legal supplements

[rockdude]

Who has used supplements and has seen quantitative performance results like increase wattage.

Creatine
Beta-alanine
ATP
BCAAs
Octacosanol
Rhodiola
Glycerol
Quercetin
etc...

Many of these have research behind them stating that they improve performance but you never know how strong the research is and who paid for it.

When I try to peak in any sport I use Amino's Acids, I seem to have more energy, recover faster and lean out some. I can't quantify the results but for over 25 years of use I feel it works for me.

[rnhood]

I've tried most of those, and to no avail. In fact the O2 boosters like Optygen, Oxydrene,etc make me feel worse. I suspect I get plenty of any needed supplements out of my nutritional regimen.

On long rides, especially mountain rides which dominate my biking activities, I mix several scoops of Perpetuam and several scoops of Heed in one water bottle which makes a high test slurry - that's pretty tasty actually. And pure water in the other bottle. I nurse the high test bottle throughout the ride, and supplement at the rest stops with orange slices, bananas, pretzels, handful of mixed nuts and maybe a cookie or two. At the end of the ride I'm ususally pretty hungry. If I can eat fairly soon, that's what I do. Otherwise, I drink some recovery drink to buy some time.

[palincss]

At what point does this concern go beyond maintaining electrolyte balance to avoid cramps and providing adequate nutrition into what could very well be called "doping"?

[rockdude]

At what point does this concern go beyond maintaining electrolyte balance to avoid cramps and providing adequate nutrition into what could very well be called "doping"?

Easy answer:

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/Footer-Links/FAQ/

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . but it's proven efficacy for endurance athletes is extremely questionable thus far. Creatine is an ATP precursor and has been shown through consistent, repeatable research to assist in fast-twitch fiber recovery. I have seen nothing so far that convinces me that direct ingestion of raw ATP is going to succeed in the ATP actually getting to the muscles.

I have used Creatine for resistance training myself and can attest that it does make a difference, though not a game-changing one. It's the only supplement I will recommend to my clients at the gym--and even then only to those actively following a hypertrophy program.

Also remember that if you do want to try Creatine in any situation, use it only before and specifically for your workout. Don't take it 24/7. The supplement companies would have you think you can take it all the time, anytime. But as with many vitamins, your body can only use so much and the excess has to be filtered by the kidneys and excreted. Long term constant usage increases your chances of future kidney damage. But you might have a hard time finding that with a Google search--the supplement companies have bought bought up preferred status so that all you get when you search is pitches and more pitches. :butt:

BBD

[palincss]

Is it really an "easy answer"? Here's what WADA says:


Doping also threatens the integrity of sport. Doping, the use of artificial enhancements to gain an advantage over others in competition, is cheating and is fundamentally contrary to the spirit of sport. Further, doping robs athletes who play by the rules of their right to competition that is safe and fair.


What part of that doesn't apply to the "supplements" under discussion?

[Richard]

The part that says "...gain an advantage over others..." is the reason these supplements are not doping. They don't provide an advantage as they don't work on anything but your wallet.

[BryanE]

Tried creatine in 99 and it made me cramp.
Bryan

[stephenmarklay]

palincss - I think it very hard to draw the line other than making a list of banned substances. For instance what is adequate nutrition. I am not sure that there is any worldwide standard available for that. Creatine for example is plentiful in meats but what if you are vegan. Does the guy that eats meat have an unfair advantage? What about the guy that loads up on red meat to before competition? Is that adequate? Or perhaps more than adequate for boost performance. What about a sports drink? Mixed bag but more and more of them a full of scientifically researched performance enhancing substances such isolated amino acids.

Now all of this is the same with bikes, aero equip etc. That is why that is what is deemed acceptable is not left to personal judgement but the rules.

I agree with you in spirit but not in practice.

BumbleBeeDave, I am interested in what you say about Creatine. I have been contemplating trying it in the way that you are describing. I don't want to see any real weight gains from extra muscle but I figured I might try it Monday night/Tuesday morning for a Tuesday hard effort (Sprints and on bike Strength intervals) and again for Thursday but not other times.

Have you seen this be of value?

[oldguy00]

Who has used supplements and has seen quantitative performance results like increase wattage.

Creatine
Beta-alanine
ATP
BCAAs
Octacosanol
Rhodiola
Glycerol
Quercetin
etc...
....

I've tried many over the years, don't bother anymore.
The only ones I found that made any difference were ephedrine hcl, and large doses of caffeine.
I wouldn't recommend either, especially the ephedrine, as it can be dangerous.

[Ozz]

Who has used supplements and has seen quantitative performance results like increase wattage.

Creatine
Beta-alanine
ATP
BCAAs
Octacosanol
Rhodiola
Glycerol
Quercetin
etc...

Many of these have research behind them stating that they improve performance but you never know how strong the research is and who paid for it.....
I know zip about supplements, but can imagine the any of the above will only show results after you have trained to the limits of your natural ability...meaning, one you have completed a "pro" training plan and have hit a wall on seeing any more improvement.....they are kind of like buying a Meivici to replace your CSI and expecting to "go faster".

My point being that a better training plan will provide better results than popping a pill or powder.

I am sure Ti Designs has an opinion on this as well.

[rockdude]

I know zip about supplements, but can imagine the any of the above will only show results after you have trained to the limits of your natural ability...meaning, one you have completed a "pro" training plan and have hit a wall on seeing any more improvement.....they are kind of like buying a Meivici to replace your CSI and expecting to "go faster".

My point being that a better training plan will provide better results than popping a pill or powder.

I am sure Ti Designs has an opinion on this as well.

Not looking for a miracle pill. But when you are racing to do your best and have paid for the Pro plan/coach, and spend 14-18 hours a week riding your guts out, have a planned diet that no one in your house likes, cut your work hours some to get the extra sleep, study and read everything you can on strategy and tactics, pour over your wattage and performance software and have made a full commitment to see how good you can be, you don't want to leave any rocks unturned.

If a supplement can help get an extra few intervals, recover faster, sleep better etc... It needs to be examined as part of the plan.

The supplements listed have research stating that they work at improving performance and I am very skeptical of the research but it doesn't stop me from wondering if there is some validity to any of it.

If I bought a Meivici at full price, I would expect to go faster :D

[BumbleBeeDave]

The supplements listed have research stating that they work at improving performance and I am very skeptical of the research but it doesn't stop me from wondering if there is some validity to any of it.

If I bought a Meivici at full price, I would expect to go faster :D

. . . that quantifies the (small) advantages of Creatine for resistance training, i.e., weightlifting. I believe Ephedrine has been outlawed by the FDA. The only legal supplement I've seen any legit research on as providing benefit is endurance activities if caffeine. So much of this stuff is just marketing.

If I bought a Meivici at full price, I would expect to pedal itself and go faster! ;) :D

BBD

[redir]

Then I'd have an answer for you.

[Ozz]

Not looking for a miracle pill. But when you are racing to do your best and have paid for the Pro plan/coach, and spend 14-18 hours a week riding your guts out, have a planned diet that no one in your house likes, cut your work hours some to get the extra sleep, study and read everything you can on strategy and tactics, pour over your wattage and performance software and have made a full commitment to see how good you can be, you don't want to leave any rocks unturned. ...
yes, that was my point....just that the supplements are probably the last rocks to turn.

I too am skeptical of the "research" you mention...

[false_Aest]

Shrug.

I avoid caffeine 3 days before a race and the morning of.

1 hour before I race I take 1 excedrine and 2 ibuprophen.

20 min before the race I chug a redbull.

It's about as much caffeine as I normally consume just dosed differently. It really does help the performance.

I've tried DHEA, BCAAs, Whey Protein (concentrate and isolate), etc. They don't seem to help out for cycling but they definitely helped out with recovery when I was lifting 6 days a week.

I've considered trying HGH and the other proven stuff but I realize that no matter what I'd do, I'd never come close to being really really good at cycling.