What do I need know??

[Max]

I am trying to decided on a drive-train for the California Triple Crown Stage Race. I currently am using a Campy/Shimano 53-39/12-23, which certainly will not work for 47,000' of climbing and 600 miles. I am leaning toward using a Campy Triple 53-42-30 with customized custer 12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23,26 or maybe just a 13-29? I have never used a triple before. Is there anyone out there using a Campy 10 spd Triple?

Or is anyone using D/A 10 spd with a XTR RD and custer?

Please share your likes and/or dislikes on either drive-train. Thanks.

[Brian]

Max,

I use an Ultegra Triple (52-42-30) with a 12-25 rear end. It has shifted flawlessly for 6,000 miles and has never failed to provide me with enough gears.

Last year a group from my cycling club completed the Highlander Century (100 miles and 10,000+ feet with grades up to 22%). Two of us had Ultegra Triples with 12-25. One used an Ultegra 53-39 with an 11-32 mountain bike cassette (the 39-32 is almost an identical gear ratio to the 30-25). The other two riders used Ultegra 53-39 drives with 12-27 rear ends and paid the price for not having enough gears.

The person with the mountain bike cassette (some no-name 9 speeder) was very happy with the setup given the massive amounts of climbing and had zero shift problems. She did comment that the jumps between gears were large, but she was still very happy she chose to replace her 12-27 road cassette with the 11-32 mountain setup. You may, however, not care for the large gear spacing. Another issue with the 11-32 setup is you need to make sure the chain length can handle the 53-32 combo. If not, just make a mental note not to use that ratio.

[jeffg]

I completed my first California Triple Crown last year. I did the Devil Mountain Double, Central Coast, and the Terrible Two. BTW, these three are not to be missed, and were the original stage race. Now they rotate the doubles that make up the Stage Race, but I would never do Heartbreak or whatever instead of these three.

Anyway, I have used both a 48/34, 12-27 setup and a 53-39, 13-29. Many folks use a triple (and at least one of the fastest riders did), though some, like BigMac, use a 39X25 as a low gear. It just depends on your strength and cadence preferences. I prefer a 110 BCD setup to a triple, but that's personal and there are arguments for both sides. I would do a field test over some of the climbs and see how you feel. Remember that the last climbs on DMD and TT are among the toughest of the entire ride so think about your condition at mile 150-160.

Other than that, good luck! It's snowing here in NYC, but I swear I will limp through this year's DMD no matter what!

best,

Jeff

[BigMac]

Jeff has some very sound advice, as usual. Like him, I am not a fan of triples. Way too much gear overlap, too much fd shifting required, much greater chain wear, added complexity and for the weight weenie set, added weight. The benefits of triples are zero for roadies, at least imo. Triples work off-road where a bailout granny can be needed in certain instances but that is never the case on road. A 110bcd crank with 50/36 or 48/34 rings provides as many usable gears as a triple, is much lower Q than ANY triple (particularly if you find an NOS Ritchey or Mavic 110 crank), more consistent gear spacing and equal gear range when combined with reasonable rear cluster.

I personally use a 53/39 12-25 Campy 10 setup for all CTC events but have completed the DMD using a 53/39, 12-24 7 speed setup in past. I am a below average climber at best. Your gearing choices, as Jeff so noted, depend largely on you, your strengths, pedalling style and most importantly your chosen events.

For course choices, the DMD is the toughest, steepest and most challenging course with 18k feet of climbing, several very steep sections including Sierra Rd grade at mile 160 that is something around 18% average grade. You really need to get out and train on the various sections of this course to know what will work for you if you intend to ride DMD. I would NEVER recommend DMD as a maiden DC event although I believe JeffG did in fact lose his DC virginity on this route. The TT is another tough climbers event but I personally think its less technically challenging than DMD, its also 2500 ft less climbing as I recall. The tough part of TT for me is the mental anguish with often hellacious temps and many false summits along the Skagg's climb. The only other tough DC is Eastern Sierra which has less climbing than DMD or TT but much of route is at 8-10k ft elevation making oxygen rather scarce. There are a few mountain descents which are fast and very nasty with loose sand on roads, same can often be said for Mt Hamilton descent on DMD. Eastern Sierra has previously been held a week prior to TT, it is being moved several weeks earlier this year, or so I am told. There is also a new DC this year, the Mt Tam DC in Marin. I know the route quite well and can promise it will match TT in difficulty and temperature range. Expect everything from cool coastal winds out by Bodega Bay and Pt Reyes section to sweltering heat through San Geronimo Valley.

If any of the above are among your selected events, I would consider a 110bcd double or a short geared rear cluster, maybe both if needed. I use a 50/36 12-29 on my winter training bike that features fenders, lights, a rack and other goodies that add up to maybe a 28-30lb bike, I find that gearing to be very versatile riding BayArea mountains. If you are choosing the less daunting events like Solvang or Davis DC, I honestly think your current setup is sufficient. Try some good training rides like a loop from Livermore, up over Mt Hamilton, over toward Page Mill and up Sierra Rd along Calaveras Rd to Sunol then along Foothill Rd to Pleasanton and back to Livermore. Whatever gearing you can comfortably complete this shortened version of DMD should get you through any DC route you choose. I would choose a shorter geared rear cluster before opting for a new crankset. If that is still insufficient, buy a good 110bcd crank and an appropriate spindle length BB. You'll never miss the triple and will enjoy better shifting performance, better chain wear and lower Q.

Ride on!

[vaxn8r]

I like how you think Big Mac. Don't use no stinkin' triple!

I'm curious about your size.

[Max]

Brian, thanks for sharing your experience using a triple, and your friends experiences, too. That puts my mind to ease about selecting a triple for my new bike, which by the way has been hanging at my LBS since Friday waiting for me tell select its drive train. I've been out of town since Monday though, so I am working on it now.

Jeff, thanks for the great advice. Sounds like most of the fast riders use doubles, but like you said there are some fast triples out there. I talk to a LBS owner that did it 3 years ago using a triple, and he placed 6th overall. His advice was go with a triple and as low you can go. By the way are you the rider that won it last year? I am going down to my LBS today, and see what drive trains I can test out.

Big Mac, do you think I should go with a 110 bcd setup:) . I like your opinions, knowledge, experience, course descriptions, and the training advice is excellent. I agree with your points, and just need to get those test rides in to confirm what I think will work, and what will really work the best for me. I have made several trips up to northern California to train on different sections of a course before, not for CTC let, but I did when I ran the WS100. So, now I have a new excuse to visist your neck of the woods. All of your points were well made, and are well taken. Thank you for your reply, I could have asked for better. I will keep your reply for future reference through out the year.

Thanks everyone for your replies, I'll keep you posted on what I choose.

Now for a little fun. Below is an e-mail I received from Chuck Bramwell, the Executive Director of the California Triple Crown. Let's see what his reply was to my question of "What is the most popular drive train use in the CTC-Stage Race?", and if you know any of the riders he is talking about?

From: "Chuck Bramwell" <cbrams@caltriplecrown.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:57:44 -0800
Subject: RE: Drive Train Setup for the Stage Race

I rode it with a Shimano Dura-Ace Triple with 52-39-30 Chainrings and a
27-24-21-19-17-15-14-13-11 9 speed cassette last year. This worked really great for me.

I'd say that Triples are most popular ... although the faster guys ride it
with a Double ... and the really strong guys ride them with a Double and
maybe a 23 for a largest cassette ... however, those guys may only weigh 120 pounds or something.

Chuck

[jeffg]

Max --

No! I am nowhere near those crazy 120 lb Pantani-types that use the 11-23. I know someone who did the TT with such gearing and finished in about 12 hours, but he is a sponsored racer and did not win! I am happy to place in the top third, so I don't worry about being too competitive with anyone but myself.

I would, however, like to finish this year's DMD in under 15 hours. Given my current situation, though, this seems like a tall order. BigMac, if I recall, has even broken 14 hours, so he's pretty fast, IMHO since that time would have been in the top ten last year.

Anyway, I would either go with a 39X29 or 34/36X29 if you are going Campy. The only issue is that 48X13 is pretty meager for the downhills ("the plunge" on the other side of Morgan Territory comes to mind), so if you decide for the 34X29 I would either get a custom cassette (12-29) with a 48-34 or use a 50-34 110 BCD setup. Hope to see you at this year's DMD! I will be starting at 5:00 AM.

best,

Jeff

[jeffg]

Max -- I tried to post a reply to your private message, but I was told it was too long. I hope it is of some general interest.


Max wrote on 01-28-2004 12:30 PM:
Which setup do you like the best and why, 48/34, 12-27 setup or a 53-39, 13-29? What is your cadence preference? If you do mine me asking, what's your weight? Thanks again.


Max --

Right now I weigh about 150-155 (haven't checked in a while).

With Shimano doubles you can get a max 27 tooth cog. Now I did do the DMD (my first DC) and the Dolomite Marathon with a 53-39, 12-27 setup. To be honest, though, I was really hitting some low cadence points late in the rides (50-55, and worse on the short 18% pitches). I ideally prefer somewhere in the mid/high 70s for climbing, but that works for more moderate grades (Old La Honda, Kings Mountain, Diablo, etc.). Once you exceed 8% average on a long climb, then I am happy with anything over 60. To spin up the steepest climbs on the TT or DMD, a gear of 34X27 or better is advisable (at least at my strength level).

As for the setups: With 110 BCD cranks, you have to do some research yourself since the options are not as well known. I find my PMP crank/BB to be wonderful. The PMP BB will likely not last as long as the Phil on my Campy-equipped steed, so that is one downside. On the upside it is beautiful, very light (lighter than my DA 9 speed crank/bb), and shifts wonderfully. With the fall in the dollar, however, it has become quite expensive (as has most Euro gear). The Campy Chorus/Phil BB combo is heavier, particularly with the heavier Chorus 13-29 cassette. But either is lighter than a triple, and both will shift better. Just make sure you get matched chainrings (I prefer the TA Syrius, available from Peter White). The main disadvantage of these setups is you lose a 53X12 or better for downhills. I do spin out a bit in a 53X13 or 48X12 (I spin out at about 120 rpm/37-38 mph). Generally the descents in Northern California are quite twisty, so it's no big deal. In the Alps a 53X12 can be really fun, but I find the tradeoff to be worthwhile since you have to get up there first. Also, you have more usable gears for the flats since not many of us ride the flats on a DC at 27+ mph, so the 53X12 or even 13 is a downhill or sprint-only gear. For the climbs, a 34X29 is about a 30X26, and a 39X29 is about a 30X23. So, in my view a triple only gives you one or two extra climbing gears in a 13-29. You can get a 30X23/4 or even a 30X26 equivalent in a double, so a 12X25, or even 27 triple seems unnecessary. That being said, many folks use triples with great success in the CTC. Good luck! With any luck I will have time for a good trainer session today!


best,

Jeff

[davep]

Excellent thread since I am also debating a compact double or triple. Two points:

- while a 27 is the largest cog you can get from Shimano, an Ultegra (and most likely Dura-Ace) rear d. can handle a 30. You can get these cassettes at Harris Cyclery. I currently have a 12/30 with my Ultegra and it works great.

- with a 110/74 triple you are not limited to a 30 tooth inner. A 26 or even 24 inner ring opens up a whole new range of possibilities - a 11/21 or other close ratio cassette for close shifting but still having low gears, or a 12/25 or 27 for ultra low gearing.

[oracle]

about his experiences with a triple up the angry lou (a stage he won in the 02 TOS) and you may reach different conclusions than:

"The benefits of triples are zero for roadies, at least imo. Triples work off-road where a bailout granny can be needed in certain instances but that is never the case on road. "

oracle

beer drinker, patriot

[Max]

Thanks everyone for your help. Yesterday, I when to my LBS and test rode a Campy Triple, he didn't have any bcd cranks or compacts that he would recommend for me (knowing my standards). I took it up one of the toughest hills in southern California. I needed a 30X21 to spin up it, I had done it before in my 39x23, but at a slow rpm. This was done at 20 miles into a ride, so my legs were fresh, unlike what they will be at 160 or 180 in the TTs.

I figured based on all the information from everyone, I needed probably about 30 inch gear for the CTC-Stage Race. I choose to go with a Campy triple 30X42X53 / 13X26 because of the gear ranges, quality, and the availability.

I learned from one of the fast riders using a triple on the CTC-SR, he stayed in the middle chain ring most of the time and prefered a finer spacing in the gearing, only on the steep hill sections was he in a different ring. Jeffg mentioned Campy/Phil Wood will last longer, and that was important to me, because I don't like having to replace parts anymore often than I have to. And my LBS said Campy was generally more availability to him than the compact/bcd, another important factor to me when I need a replace part just before a ride. The weight of the drive train was not nearly as important to as the other factors, and my own weight (190-195 lbs). The shifting was better than my old 8spd Dura Ace double, so no complain there, and I felt Campy a good selection of clusters for my different needs. This is a good decision for me now, I am sure it's not for everyone, and I am sure things in the future will change as they always do.

I'll be picking-up my new bike late on Saturday afternoon, and with the forecast for Sunday calling for mostly sunny skies, and 67 degrees, it sounds like I might get out for a little ride :) . Now with this decision behide me, I am looking forward to doing the Solvang DC, and then the Stage Race. Thanks again, and I hope to see some of you on the CTC series.