't confirm it's authenticity.

William ;) :)

[William]

Anyway,

Thanks lance! :beer: It's been real. :cool:





William

[mikki]

For my two cents:

Lance is the inspiriation that got me to learn to ride. Having skin cancer myself for many years and now working in the oncology side of massage therapy, LAF has been both inspirational and educational for both myself and those we work with. We give them a LAF binder that is stocked full of research and information and have had nothing but appreciative feedback.

Yes, he has characteristics and behaviors that anyone can pick on. Don't we all? I always marvel at those who see only negative about Lance. Jealousy? Just a negative personality? Even with those negatives, I thank him for being the character he is and an inspirational person to millions.

How many of us commenting on this forum have made such a positive impact on society?

Thanks Lance.

[norcalbiker]

that's awesome and if that was the only thing he did (and we know LA did MUCH more), that would be enough...

To give one person with a disease like cancer a little bit of hope is worth pi$$ing off some others....

God Speed and Blessings to your wife, my friend


Thank you!

[tuxbailey]

“….And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, sells bikes. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about on group rides, you want me on that bike, you need me on that bike. We use words like carbon, steel, and HandleBra. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent riding a bike. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a cyclist who rides and sleeps under the blanket of varied cycling freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and peddled on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a mountain bike, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think ……..”




...Though I can't confirm it's authenticity.

William ;) :)

That was awesome.

[Lifelover]

“….And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, sells bikes. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about on group rides, you want me on that bike, you need me on that bike. We use words like carbon, steel, and HandleBra. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent riding a bike. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a cyclist who rides and sleeps under the blanket of varied cycling freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and peddled on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a mountain bike, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think ……..”




...Though I can't confirm it's authenticity.

William ;) :)

LOL!

I have never seen this re-quote used more accurately.

[oldguy00]

Without you there would little to no cycling coverage.
Without you my last 11 July's would have been a bore.
Without you Mountain Bikes would still dominate all the LBSs'
Without you there would be almost no custom builders.
Without you I would have never seen someone completely dominate the tour.
Without you there would likely be no american sponsored teams racing in Europe.

It has been fun and I wish you well.

+9999
Completely agree.
And on the point about custom builders, again, I agree. Amazing how -some- of them **** all over him. Would love to see how their order books would look if he had never come back from cancer.
I also agree that Greg LeMond was great for cycling as well. Lance just took it to a whole new level.
:beer:

[PBWrench]

Just to echo Jack B., I am a cancer survivor, have drawn huge inspiration from Lance's story and have in turn raised about $35K for LAF. There are many sports megastars -- few have used their celebrity for the public good. I laud those who do, not for their personal lives and behavior, but for their willingness to turn the media fascination with celebrity in a positive direction. Thank you Lance.

[sg8357]

+9999
Completely agree.
And on the point about custom builders, again, I agree.
:beer:

I'd not say custom builders, more small companies, Serotta, Seven etc,
benefit from the LA effect. Serotta and the like had retail locations for the "What I buy after a LanceBike" market.

One man shops no, the interweb gave the one man shop visibility,
moved the market from local to nationwide.
Then Don Walker kicked it into low earth orbit with NAHBS.

[fiamme red]

I'd not say custom builders, more small companies, Serotta, Seven etc,
benefit from the LA effect. Serotta and the like had retail locations for the "What I buy after a LanceBike" market.When everyone else on the club ride is on a Trek OCLV, you have to distinguish yourself somehow. A Serotta or Seven makes you stand out. ;)

[victoryfactory]

Then Don Walker kicked it into low earth orbit with NAHBS.

All true, but if not for Lance, most of the customers of all those
great builders would be spending their money on skiing, jogging and
other sports stuff.
Lance's seven tour run inspired a whole movement in cycling in the USA.

VF

[67-59]

All true, but if not for Lance, most of the customers of all those
great builders would be spending their money on skiing, jogging and
other sports stuff.
Lance's seven tour run inspired a whole movement in cycling in the USA.

VF

Absolutely correct. The internet has helped, but the bicycle market in the US would be much smaller than it is today if Lance had not come along to stoke up the interest. I came to cycling after a running-related back injury in 2001. When I got hurt, I considered a bunch of alternate sports, and it was Lance's success and the resulting coverage on Versus (OLN back then) that really got me interested in bikes. I kinda doubt I'm the only one.

There will always be haters -- some people just have a need to hate. But Lance has done so much good for so many people that I give him a tip of my chapeau.... :beer:

[sg8357]

All true, but if not for Lance, most of the customers of all those
great builders would be spending their money on skiing, jogging and
other sports stuff.
Lance's seven tour run inspired a whole movement in cycling in the USA.

VF

One man shops make up a microscopic number in the bike sales universe, a few thousand bikes.
Do you think someone coming off a Lance CF wonderbike is really going to be
attracted to a bike that looks "old fashioned" ?
They're going to buy the shiny Serotta, not the RS or a Weigle that looks
completely alien to anything they have seen in the Tour.
The happy feedback loops on the interweb sell those.

[dave thompson]

It was 7 this morning, beautiful and about 68 degree outside and I'm on my bike for a ride. About halfway into my ride this thread starts rattling around my skull and I start thinking about how Lance has affected me. He drug me, kicking and screaming, into cycling, bicycle racing, Grand Tours and most things two-wheeled and he doesn't even know it.

When he was on top of his game, I could not complain about my age, afflictions, sore muscles, the heat or anything else because he, through sheer will-power and perseverance, overcame obstacles far greater than I most likely will ever encounter to rise to the pinnacle of his sport. And I'm sure that he became a beacon of hope for millions because he overcame. He inspired me.

Haters, most of whom IMO are pinheads, can, like Andrew Breitbart famously with his Sherrod blog, take snippets of things said and done and weave them into their version of whole cloth. They try to shout their skewed views over the top of us, I think because they are afraid that the chorus of "shut up" will drown them out.

So, I finished my ride tired because I pushed hard. Grabbed a cold chocolate milk and sat down to write this. Then a shower. Life is good.

Thanks for another day Lance.

[67-59]

One man shops make up a microscopic number in the bike sales universe, a few thousand bikes.
Do you think someone coming off a Lance CF wonderbike is really going to be
attracted to a bike that looks "old fashioned" ?
They're going to buy the shiny Serotta, not the RS or a Weigle that looks
completely alien to anything they have seen in the Tour.The happy feedback loops on the interweb sell those.

I am a rider who was totally influenced into cycling by Lance (see post above). The bike I bought was a hand-built, lugged steel Kirk Terraplane.

Just sayin'....

[rphetteplace]

My loving wife has now gone through not once but reoccurrence breast cancer and I've gone through my issues with thyroid cancer. If one dollar of donation towards the cure helps my wife, me and or the 28 million people with this ****ty disease then his cause was worth the price. If you've not be affected then good for you but I'm behind curing the disease. Give up the hard on.

nails it.

Best of luck on your and your wifes health Jack.

Ryan

[Jack Brunk]

Thanks Ryan.

[Acotts]

One man shops make up a microscopic number in the bike sales universe, a few thousand bikes.
Do you think someone coming off a Lance CF wonderbike is really going to be
attracted to a bike that looks "old fashioned" ?
They're going to buy the shiny Serotta, not the RS or a Weigle that looks
completely alien to anything they have seen in the Tour.
The happy feedback loops on the interweb sell those.

I started riding because of Lance. He put the idea in my head.

10 years later, i am sporting a Sachs.

I'm probably not the only one. People can actually be both a fan of Armstrong and a free thinking consumer. The two are not exclusive.

AC

[rnhood]

Lance has done a great deal for cycling, and a great deal for cancer research. Yea, he's over the hill but he doesn't retreat to a life of seclusion and luxury. He gets out there, and win or lose he battles on. A true champion and tremendously inspirational.

[victoryfactory]

I started riding because of Lance. He put the idea in my head.

10 years later, i am sporting a Sachs.

I'm probably not the only one. People can actually be both a fan of Armstrong and a free thinking consumer. The two are not exclusive.

AC

I wonder what Mr Sachs waiting list
was like in 1995 vs 2005?

[norcalbiker]

My loving wife has now gone through not once but reoccurrence breast cancer and I've gone through my issues with thyroid cancer. If one dollar of donation towards the cure helps my wife, me and or the 28 million people with this ****ty disease then his cause was worth the price. If you've not be affected then good for you but I'm behind curing the disease. Give up the hard on.

Good luck with you and your wife. PM me if you need to chat.

[CaptStash]

My loving wife has now gone through not once but reoccurrence breast cancer and I've gone through my issues with thyroid cancer. If one dollar of donation towards the cure helps my wife, me and or the 28 million people with this ****ty disease then his cause was worth the price. If you've not be affected then good for you but I'm behind curing the disease. Give up the hard on.

Yes. What he said.

CaptStash....

[oldguy00]

I wonder what Mr Sachs waiting list
was like in 1995 vs 2005?

My thoughts exactly..

[oldpotatoe]

Your sentiments are appreciated, with you on the passion LA has engendered during his time racing professionally. Lance is part of the legacy of American cycling that will continue after 2010:

1) Coverage was decent on network when GL was in his prime.
2) Agreed! :beer:
3) MTB's were a fad that was bound to fade due to local zoning and lack of
equipment driven marketing: not due to LA. JMO. (He did win
Leadville this year...)
4) Not sure how LA figures into this, but I'm open to arguments. :)TK and
E-r can give good perspective on this point.
5) Indurain, Merckx...
6) 7-11, (est. 1980's) and Motorola, (est. early 1990's), set the stage
for Motorola part II, Discovery, etc.
Many paved the way for Lance, including: 1970's: Mike Neel and John
Howard; 1980's: Stetina, GL, Kiefel, Phinney, etal. LA would never have
made it into the peloton without these riders and their efforts.

Good response. I started a shop that sold and serviced only road bikes well before anybody knew who Lance was. It was very successful and still is.

Eddy is the man and always will be. Best rider period, not just beat TdF rider.

[fiamme red]

I wonder what Mr Sachs waiting list
was like in 1995 vs 2005?That has much more to do with something called the "Internet" than with LANCE.

[William]

That has much more to do with something called the "Internet" than with LANCE.


More like the "InterLance".




William

[Acotts]

That has much more to do with something called the "Internet" than with LANCE.

Disagree. I think the Lance effect and the internet effect created a real positive feed back mechanism. Lance made people want to learn about bikes. The interent allowed them to do it. The nerds eventually found RS.

Lance added thousands of nerds to the sport.

Just like Jordan in the 90's. The sport needed a star to elevate it to the masses. He was the right dude at the right time.

[William]

Disagree. I think the Lance effect and the internet effect created a real positive feed back mechanism. Lance made people want to learn about bikes. The interent allowed them to do it. The nerds eventually found RS.

Lance added thousands of nerds to the sport.

Just like Jordan in the 90's. The sport needed a star to elevate it to the masses. He was the right dude at the right time.



....hence, the InterLance. :)






William

[fiamme red]

Disagree. I think the Lance effect and the internet effect created a real positive feed back mechanism. Lance made people want to learn about bikes. The interent allowed them to do it. The nerds eventually found RS.

Lance added thousands of nerds to the sport.

Just like Jordan in the 90's. The sport needed a star to elevate it to the masses. He was the right dude at the right time.I'm not denying that there may be some (like yourself) who were inspired to start riding by LANCE and ended up getting a Sachs. I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to attribute the growth in Sachs' waiting list in the years 1995-2005 to the LANCE effect. His waiting list is mainly due to his becoming "e-RICHIE."

A website, and chatter in online forums, are much more effective for marketing than print ads in the back of VeloNews.

[victoryfactory]

Disagree. I think the Lance effect and the internet effect created a real positive feed back mechanism. Lance made people want to learn about bikes. The interent allowed them to do it. The nerds eventually found RS.

Lance added thousands of nerds to the sport.

Just like Jordan in the 90's. The sport needed a star to elevate it to the masses. He was the right dude at the right time.

I agree with your disagreement
The fantastic growth of custom/boutique bikes is partly the result
of many more people riding. It's probably a similar percentage of "nerds"
(I would call them enthusiasts, maybe) that eventually decide they need
a hand made bike, but due to the groundswell in riding, that number is higher
than ever. Bigger pond, more fish

This is not to say that some of the builders don't do a better job of
marketing and advertising and building a great product as well.
As with any industry, there are some who "get it" atmo*

VF

* used without permission, sue me.

[Acotts]

....hence, the InterLance. :)






William

We replyed at the same time. You were more succinct.

[William]

We replyed at the same time. You were more succinct.

:beer: Great minds think alike.....well, yours is great, mine surges and stalls. :crap:





William :)

[sg8357]

Disagree. I think the Lance effect and the internet effect created a real positive feed back mechanism.

OK, we have now gone around in a circle to my point, we who entered
cycling pre-lance, found out about the world of non-sport cycling and
frame builders from the internet. There were waiting lists and carbon
bashing before LA. Lycra was a bad word before LA. Bruce Gordon
was mean to me, before LA :).

Before Alex Wetmore we lived in darkness, with only an occasional
La Gazzetta dello Sport for sustenance.

None of the above applies to Serotta/Seven etc, they benefited
greatly from BikeBoom IV brought on by LA.

[fiamme red]

Before Alex Wetmore we lived in darkness, with only an occasional La Gazzetta dello Sport for sustenance.That's funny and true.

I first became interested in road bikes after reading Eugene Sloane's Complete Book of Bicycling. The first high-end bike I coveted was a Schwinn Paramount.

[Lifelover]

Again.

Thank You Lance

[Charles M]

I started riding because of Lance. He put the idea in my head.

10 years later, i am sporting a Sachs.

I'm probably not the only one. People can actually be both a fan of Armstrong and a free thinking consumer. The two are not exclusive.

AC

Yeah but there's so much anti passion that your common sense just bugs folks.


Of course there are folks that had bikes before Lance and those that have started cycling since he's been around that didn't start because of him...

But it takes a special kind of arrogance and ignorance (both) to think for a second that the guy's had no impact what so ever on pretty much any part of cycling... Including custom builders.


Is it the only reason some folks sell product? Hell no! But it's ridiculous to think Lance has had no effect, especially in mid high end road equipment.



As for Lances draw and insiration to folks with Cancer, I am 100% sure that he's helped people in my life deal with things... I would love to see some of the haters round here in an arguement with one of my friends and his daughter (14), who are on the rabbid / blind side of the Lance wagon. But then I don't think even the worst of the anti Lance crowd here is really "that" kind of person. The bottom of the barrel around here are still pretty dang good people really.

But it's the internet... We tend to act like people we wouldn't really want to be face to face.

[pbjbike]

Yeah but there's so much anti passion that your common sense just bugs folks.


Of course there are folks that had bikes before Lance and those that have started cycling since he's been around that didn't start because of him...

But it takes a special kind of arrogance and ignorance (both) to think for a second that the guy's had no impact what so ever on pretty much any part of cycling... Including custom builders.


Is it the only reason some folks sell product? Hell no! But it's ridiculous to think Lance has had no effect, especially in mid high end road equipment.



As for Lances draw and insiration to folks with Cancer, I am 100% sure that he's helped people in my life deal with things... I would love to see some of the haters round here in an arguement with one of my friends and his daughter (14), who are on the rabbid / blind side of the Lance wagon. But then I don't think even the worst of the anti Lance crowd here is really "that" kind of person. The bottom of the barrel around here are still pretty dang good people really.

But it's the internet... We tend to act like people we wouldn't really want to be face to face.

Now, that's what you do best--perspective, and eloquence. :beer:

[William]

Snipped from a much earlier thread.....


"It was perhaps inevitable that my first assignment of 1998 was a visit to Lance Armstrong in Santa Barbara, California. He was spending a relaxing few weeks there, prior to attending training camp with his new team, sponsored by the US. postal Service. In doing four hour training rides and early-morning weight exercises (eh Roy ) in a local gym, Lance showed himself to be a completely new, revitalized man, totally focused on his hoped-for comeback to the top level of the sport. I noticed too, how much thinner he was - apparently a natural reaction to the cancer therapy he'd undergone in late-1996.

I'd made the trip to California out of choice, sensing this man's determination to prove to the world that he could be as good as before, if not better. And Lance was totally accommodating of my requests for photographs - be it riding a bike, training at the gym, walking on the beach with Kristin, or drinking wine with some local friends. Everything I asked for was granted, and the resulting pictures were sold in magazines throughout the world, sporting and otherwise.
Lance's comeback went on hold, however, when he withdrew from Paris-Nice at the end of the first road stage. Some journalists, desperate for some interesting news during a somewhat ordinary Paris-Nice, declared: "Armstrong's career is over." I thought otherwise, benefitting from that trip to California that had allowed me such a close-up understanding of Lance's mental state. And I was right: barely three months had passed before he was back in Europe and winning, in the Tour of Luxembourg. After hearing that Lance had won the first stage of this quite difficult four-day race in the Ardennes, I cut short my regular seven-day-long devotion to a particularly boring Dauphine Libere to head north 300 miles overnight. So I got to see Lance break the defense of challenger Lauri Aus, and begin the comeback that seemed like a creation of Hollywood, if not some place higher and holier.
In between the Tour of Luxembourg and the absolute confirmation of Armstrong's comeback--the 1998 Vuelta-- the sport of cycling faced one of its darkest moments: the police arrests of the Festina team during the Tour de France, and the ensuing period in which cycling came under the cruel spotlight of media and legal persecution. I was personally hurt by the "revelations" attached to the criminal investigations, having never quite realized that a sport so beautiful and exciting could also be a sport so corrupt and tarnished.
I remember one night during the 1998 Tour when we had just encountered the riders strike of stage 17 to Aix-les-Bains. Confused, depressed, and not knowing if the next days stage would even begin, we pondered the ritualistic idea of continuing our Tour de France to Paris no matter what, staying in hotels long-since booked, in order to alleviate the harsh reality that perhaps the sport of cycling was about to become extinct. It only partially helped that the start-stop '98 Tour was a stunner, with Marco Pantani delivering a fatal blow to Jan Ullrich's defense of his '97 Tour win, after a searing attack on the Col du Galibier in atrocious conditions. For Pantani's win seemed almost to good to be true: Suddenly, the little climber had become a time trialist as well, taking third-place in the next to last day's time-test at Le Creusot, just behind Julich - who continued racing in the best form of his life to secure third-place overall.
Ironically, Julich's success helped motivate Armstrong even more, and the Texan became the savior of the season - if not of cycling itself - by blitzing the end of the year with consecutive fourth places in the Vuelta, the world time trial championship and the world road championship. In contrast to my experience at the Tour de France, I had thoroughly enjoyed the Vuelta - enjoyed seeing Lance better than his old best, faster than his old self, and now climbing with the likes of Jose Maria, Jimenez and Fernando Escartin on Spain's most difficult mountain passes.
But just when it seemed that the sport was getting itself back on it's feet in the spring of 1999, two incidents threatened to send our little world crashing down once again. First, a group of cyclists, some professionals, were arrested by French police in connection with drug trafficking, together with two accomplices, a lawyer and a pharmacist. One of the arrested was 23-year-old Frank Vandenbroucke , the star of the future it had seemed, following his storming win in the Liege-Bastogne-Liege race a few weeks earlier, preceded by his win at Paris-Nice. The world of cycling held its breath once again, and I was happy to take off on another Lance Armstrong mission: and all-day training ride in the Pyrenees, where Lance was planning on riding every centimeter of the 173km, 15th stage of that year's Tour.
As I sat down to dinner with Lance and his wife Kristin - as well as his mini-team of soigneur, mechanic and directeur sportif - I appreciated this diversion from the sport's latest problems, and I began to realize how serious Lance was about the Tour. I enjoyed listening to the Texan's plans on how he was going to win the event, and by the time we'd reached Piau-Engaly, after nearly seven hours of enduring constant rain and cold, I had no doubts at all - Lance would win. My cameras were nearly ruined by the rain, I was soaked through to the skin, Gore-Tex or no Gore-Tex, and my motorbike driver was shivering down to the bone. But this cold, miserable day had also been a day so inspiring and motivating that I'd barely felt the cold at all. And when I cheerfully left Lance and his team in a deserted parking lot amid this ski station's cluster of concrete buildings, I knew that the images I'd captured of him climbing and descending seven cols, would complement the images of him later that July, on these very same roads. My only regret was not being able to do a repeat the next day, on Lance's second sortie over the Col du Tourmalet and Col d' Aubisque climbs. But the Tour de Romandie beckoned me to Switzerland, followed by the Giro d'Italia that started on the Island of Sicily - a much warmer prospect!
Sadly, that Giro ended in even worse circumstances than the previous year's Tour, following the exclusion of race leader Marco Pantani two days before the end. By this point, Pantani had the Giro won, had taken the four hardest stages of the race, and would most certainly saved his best for the last - an epic stage over the passes of the Tonale, Gavia, Mortirolo and Santa Christina. Instead, after testing above the 50-percent hematocrit limit that morning, Pantani locked himself into his team's hotel in Madonna di Campiglio, while the rest of the peloton raced this awesome stage in an atmosphere of complete and utter anticlimax. It would be months - if ever - before the truth would be revealed, but I knew then, as did most of my colleagues, that if Pantani had cheated at the 1999 Giro, then his race-saving victory in the '98 Tour was also in question.
I was happy to yet again leave the mourning to others, and left the next day for the Dauphine Libere. Here, Armstrong was building up to the Tour by racing in the service of his teammate Jonathan Vaughters, who had won the Mont Ventoux time trial and was hoping to win the race overall, just a few weeks before the Tour began.
The 1999 Tour delivered everything I could have possibly asked for: great weather, inspired racing, a degree of drama, and the triumph of Mr. Lance Armstrong, who won his Tour as planned. From the moment he won the Prologue in Le Puy du Fou. I felt he had the race within his grasp. And knew for sure a week later, after he'd trounced his rivals in the time trial around Metz. The Alps came and went - all too quickly as far as I was concerned - and then came the Pyrenees and that same stage Armstrong had ridden a few months earlier, to Piau-Engaly. Only now it was sunny and hot.
We'd begun our Tour, a group of roughly a dozen journalists, photographers and drivers, with the agreement that whenever a Brit, American or Australian won a stage or took the yellow jersey, a bottle of Champagne had to be opened to honor them. Fortunately, this tradition was abandoned after just the prologue and the Metz test; for Lance's success meant double workloads for everyone, and would have created enormous hangovers for the last ten days, not to mention empty bank accounts. Nonetheless, it was a Tour I will never forget, for I felt as if I were watching a friend win, and that doesn't happen too often on one's lifetime. His repeat victory in 2000 was just as exciting and even more impressive.




William

[fiamme red]

LANCE's public persona has certainly changed a lot over the years, for the better, as he's matured (especially since his return from cancer). He used to be a very angry and unpleasant young man. From Joe Friel's blog:

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/07/end-of-an-era.html

I also met Lance once – or at least tried to. I was at the World Duathlon Championship in Texas back in the early ‘90s. I forget the exact year but it was about October as his race season was over, I recall. I had already raced that day and was watching the pro race out on the course well away from the crowd at the finish. I looked around and saw Lance standing there also watching. He wasn’t well known then but I had been aware of him since the late ‘80s when, as a teenager, he was beating many of the top triathlon pros. But by this time he had switched over to bike racing. My son, Dirk, who was also racing as a cycling pro in Europe at that time, had done a couple of races with Lance. Americans weren’t too common on the European bike racing scene back then and I knew he had met Dirk. So I walked over to Lance during a lull in the race, held out my hand and introduced myself with a quick comment about him perhaps knowing Dirk. He was standing with his arms crossed. He looked at me, didn’t say a word, arms stayed crossed and he went back to staring at the course.

[michael white]

I like this thread.

Here's a piece in Forbes which discusses Lance's main problem, which is that he happened to come along at the zenith of doping:

http://blogs.forbes.com/digitalrules/2010/07/lance-armstrongs-tragedy/

I see Lance as a very human (and flawed) persona who probably did what he had to do to win, especially when he was younger, as most of us would do. I am not inclined to judge him for this.

The comparison to Jordan is apt: Lance is the superstar who transformed the sport, for better or worse. Unlike Jordan, however, and unlike any other superstar I can think of, Lance made a decision to author a truly meaningful life. I took a long time to warm up to Lance, and this is the reason I have finally done it.

His contributions to cancer research are such that, unless you have been truly touched by this disease, you probably don't get him.

Chapeau, le Texan.

[veloduffer]

LANCE's public persona has certainly changed a lot over the years, for the better, as he's matured (especially since his return from cancer). He used to be a very angry and unpleasant young man.

That's true of a lot of athletes as they mature. Remember Jimmy Connors - he was a real brat (before McEnroe) or enfant terrible in his younger days. The public disliked him and he intimidated his competition. There's a famous scene at the Italian Open when his opponent claimed Connors' shot was out and asked the judge to look at the mark on the clay court. Connors ran around the net and wiped out the mark with his foot.

He did not become a darling of the fans until he was in his thirties and started playing to the crowd.

I think this trend stems from being young and feeling invincible (and hence arrogant) and changing when one realizes that their career is finite and their body is vulnerable, and become more appreciative of what they have. Just human nature....

[Ray]

I actually liked him more when he was young and brash, before he'd left such a public trail of people he'd treated like *****. He's done a lot of good, for the sport for sure and probably on the cancer front too - I'm not a lover or a hater - I try to see the balance of good and bad. Bit I sure don't find him to be MORE likable now than 10+ years ago. Just MHO of course.

-Ray

[Charles M]

$31,147,929 .... directly to programs and services for Cancer survivors


In 2009 alone.




At what point will you drop the "Probably"?





.

[JMerring]

No question he's done a ton of good for the cancer cause. No question either that he has greatly increased the visibility of cycling in the USA. But my enthusiasm for him that existed until his first retirement has been replaced by a certain cynicism and I can't help but think that his motivation vis-a-vis Livestrong has been partially (perhaps greatly) self-serving as well. We will never know how much of it is a function of his desire to do good vs. how much of it is the product of a savvy PR machine looking to increase the value of his brand. Of this much, however, we can be sure: he is and has been very dedicated to the cause, and his dedication has greatly increased the value of his brand.

[SoCalSteve]

No question he's done a ton of good for the cancer cause. No question either that he has greatly increased the visibility of cycling in the USA. But my enthusiasm for him that existed until his first retirement has been replaced by a certain cynicism and I can't help but think that his motivation vis-a-vis Livestrong has been partially (perhaps greatly) self-serving as well. We will never know how much of it is a function of his desire to do good vs. how much of it is the product of a savvy PR machine looking to increase the value of his brand. Of this much, however, we can be sure: he is and has been very dedicated to the cause, and his dedication has greatly increased the value of his brand.

In the end, if he helps one person survive cancer (or even just "gives inspiration" to one person) NONE of the other stuff matters.

Geez, he could be (and maybe is) the biggest megalomaniac that ever walked the face of the earth...But, again..in the end...that doesn't matter.

I have worked in the movie business for over 30 years and have seen some AMAZING ego's. Truly, truly amazing egos. But, I cannot think of one single person who has come even close to doing what LA has done in the name of cancer and cancer research...

None of the other stuff matters.

[JMerring]

In the end, if he helps one person survive cancer (or even just "gives inspiration" to one person) NONE of the other stuff matters.

Geez, he could be (and maybe is) the biggest megalomaniac that ever walked the face of the earth...But, again..in the end...that doesn't matter.

I have worked in the movie business for over 30 years and have seen some AMAZING ego's. Truly, truly amazing egos. But, I cannot think of one single person who has come even close to doing what LA has done in the name of cancer and cancer research...

None of the other stuff matters.

To the person who has survived or been inspired, yes, none of the other stuff matters. But your argument is a slippery slope to justifying bad in the name of good. Admittedly, doping in cycling and/or being an arrogant prick aren't bad things at all in the grand scheme of things. He will continue to be an inspiration and hero to many and I hope nothing happens to him in the future to change that. I, for one, am just glad he's finished riding his bike professionally.

[witcombusa]

In the end, if he helps one person survive cancer (or even just "gives inspiration" to one person) NONE of the other stuff matters.

Geez, he could be (and maybe is) the biggest megalomaniac that ever walked the face of the earth...But, again..in the end...that doesn't matter.

I have worked in the movie business for over 30 years and have seen some AMAZING ego's. Truly, truly amazing egos. But, I cannot think of one single person who has come even close to doing what LA has done in the name of cancer and cancer research...

None of the other stuff matters.


Can't agree with you on this at all......

[gemship]

I'm not a fan of LA but I do admire his talent and I would love to live a day in the life. Needless to say I wouldn't criticize him, it just doesn't sit well with me to bash him.

I certainly respect his efforts to better mankind off the bike, he's doing more than I would ever expect from a individual that made to the big time of anything.

You know what? I think LA is on to something bigger, I think he may even have a shot at politics if he so choosed, with or without the votes of many a Lance hater.

[Mr. Squirrel]

this thread is nut.

mr. squirrel

[67-59]

In the end, if he helps one person survive cancer (or even just "gives inspiration" to one person) NONE of the other stuff matters.

Geez, he could be (and maybe is) the biggest megalomaniac that ever walked the face of the earth...But, again..in the end...that doesn't matter.

I have worked in the movie business for over 30 years and have seen some AMAZING ego's. Truly, truly amazing egos. But, I cannot think of one single person who has come even close to doing what LA has done in the name of cancer and cancer research...

None of the other stuff matters.

+10000000000

If the "bad" of Lance was something illegal or unethical, or otherwise truly harmed others, I would disagree. But the "bad" side of Lance simply seems to be that he has a huge ego and wants to continue to build the Lance brand. If you balance that "bad" against the huge mountain of good he has done, it's no contest.

[peanutgallery]

Only time will tell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Novitzky

[JMerring]

+10000000000

If the "bad" of Lance was something illegal or unethical, or otherwise truly harmed others, I would disagree. But the "bad" side of Lance simply seems to be that he has a huge ego and wants to continue to build the Lance brand. If you balance that "bad" against the huge mountain of good he has done, it's no contest.

um, the 'bad' of lance may or may not have been technically illegal under us law, but it was certainly unethical. of course, he was far from the only one, but it was unethical nonetheless. and as for harming others, there may have been clean pros out there who could have beaten him but for his enhancements. i completely disagree that lance's 'badness' extends to no more than his ego and business savvy. if tiger woods was exactly who he is with the added twist of having survived cancer and using his fame to advance the cause, would we view him differently? i suspect we would, but that wouldn't make his transgressions any more excusable.

[67-59]

um, the 'bad' of lance may or may not have been technically illegal under us law, but it was certainly unethical. of course, he was far from the only one, but it was unethical nonetheless. and as for harming others, there may have been clean pros out there who could have beaten him but for his enhancements. i completely disagree that lance's 'badness' extends to no more than his ego and business savvy. if tiger woods was exactly who he is with the added twist of having survived cancer and using his fame to advance the cause, would we view him differently? i suspect we would, but that wouldn't make his transgressions any more excusable.

Do you work for the French press? Seems like you have the same standards of "evidence." A zillion negative tests, a bunch of wins, and the folks who didn't win (or who cheated themselves) are making allegations with no evidence. Oh, well, of course he must have cheated. :rolleyes:

[michael white]

Do you work for the French press? Seems like you have the same standards of "evidence." A zillion negative tests, a bunch of wins, and the folks who didn't win (or who cheated themselves) are making allegations with no evidence. Oh, well, of course he must have cheated. :rolleyes:

Yeah, the sort of assumptions I read really irk me; they offend my sense of American ethics and legal standard. Sure, it's a dirty business; sure, Armstrong may or may not appear to be as dirty as his chief competitors.

But when assumptions are spoken in public as fact, what is lost is our tacit American notion of justice. We all, at some time or other, might appear to others to be guilty of something. If you've ever been wrongly maligned in public, then you know how infuriating and unforgivable this can be.

[JMerring]

sorry; this time, in the spirit of american justice:

um, the 'bad' of lance may or may not have been technically illegal under us law, but it was MOST LIKELY unethical. of course, he was far from the only one, but it was MOST LIKELY unethical nonetheless. and as for harming others, there may have been clean pros out there who could have beaten him but for his ALLEGED enhancements. i completely disagree that lance's 'badness' extends to no more than his ego and business savvy. if tiger woods was exactly who he ALLEGEDLY is with the added twist of having survived cancer and using his fame to advance the cause, would we view him differently? i suspect we would, but that wouldn't make his ALLEGED transgressions any more excusable.

[pbjbike]

sorry; this time, in the spirit of american justice:

um, the 'bad' of lance may or may not have been technically illegal under us law, but it was MOST LIKELY unethical. of course, he was far from the only one, but it was MOST LIKELY unethical nonetheless. and as for harming others, there may have been clean pros out there who could have beaten him but for his ALLEGED enhancements. i completely disagree that lance's 'badness' extends to no more than his ego and business savvy. if tiger woods was exactly who he ALLEGEDLY is with the added twist of having survived cancer and using his fame to advance the cause, would we view him differently? i suspect we would, but that wouldn't make his ALLEGED transgressions any more excusable.

Well said. Thank You.

[Jack Brunk]

Are you guys really serious?

Never mind.

[Ray]

Yeah, the sort of assumptions I read really irk me; they offend my sense of American ethics and legal standard.
The American legal standard has nothing to do with social discourse and speculation - it has to do with what it takes to lock someone up. Last I checked, Lance was still walking around a free man, no. As for speculation about those not PROVEN guilty in a court of law, I guess we should all just fully accept that OJ did nothing wrong? There's the presumption of innocence and there's free speech and they don't always or often come out in the same place.

-Ray

[Elefantino]

He may have doped.

He may not have doped.

...

...

...

When's the ride start?

[Lifelover]

um, the 'bad' of lance may or may not have been technically illegal under us law, but it was certainly unethical. of course, he was far from the only one, but it was unethical nonetheless. and as for harming others, there may have been clean pros out there who could have beaten him but for his enhancements. i completely disagree that lance's 'badness' extends to no more than his ego and business savvy. if tiger woods was exactly who he is with the added twist of having survived cancer and using his fame to advance the cause, would we view him differently? i suspect we would, but that wouldn't make his transgressions any more excusable.

Tiger is a good example. What right do you or I have in deciding if his transgressions are excusable. He did nothing to you or I (assuming he didn't screw you daughter).

I don't understand the folks that hate on Lance or any other "Cheater".
Life is not fair, you will never be as good as them with or without the drugs.

Focus on your on life.

[michael white]

The American legal standard has nothing to do with social discourse and speculation - it has to do with what it takes to lock someone up. Last I checked, Lance was still walking around a free man, no. As for speculation about those not PROVEN guilty in a court of law, I guess we should all just fully accept that OJ did nothing wrong? There's the presumption of innocence and there's free speech and they don't always or often come out in the same place.

-Ray

Luckily, OJ did get a little justice in civil court. In my opinion not enough. Lance has not yet had his day in court, and is only one of many cyclists named in a case instigated by a thoroughly disreputable character, a case which has yet to prove any legal merit, yet out of all that potential garbage here are a bunch of experts on the internet not only confident of guilt but gleeful about it. Ray, you want to have reasonable discourse? have it. Begin.

thanks.

mw

[michael white]

Look. This thread is entitled Thank You Lance! So how did it degenerate so far into a comparison between Lance and OJ? I'm really curious.

Next up: Thank You Barack Obama/Ted Bungy.

[Ray]

It's not a comparison between Lance and OJ - OJ was just used to illustrate a point about the difference between presumption of innocence in a court of law and in public opinion. My version of "reasonable discourse" is to repeat what I've said several times already - he's not all hero or all villain - he's plenty of both IN MY OPINION. He's a very complex character who has done a lot of good and a lot of sleazy things (I'm not even talking about doping here - I believe he did but I don't see a lot of sleaze there - I really don't give a rats ass about that).

I get sick of the arguments from Lance lovers saying that because he's done some good on the cancer front that none of his sins exist and the Lance haters saying that because of the sins he's committed, all of his positive acts on the cancer and cycling fronts should be discounted. Does everyone take this black and white a view? Of course not. But many seem to and THAT'S all I tend to object to.

If that's not reasonable enough for you, sorry - that's all I got.

-Ray

[JMerring]

Tiger is a good example. What right do you or I have in deciding if his transgressions are excusable. He did nothing to you or I (assuming he didn't screw you daughter).

I don't understand the folks that hate on Lance or any other "Cheater".
Life is not fair, you will never be as good as them with or without the drugs.

Focus on your on life.

i'm completely focused on my life. i look forward to tiger's return to dominance and will root for him same way i did before it all happened - next to hogan and nicklaus he is, after all, the greatest to ever ply his particular craft. the only difference between the before and after, is that before i thought he came as close to anyone ever has or could to being 'perfect'; now i know that's not the case. he is still a role model (in some respects) to which we all can aspire, and i'll still use him, though not all of him, as an example to which my kids can aspire. i don't judge him even remotely for what he allegedly did - that's solely the province of his wife, kids and mom.

same with lance. don't hate him or love him but, contrary to how i felt about him 5 or so years ago, i think he is a fraud. that doesn't diminish what he has done off the bike (or excuse the kind of person he is off the bike and when not acting in the interest of his 'cause') but rather simply acknowledges the different facets of his personality.

[michael white]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-clothier/king-killers-the-art-of-p_b_659773.html

the link above is for an article about Lance, Obama, and a trait in humanity which I personally find unattractive, the "king-killers."

For instance, some athletes or other successful competitors, whether due to success, leadership, sheer talent or willpower, whatever--some public figures become targets of this irrational hatred and are no longer treated as worthy of the same respect accorded to any other human being. A statement such as Lance Armstrong is a fraud, for instance, in context of what is a celebratory thread entitled Thank You Lance Armstrong! Interesting, and more than a little rude. Is any other pro cyclist of the past decade singled out in thread after thread in this way? No, obviously not, and it isn't really about doping, because we're all well aware by now that doping is (or was) rampant. There's a difference here--ordinarily polite, humane people feel free to vent open, public hatred and vitriol in these very special cases. That's the behavior I'm questioning here, because I think it's a type of weakness that fully deserves to be called out.

[firerescuefin]

Liberals have been "King Killers"/"Character Assasins" for years, yet I don't think that's what they called it. I find the authors take amusing.

Lance certainly is a polarizing figure. I used to be a huge fan, but have been turned off far more by his personality, and his inability (IMO) to be humble....villifying/alienating teammates that did not buy into his agenda....rather than whether he doped or not.

I think one of the things that makes him so divisive is the cult like following that some of his fans display vs. the haters.....both have drawn very different conclusions based on heresay and their own hopes/beliefs that heroes are either possible or a fantasy.

[BBB]

None of the other stuff matters.

Let me get this straight, in one thread where you do not like the message, you close it down. In this one, where clearly you do like the message - go back and check your own approving posts - the thread is left open. I understand the need to have moderators, but those chosen to moderate need to drop the double standard.

The other stuff does matter, in my opinion. If Armstrong goes down following the current investigation, then the critical part of his message will be lost. Yes he survived, but his subsequent success in his day job will seen to be fraudulent. In other words, the message will be amended to, yes you can survive, but you need to cut a few corners after the fact. Perhaps this won't matter to some people, perhaps it will to others. Either way, if he does go down his public position will be undermined - no political career for example.

Trying to shut down debate by a plea to an emotive issue (survivorship) is ridiculous in my opinion. I have been touched by cancer, yet I would run screaming the opposite way before I would give any money to a charity headed by Lance Armstrong. My Grandmother died when I was 11 years old following two rounds of cancer. It is the only time I have seen my father break down and cry in my 36 years. My best friend's father died of cancer when we were 14. It looked like he had it beaten and all of a sudden he went downhill and passed away very quickly. The memory of me playing a largely silent game of tennis with my best mate simply to get him out of the house and distract him from his loss is one of the abiding memories of my childhood. And being 14 and being a teenager, you do not deal with your emotions properly or at all and yet this was one of the only times I have seen my mate break down. Another friend had his 2 year old boy die following a year long illness. Think about that, for 24 months of his short life, twelve of them were spent in hospital. Being that young, he would not have had a clue what was causing him to feel so miserable before his young life ebbed away. There's not a day that goes by without me looking at my 18 month old and thinking of this kid. Would you like me to keep going?

So please, in this debate, do not insult people's intelligence or their feelings by raising an emotive defence about being touched by cancer. I apologise if this message offends anyone, but I cannot sit back and be told, effectively, to shut up and not debate an important, in a cycling sense, issue simply because of a disease that touches many. As I have set out above, it has touched me and yet I want to have this discussion, I think it is an important one and if I want I can just donate money to another cancer charity.

It is great that Armstrong uses cancer as a sword, but it is a bl**dy disgrace that he also uses it as a shield against allegations of cheating.

[mgm777]

BBB - Read the OP. This thread wasn't intended to be a debate/discourse of the guilt or innocence of LA. If you want to do that, start another thread and bash away to your heart's content.

[BBB]

I have read it and the thread morphed, as they often tend to do, into a more general discussion.

[oldpotatoe]

BBB - Read the OP. This thread wasn't intended to be a debate/discourse of the guilt or innocence of LA. If you want to do that, start another thread and bash away to your heart's content.

What did the OP(and you) expect to happen with a thread titled 'thank you Lance'? That everybody would fawn and agree with the OP? Reality check please!!!

[Lifelover]

What did the OP(and you) expect to happen with a thread titled 'thank you Lance'? That everybody would fawn and agree with the OP? Reality check please!!!

I started it to sincerely express my gratitude towards Lance. However, I did suspect it would bring those that are jealous of him out in droves. No lack of reality on my part.

[Charles M]

At days end, you have to have the "who cares" attitude...

What probably annoys them more than anything is that they can't Fuch up your thread title. It just turns into a "make sure we say something ****ty to end the thread" battle... But then that just re-tops your "Thank you Lance"


My favorite is that haters are getting better at blaming anything or nothing...

the thread morphed...


Yes... Nothing at all to do with people that can't let a positive go un trashed. it was "the thread"...


It's a nice tactic to say that Lance has "Used Cancer"... As if the guy went out and gave himself an injection (also a conspiracy theory mind you) of good old Cancer.

That twists LiveStrong around in a neat package... That means $30+ MILLION given in 2009 alone is actually an example of how BAD Lance is and the more he gives, the worse he is as a person.

:D





The highest level of recognition and support of cycling in North America than at any time in the past.

A few Hundred Million to the fight against Cancer.

And character that is absolutely debatable.

.

[michael white]

The other day i heard a good definition.

Q: What is resentment?
A: When you swallow poison and wait for the other guy to die.

[JMerring]

Between the 'haters' and the 'worshippers' there are those who recognize the multifaceted him for what he is, was and will be. It is a lot more nuanced than simply 'he's the greatest' or 'he's the worst.'

I'm sorry I didn't realize this thread was not intended for those who disagree with its premise - I'll try and stay away from those in future.

[victoryfactory]

Before this thread gets closed, I'll say it one more time.

Why do all our heros have to be perfect?

It will never happen.

They are humans, not gods.

Celebrate the good, disagree with the bad

let it go

VF

[malcolm]

Before this thread gets closed, I'll say it one more time.

Why do all our heros have to be perfect?

It will never happen.

They are humans, not gods.

Celebrate the good, disagree with the bad

let it go

VF

Exactly. We are all human and have the capacity for extremes of good and bad sometimes all within the same person. Politicians and athletes are viewed as either good or bad, depending on if you like them. Lance is self serving because he pushes his brand. I say he would be nuts if he didn't. he knows he has a limited amount of time to sell his wares and probably many years left to exist after his fame wanes. Enjoy these guys for their ability on the field of battle so to speak and look for people to idolize elsewhere, probably closer to home would be a good place to start.

But back on topic, love him or hate him american cycling owes him a thanks.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . But back on topic, love him or hate him american cycling owes him a thanks.

. . . I think this is a good place to end it.

BBD