Disgusting OT: Septic shock

[2LeftCleats]

Looking not necessarily for legal advice but perhaps general advice/confirmation of my plan.

Just purchased 1960s-era rural home. Home inspection did cursory septic dye test suggesting it was functioning but had a disclaimer that it was not meant to be a real septic evaluation. I'm kicking myself that I didn't order an inspection but owner had receipts showing pumping at regular inervals. First week we move in it overflows. County health inspector says it's not a septic tank with absorption field but just a holding tank which should be pumped every few weeks. Everything in purchase agreement refers to 'septic system'. Estimate to build a real septic system will be maybe $10-15K. Health inspector says we've got to change this to septic unless it's techically not possible. (Due to steep ravine downhill from the house, it might require lots of disrupted yard, driveway, pumps, etc) Previous owner moved back to his native Denmark.

I think we were mislead, deliberately or not, and would likely not have purchased the home with knowledge of a holding tank, at least not at that price. The fact that the owner claimed only to pump 1500 gal. tank every 2 yr in a house with washer, dishwasher, 4 bathrooms seems suspect.

We've talked with our realtor, who's being stonewalled a bit by the seller's agent. It has been suggested that in addition to getting a contractor to estimate cost/feasibility, I ought to contact the mortgage lender and/or title co who may be able to exert legal pressure without us needing to engage an attorney. A concern is that if the lender wouldn't have given us a loan due to improper sewage system, would they rescind the loan now?

Help! I'm knee-deep in it with a wife who's "not going to live with a sh*t hole"

[BengeBoy]

I'd get a lawyer if I were in your shoes.

[572cv]

Sounds like, overall, you have a nice location but with a particular problem. You may have someone in your area who can set up one of these systems from Presby.... they are slicker than, well, you know what. Fairly priced, and sometimes will work where other more expensive systems won't. And if it is less money, you can propose to split the cost and everyone gets something out of it.

http://www.presbyenvironmental.com/

Good luck!

[2LeftCleats]

Sounds like, overall, you have a nice location but with a particular problem. You may have someone in your area who can set up one of these systems from Presby.... they are slicker than, well, you know what. Fairly priced, and sometimes will work where other more expensive systems won't. And if it is less money, you can propose to split the cost and everyone gets something out of it.

http://www.presbyenvironmental.com/

Good luck!



Thanks for the idea of a non-septic solution

[Birddog]

Don't most states have a "full disclosure" rule now? Surely somewhere in the description it states what type of system you were buying, i.e city sewer, septic system (aerobic or anaerobic).

[retrogrouchy]

Looking not necessarily for legal advice but perhaps general advice/confirmation of my plan.

Just purchased 1960s-era rural home. Home inspection did cursory septic dye test suggesting it was functioning but had a disclaimer that it was not meant to be a real septic evaluation. I'm kicking myself that I didn't order an inspection but owner had receipts showing pumping at regular inervals. First week we move in it overflows. County health inspector says it's not a septic tank with absorption field but just a holding tank which should be pumped every few weeks. Everything in purchase agreement refers to 'septic system'. Estimate to build a real septic system will be maybe $10-15K. Health inspector says we've got to change this to septic unless it's techically not possible. (Due to steep ravine downhill from the house, it might require lots of disrupted yard, driveway, pumps, etc) Previous owner moved back to his native Denmark.

I think we were mislead, deliberately or not, and would likely not have purchased the home with knowledge of a holding tank, at least not at that price. The fact that the owner claimed only to pump 1500 gal. tank every 2 yr in a house with washer, dishwasher, 4 bathrooms seems suspect.

We've talked with our realtor, who's being stonewalled a bit by the seller's agent. It has been suggested that in addition to getting a contractor to estimate cost/feasibility, I ought to contact the mortgage lender and/or title co who may be able to exert legal pressure without us needing to engage an attorney. A concern is that if the lender wouldn't have given us a loan due to improper sewage system, would they rescind the loan now?

Help! I'm knee-deep in it with a wife who's "not going to live with a sh*t hole"

Bummer. Pumping receipts mean nothing. Were they showing pump-outs only every 24 months, though? I highly doubt it, unless the seller intentionally covered up the lack of a field. I've never even heard of a 'normal' septic system without a draintile field. That is weird. Our old system had two 1500-gallon tanks, was built in 1970, and was for a 1600 square-foot three-bedroom Midwestern home. That system (with a draintile field) needed pumping out approx. every two years.
You have to dig up all four corners of a septic field to test it. That's a bare minimum, really....

[retrogrouchy]

I'd get a lawyer if I were in your shoes.

+1.

I've taken one to every closing we've had, and it saved more than the billed amount every time! Did you have one at the closing? Did he/she review the package with you prior to the closing? If not, then oh sh.....

[Derailer]

I'd get a lawyer if I were in your shoes.

This.

[Ken Robb]

I'm afraid that you will have to work this one out yourself because the seller is probably judgement-proof unless he still has assets in the USA. There's no use suing someone not in your jurisdiction and with no assets to attach if you win.

Do you think the seller's broker knew and concealed the misrepresentation? He might be liable if he did.

[rwsaunders]

Did the seller sign a disclosure statement and did the statement have a clause stating that there was an occupancy permit issued by the governing jurisdiction? Didn't your lender require an inspection? Most holding tank permits are issued for temporary occupancy only, with a limited amount of time.

Don't mess around and get an attorney. My guess is that the attorney will make life miserable for both the seller as well as for the real estate firm who represented the seller, resulting in compensation for the installation of a permitted system.

PS...see if you can locate the firm that had been pumping the tank. Receipts which show that the pumping intervals were more frequent than that which were stated by the seller, should help your position.

[retrogrouchy]

Did the seller sign a disclosure statement and did the statement have a clause stating that there was an occupancy permit issued by the governing jurisdiction? Didn't your lender require an inspection? Most holding tank permits are issued for temporary occupancy only, with a limited amount of time.

Don't mess around and get an attorney. My guess is that the attorney will make life miserable for both the seller as well as for the real estate firm who represented the seller, resulting in compensation for the installation of a permitted system.

PS...see if you can locate the firm that had been pumping the tank. Receipts which show that the pumping intervals were more frequent than that which were stated by the seller, should help your position.

+1.

[AngryScientist]

that is a tough position. being from the nyc metro area, and having lived all over the east coast, i've never had a house that didnt use public sewer system.

i do know that the few home purchases i've been involved with, full disclosure was definitely required.

i would start by researching your municipalities rules concerning septic systems, seems a holding tank may not be legally acceptable for long term use. also get someone qualified to fully inspect your system so you know exactly what you're working with.

a little leg work on your part will probably save you a few bucks with the lawyer if you do the research instead of him/her.

good luck, sorry to hear about this, its always something you hope wont happen when making major purchases.

[MattTuck]

My parents had a tank (open on the bottom) like this and never had a problem. They lived on very sandy/gravelly soil, so drainage was quite good.

To me, it doesn't make sense you'd have to pump it every 2 weeks.


I'd go to the hardware store and pick up some microbelift, or other similar product that contains bacteria that you flush down the toilet. The bacteria then eat the **** in the tank. When my parents were using this, they had the tank pumped out after 5 years and the guy said the tank was only 1/4 full.

Sorry to hear about your problems:(

[gemship]

I don't have much to give in advice but I will say a few things. Here in Ma. a proper septic system with a leeching field (which of course your holding tank is lacking) is very expensive and can only be installed by licensed pros. We just had one installed on the property and it cost 37K some are as much as 50k or 60K :crap: Your 10k to 15k figure in the regard sounds cheap and incredibly attractive.

I would also agree with MattTuck that pumping out the holding tank every couple of weeks sounds exaggerated and or overzealous if not wrong. It could be very well possible that the previous owner was not fully aware of what the differences are in septic tanks and holding tanks. It's also possible that what he said is true of pumping it out only every couple years which by the way here in Ma. even with a proper septic system this is mandatory I believe every three years. I think it really depends on the frequency of use and what you flush down the toilet. FWIW don't flush the toilet paper because that can cause a system to back up.

You should find out the size/volume of your holding tank and talk with a expert that pumps these tanks out. Possibly talk with the people who did it in the past, just look at the receipts for their name. Tell them you needs and see what they say maybe it's not so bad after all.

[Ken Robb]

FWIW I don't flush the toilet paper because that can cause a system to back up.
l.
LOL at the memory of local humor in my hometown. The population was 85% a nationality proud of their thriftiness. My folks were Scottish immigrants and our neighbors made us look like profligate spenders.

A standard joke told by them and on them was that you could tell you were in a (blank) neighborhood by the toilet paper hung out to dry. It was a good place to grow up. :)

[alancw3]

i own a property in rural bucks county, pa. i had to have a new septic tank system and leeching field put in several years ago at a cost of $18,000. the county told me that if i didn't put in the new system that i would not be able lto sell the property. no choice. the system works great.

[2LeftCleats]

Thanks for all the useful info. FWIW former owner pumped it every 2 yr not every 2 wk, but health inspector said a true holding tank ought to be pumped every few wks at $150-200/pump. We're likely heading to see an attorney real soon, but from the pessimistic and expensive tone of some of the replies, I'm thinking that I may be taking my next vacation at home

[gemship]

LOL at the memory of local humor in my hometown. The population was 85% a nationality proud of their thriftiness. My folks were Scottish immigrants and our neighbors made us look like profligate spenders.

A standard joke told by them and on them was that you could tell you were in a (blank) neighborhood by the toilet paper hung out to dry. It was a good place to grow up. :)


Ha,ha that's funny. Well I wasn't going to recommend this but I thought about it. See I live alone in a house with a septic tank that works great just not up to the new title v standard and I also have a well that's been known to dry up on some very dry summers. Since I live in a rural area with some seclusion from my neighbors often times I'll step out side to the backyard for a pee, heck I have even averted a disaster or two with the toilet by doing the same for number two :p but that's only when the power goes out :p

Just like being thrifty and saving some water and my septic tank, nothing wrong with that. Now if I lived in a more densely populated place different story on the other hand Jiffy Johns are kind a cool :butt:

[palincss]

. Now if I lived in a more densely populated place different story on the other hand Jiffy Johns are kind a cool :butt:

These (http://www.clivusmultrum.com/) are much cooler.

[SEABREEZE]

We live rural,with a septic system.Since living there we always put the paper in the basket next to the toilet. This was advised by the the fellow that came out to clean our holding tank. Since then no more problems...

The pleasures of not living with the masses. LOL

[gemship]

These (http://www.clivusmultrum.com/) are much cooler.


Oh yes I forgot about those. I actually mentioned those to my mother whom I love but nonetheless we had a bit of a disagreement as to the legality of them in use where we live. She's evidently ignorant as am I. I can't figure out why they wouldn't be up to code but according to her... I think in her mind it has something to do with drainage of water for other uses but she doesn't really know so...

Sorry for the thread jack I'm actually entrenched in my own pile of crap, pun intended. My folks and I are trying to build a wee house on the property my mother owns. So far 60k paid for two acres of land to be perched,surveyed, subdivided into two separate livable house lots, a septic system for the new house and a twenty by twenty ft. foundation with a three foot crawl space, that would be the wee house.

It's retarded, my parents are retarded, the city I live in is greedy and retarded. Saving money, green houses just aren't hip. There was a time a while ago I was willing to shell out for all this work and now I'm glad I didn't just because I would get to live in it but it's not my land so what do I care. My ideas just don't jive with hers. Like I said sorry for the thread jack.

[wc1934]

+1 regarding an attorney - what type of system do your neighbors have - I find it hard to believe that the bank would not have reviewed this prior to lending you the money.

[2LeftCleats]

We spoke with the next door neighbor who insists there is a septic system with the field in a flatter area down the ravine. He says he talked with the owner "all the time" about it (can't wait to see what else he talks about). The overflow may be due to field oversaturation from recent torrential rains. Spoke with a septic guy who's coming out to look to figure out for sure what we've got but he's also concerned that with the age of our home, the field, if we have one, may be at the end of it's life. He says if it needs replacement, the Presby system mentioned previously is preferred by the local govt. Probably that will still be cheaper than than clearing trees to create a field uphill from the tank and pumping against gravity.

As usual, the forum provides a wealth of quick info on an unbelievable array of topics.

You guys know your sh*t!

Thanks

[retrogrouchy]

We spoke with the next door neighbor who insists there is a septic system with the field in a flatter area down the ravine. He says he talked with the owner "all the time" about it (can't wait to see what else he talks about). The overflow may be due to field oversaturation from recent torrential rains. Spoke with a septic guy who's coming out to look to figure out for sure what we've got but he's also concerned that with the age of our home, the field, if we have one, may be at the end of it's life. He says if it needs replacement, the Presby system mentioned previously is preferred by the local govt. Probably that will still be cheaper than than clearing trees to create a field uphill from the tank and pumping against gravity.

As usual, the forum provides a wealth of quick info on an unbelievable array of topics.

You guys know your sh*t!

Thanks

Now that sounds more like it. Now (at least) you are making some progress. Best of luck in these, uh, stinky endeavors.

[tkbike]

I am enjoying this topic!
I have never owned a home without a septic system, and have never added any additional bacteria to a system. There are two theories to septic systems; 1-if it is designed properly it should never have to be pumped, 2-it should be pumped every 3 - 5 years. My 1st home I owned for 15 years and never had the tank pumped(it was pumped and inspected when sold, I was informed after pumping it did not need to be pumped and passed inspection with no problems). My current home was pumped after 5 years(I listened to the experts who said it should be pumped) and did not need to be pumped either. Both leach fields and dry wells(bottomless holding tanks) are common in upstate NY and both work very well depending on the soil type.

[csm]

as anybody who has ridden RAGBRAI..... get a Kybo!

[retrogrouchy]

These (http://www.clivusmultrum.com/) are much cooler.

I'm seeing more and more of those in National (and State?) parks. Is it a specific study?

[Dekonick]

I have to laugh. I ran a call recently for 'an alarm sounding' in a residential home... mind you, a multi million dollar home...

So... we pull up in our fire engine... expect to find the usual... a smoke detector with a low battery alarm. Nope. It was the alarm from their holding tank... they did not know they had a ***** tank and no septic field! Woopsie!

[Peter B]

<<snip>>

See I live alone in a house with a septic tank that works great just not up to the new title v standard and I also have a well that's been known to dry up on some very dry summers. Since I live in a rural area with some seclusion from my neighbors often times I'll step out side to the backyard for a pee, heck I have even averted a disaster or two with the toilet by doing the same for number two :p but that's only when the power goes out :p



+1 Gemship.

If you can't pee in your own front yard then you live too close to town.

[Louis]

+1 Gemship.

If you can't pee in your own front yard then you live too close to town.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. First thing before the start of a ride and last thing at the end. Right on my gravel driveway... (How's that for showing class :p )

[rwsaunders]

Good website links for info...

http://www.iowpa.org/Homeowners.html

http://www.iowpa.org/files/homeowner_guide_long_epa.pdf

[Peter B]

Least you have gravel...

[Birddog]

I'm with TKBIKE, you really shouldn't have to pump a tank on a regular basis if you just follow some sensible rules. Just paper poop, pee, and graywater should go into the tank. No feminine products, cigarette butts, or food through a .disposal. The old way of dealing with a lack of bacteria was to flush down some brewer's yeast from time to time. I don't know if that is really effective or not. A separate graywater system can save you some heartache and money in many cases. So can a front loading washer and low flush toilets.

After our vacation place was inhabited by skunks some years ago, I was told to pee around the perimeter when the opportunity arose. Apparently the skunks don't like the human urea. I do it often and haven't had a return of the skunks so it must be true! It doesn't really matter, most of us boys like to pee outdoors when we can anyway, so peeing with a purpose is a small reward.


OP, get several opinions on your leach field, locally there are horror stories of guys replacing entire systems when all that was really nec. was some simple alterations to the field.

[Jangles13]

It could be that the system is coincidentally failing. Poor timing for sure, but maybe not malicious on the part of the seller.

A crushed or blocked line from said tank to the elusive field would be all that is required to cause an overflowing system.

If you haven't already, perhaps the best thing for you to do is dig enough up around the tank enough to try and locate any drain lines. Fun as it sounds, this may require putting your head in the tank with a flashlight ... mirrors are also recommended.

Check with the city/town, most require septic designs for homes; they are kept on record. Do you know the age of the system, regardless of size and design? Lifespan can be as short as 20yrs depending on materials, soils, and usage.

In the event that you have been mislead and or cheated, I'd say you're on your own given the situation. Call it an education; one you didn't want, but nonetheless are paying for.

edit to add: I've encountered plenty of "systems" that have no leech fields. The good 'ole boys were known to take old oil drums and puncture them in a number of places... then simply plant them. And those worked for decades...

[Ahneida Ride]

I should not state this ... but ...

My buddy purchases his new house (house is about 40 years old).

He invites me over for a beer ..

I... uh .... use his .. uh facilities .....

Next day the septic over flows ...

He still blames me.

[2LeftCleats]

The saga continues. The pump guys removed 1750 gal today from the 2 tanks ($495--gulp). (They use no gloves handling the suction hose--didn't care to shake hands with them afterward). They also install septic systems and believe there's no space in the vicinity for a gravity fed field and there are no pumps in the system. So the pendulum swings back. Checked the water co. records for seller's last mo here--living alone he used 650 gal a month and his wife had been with him some months ago. The calculations don't match for a pump every 18-24 mos. We're trying to contact him through his agent to clarify if there is a field. Otherwise it may be that he simply let it overflow. Maybe BP has a spare cap they can place over this. The county came to do soil samples. We meet with them and someone else next wk who's going to try to find the field. If none, then off to an attorney to see what our options are. It does force prudent water use which is good.

[Louis]

($495--gulp)

After living in apartments for ages I finally bought a house 6 years ago. Shortly after that I concluded that any home-related job that costs less than $5000 is good news :crap:

It does force prudent water use which is good.

Yup - this is a good idea anywhere. I live out in the boonies (where the cycling is good) and have both a well and a septic system (which I assume has a drain field of some sort, but I don't know for sure). Because of the well I try to conserve water as much as possible by doing stuff like turning the shower off while soaping up. The thing that I'm more proud of is not waiting for the hot water to get to the shower before I get in. It takes about 60 seconds for the water coming out of the shower head to begin to warm up, so if you wait that's just water wasted down the drain. I'm not man enough to do this in the winter, but in the late spring, summer and early fall I steel myself for the "cold" water (basement temp, because that's where my pressure vessel is) and feel like I'm doing my part to not waste resources.

Good luck with the septic tank. If the house and the area are nice you'll come to appreciate the place in the long run.

L

[dvs cycles]

I should not state this ... but ...

My buddy purchases his new house (house is about 40 years old).

He invites me over for a beer ..

I... uh .... use his .. uh facilities .....

Next day the septic over flows ...

He still blames me.How BIG was that beer? :beer:

[Pete Serotta]

How BIG was that beer? :beer:


Ray lives close to lake george and is invited every spring and not every summer :beer: :beer: