OT: Help me spend a bunch of $ (new car)

[Louis]

OK folks, I need some help.

On Thursday as I drove to work I got to watch the odometer of my ’97 Acura Integra turn over 200,000 miles. Although it’s done pretty darn well so far (only significant repair was a new radiator a while back, other than that, it’s still on its original clutch, muffler, brake disks, etc and it still gets over 35 mpg over a tank’s worth of gas) it probably won’t last forever.

My problem is that I really can’t find something to replace it. Acura no longer makes the Integra (aka RSX). To give you an idea of how good I think this car is, I would buy the exact same car again today new if I could, even though the design and technology is well over 10 years old. (That may be a sign of how little progress there has been in the automotive world since then.) I suppose I could buy a used RSX (they stopped making them in 2006) but right now I’m thinking new.

To give you some idea of my criteria, here’s a rough breakdown of 100 points in the areas that I think are important:

Reliability – 25
Easily accessible space for stuff like a bike in back (hatchback preferred) – 20
Eye-pleasing and sporty (2-door preferred, 2 seats only OK) - 20
Gas mileage (30 mpg minimum) - 15
Price – 10
Quality dealer service – 5
Intangibles - 5

Examples of where I think some existing cars fall short:

Honda Fit – Looks = 0 pts
Honda Accord 2dr - access to trunk (i.e. not a hatch), gas mileage
Honda Civic = access to trunk
Honda Elephant = Looks / sporty= 0 and gas mileage
VW Jetta / Gti – Reliability = not very good, gas mileage not as good as you’d think
Mazda 3 – Probably what I would buy if I had to go out Monday and put my $ down, but in my case 4 doors is a negative and I’m not sure about reliability
Volvo C30 – Nifty looks, poor reliability, hatch is way too small, price is high for what you get
Mini – Can you even put a bike in back with the rear wheel on?

Final two options:

1) Keep the Integra one more year (225k miles…) and see if anything better is available next year.

2) Lease something that I don't consider "a keeper" but meets most of my requirements (waste of money, have to pay for miles)

Aside: my current dream car for looks and intangibles (in this case, cachet), but not available in US, not reliable and expensive: 2010 ALFA Giulietta:

http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/27362458/epcp_0912_02_o+2010_alfa_romeo_giulietta+right_rea r.jpg

[fourflys]

re: Mazda- no worries on reliability, I had a Miata with 148k on it when I sold it and it was running strong...


If I was in your shoes, I would have to look at the new Ford Fiesta and, if you can find one, one of the Saturn Astra's that are basically a Euro Opal...

Take a look at the Subaru's as well... or this (http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/)

The Saturn
http://www.thetorquereport.com/saturn_astra_xr_3dr_rear_side-thumb.jpg

New Ford Fiesta
http://toughsledding.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/fiesta.jpg

[bozman]

I would keep the Integra another year and then look at the new Ford Focus five door (can't call anything a wagon in the US.)

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/focus/2012/?referrer=http://www.ford.com

Consumer Reports has had better things to say about the Jetta TDI wagon. I may try to lease one at the end of this year when my current lease is up.

That ALFA is sweet!

[avalonracing]

I hate to admit it... But that Focus looks nice and could be a good option.

I had a first, second and third gen Integra. They were all great cars but that second gen was really amazing.

My '91 Integra did it all. It was sporty and fun, reliable as hell, held all of my bikes and photo equipment and it was still a car that was mature enough to drive a client someplace.

My solution now that I can't have a nice new second gen Integra? Three vehicles.
A 4Runner for the bikes and reliability
A Mercedes C Class for clients and sporty driving
A Honda VFR800 for seriously wringing out
Oh yeah and a Subaru Forester for wife

The funny part is that I think I pay less insurance for all of those cars now that I'm in my 40s than I did for my Integra when I was 23.

[SoCalSteve]

My wife just got a Honda Element and I must say, Im really impressed with it. And, Im very hard to please when it comes to cars and stuff.

Buy the Element and help pay for it by selling the HC to me.

Done deal!

Steve

[Louis]

Buy the Element and help pay for it by selling the HC to me.

Since Serotta is not offering the DKS you could have DK build you a Terraplane with as sloping a TT as you like ;)

I don't think I could ever get used to the Element's looks, and with the twisty, hilly roads around here, it is nice to have a zippy car.

[SoCalSteve]

Since Serotta is not offering the DKS you could have DK build you a Terraplane with as sloping a TT as you like ;)

I don't think I could ever get used to the Element's looks, and with the twisty, hilly roads around here, it is nice to have a zippy car.

I am way ahead of you (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=61032)

I still want YOUR bike.

[pbjbike]

You'd really buy an ALFA??? If you could?... Hope they're more reliable than 25-30 years ago. The company is Italian, but it sure isn't Campagnolo quality. Drive the Acura till 250K. It will make it, maybe with a new clutch. Cheers

[markie]

Alfa is owned by Fiat and Fiat "owns" Chrysler.

So you might get an Alfa in a year or two.

I doubt they are as fun to drive as a Mini Cooper which will fit a bike in the back with just the front wheel taken off.

I really like mine! I occasionally think the grass is greener and look at other cars, but there is nothing around now for that kind of price I would trade for.

[Louis]

or this (http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/)

I could drag-race or auto-cross against the Smart Cars !!!



PBJ,

If the Guilietta were available I'd be very tempted but in the end I think the rational part of my brain would probably win. (It was fun when I had my '87 Spider, though I also had two other cars, so it was not my daily driver.)

[Louis]

I doubt they are as fun to drive as a Mini Cooper which will fit a bike in the back with just the front wheel taken off.

Markie, I would not have guessed that.

What size frame do you ride? (60 in my case)

[NRRider]

Good luck, especially if you're trying to get over 30 mpg. I ended up buying a Prius and am happy with it, but it's anything but snappy (thought it actually does pretty well in "Power" mode). Waiting for the Tesla sedan to come out. Other than a steep price tag it seems perfect.

Also looked at the Honda Crosstour, rated 27 mpg on the highway, but they made the interior of the hatch compartment so narrow I couldn't fit my bike in it.

Have you looked at the recent offerings from Hyundai? Bought an Elantra sedan for my son and it's been great. The Elantra Touring seems pretty sharp and the price is right. Hyundai seems to be coming into their own. http://www.hyundaiusa.com/elantra-touring/specifications.aspx

[markie]

Markie, I would not have guessed that.

What size frame do you ride? (60 in my case)

I have a 60 Rivendell. It fits with the fenders on and front wheel off, but I have to move the passenger seat forward.

The other bikes I have are all smaller and do not have fenders and they fit with just the front wheel off.

There is always the Mini Clubman if you are really concerned. :) I got one for a loaner whilst my car was getting serviced and it was a lot of fun, too.

[Louis]

Have you looked at the recent offerings from Hyundai?

I haven't looked a Hyundai, but the Kia Pro Ceed is pretty nifty (It's not available in the US).

The Crosstour initially caught my eye, but overall it seems inefficient in terms of use of space (as you noticed) vs its size and gas mileage.

http://tarrascao.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/kia-pro-ceed-hatchback-2.jpg

[Louis]

I have a 60 Rivendell. It fits with the fenders on and front wheel off, but I have to move the passenger seat forward.

The other bikes I have are all smaller and do not have fenders and they fit with just the front wheel off.

Great. The Mini's been on the "possible" list for a while and when I finally get down to making a decision I will test-drive one.

Thanks.

[haimtoeg]

Have you considered a Subaru?

[Louis]

Have you considered a Subaru?

Do you mean one of their station wagons? Not really. I've thought about them a tiny bit, and the 4wd is attractive for the handful of times when it snows in winter (we have hilly, curvy roads that are not plowed often, and my gravel driveway is too long for me to shovel) but I just can't see myself in a station wagon.

[Ken Robb]

my 2007 Mini-Cooper S (turbo engine) has been trouble-free for 20,000 miles and has averaged 32mpg overall since new. Easy freeway cruising at 75 mph has yielded 38 mpg and it's really FRISKY. Turns in like a go-kart :) Rides like a go-kart :crap:

I used it yesterday to haul a complete Mercruiser Bravo 3 outdrive. The mechanic made me wait so he could get a photo of "that huge thing in that little car". The weight made the ride pretty cushy too. '

[false_Aest]

My truck will die in the next year.

Ive been looking at a Kia Soul.

It's not a "car" but its close.

[Louis]

Ive been looking at a Kia Soul.

I don't know if I'm hip enough to drive one of those. Maybe if I shave my head (but keep my beard) and get a tattoo they might sell me one!!!

[michael white]

My 96 Integra has only 110k. Still runs fine. If you want to buy something like it but new, something that holds bikes and is a good driver, I am personally leaning to the Elantra Touring. Tuned in Europe for Germans, lots of space, good mileage. Probably not as good to drive as a Mazda 3 hatch, but a lot less money, and better than anything at the price if you believe the critics.

But the engine is actually a step down from the Integra. This is what I've noticed about cars: they really haven't evolved as quickly as it seems. That old Honda mill is a full alloy 1.8, makes about 140 hp, gets 35 mpg. The Elantra is 2.0, makes 131, has an iron block, gets 32 mpg I think. Not to mention the lack of refinement. The next Elantra, probably due here in two years, will have a direct injection engine, but for now I doubt you can get a better motor than the Integra for what you want to pay.

[markie]

That old Honda mill is a full alloy 1.8, makes about 140 hp, gets 35 mpg. The Elantra is 2.0, makes 131, has an iron block, gets 32 mpg I think.

That is a tough comparison for a number of reasons:

The Integra was a middle-market product, definitely more "premium" than a Hyundai.

Honda's engineering focus was on their fancy engines.

Cars have gotten much heavier due to all the safety systems.

Look at 0-60 times or hp of sporty cars. It is not so long ago that that only Ferrari's could do 150mph, nowadays there a lots o cars that can get there.

[thwart]

Well, if you want to spend a bunch of $...

An A3 is a reasonable choice.

[Louis]

but for now I doubt you can get a better motor than the Integra for what you want to pay.

I think the price thing is an interesting issue.

When I bought it I think the Integra was ~$17k. As I thought about the whole thing one question I asked myself was "If the same car were available today, how much would you be willing to pay?" In some sense it's not a fair question because it would be nice to have a change after all these years, but given that I could find nothing that really interested me I soon had to admit that at say $25k it would be a difficult choice.

If I were to find something that exceed all my criteria (something that might not exist), something that moved me in some weird, impossible to define way, (the way say, an ALFA GTV does), then I might go more than $25k, but I think that's highly unlikely.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SMlL9MZDENI/AAAAAAAA47A/IrW9gRMFr-A/s400/Alfa-GTV-V8-11.jpg

[Louis]

Well, if you want to spend a bunch of $...

An A3 is a reasonable choice.

You guys keep wanting to put me in a station wagon. Next thing you know, I'll be driving a hearse. :p

(Some kid in the neighborhood used to have one a few years ago. Plenty of room in back for the bike.)

[michael white]

That is a tough comparison for a number of reasons:

The Integra was a middle-market product, definitely more "premium" than a Hyundai.

Honda's engineering focus was on their fancy engines.

Cars have gotten much heavier due to all the safety systems.

Look at 0-60 times or hp of sporty cars. It is not so long ago that that only Ferrari's could do 150mph, nowadays there a lots o cars that can get there.

I'm just saying, where's the improvement? It's wierd, in an amusing way . . . VW just announced the 2011 Jetta. Big improvement, they say, German Engineering blah blah . . . base engine? The crappy old 2.0 115 hp from the Golf that everybody always hated. My Integra engine from 14 years ago is in a whole different league.

[markie]

I'm just saying, where's the improvement?

In the safety...

[michael white]

ok.
but.

[Louis]

I'm just saying, where's the improvement?

I agree. Even though safety equipment has added to the overall weight so had idiotic stuff like powered seats (why in the world would I want that?) or powered sun roofs and 12 speaker sound systems. Plus, all the weight notwithstanding, you'd think engine tweaks could help keep up with that.

Given the combination of decent acceleration of my Integra (powered exterior mirrors and all) especially if you wind up the engine, which I hardly ever do, and gas mileage, it's stupid that so few cars today are in the 35 mpg+ range. I have a 13 gallon tank and the low fuel system starts to flash with the needle at the E mark. Nearly every time I fill up I'll have more than 350 miles on the trip odometer and put around 9.7-9.9 gallons into the tank. Why in the world can't more of today's cars do that? We're paying the price in so many different ways, and your grandkids will curse us even more for it.

[Ken Robb]

don't forget that the method of testing for fuel economy was changed a few years ago so the MPG ratings are lower but closer to real world performance.

I would be very worried that your 200,000+ miles have about used up the clutch. Replacement in most front wheel cars costs quite a bit more than it does in a rear wheel car so keeping it for another year could cost more than it's worth.

I don't think there is anything planned for introduction next year that will be better for you than you can buy now.

[130R]

honda is coming out with a hybrid sports hatchback called the CR-Z

worth waiting for if it suits your needs

[WickedWheels]

I used to be a firm believer in "practical" cars. My previous cars have been:
'90 Toyota Camary
'98 Chevy Malibu
'03 Honda Civc EX
'05 Mazda 3 Hatch Sport

The last two cars I drove when I had a job that required 40-50k per year of driving. Reliability is a good criteria, just as gas mileage and everything else, but when I got a job close to home (9 miles) I threw all of that out of the window and got a fun car. I bought a 2001 BMW 330ci convertible, stick and it's been a blast. The mileage isn't nearly as good as my last two cars (22-24mpg), it's about 20-30% more expensive to repair, I only fill it with premium gas, but I look forward to driving it. I smile every time I get into the car and chuckle to myself every time I see someone looking at my convertible when they're driving their "practical" cars or minivans. At least a couple of times a week I'll notice a "family man" in his minivan or station wagon (today it was a guy in a Volvo wagon) staring off wishfully at the car with the top down.

To justify it to myself and the wife I simply looked at the pluses...
- high mileage car that I bought used with relatively low miles (less than a 1/3 of expected life)
- I paid less for the '01 Bimmer than what I would've bought a '06 Civic for
- at some point the value of these cars stops going down, assuming it's in halfway decent shape
- life is too short to always make practical decisions. You have to have fun with it.

BTW... as for bike rack... Saris Bones RS fits well and works great. And later today I will be using the car as a race-support vehicle, as my toolbox just fits in the trunk.

[markie]

honda is coming out with a hybrid sports hatchback called the CR-Z

worth waiting for if it suits your needs


Ummm, I do not think it is going to live up to its promise:

http://jalopnik.com/5566437/2011-honda-cr+z-first-drive-wip

[Karin Kirk]

Louis, you have a lot of the same priorities as we do. I feel equally stuck as to a suitable replacement for our Passat wagon.
+1 on the Mini Clubman. While you're at it, get the S version. If you have a dealer nearby, bring your bike with you to test the fit, of course.
If you go with a Mini you can spend considerable time dreaming up fun paint schemes with stripes and accents. The Mini website is pretty fun.

Bottom line though, is the driving experience. We just love ours.

It is frustrating to see all the neat cars available in Europe that they won't offer here. Like you, I keep wondering if in x years, there will be a better selection here.

[jhcakilmer]

Subaru WRX would be a great choice. Several different models, reliable, hatchback (5 doors), AWD, looks sporty.......comes in sedan, and hatchback.

STI model is an absolute beast.....yes they all look a little juvenile, but isn't that the purpose of these sporty hatchbacks.

Anyway, if your looking for fun, the STI would make the rest of these choices look silly.

Mileage is definitely the downer, but meets, or exceeds all other criteria.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I've been really happy with mine. It goes like stink, is very comfortable and a great daily driver. The fit and finish is very good and it's so much fun to drive. It also gets good mileage--19 around town, 27-28 on the highway. Not bad for a 265 hp turbo.

I can also get three bikes in the back with the seats folded down. Just remove the front wheels, stack the bikes sideways, and get some old blankets to put between everything so nothing rubs. Maybe not a very glamorous way to carry them, but after all the horror stories I've heard about roof racks I refuse to get one.

The only issue has been poor diagnostic service from the dealer. They completely mis-diagnosed a frozen rear shock and had me making the 40 mile round trip multiple times while they basically floundered around taking guesses. I should have just kept taking it to the Goodyear guy who has been so reliable for me for almost 20 years.

But that doesn't subtract from the fact that it's a really great daily and fun to drive car.

BBD

[Climb01742]

louis, you're right about the MPG for the GTI. i love driving my '09. surprisingly practical. but mileage has been disappointing.

i think where we (myself very included) go wrong is trying to find one vehicle that does a long list of things well. inevitably that leads to compromises.

could you find two used vehicles that add up to all that you want. like a used element or fit for practical and used mini or 3 series for zip+smiles?

[avalonracing]

BBD-

It is nice to see pics with cool New England weather when it is, 94ºF, humid and and a Code Orange air quality index down here. :crap:

BTW- Photoshop out that old cup in the bottom right of the image. ;)

[bobswire]

I haven't looked at cars in awhile or at least since I purchased my last one in 2003 but things are really looking up. I have a Ford Explorer (small 6) that has less than 40,000 and now that I'm retired I use it less and less.
Maybe once a week and on my Yosemite visits most times I get around by bike or public trans but some of those new autos sure pique my interest.
That Fiat is pretty cool and so it the Ford Fiesta.

[djg]

Louis -- you might really like to look at some of the minis. They can be more accommodating of bikes and gear than you might think, and if they're not beautiful, they do have a sort of funky cool look to them. Owners seem to be very happy with them.

For VW -- you might find better mileage and reliability if you move off the GTi, although that's a cool car in its way.

I wanted a particular car (M3) and went used (low miles -- terrible mileage but, then, I ride my bike to work nearly every day and don't put heavy miles on the car). I don't think you want the car I bought, but if there's something that appeals to you that's outside your budget, it's worth haunting the carmax web site, and others -- you might find something very clean coming off a lease or one owner with good records that's just much, much cheaper than new.

[BumbleBeeDave]

BBD-

It is nice to see pics with cool New England weather when it is, 94ºF, humid and and a Code Orange air quality index down here. :crap:

BTW- Photoshop out that old up in the bottom right of the image. ;)

. . . if you insist! :p

BBD

[dancinkozmo]

Alfa is owned by Fiat and Fiat "owns" Chrysler.

So you might get an Alfa in a year or two.

I doubt they are as fun to drive as a Mini Cooper which will fit a bike in the back with just the front wheel taken off.

I really like mine! I occasionally think the grass is greener and look at other cars, but there is nothing around now for that kind of price I would trade for.

chrysler is planning to offer a re-badged gullietta for 2012 :banana: :banana: :banana:

[SEABREEZE]

subaru impreza they keep ticking like a timex watch.hatch back and 4 cyl.
as far as Iam concerned best thing out of the far east

if you want action jackson get the wrx version boxer motor like porches dont expect good gas milage but a blast to drive.it to is a hatch back.also the sti almost a wrx but much lower in price

then you have the rest mazda 3 or the sports version also fun to drive

ford focus
saturn
kia rondo mini 4cyl and decent gas the most over room inside over the hatch back but still keep the vechile small also the rio5 hatch back i beleive there is a 100,000 mile warranty
honda civic
honda has sports version civic, but not sure they come in hatch back it requires high test lots of fun to drive
has a tweaked passat wagon,chipped lowered 18's audi a6 brakes,
would not recommend vw
audi offers a hatch back a3

i am with you Louis if alfa enters the usa market , i want one, let me refrase that, i will get one

check out the subaru impreza , fair price and reliable reliable reliabe, and good gas milage. not many think of the subaru.

rember all the texters out there, would not want to get hit by one in such a small vechile, wife in f350 hit by texter and the vechile was totalled sheriff said if she was in a small vechile she would of been killed. something to think about... **** happens

[AngryScientist]

dont throw the gti out of your short list. i drive 100 miles per day round trip in mine, and i've got over 80k reliable miles on the clock.

the latest gen of gti has the new and improved 2.0t engine. it won engine of the year several times over. direct injected gasoline engine, very torquey and powerfull, yet very efficient. i net around 32 - 33 mpg in mine. the latest 2.0t has a timing chain, and all (most) of the bugs worked out of it. i think its a fantastic engine.

bike fits in the back no problem. best 2 door "hot hatch" on the market right now. german engineered, and the cabin is very refined.

you'll regret a kia or hyundai, trust me.

[rphetteplace]

Subaru WRX would be a great choice. Several different models, reliable, hatchback (5 doors), AWD, looks sporty.......comes in sedan, and hatchback.

STI model is an absolute beast.....yes they all look a little juvenile, but isn't that the purpose of these sporty hatchbacks.

Anyway, if your looking for fun, the STI would make the rest of these choices look silly.

Mileage is definitely the downer, but meets, or exceeds all other criteria.

+1 on the STI love mine!

[SoCalSteve]

The "Top Gear" boys love the GTI as their "hot hatch" car. They also LOVE the Alfa Romeo and literally drool over it when they review it...

But, and this is a big one...They think the Alfa (even though its styled beautifully) will fall apart within the first 100 miles of ownership. I guess the reputation Alfa has as being reliable is horrible.

Not sure who owns them now, but didn't Fiat own them for many years?

Top Gear is the shiznit, BTW. Best show on TV by far (even if your not a gear head, which I happen to be).

Steve

If you've never heard of Top Gear, click here (http://www.topgear.com/uk/)

[dd74]

Diesel. If you can hold out for a couple more years, there will be a larger selection in The States.

Power, great fuel economy, and now that Audi and BMW are in the game, definite performance vehicles.

Even Porsche will be getting into the diesel world soon.

[dd74]

or...
http://www.crzforum.com/pictures/Honda/Spoon/spoon1.jpg
http://www.crzforum.com/pictures/Honda/Spoon/spoon2.jpg
...a hotted out Honda hybrid, courtesy of these people: http://www.spoonsports.us/

[-dustin]

Mini Clubman, perhaps?

I could fit my bike into my ex's Cooper easily enough (56cm frame), and the Clubman is a little longer. Drove around in an S version for a week. If I could do it over, I would've purchased one of those instead of my truck (my 3rd Tacoma).

[jhcakilmer]

+1 for Top Gear, one of the few shows worth watching.

But I find them more entertaining, than educational. To say they're "Euro Bias" would be the understatement of this young decade.

The Mazadas, Subarus, Hondas are better cars empirically (by the numbers), but they always settle back on the GTI, which is a great car, but by no means "heads" above the rest.


The "Top Gear" boys love the GTI as their "hot hatch" car. They also LOVE the Alfa Romeo and literally drool over it when they review it...

But, and this is a big one...They think the Alfa (even though its styled beautifully) will fall apart within the first 100 miles of ownership. I guess the reputation Alfa has as being reliable is horrible.

Not sure who owns them now, but didn't Fiat own them for many years?

Top Gear is the shiznit, BTW. Best show on TV by far (even if your not a gear head, which I happen to be).

Steve

If you've never heard of Top Gear, click here (http://www.topgear.com/uk/)

[Louis]

Re: Hybrids

Given the choice between say a 35 mpg gas/diesel and a 42 mpg hybrid, I think I'd go with the gas powered. I think the hybrid is a stop-gap design, not a a long-term solution.

The CR-Z looks like a nifty car, but a CRX would be even better.

[avalonracing]

+1 for Top Gear, one of the few shows worth watching.

The Mazadas, Subarus, Hondas are better cars empirically (by the numbers), but they always settle back on the GTI

That's because they don't have to take the GTI into the shop every month.

[JeffS]

Re: Hybrids

Given the choice between say a 35 mpg gas/diesel and a 42 mpg hybrid, I think I'd go with the gas powered. I think the hybrid is a stop-gap design, not a a long-term solution.

The CR-Z looks like a nifty car, but a CRX would be even better.


They completely screwed up with the CRZ.

An expensive remake with worse performance and gas mileage than the originals. I refuse to buy a hybrid though so I'm biased from the start.

[AngryScientist]

hot hatch love...
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af153/aero_dynamic8/Nikon014.jpg

[tkbike]

O.K. us "normal sized guys", about 6' 3" with 61 cm bikes don't fit real well in Mazda 3 sized cars, need a shoe horn to get in, no matter what the litature says. What do you reccomend for us, I am leaning toward the Suby Outback wagon, any better sugestions?

[TimmyB]

another vote for a hatchback subie, but wait until this badboy comes out:
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/subaru-impreza-sedan-wrx_100308795_l.jpg
2011 wrx goes widebody. Or if you want an extra 40hp go STI.

I wish I had had the extra money to get a wrx instead of my outback sport :crap: It's a good car don't get me wrong, but like most cars without a turbo, it's not amazingly exciting to drive. WRX's / STI's on the other hand have never failed to make me smile. Maybe next year I'll be able to do the tradein.

[SEABREEZE]

O.K. us "normal sized guys", about 6' 3" with 61 cm bikes don't fit real well in Mazda 3 sized cars, need a shoe horn to get in, no matter what the litature says. What do you reccomend for us, I am leaning toward the Suby Outback wagon, any better sugestions?

check out the forester, you can get it turbo charged, fun to drive for a suv. Has triptronic. Not to mention pleny of room in the rear for our bikes

Son just came back from Colarado, says everyone is driving a subaru...

[jlyon]

O.K. us "normal sized guys", about 6' 3" with 61 cm bikes don't fit real well in Mazda 3 sized cars, need a shoe horn to get in, no matter what the litature says. What do you reccomend for us, I am leaning toward the Suby Outback wagon, any better sugestions?


I like the Subaru Forester or the Subaru Legacy if you want a sedan with a big trunk. You would still need to take the front wheel off but a 61cm bike should fit.

[dd74]

I'd still go diesel. This Jetta TDI Special Edition is based on the Jetta TDI race cars.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto-shows/pimp-mein-auto-volkswagen-cc-eco-performance-concept-shines-at-vws-sema-stand/10763656+cr1+re0+ar1/volkswagen-jetta-tdi-street-edition.jpg

http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/Volkswagen-Jetta-TDI-Cup-2010.jpg

To show how efficient the race cars are, they're allowed only two tanks of diesel fuel for the entire 10-race series.

[SEABREEZE]

I'd still go diesel. This Jetta TDI Special Edition is based on the Jetta TDI race cars.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto-shows/pimp-mein-auto-volkswagen-cc-eco-performance-concept-shines-at-vws-sema-stand/10763656+cr1+re0+ar1/volkswagen-jetta-tdi-street-edition.jpg

http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/Volkswagen-Jetta-TDI-Cup-2010.jpg

To show how efficient the race cars are, they're allowed only two tanks of diesel fuel for the entire 10-race series.

Is the TDI SPECIAL ADDITION availble presently, whats the projected gas milage city/highway

[jhcakilmer]

+1 for Forester, or along those lines Toyota Rav4, or Honda CRV. They all have similar interior space, and all of them drive nice.....Forester is probably the most "car-like" of the three, but comes down to personal preference.

The BMW X3 is probably the nicest small SUV/cross-over (IMO) out there. Absolutely, would be my pick, for "driving fun". Space is about the same as the others. Just drive one, in manual ofcourse!


check out the forester, you can get it turbo charged, fun to drive for a suv. Has triptronic. Not to mention pleny of room in the rear for our bikes

Son just came back from Colarado, says everyone is driving a subaru...

[johnnymossville]

Chevy Equinox. great mileage, looks, utility.

[Volant]

Chevy Equinox. great mileage, looks, utility.

Agree with statement AND that it would meet the OP's requirement of spending a lot of money...on repairs. My brother just offloaded his lemon of an Equinox after 1 year and over a dozen times in the shop. Fortunately for him, it was under warranty. Of course, many people will have the opposite experience and never have a problem. I've heard the same with many cars already listed. YMMV.
Question: why is it that with some cars you can just get one that is 'near perfect' and others have nothing but problems? My '99 Montero was the same as the OP's Integra. If they still made the model (similar to the '99 with a full ladder frame) I would've bought another.

[johnnymossville]

Agree with statement AND that it would meet the OP's requirement of spending a lot of money...on repairs. My brother just offloaded his lemon of an Equinox after 1 year and over a dozen times in the shop. Fortunately for him, it was under warranty. Of course, many people will have the opposite experience and never have a problem. I've heard the same with many cars already listed. YMMV.
Question: why is it that with some cars you can just get one that is 'near perfect' and others have nothing but problems? My '99 Montero was the same as the OP's Integra. If they still made the model (similar to the '99 with a full ladder frame) I would've bought another.

LOL. It is something isn't it? People's experiences with cars vary. My brother's mini cooper S was nothing but problems. He loved the car, but reliability wasn't a strong point. Nearly every problem a car could have that car had it.

[zap]

VW's reliability has improved recently and the Mazda Speed 3 is nice too. I think Serotta's very own zebra has a Speed 3.

Spent some time in my dads vw diesel last week. Nice car with no quality issue's. He's getting 45 mpg in mixed driving but god he drives slow, lots of neutral coasting and wide turns to keep the speed up.

[pjm]

'99 Lumina with a roof rack, baby! Thats how I roll. Just put new rubber on it!

[snah]

Lots of good suggestions and I may have missed this somewhere, but the Civic Si Coupe would meet most, if not all the requirements. Good gas mileage, 2 doors, reliable, fun to drive, faster that the Acura and with rear seat folded down, easily holds the bike.

[Ozz]

chrysler is planning to offer a re-badged gullietta for 2012 :banana: :banana: :banana:
If they want to sell any, they should not re-badge them.... :cool:

[fourflys]

If they want to sell any, they should not re-badge them.... :cool:

wasn't Chevy/GM dealers the source for the Alfa Spiders back in the 80's as well?

Yes, cars are a funny thing... I had a '99 Chevy Blazer and will NEVER buy another GM product in the forseeable future... I know in my head that there are good GM vehicles, but I just can't forget all the issues I had with mine...

On the other hand, I LOVE my '06 Mercedes C230! (sedan with a roof rack) I'm not sure how new the OP is looking for, but they did make the C230 coupe with the supercharged engine... (and it had a hatch!) I've owned my share of foreign and domestic cars and NOTHING I've had compares to the quality of my Benz... (and they're not as expensive as you'd think)

not mine, but a nice example...
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6400/snv32222we6.jpg

[Ken Robb]

wasn't Chevy/GM dealers the source for the Alfa Spiders back in the 80's as well?


On the other hand, I LOVE my '06 Mercedes C230! (sedan with a roof rack)
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6400/snv32222we6.jpg

a LOT of OLDER people like those cars. :)

[avalonracing]

I have a C230 Kompressor (supercharged 4). And I do love it. I didn't buy the hatch though as I thought that the back of the car was a bit of a styling mess. Because of the lack of the popularity in the US you can probably get a pretty nice deal on one. Then again I only get about 24mph with it (let's just say I don't exactly try to stretch the fuel economy)

The problem is the my sedan does not make a good bike car that's the main reason that I got the 4Runner listed in my earlier post.

[fourflys]

I have a C230 Kompressor (supercharged 4). And I do love it. I didn't buy the hatch though as I thought that the back of the car was a bit of a styling mess. Because of the lack of the popularity in the US you can probably get a pretty nice deal on one. Then again I only get about 24mph with it (let's just say I don't exactly try to stretch the fuel economy)

The problem is the my sedan does not make a good bike car that's the main reason that I got the 4Runner listed in my earlier post.

I guess it depends on how you want to carry the bike... I agree, unless you have a rook rack the C230 sedan isn't a good bike car... The hatchback on the other hand might be great depending on how much room is in the back...

True on the milage, I have the '06 6 cylinder and if I set the cruise at 71mph I can get about 26 mpg on my 20 mile commute to work... I could do better with a prius or that new Honda Prius copy, but I like the looks of my car a bit better... ;)

Ken- Are you calling me old, just because I didn't get a Bimmer? :p

[54ny77]

Toyota RAV4.

Inexpensive (relatively--it depends on the model), huge room in the back, good mileage, and boring (in a good way).

[Ralph]

I've had some fairly expensive nice cars thru the years, some called drivers vehicles, and my wife still likes a nice sedan with all the gadgets and features. I've also built up 600-700 HP muscle cars, I've had all kinds of vehicles.

But my favorite all time vehicle for my use is one I bought new recently, and it is by far the cheapest vehicle I have ever bought since college days, and by far the best bike hauling machine there is if traveling solo or one other person. My 2010 Honda Element. I prefer this over a new 5 series sedan....for my use. I admit..we still have a nice sedan and a Honda Accord around the house. So when the Element is a little too "funky" for something, I have other vehicles to drive.

[C5 Snowboarder]

My 2 cents--- get an X5 BMW with the V-8 --- nicest Auto outthere. Reliable- fast -- handling is supberb... takes 2-3 bikes inside when seat is folded down..

Loving it now for 5 years... Greatttttt car.

[Louis]

--- get an X5 BMW with the V-8 --- nicest Auto outthere. Reliable- fast -- handling is supberb... takes 2-3 bikes inside when seat is folded down..

I won't even ask about the gas mileage on that thing, but I'm guessing that it's not above 30 mpg highway...

I drive 35 miles to work each way (I live way out in the boonies so I can have nice rides out my front door) so I've decided to limit myself to vehicles that get 30 mpg highway minimum.

[C5 Snowboarder]

I won't even ask about the gas mileage on that thing, but I'm guessing that it's not above 30 mpg highway...

I drive 35 miles to work each way (I live way out in the boonies so I can have nice rides out my front door) so I've decided to limit myself to vehicles that get 30 mpg highway minimum.

Well-- it is not 30 but it is like taking a vacation going to work and taking a vacation when you leave work .. when you drive the X5 V-8 ( the in line 6 sucks big time)

[rounder]

I saw a green Alpha GTV driving around yesterday. It didn't look like much of a bike transporter, but it was really pretty. If all you have to haul is one bike, then maybe an Audi A3 is a good way to go. I have two A4s with the 4 cyl turbo engines. No problems so far and pretty good mpg, one car is 10 years old and has 130 k. They are not good for hauling bikes inside, but they are pretty nice and do not cost so much as nice cars go. The A3 is basically the same car, but a few 000 less. Most of my rides leave from my house, so how to carry the bike is not much of an issue.

[Louis]

maybe an Audi A3 is a good way to go.

Is the 3-dr available in the US?

The last time I checked ('09 model year) I'm pretty sure all they were offering was the 5-dr.

[dd74]

Well-- it is not 30 but it is like taking a vacation going to work and taking a vacation when you leave work .. when you drive the X5 V-8 ( the in line 6 sucks big time)
Nice avatar. What sort of mileage does that get? And can it carry a bike? :)

[dd74]

Is the TDI SPECIAL ADDITION availble presently, whats the projected gas milage city/highway
The Special "Edition" not Addition (LOL!) is supposedly available, but don't count on finding one. Here in L.A., the diesel Jetta and diesel Jetta Sportswagen is the hottest car around. People wait 6 mos. for theirs. A Ferrari takes less time.

Mileage, btw, should be the same or a tad less because of the bling (i.e. the larger wheel/tire package). I think the diesel Jetta gets about 40 mpg., though I've heard of people getting closer to 50 mpg. One of the big car magazines, Motor Trend I think it was, said the diesel Jetta gets better fuel mileage than the Prius, but has enough torque to pull out the Prius' headlights. :D

[dd74]

And just in case one had any doubts about a diesel's ability, look at what a V10 turbo diesel VW can do:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/b747/n9747p-1.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/11/221106-b-vw.jpg
http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/11/vw1.jpg
VW has also campaigned this vehicle in rallies and up Pikes Peak, where it had a remarkably fast time for what is regarded as an SUV.

Again, if a person can find one, these are very pricey even used. But the inline-six turbo diesel is far less money, and actually more economically friendly. The V10 is pretty much a monster.

[victoryfactory]

I love my 09 Subaru Forester.
Plenty fast with the turbo
great cargo room for my bike and camping gear
Conservative but pleasing looks
Huge sunroof
Super comfortable front seats for long drives
No over done electronic crap like push button start
Good off road and in snow
high ground clearance (9.5")
Mileage is around 21 in town and 23-24 on highway @ 70-80 mph
if you keep it around 60-65 mph you can get 25mpg with the turbo!

VF

[AngryScientist]

its funny how car threads always take the route of "i have x car, you should too"

the OP was looking for a small, sporty coupe or hatchback that gets good gas mileage.

I'm sure you all mean well, but foresters, rav-4's and chevy equinoxs are NOT fun, small sporty cars like the OP's integra.

just an observation...

[rwsaunders]

Here you go, Louis. The best car research site out there....look at the (TCO) true cost to own index if you're trying to limit the emotional factor.

http://www.edmunds.com

[johnnymossville]

its funny how car threads always take the route of "i have x car, you should too"

the OP was looking for a small, sporty coupe or hatchback that gets good gas mileage.

I'm sure you all mean well, but foresters, rav-4's and chevy equinoxs are NOT fun, small sporty cars like the OP's integra.

just an observation...

911 then?

[rounder]

Is the 3-dr available in the US?

The last time I checked ('09 model year) I'm pretty sure all they were offering was the 5-dr.

I just checked at Audi USA and it is only available in 5-door.

[batman1425]

I've got an Audi A3 5-door and its great for bike transport. With the bench out and the seats down I can fit 2 bikes in the back with gear, wheels and trainers no problem. WIth less other stuff, I can fit 3 bikes easily. Gas milage is good too, around 30mpg highway. The 4cyl turbo with the 6 speed is a blast to drive too! At first I wanted the 3-door, but now that I have the 5, I'm glad I have it. Its nice to have those extra doors when transporting people.

[fourflys]

its funny how car threads always take the route of "i have x car, you should too"

the OP was looking for a small, sporty coupe or hatchback that gets good gas mileage.

I'm sure you all mean well, but foresters, rav-4's and chevy equinoxs are NOT fun, small sporty cars like the OP's integra.

just an observation...

come on, you know this is the internet and it's my job to enforce my will on others! :D

good reminder, though...

[zap]

Is the 3-dr available in the US?

The last time I checked ('09 model year) I'm pretty sure all they were offering was the 5-dr.

A3 is a fancy vw golf. A good buddy of mine has an a3 and loves it.

Like bikes, take one for a spin.

Louis, blokes steal your turf yet?

[Louis]

Louis, blokes steal your turf yet?

Not yet. I told the owner / developer that I was not interested at any price and haven't heard back from him since. I doubt that that's the end of the story...

[Charles M]

its funny how car threads always take the route of "i have x car, you should too"

the OP was looking for a small, sporty coupe or hatchback that gets good gas mileage.

I'm sure you all mean well, but foresters, rav-4's and chevy equinoxs are NOT fun, small sporty cars like the OP's integra.

just an observation...


BMW Z4 Coupe.

Fits a bike in the back and it qualifies as sporty and fun and highway is close to 30...

The 335 is also a 2 door coupe that fits the bill and will haul a bike AND a kid in a child seat in back (with the 60-40 rear folded).


Both can be had for a pretty damn good price, certified pre-owned right now...





It's a shame the Porsche Cayman S didn't have a slightly different rear design. It's inches from taking a bike in the hatch area... GODAMNIT!

[don'TreadOnMe]

acura tsx wagon in a couple of months:
http://www.acura.com/FutureVehiclesTSX.aspx#/section1

[fourflys]

BMW Z4 Coupe.

The 335

Both can be had for a pretty damn good price, certified pre-owned right now...



good price on a 335 or Z4 is debatable on your definition (or the OP's) of "good price"....

[fourflys]

acura tsx wagon in a couple of months:
http://www.acura.com/FutureVehiclesTSX.aspx#/section1

looks nice from the side, I wonder what the grill looks like? That's my major issue with Acuras right now, the front is butt ugly IMHO...

[Seramount]

well, you can't buy one new since they discontinued it, but the Acura RSX meets your description.

reliable as the sun coming up, good looking, mileage, hatchback, blah blah...

I went from a 94 Integra to a 06 RSX Type-S. Black on black leather, got the last one available in a six-state sales region.

definite upgrade in performance, handling, braking. the sounds the engine makes at 8200 rpm are pretty intoxicating...

economical too. I don't have a light right foot and still knock out 25 mpg in town and 33-35 hiway (at 80+ mph).

luff my wheels.

[victoryfactory]

its funny how car threads always take the route of "i have x car, you should too"

the OP was looking for a small, sporty coupe or hatchback that gets good gas mileage.

I'm sure you all mean well, but foresters, rav-4's and chevy equinoxs are NOT fun, small sporty cars like the OP's integra.

just an observation...

To an old man like me, A Forester is a sports car,
as in carrying my sports junk around in it.

"real" sports cars are IMO, just for driving.

VF

[djg]

good price on a 335 or Z4 is debatable on your definition (or the OP's) of "good price"....

Well, that goes for any suggestion. A stock mini cooper (non S) is an inexpensive car for some and a hopeless extravagance for others. As for the beemers, there are lots of these around with relatively low miles (20 or 30 k or so), relatively complete records, and prices that are much, much lower than new car prices for those cars. Certainly a used 3 series, clean and low miles, can be had for the price of many new vehicles that are being suggested or less. Of course, one could say the same about a used GTi or Subaru and many don't want a used car. But the OP expressed an interest in sporty cars, even including 2 seaters, and it does seem that there's a significant population of used sporty cars that were never daily drivers -- might be a lot easier to find a selection of clean 2006 z4s with 25k miles than clean 2006 Subaru Forresters with 25k miles.

[fourflys]

Well, that goes for any suggestion. A stock mini cooper (non S) is an inexpensive car for some and a hopeless extravagance for others. As for the beemers, there are lots of these around with relatively low miles (20 or 30 k or so), relatively complete records, and prices that are much, much lower than new car prices for those cars. Certainly a used 3 series, clean and low miles, can be had for the price of many new vehicles that are being suggested or less. Of course, one could say the same about a used GTi or Subaru and many don't want a used car. But the OP expressed an interest in sporty cars, even including 2 seaters, and it does seem that there's a significant population of used sporty cars that were never daily drivers -- might be a lot easier to find a selection of clean 2006 z4s with 25k miles than clean 2006 Subaru Forresters with 25k miles.

agreed... the OP never really did give us a dollar figure, so you never know...

I know for me, I just can't get myself to have a car payment over $400 a month so that narrows my choices... but I did manage to find a super clean '06 C230 for less than that last fall, so I'm happy! I'll never buy a brand new car again, just doesn't make sense for me...

[SEABREEZE]

And just in case one had any doubts about a diesel's ability, look at what a V10 turbo diesel VW can do:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/b747/n9747p-1.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/11/221106-b-vw.jpg
http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/11/vw1.jpg
VW has also campaigned this vehicle in rallies and up Pikes Peak, where it had a remarkably fast time for what is regarded as an SUV.

Again, if a person can find one, these are very pricey even used. But the inline-six turbo diesel is far less money, and actually more economically friendly. The V10 is pretty much a monster.

Family member was just at pikes peak last week, said this week they were going to have racing up to the summit . Family member said the scarest road he has ever been on. He said when they race up there wheels are just about off the payment and a long fall down the mt, if it happens.

He said it took them about 40 minutes to climb to summit, the racers do it in 10 minutes.

[SEABREEZE]

I love my 09 Subaru Forester.
Plenty fast with the turbo
great cargo room for my bike and camping gear
Conservative but pleasing looks
Huge sunroof
Super comfortable front seats for long drives
No over done electronic crap like push button start
Good off road and in snow
high ground clearance (9.5")
Mileage is around 21 in town and 23-24 on highway @ 70-80 mph
if you keep it around 60-65 mph you can get 25mpg with the turbo!

VF

Sure dont look like queens, your photo is a perfect place for the forester to shine.
Your description of the forester is right on. Cant beat the turbo, umungus sunroof, triptronic shift, and fun to drive BECAUSE OF THE TURBO...

[nahtnoj]

acura tsx wagon in a couple of months:
http://www.acura.com/FutureVehiclesTSX.aspx#/section1

Could they have made the rear shock towers intrude into the cargo area any more?

http://www.acura.com/FutureVehiclesTSX.aspx#/section6_7

Nice enough car otherwise...

[michael white]

no that's what acura does. Same thing with Integra, it has double wishbone front and back, which no one else did because 1: too expensive and 2: too intrusive, but which are what made it one of the best fwd handlers ever made.

[SoCalSteve]

And just in case one had any doubts about a diesel's ability, look at what a V10 turbo diesel VW can do:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/b747/n9747p-1.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/11/221106-b-vw.jpg
http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/11/vw1.jpg
VW has also campaigned this vehicle in rallies and up Pikes Peak, where it had a remarkably fast time for what is regarded as an SUV.

Again, if a person can find one, these are very pricey even used. But the inline-six turbo diesel is far less money, and actually more economically friendly. The V10 is pretty much a monster.

I have a Touerag (non-diesel version) and it looks NOTHING like that! Thank G@d, as it would be a bitch to get that in my garage...

[jasond]

I have a Subaru WRX and it's very sporty. Most cars on the road can't keep up to it. However I find that the build quality is very low. You'll pay mid 25 to low 30's depending on what you would like and you don't get much for it. The body is like a tin can, very thin. You can here a lot of road noise and if you look at the door the wrong way it might just get a ding. The stereo is of low quality, sounds very flat. Almost everything has that plastic look to it where at least VW tries to hide it. Mine has developed some sort of creaking noise in the back when I go over small bumps.

I will say I had a lot of fun driving it in the winter. I put snows on it (the WRX model comes with summer tires) and nothing could leave the line at a stop light like I could. I could plow through snow very easily.

I still enjoy driving it however after a year of owning it I am looking for my next car already. Sort of leaning towards going back to VW however I will wait at least another year.

J

[retrogrouchy]

good price on a 335 or Z4 is debatable on your definition (or the OP's) of "good price"....

Dunno. That (previous-generation?) twin-turbo 300 HP 335i is damn gorgeous, performs amazingly well, gets fabulous fuel economy, is extremely well-built, has great resale value, and a very clean CPO one would probably cost about what a lot of new very crappy cars cost. Let someone else take the huge depreciation hit, I say....

[zap]

Which is it. Great resale value or huge depreciation hit.

[pjm]

Dunno. That (previous-generation?) twin-turbo 300 HP 335i is damn gorgeous, performs amazingly well, gets fabulous fuel economy, is extremely well-built, has great resale value, and a very clean CPO one would probably cost about what a lot of new very crappy cars cost. Let someone else take the huge depreciation hit, I say....
A typical CPO BMW is usually a lease turn-in which has been maintained "by the book." This means 15,000 mile oil change intervals. If you feel comfortable with so few oil changes, especially on that hot running twin-turbo engine, than go for it. I wouldn't go near one, even with the base engine. The twin-turbo has had a rash of fuel pump problems, too.

[retrogrouchy]

A typical CPO BMW is usually a lease turn-in which has been maintained "by the book." This means 15,000 mile oil change intervals. If you feel comfortable with so few oil changes, especially on that hot running twin-turbo engine, than (sic) go for it. I wouldn't go near one, even with the base engine. The twin-turbo has had a rash of fuel pump problems, too.

It was more like 10,000 mile intervals on my M3. And that's synthetic oil, lots of it, in a large sump, so it didn't bother me one bit. Five years of ownership, and my only non-warranty expenses were one set of tires, and a few extra fluid changes, as I recall. Zero unscheduled visits. Fabulous resale value, too! But I digress...

[retrogrouchy]

Which is it. Great resale value or huge depreciation hit.

Uh, if you buy it used, then you get a great resale value (later) because you let some other schmoe take the non-trivial initial depreciation hit. Got it?

[AngryScientist]

A typical CPO BMW is usually a lease turn-in which has been maintained "by the book." This means 15,000 mile oil change intervals. If you feel comfortable with so few oil changes, especially on that hot running twin-turbo engine, than go for it. I wouldn't go near one, even with the base engine. The twin-turbo has had a rash of fuel pump problems, too.


lease turn-ins in general scare the hell out of me. a few family members lease audi's regularly. at lease turn-in time (generally), no one asks for maintenance records at all! you just turn the old car in and get a new one, in and out in about 1/2 hour.

where's the motivation of the leasee to do ANY mainenance? a typical lease is 10k a year for three years. with synthetic oil, most cars wont have a problem running for 30k without an oil change, these problems will show up much later as accelerated engine wear...

of course this isnt everyone, but as far as i can tell, getting an off-lease car gives you about zero assurance that the car has been taken care of.

with regard to oil change schedule - 15k is simply too much, synthetic oil or not. bmw revised the change interval when they started doing "free maintenance" to save themselves $$.

i do all of my own maint. and subscribe to 8k change intervals.

[djg]

lease turn-ins in general scare the hell out of me. a few family members lease audi's regularly. at lease turn-in time (generally), no one asks for maintenance records at all! you just turn the old car in and get a new one, in and out in about 1/2 hour.

where's the motivation of the leasee to do ANY mainenance? a typical lease is 10k a year for three years. with synthetic oil, most cars wont have a problem running for 30k without an oil change, these problems will show up much later as accelerated engine wear...

of course this isnt everyone, but as far as i can tell, getting an off-lease car gives you about zero assurance that the car has been taken care of.

with regard to oil change schedule - 15k is simply too much, synthetic oil or not. bmw revised the change interval when they started doing "free maintenance" to save themselves $$.

i do all of my own maint. and subscribe to 8k change intervals.

I dunno. Sometimes they have the maintenance records and sometimes they're more fastidious than you might think. You're right that it can otherwise be a shot in the dark, but at least with a lease there's some documentation of the scheduled maintenance, which you might or might not have with another used car (obviously, it's not crazy to be the type of person who wants documentation, or a serious inspection of the innards, or both).

My new-to-me M3 was a used one-owner car, not a lease. But a prior 3 series about 10 years ago came off a lease and was great. Maybe I would have seen signs of trouble if I'd kept it more than 2 years (didn't work well with baby twins, and a third kid) but the car was great while I had it.

[fourflys]

I dunno. Sometimes they have the maintenance records and sometimes they're more fastidious than you might think. You're right that it can otherwise be a shot in the dark, but at least with a lease there's some documentation of the scheduled maintenance, which you might or might not have with another used car (obviously, it's not crazy to be the type of person who wants documentation, or a serious inspection of the innards, or both).

My new-to-me M3 was a used one-owner car, not a lease. But a prior 3 series about 10 years ago came off a lease and was great. Maybe I would have seen signs of trouble if I'd kept it more than 2 years (didn't work well with baby twins, and a third kid) but the car was great while I had it.

My Benz had been a lease, however it had documented service history from an MB dealer... I've not got over 60k on her and not a problem... but, as with any used car, there's always a chance you're taking...

[SoCalSteve]

My 2007 Carrara 911 Coupe was a lease return. It had only 16,500 miles after 3 years of use. A complete set of records (Porsche is really good at that) and it is Certified Pre-Owned, which means the warranty is extended an extra 2 years through Porsche themselves.

For Porsche to do a CPO, they completely inspect the car from top to bottom and do all required maintenance and servicing. My car happened to need new tires, so Porsche paid the bill for a brand new set of 4.

So, lease returns are NOT necessarily a bad thing, just depends on the car and the company you are dealing with.

[AngryScientist]

So, lease returns are NOT necessarily a bad thing, just depends on the car and the company you are dealing with.

yup, i agree with that. its really on a case by case basis.

[djg21]

My 2007 Carrara 911 Coupe was a lease return. It had only 16,500 miles after 3 years of use. A complete set of records (Porsche is really good at that) and it is Certified Pre-Owned, which means the warranty is extended an extra 2 years through Porsche themselves.

For Porsche to do a CPO, they completely inspect the car from top to bottom and do all required maintenance and servicing. My car happened to need new tires, so Porsche paid the bill for a brand new set of 4.

So, lease returns are NOT necessarily a bad thing, just depends on the car and the company you are dealing with.


I always buy CPO. I currently have an Audi Allroad I purchased with 19K miles (it now has 110k), and a TT I picked up with 20K (now at 63K). The cars were not even broken in when I got them, and have been flawless. The Allroad had even been chipped by the original owner which was a nice plus (which made it easy for me to convince my wife that I needed onein the TT too!)

If you are looking at "luxury" cars, CPO is great, as those cars are frequently leased rather than purchased. I'm leary of CPO when looking for other types of cars that are relatively less expensive when purchased new, as those cars are not typically leased in the first instance. If they appear on a sales lot after only a year two, there may be a good reason.

[Ken Robb]

I agree that "maintained by the book" is now more a negative than a positive for cars that we want to drive more than 100,000 miles. OTOH, a really low mileage (under 20,000 miles) car can't have been damaged much by such a maintenance schedule.

As for turning in lease cars with no paper maintenance records I know that any BMW dealer can see a record of all work performed at any dealer on any BMW so they don't need any paper records from the lessee/seller. If work was done at independent shops good paper records would be needed.

[AngryScientist]

I always buy CPO. I currently have an Audi Allroad I purchased with 19K miles (it now has 110k), and a TT I picked up with 20K (now at 63K). The cars were not even broken in when I got them, and have been flawless. The Allroad had even been chipped by the original owner which was a nice plus (which made it easy for me to convince my wife that I needed onein the TT too!)

If you are looking at "luxury" cars, CPO is great, as those cars are frequently leased rather than purchased. I'm leary of CPO when looking for other types of cars that are relatively less expensive when purchased new, as those cars are not typically leased in the first instance. If they appear on a sales lot after only a year two, there may be a good reason.

i'm not disagreeing with you, as i mentioned, on a case by case basis, CPO cars can be a great value, but i dont think i would ever buy a chipped car, i'm surprised the dealer even certified it if it was chipped. that essentially means the car is running outside the parameters originally intended for the engine to run in (assuming it is an aftermarket manufacturers chip). generally chipping a leased car is a no-no when you go to turn them in.

[Ken Robb]

i'm not disagreeing with you, as i mentioned, on a case by case basis, CPO cars can be a great value, but i dont think i would ever buy a chipped car, i'm surprised the dealer even certified it if it was chipped. that essentially means the car is running outside the parameters originally intended for the engine to run in (assuming it is an aftermarket manufacturers chip). generally chipping a leased car is a no-no when you go to turn them in.

True in some cases, but FWIW BMW cars with Dinan chips/mods are still eligible for warranty. I don't know about other brands. I would probably pass on a chipped car figuring it hadn't been driven by a little old lady. :)

[mcteague]

You guys keep wanting to put me in a station wagon. Next thing you know, I'll be driving a hearse. :p

(Some kid in the neighborhood used to have one a few years ago. Plenty of room in back for the bike.)
Station Wagons just make sense IMO. Maybe that's why the US rarely imports them while Europe has many from which to choose. You get the handling of a car instead of a truck but lots of storage space. And a roof that does not require a ladder to access.

I currently drive a 2004 Subaru Outback but the new model is getting into SUV size and ponderousness. VW has a nice wagon but they lack the reliability of the cars from the land of the rising sun.

Station wagons used to be the "Mom" car, then vans and now SUVs. Hopefully wagons will make a comeback.

Tim

[snah]

Could also consider the Scion TC. Haven't driven one myself, but have heard great things. Don't know about the bike, but it's a hatchback and 2 doors.

[snah]

One other, reliability may be an issue with Audi, depending on who you talk to, but there's also the A5, slick looking coupe.

[fourflys]

I agree that "maintained by the book" is now more a negative than a positive for cars that we want to drive more than 100,000 miles. OTOH, a really low mileage (under 20,000 miles) car can't have been damaged much by such a maintenance schedule.

As for turning in lease cars with no paper maintenance records I know that any BMW dealer can see a record of all work performed at any dealer on any BMW so they don't need any paper records from the lessee/seller. If work was done at independent shops good paper records would be needed.

Ken, I would agree with your statement in regards to manufacturers like BMW who have a "no cost" maintenance program... when it comes to cars like a Mercedes, the dealer stands to make LESS money with a 12k mile service like on my C230... where would be the incentive for MB unless that's truely what the engine is designed for? (good marketing?) Now, having said that, if you're tracking your car on a regular basis then the recommended maintenance goes right out the window...

I know your history with cars and don't doubt what you say about BMW's, I just don't think that holds true for all makes...

[nahtnoj]

Station Wagons just make sense IMO.
Tim

I drive a 1994 Volvo 945T because there is no viable replacement. 237K and still running strong. Is it so hard for someone to make a spacious, inexpensive car that isn't putting the power to the road through the wrong set of tires?

[fourflys]

one car I completly forgot about is the Mazda RX-8... that's a HOT car and I love the suicide rear doors! I'd have to try it with a bike though...

http://www.ssip.net/upload/mazda-rx8-side-3_95.jpg

[fourflys]

I drive a 1994 Volvo 945T because there is no viable replacement. 237K and still running strong. Is it so hard for someone to make a spacious, inexpensive car that isn't putting the power to the road through the wrong set of tires?

+ 100!

[cp43]

I'd vote for keeping the Integra at least another year. There's nothing magic about 200K miles that means it's going to break all of a sudden. If you can't find a new car you'll like as much, stick with the one you have, that you do like.

FWIW, my plan for my '92 Corolla is to keep it until my mechanic refuses to fix it anymore, or until it rusts away.

Chris

[Louis]

Station Wagons just make sense IMO. Maybe that's why the US rarely imports them while Europe has many from which to choose. You get the handling of a car instead of a truck but lots of storage space. And a roof that does not require a ladder to access.

Agreed, but for me I'm willing to trade a bit of the size for the fun of the hatchback. In all the years during which I've owned the Integra (the last 6 of which as a home owner with the cargo requirements that implies - plywood, pipes, mulch, etc) only three times have I not been able to put what I need in the car. And one of those times was when I was picking up a 550 gallon water tank (already documented on this forum) that would not have fit in any of the vehicles we're discussing here. In those cases I just used the "rent a truck" option at Lowes and payed a nominal fee.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=23578&stc=1

[Charles M]

Dunno. That (previous-generation?) twin-turbo 300 HP 335i is damn gorgeous, performs amazingly well, gets fabulous fuel economy, is extremely well-built, has great resale value, and a very clean CPO one would probably cost about what a lot of new very crappy cars cost. Let someone else take the huge depreciation hit, I say....


That's exactly what I did... White, FULL loaded 40% off new sticker w/14,000 miles (and full CPO warranty). Did the same thing with the M coupe... 40% off sticker with 18000 miles on and CPO.


Both were had for under 40k$...


My 2007 Carrara 911 Coupe was a lease return. It had only 16,500 miles after 3 years of use. A complete set of records (Porsche is really good at that) and it is Certified Pre-Owned, which means the warranty is extended an extra 2 years through Porsche themselves.

For Porsche to do a CPO, they completely inspect the car from top to bottom and do all required maintenance and servicing. My car happened to need new tires, so Porsche paid the bill for a brand new set of 4.

So, lease returns are NOT necessarily a bad thing, just depends on the car and the company you are dealing with.


Which is why I was asking you today how a bike fit in a 911...

Have an extremely nice 07 Carrera S Cabrio (Trade rather than Lease roll) that is calling me...


LOUDLY.

[michael white]

It would be better for me (and my Integra) if you kept your Integra another year. Less peer pressure to deal with.

[Louis]

It would be better for me (and my Integra) if you kept your Integra another year. Less peer pressure to deal with.

Isn't the Audi TT a hatchback? ;)

[retrogrouchy]

I agree that "maintained by the book" is now more a negative than a positive for cars that we want to drive more than 100,000 miles. OTOH, a really low mileage (under 20,000 miles) car can't have been damaged much by such a maintenance schedule.

As for turning in lease cars with no paper maintenance records I know that any BMW dealer can see a record of all work performed at any dealer on any BMW so they don't need any paper records from the lessee/seller. If work was done at independent shops good paper records would be needed.

Correct.

I bought a CPO four-year-old 1999 BMW 740iL just over seven years ago (on eBay!), with 50K miles on it. Two previous lessees, which might sound a bit dodgy at first blush, but it had spotlessly clean Carfax / BMW histories. I paid one-third of sticker, got another 50K / three years (IIRC) of warranty. I am still driving it. The only real issue happened on day one - the radiator leaked. Replaced for the $75 deductible at my dealer, which is 2 miles from my home. When the service writer checked it in that first time (actually, it's never been back to the dealership since then, now that I think about it; only routine stuff / tires since then), he took his clipboard and did his walk-around to note any existing cosmetic damage (SOP so they don't get 'surprises' later). He found NONE, and so noted. IMO the e38 'L' is still one of the finest cars BMW ever made. NBA-sized legroom in the back, 0-60 in about 6.9 sec., 20 mpg in the real world without any special effort (about 24 on the highway), top speed of about 155 (not that I've ever gone there...). BMWs excel at three things: balance, balance, and balance! :cool:

[SoCalSteve]

That's exactly what I did... White, FULL loaded 40% off new sticker w/14,000 miles (and full CPO warranty). Did the same thing with the M coupe... 40% off sticker with 18000 miles on and CPO.


Both were had for under 40k$...





Which is why I was asking you today how a bike fit in a 911...

Have an extremely nice 07 Carrera S Cabrio (Trade rather than Lease roll) that is calling me...


LOUDLY.

I thought you were joking, seriously! :beer:

But, honestly, the inside of a Porsche is pretty small. That being said, I have seen a guy with a 911 Cab put a bike in the back of it. Looked kind of odd, but it did work...Only 1 suggestion, get a furni pad, I'd hate to see grease get on that fine German leather.

Well, a second suggestion...Buy it! You only live once! Im a true "car guy" and have owned many Japanese sports cars and German sedans. My 911 blows everything I have ever owned away by a mile. Seriously, its a friggin Porsche. And, its a friggin 911 Porsche. Doesnt get much better. Reliability and a BLAST to drive...

As Tom Cruise wisely said in "Risky Business" : Porsche, there is no substitute.

[fourflys]

I thought you were joking, seriously! :beer:

But, honestly, the inside of a Porsche is pretty small. That being said, I have seen a guy with a 911 Cab put a bike in the back of it. Looked kind of odd, but it did work...Only 1 suggestion, get a furni pad, I'd hate to see grease get on that fine German leather.

Well, a second suggestion...Buy it! You only live once! Im a true "car guy" and have owned many Japanese sports cars and German sedans. My 911 blows everything I have ever owned away by a mile. Seriously, its a friggin Porsche. And, its a friggin 911 Porsche. Doesnt get much better. Reliability and a BLAST to drive...

As Tom Cruise wisely said in "Risky Business" : Porsche, there is no substitute.

yeah, I don't think I'd put a bike inside a 911... ;)

But, doens't the 911 have a cool rack system that the crossbars just click into a recepticle in the roof? that's the stuff right there...

someday when I grow up, I'll have a 911! :D

[Charles M]

Not on a cabrio....

:cool:

BUT. With me being a 53-54, I can drop the top, pop the wheels off and drop them and the frame in the storage compartment (AKA silly excuse for a back seat) and be done with it.

I saw the furni pad...

Put the top back up and poof... one of the better equiped "hard transport case's"...


I was really wanting a Cayman S, but there's just no making the bike work, and it seems like cake in the 911. This one won't be under 40k though...

[zap]

Uh, if you buy it used, then you get a great resale value (later) because you let some other schmoe take the non-trivial initial depreciation hit. Got it?

Got it. I did not get that from reading your post.

I'm all for purchasing cpo or enthusiast owned cars. We purchased a cpo benz e class wagon with less than 14k last summer and so far so good. More space than our old Volvo 850 turbo wagon, much better built and performace (except mileage) several steps above the Volvo.

[fourflys]

Not on a cabrio....

:cool:

BUT. With me being a 53-54, I can drop the top, pop the wheels off and drop them and the frame in the storage compartment (AKA silly excuse for a back seat) and be done with it.

I saw the furni pad...

Put the top back up and poof... one of the better equiped "hard transport case's"...


I was really wanting a Cayman S, but there's just no making the bike work, and it seems like cake in the 911. This one won't be under 40k though...

good plan.... good plan :D

[Ken Robb]

one car I completly forgot about is the Mazda RX-8... that's a HOT car and I love the suicide rear doors! I'd have to try it with a bike though...

http://www.ssip.net/upload/mazda-rx8-side-3_95.jpg

No torque until 4,000 rpm and lousy gas mileage--fun handling--

[SoCalSteve]

yeah, I don't think I'd put a bike inside a 911... ;)

But, doens't the 911 have a cool rack system that the crossbars just click into a recepticle in the roof? that's the stuff right there...

someday when I grow up, I'll have a 911! :D

Yes and no. Cool rack system, yes. Clicks in, yes. Makes lots of noise, YES!

But, it only works on a coupe', not on a cabriolet.

Ask Serotta Pete. He tried to sell (unload) his rack system off on me awhile back... ;)

[SoCalSteve]

Not on a cabrio....

:cool:

BUT. With me being a 53-54, I can drop the top, pop the wheels off and drop them and the frame in the storage compartment (AKA silly excuse for a back seat) and be done with it.

I saw the furni pad...

Put the top back up and poof... one of the better equiped "hard transport case's"...


I was really wanting a Cayman S, but there's just no making the bike work, and it seems like cake in the 911. This one won't be under 40k though...

It will all work EXCEPT, I dont think you will be able to get the top back up. The bike will stick up and out too much. At least it did on the guy I saw transporting his bike this way in a 911 Cab. He didn't have a furni pad either...the HORROR!

Good luck! You must show us pictures (with and without the bike). This is a Forum requirement. No exceptions!

[fourflys]

so, was there ever a new car bought???

curious minds want to know!

[Pete Serotta]

911 carrera has a roof rack as do the CAYMAN. they work well but are noisy.


I know that Mike on a 55cm has been able to take wheels off and seat post - thus sliding everything into a 996.

[Louis]

so, was there ever a new car bought???

curious minds want to know!

Nope, not yet.

I've decided to not decide. I considered starting a list of cars to test drive but haven't gotten around to it. Once I've created the list I'll post it here.

Louis

[nm87710]

911 carrera has a roof rack as do the CAYMAN. they work well but are noisy.


I know that Mike on a 55cm has been able to take wheels off and seat post - thus sliding everything into a 996.

Good Luck