twee daage nach de ronde

[jerk]

nico mattan will win.
ekimov second
some weird guy like cancellera or someone else who shouldn't really be there like ludo dierckxsons will get third....nico eekhout should win but won't because the group won't let any of his attacks stick and chocolade jacques sucks almost as bad as the team the jerk rode for....nah, it's better than that.

nico
nico mattan
nico
nico mattan

[dehoopta]

:confused:

[Ken Lehner]

nico mattan will win.
ekimov second
some weird guy like cancellera or someone else who shouldn't really be there like ludo dierckxsons will get third....nico eekhout should win but won't because the group won't let any of his attacks stick and chocolade jacques sucks almost as bad as the team the jerk rode for....nah, it's better than that.

nico
nico mattan
nico
nico mattan

Good call (not):

1 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick Step 6.22.00 (40.2 km/h)
2 Andreas Klier (Ger) T-Mobile Team 0.35
3 Peter Van Petegem (Bel) Davitamon-Lotto 0.40

(I suppose Van Petegem shouldn't really be there?)

...
13 Bernhard Eisel (Aut) Française Des Jeux 2.04
...
17 Nico Mattan (Bel) Davitamon-Lotto s.t.
...
36 Uros Murn (Slo) Phonak Hearing Systems 6.25
...
56 Viatcheslav Ekimov (Rus) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team s.t.
...
61 Magnus Backstedt (Swe) Liquigas-Bianchi 10.21
62 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Fassa Bortolo s.t.

"At the now six rider escape hit the Oude Kwaremont with 86km to go, Bäckstedt's tempo blew Mourey and Boucher out the back, while the recently in-form Nico Eeckhout (Chocolade Jacques) abandoned in the peloton."

I can't wait for your next picks.

[93legendti]

I agree, but this the jerk, he is never "wrong", right? Other jerk pearls of wisdom: Carbon cranks have no advantage over aluminum cranks (other than weight, stiffness and fatigue resistance); he's a retro grouch --yet he espouses carbon frames and all carbon wheels; and Discovery would not race on anatomic handlebars this year (Why doesn't Lance listen to jerk?)

[Dr. Doofus]

your carbon crank makes you faster, right?

[Roy E. Munson]

Just this weekend I noticed the lack of stiffness in my DA cranks and the fatigue that has set into my Ultegra cranks. Oh, if only they cost more...I mean, if only they were made of carbon.

[Andreu]

I agree, but this the jerk, he is never "wrong", right? Other jerk pearls of wisdom: Carbon cranks have no advantage over aluminum cranks (other than weight, stiffness and fatigue resistance); he's a retro grouch --yet he espouses carbon frames and all carbon wheels; and Discovery would not race on anatomic handlebars this year (Why doesn't Lance listen to jerk?)

Are you stalking the jerk?

[saab2000]

They don't like each other. I wish that the cheap shots would be left unsaid because we are all here at the pleasure of Serotta and if this turns nasty it will turn off.

If you must argue keep it private. Not here.

[93legendti]

Right, I have nothing better to do in my retirement than "stalk" a washed out racer who, after Serotta cancels his dealership, joins this forum to get attention saying silly things about pro racers who are actually successful.

I think he is hilarious, as is the admiration he gets here. Amazing, a never-was gets more respect here than Hincapie and Armstrong. If it wasn't so hilarious, it would be absurb.

[weisan]

your carbon crank makes you faster, right?

Saab is right.

Doofus, I said NO talking to the wall...erh...I mean the PRESS!!! I catch you one more time, I am sending you back to the dump, your "$1-a-year-for-10-yrs-domestique-servitude" contract will be terminated, and you will perform "10-lousy-bucks-for-an-oil-change" for the rest of your life. :butt:

[M_A_Martin]

d

[Climb01742]

boys, boys, boys...haven't we got something meaningful to argue about...like steel or something? :beer:

[Dr. Doofus]

sorry weisan-san

...after telling velonews there was no interview, guess your doof got a little sloppy...

[weisan]

sorry weisan-san

...after telling velonews there was no interview, guess your doof got a little sloppy...

Now, that's much better. From now on, you wanna yap with 93LegendTi, you go thru' me, YOU UNDERSTAND??!! Now, get back to drinking more water and mandatory bedrest.

[93legendti]

your carbon crank makes you faster, right?

You mean:

"Your doofus wonders if maybe carbon cranks do not make you faster".

Yes, I think stiffer and lighter is better than heavier and less flexible, especially with rotational weight.

[weisan]

You mean:

"Your doofus wonders if maybe carbon cranks do not make you faster".

Yes, I think stiffer and lighter is better than heavier and less flexible, especially with rotational weight.


Doofus by the way of his official spokesperson: "Sorry, no comments."

[Big Dan]

You mean:

"Your doofus wonders if maybe carbon cranks do not make you faster".

Yes, I think stiffer and lighter is better than heavier and less flexible, especially with rotational weight.


Please help me out...which one is stiffer and which is less flexible...?? :confused:

[musgravecycles]

93Legend Ti,

Yeah my Record Crank just isn't stuff enough..
.
I know it's stiff enough for Petacchi and Cipo, but I really wish that they would do something about that...

[Climb01742]

a priest, a rabbi and a duck walk into a bar...

[Tom]

What kind of duck?

[Climb01742]

the talking variety. not the peking kind.

[Ti Designs]

OK, I'll start at the top. Nico Mattan? I don't watch much european pro racing, I'd much rather ride my own bike than watch other people ride theirs. Just the same, I do have a VCR and TV mounted in front of my trainer for those days I don't go outside, and I have seen some race where Nico was in the break and some guy named George won. Nico spent from 8K all the way to 2K trying to slip the group 'cause he knew he didn't have a sprint. Nobody was willing to let him go and everybody knew what his tactics would be. I know that Boonen went away solo with 9K to go, but nobody let him leave. I don't see how Nico could have won in that company. That's just my take it, I'm pretty good at reading races but things are probably different with the big boys...

93legendti, people here aren't as blind as you may think. The jerk pushes what he sells, does anyone on the forum not know that? That's really not the reason people surf this forum...

Doof, I only wish my carbon cranks could drag me out of the slump I'm in. I put in the base mileage, I hit the weights, I had a few good weeks on the road bike, then my speed went away. At least with the carbon cranks I still look fast...

[saab2000]

Now I figured out why my Merckx ti feels mushy. No carbon cranks...... Yeah, that's the ticket....

[Big Dan]

I think George could have used a little more carbon too........... :D

[cpg]

Carbon cranks stiffer? Prove it. And I don't mean vomitting some web/ad/heard it from your cousin nonsense. Where's the testing? It might be the case but it might not. Who's done the testing? Or does this fall under the realm of carbon seat posts taking the sting out of bumps. Now that's a funny one.

Hey Climb-o-matic, what did the duck say?

Curt

[Ti Designs]

Carbon cranks stiffer? Prove it. And I don't mean vomitting some web/ad/heard it from your cousin nonsense. Where's the testing? It might be the case but it might not. Who's done the testing? Or does this fall under the realm of carbon seat posts taking the sting out of bumps. Now that's a funny one.


As soon as I get climb's cleat shims off my milling machine I'll can do a bit of testing. I have a 5C octolink spindle mount from when I had to convert regular cranks to tandem cranks, I have air cylinders to supply force, and I have digital gauges with SPC output to measure deflection...

[93legendti]

OK, I'll start at the top. Nico Mattan? I don't watch much european pro racing, I'd much rather ride my own bike than watch other people ride theirs. Just the same, I do have a VCR and TV mounted in front of my trainer for those days I don't go outside, and I have seen some race where Nico was in the break and some guy named George won. Nico spent from 8K all the way to 2K trying to slip the group 'cause he knew he didn't have a sprint. Nobody was willing to let him go and everybody knew what his tactics would be. I know that Boonen went away solo with 9K to go, but nobody let him leave. I don't see how Nico could have won in that company. That's just my take it, I'm pretty good at reading races but things are probably different with the big boys...

93legendti, people here aren't as blind as you may think. The jerk pushes what he sells, does anyone on the forum not know that? That's really not the reason people surf this forum...

Doof, I only wish my carbon cranks could drag me out of the slump I'm in. I put in the base mileage, I hit the weights, I had a few good weeks on the road bike, then my speed went away. At least with the carbon cranks I still look fast...

OK, now I feel better. :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

I believe Velo News did exactly this test last year sometime. Might save a lot of work if you looked for it in their archive.

BBDave

[chrisroph]

Saab--Maybe you need some steel cranks. I remember having this old schwinn that had a super stiff one piece steel crank.

[Climb01742]

just curious...has anyone here ever flexed a modern crank? i can't imagine even superman flexing a DA10 crank. or a DA9 for that matter. but then i'm a wuss. :D

[Ti Designs]

just curious...has anyone here ever flexed a modern crank? i can't imagine even superman flexing a DA10 crank. or a DA9 for that matter. but then i'm a wuss. :D


Superman is faster than a bulit and stronger than a train, I can't see him needing 10-speed...

OK, here's the real poop on testing: From going to the gym all year, I know about how much force I can put on a pedal. Let's say I get lucky and put 100% of that force perpendicular to the crank (don't know what that had to do with me getting lucky, but...). Teting will give me a curve with force on one axis and displacement on the other. Then I can look at how much force I can put into the crank on my best day ever and know that the crank is 400% overkill or 500% overkill or 600%...

The bike I own which sees the most force at the pedals is probably my track bike, which has a Campy Record Pista crank from the 80's on it. I notice wheel spin if I get on it too hard, but never crank flex. Then again, I'm only 155 pounds and I was born on this planet.

[Dr. Doofus]

no one here can flex or break a modern crank

[Ti Designs]

no one here can flex or break a modern crank


Geeeez, next thing you're going to tell me that I can't win the Tour de France or that dead people can't ride a bike!

[Dr. Doofus]

Geeeez, next thing you're going to tell me that I can't win the Tour de France or that dead people can't ride a bike!


...but...dead people can win the tour if and only if they can break cranks

[Roy E. Munson]

From going to the gym all year, I know about how much force I can put on a pedal.

Explanation please.

no one here can flex or break a modern crank

Noooo, you're crazy. I think any 60 year old retiree who took up cycling at the age of 53 can detect flex in a crank, as well as the torsional rigidity of seatposts, stems, bars, and pedal spindles, not to mention the aerodynamic advantages of Zipp 404's vs Mavic Cosmic Carbones.

[Sandy]

How can I say this without hurting your feelings too much? You can't win the Tour, dead or alive, either one of you. :)

Do you ever talk to youself? Do you listen to yourself when you talk to yourself? :)

Did you attend your funeral? I guess that you had too. :)

Sandy

[jerk]

wow, the jerk picks a couple of dark horse favorites and it is all about everything else....sorry.
jerk

[Sandy]

All that and then some.

Super Strong Superman Sandy

[Sandy]

I feel like a real jerk adding posts that took us away from the direction of your thread.

Sorry,

Sandy

[Ti Designs]

Explanation please.

Oh-Tay. My weight program is designed to follow the same range of motion as the pedal stroke given the equipment at my gym. I also do a fair amount of testing on each side to keep the balance in check. I use both the hack squat machine and the inverted leg press in testing, but the leg press involves a fixed position to push against which my bike doesn't have (gotta get a seatbelt on that thing!) so I'll use the testing on the hack squat machine. Add my weight, the weight I'm lifting and the weight of the sled, multiply by the Cosine of the incline angle, and you have a rough guess.

I could mount tension gauges on pedals and measure it that way, but there's only so much money I'm willing to spend to figure out I'm too wimpy to flex my old cranks. Besides, I've spent all my money on carbon cranks!



I think any 60 year old retiree who took up cycling at the age of 53 can detect flex in a crank, as well as the torsional rigidity of seatposts, stems, bars, and pedal spindles, not to mention the aerodynamic advantages of Zipp 404's vs Mavic Cosmic Carbones.

Damn, I had no idea that 60 year olds were that sensitive to things like that. Maybe I'll just give up on the testing and hire a flock of geezers!

[Bill Bove]

Let's see now, I raced fairly well 20 years ago at 135lbs on aluminum Super Record cranks, today at 175 with carbon Record cranks I just ain't got it anymore. The 40 pounds around my middle are holding me back more than the extra 20 or so grams on my crank would have.

But the carbon cranks are way, way more wicked pissa awesome looking than the aluminum are.

[JohnS]

I think that we should all be in sympathy with 93legendti. He keeps mentioning that he's retired. I take that to mean that he no longer has underlings at work to be a pr*ck to and his wife is sick of him hanging around the house nagging her. If he keeps it up, she's going to divorce him and take half his meager worth. We're all he's got left in life! :banana:

[GoJavs]

no one here can flex or break a modern crank

Doc - I am sure glad you specified modern, because if my memory serves me right, my oldest brother (nickname:Champ) has killed a vintage Nuovo Record and a Nervar...He is 265 lbs + after all.

In any event, if I owned a single piece of bbq-fuel (er...I mean carbon), I'd never ever let him get near that bike. :no:

[GoJavs]

wow, the jerk picks a couple of dark horse favorites and it is all about everything else....sorry.
jerk

Here, here jerk...I'll take Nico on even dough. Unfortunately, It'll probably be for second. BOONEN be too hot right now! :cool:

[Roy E. Munson]

Oh-Tay. My weight program is designed to follow the same range of motion as the pedal stroke given the equipment at my gym. I also do a fair amount of testing on each side to keep the balance in check. I use both the hack squat machine and the inverted leg press in testing, but the leg press involves a fixed position to push against which my bike doesn't have (gotta get a seatbelt on that thing!) so I'll use the testing on the hack squat machine. Add my weight, the weight I'm lifting and the weight of the sled, multiply by the Cosine of the incline angle, and you have a rough guess.

OK, I'll buy all that for a dime, but it's comparing apples and oranges in my proudly unscientific opinion.

[Ti Designs]

OK, I'll buy all that for a dime, but it's comparing apples and oranges in my proudly unscientific opinion.


Probably right. Peak force on the pedals happens when I'm pulling up on the handlebars on the same side I'm pushing down on the pedal. There's probably more flex in the frame at that point then there ever could be along the length of the crank. Guess I was looking for numbers in the wrong places. No more scientific testing for me, for now on the numbers I'm interested in are how many sprints I can win and the number of the girl siting at the bar - not in that order.

[BumbleBeeDave]

All this FEUDING! . . .

Ti-Man . . . I agree with you that flex CAN be felt, but personally the only time I’ve ever felt it was in comparison between old Cinelli XA stem on my Vitus and new Zepp XL stem on the Queen Bee. But it was only after I rode the newer, waaaay stiffer stem that I realized how much the old one DID flex. Also, if you need geezers to test the cranks, do a search for “geezerjock” and and read that thread--no shortage of old guys ready to kick your--uh, I mean the CRANK’s butt! :banana:

JohnS . . . Shame on you for talking to LegendTi like that! Imagine, being cruel to the handicapped that way! ;)

Roy . . . I agree with you that cranks may flex juuuust a bit, but they are so overbuilt that I don’t think anyone could break one either with sheer leg power unless it was defective (the crank, not the leg!)

Jerk-Meister . . . We still love you even when you’re wrong! :crap:

To all . . . I am pretty darn sure VN did exactly this test early last spring and came to the conclusion that the DA crank was stil the stiffest/least flexy. I remember because I was looking for a carbon crank on eBay at the time and wondered if it really WOULD be stiffer. The carbon cranks were not really any stiffer according to the testing, but I went ahead and got one anyway because it was equally stiff to within a few percent and it looked much better on my bike. :beer:

BBDave

[vaxn8r]

All this FEUDING! . . .

The carbon cranks were not really any stiffer according to the testing, but I went ahead and got one anyway because it was equally stiff to within a few percent and it looked much better on my bike. :beer:

BBDave
Better looking than Shimano? Hah! Shimano anything is better in every regard than anything else including Campy.
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How's that for highjacking a thread?

[bcm119]

All this FEUDING! . . .

Ti-Man . . . I agree with you that flex CAN be felt, but personally the only time I’ve ever felt it was in comparison between old Cinelli XA stem on my Vitus and new Zepp XL stem on the Queen Bee.
BBDave

I know you miss your Vitus. Heres (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=130&subcategory=1176&brand=&sku=13102&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=) your solution.

[csb]

"Yes, I think stiffer and lighter is better than heavier and less flexible, especially with rotational weight"


are you saying cranks are rotational weight?

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don’t miss my Vitus at all . . . it’s hanging down in the basement right now, fitted out as a TT bike. :banana: :banana: :banana:

BBDave

[Ken Lehner]

a priest, a rabbi and a duck walk into a bar...
What is this, some kind of joke?

[aLexis]

Here is a link to the VN article about crank stifness.

Velonews test (http://dura-ace.shimano.com/publish/content/duraace/en/home/the_product0/drive_train.ExtraMainContentPar.0017.File.tmp/VN-crank-results-web.pdf)

[BumbleBeeDave]

That is exactly the story I was thinking of! Given that this is a link to the Shimano web site, their vested interest in the results should be obvious. But the trust I have in VN’s impartiality boosts my confidence.

As you can see from the results, the DA crank IS stiffer, but you have to ask yourself whether it’s still stiffer in relation to the force you as a rider can put on the pedals. For the huge majority of us, the answer is going to be that the stiffness is not a major issue--at least for me. I didn’t want to buy a full DA group, since I’m pretty sure I remember that the 10 speed DA crank wouldn’t work with my 9 speed group, and I got a great deal on an almost new FSA Team Issue (not the Superlight) on eBay.

What they don’t go into is how much energy--and therefore speed--you would actually lose with the less stiff cranks. Is it little enough that you could compensate in other areas? . . . Like by getting a Legend or Ottrott that is built stiffer? Or stiffer wheels? Or by gaining a little strength by using the leg machine at the gym? Heck, even by gaining 20 lbs. and standing up? . . . :rolleyes:

BBDave

[CNote]

What they don’t go into is how much energy--and therefore speed--you would actually lose with the less stiff cranks.

An imperceptible and inconsequential amount at best. The bottom bracket shell in this "study" was fixed in some kind of non-bicycle frame entity. In the real world, bottom brackets attach to bicycle frames, which will deflect way before any crankarm does.