View Full Version : smoothing out my pedal stroke
Climb01742
04-01-2005, 08:31 PM
anyone have any good suggestions for ways to smooth out a pedal stroke? ideas and suggestions greatly appreciated. thanks. :beer:
dirtdigger88
04-01-2005, 08:59 PM
climb-
I wont even attempt it- but get ahold of tidesigns- he sure helped me
Jason
gasman
04-01-2005, 09:05 PM
Ti had a nice post about that a while ago. I worked on my stroke this winter and it is better but I can always improve, probably a lot !
amper
04-01-2005, 09:21 PM
Check out Ti Designs post at http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=5810
One leg drills on the trainer have done wonders for me. I can’t remember where I found the drill below but it works.
Single Leg Pedaling Drills
Set 1: 30 seconds right leg, 30 seconds left leg, 30 seconds both legs focusing on form at a comfortable cadence. Repeat 3 times
5 minutes easy recovery riding
Set 2: 45 second right leg, 45 seconds left leg, 30 seconds both legs focusing on form at comfortable cadence. Repeat 3 times.
5 minutes easy recovery riding
Set 3: 1 minute right leg, 1 minute left leg, 1 minute both legs focusing on form at comfortable cadence. Repeat 3 times.
A good goal is to try to get 6-9 minutes on each individual leg per workout. Remember to only use a cadence and interval length that allows you to hold perfect form. Gradually increase interval time and cadence and decrease the recovery period as your skill improves and your neuromuscular system adapts.
High Cadence Drills
Set 1: 5 minutes at cadence of 107-115, hands on tops and brake hoods.
8 minutes easy recovery riding.
Set 2: 5 minutes at cadence of 115-125, hands on brake hoods and drops or aero bars.
8 minutes easy recovery riding.
Set 3: 5 minutes at cadence of 115-125, with 20 second bursts of 125-130, hands on brake hoods and aero bars.
Remember that your goal here is foot speed, not force. Relax that upper body and feet and no bouncing! Gradually increase the length of the interval and reduce the recovery interval as your body adapts.
1centaur
04-01-2005, 09:21 PM
...but my SpinScan has barely budged.
I feel more powerful through the stroke and can see more watts on the screen though, so here are my un-racer, un-scientific tips:
1) One-legged drills on a trainer, 30-60 seconds per leg, fairly light resistance, 5-10 reps. That's just to get the muscle memory started.
2) Concentrate on every part of the stroke except quads pushing down:
That scraping the mud off your shoe thing does not work too well for me, but others swear by it.
Fling your knees up and over the handlebar
Concentrate on lining up your leg and then drive your heel down like a hammer with just a little pull back at the end.
Don't overextend the stroke - start each part of the circle before you've reached max power in that direction - very counterintuitive for quad pushers but very good for getting watts up.
3) Stretch your glutes before you start, and anything else that's tight - tight legs mess up a smooth stroke in lots of subtle ways.
4) Keep your legs as relaxed as possible.
5) Expect to be terrible for a year - those are mighty weak muscles.
6) 10 seconds of good spinning before something fatigues is 10 seconds of progress you won't give back.
7) Watch out for knee pain until those weak muscle get stronger - a very important reason to practice at low watts.
cs124
04-01-2005, 09:22 PM
anyone have any good suggestions for ways to smooth out a pedal stroke? ideas and suggestions greatly appreciated. thanks. :beer:
My 0.02 only.
Seat height: Too high? Too low? Just right? For me there is one seat height that works and if I'm not on it I pedal squares.
Set back: For me KOPS is good for spinning but I can't generate any power for climbing like this. 1cm behind KOPS is a good compromise that lets me spin comfortably at 110rpm but also generate reasonable power. Any further back and it's squares again.
One legged exercises on the trainer: Helps isolate strength and flexibility imbalances.
Rollers: If you are not smooth you'll probably fall off.
Coach: See if you can find a coach who will ride with you on the road and critique your form. S/he may spot something that you've missed. In my experience fitters seem to only work with a stationary bike indoors. I just don't get how they can replicate all the forces a body sees when the bike is in motion using this method.
good luck.
Big Dan
04-01-2005, 09:29 PM
Climb, miles lots and lots of miles................... :D
woolly
04-01-2005, 09:29 PM
Fixed-gear on rollers.
bcm119
04-01-2005, 09:35 PM
One-legged drills have helped me alot too. Those first few minutes after a good one-legged session are sublime- you feel like the BB is part of your body. Also, try hip-flexor exercises, TiDesigns had some words for me about this. Its amazing how weak your hip flexors can be if you don't think to use them.
.
1centaur-
spin scan sucks....it won't make anyone faster or more efficient. there have been no conclusive studies showing a "rounder" pedal stroke is better, worse or indifferent to cycling performance. keep the cadence up, work on your aerobioc and anaerobic training, make sure you can handle a bicycle and ride alot. the bicycle and the human body is a wonderfully efficient combination when the become used to each other.....trying to drastically alter the way your legs make circles is pointless at best, dangerous at worst. look at wattage, look at heartrate, look at your own effort and recovery and look at your speed.....disregard trying to achieve some platonoc form when it comes to pedalling circles. give the jerk ten pro-cyclists and he will show you ten different pedalling styles. (and if you put them on a "spin scan" they'd be all over the map.)
jerk
by the way one legged drills are dumb.
soulspinner
04-01-2005, 10:08 PM
I have never read a thread that rings truer than what the jerk just said. I spent the last year studying the top cyclists stroke and was shocked at how different they are and how everybody has a different degree of leg bend at the bottom of their stroke. Some ankle a lot more than others. Just my observation.
Ti Designs
04-01-2005, 11:38 PM
there have been no conclusive studies showing a "rounder" pedal stroke is better, worse or indifferent to cycling performance.
You mean like the one done by the USACDF? That one study aside, how many studies have been done with the same rider tested both before and after pedal stroke work? Looking at the pedal stroke of top riders doesn't show the full picture. What's more, top riders tend to have a round pedal stroke. Part of that is because of how they train, part because they just have better control over muscle firing sequence and timing - the same thing that makes them top riders. In training there is a long period of base mileage at higher cadence which also works the pedal stroke.
In short, not fighting yourself in the pedal stroke is always more efficiant than fighting yourself. I don't belive I just said that...
When I start working with my riders on pedal stroke most of them can't even get the pedal over the top of the stroke with one leg clipped in and peddaling slowly. There's always that "thunk!" at the top, or the pedal only makes it up most of the way and then falls back down. That means that the other leg has to push that one over the top each pedal stroke. Tell me how that's efficiant.
I'm not looking to get power gains from underleveraged muscle groups like hip flexors, my program is all about firing sequence. Your body has muscle groups opposed - one moves a joint in one direction, the other moves it the other way. Example: When you do a bicept curl your brain sends out two signals, the bicepts contract and the tricepts relax. You only think about the contraction, your body is wired to make the other muscle relax. Now apply that to the pedal stroke, on the way up your hip flexor should fire, but your body is also telling your glutes to relax. There's more to gain in efficiantcy in the glutes relaxing than there will ever be in the hip flexors pulling up, but it gets you to the same place.
by the way one legged drills are dumb.
From now on I'll have to call my program "peddaling for dummies".
Birddog
04-02-2005, 12:16 AM
Wooly said "Fixed-gear on rollers."
Make it a Softride, fixed gear on rollers.
Birddog
David Kirk
04-02-2005, 12:33 AM
I'm not a coach but I play one on TV....or something like that. I agree with a lot that has been said here but feel I'd like to add a few small things.
First I'd like to say that stacking on the miles won't make you any better unless to actually pay attention to what is happening. If you have a crappy stroke, and you keep doing the same thing you'll just end up being really good at that crappy stroke. I think one needs to analize their stroke constantly and keep the parts that work and throw out the rest. Don't practice the part that sucks.
Secondly I'm not a big fan of one footed stuff. To balance on the bike properly you need to shift your hips to one side and that throws off the whole deal. I prefer looking at a specific part of the stroke in detail for a few miles at a time. Awareness is the key. We can't change or improve what we don't know or understand. Concentrate on pulling the foot across the bottom of the stroke for awhile. Concentrate on NOT pushing down on the pedal at the bottom of the stroke..........it can't go anywhere so why push on it? This is a big issue for most riders when out of the saddle. The foot should feel light at the bottom of the stroke not heavily weighted when out of the saddle. It will just make your frame feel too flexable ( a whole different topic ). Become aware of how you deal with the top of the stroke. Are you pushing down on the pedal at the top of the stroke when in reality you should be pushing forward on it? So break the stroke up into segments and become aware of what you are doing first and then try to make it better.
By focusing on different segments we don't become to overwhelmed and it allows us to really see what we are doing. Soon you'll be able to take all your perfected segments and link them together into a very smooth motion.
Like learning anything it's best to build on what we know. Unfortunatley many of us don't know much about what we are doing....we just think that if we do a lot more of it we'll get better. But better at what?
I hope that makes sense to someone other that me. It's late and time for bed. All the best.
Dave
ZippRider
04-02-2005, 07:15 AM
My 0.02 only.
Seat height: Too high? Too low? Just right? For me there is one seat height that works and if I'm not on it I pedal squares.
Set back: For me KOPS is good for spinning but I can't generate any power for climbing like this. 1cm behind KOPS is a good compromise that lets me spin comfortably at 110rpm but also generate reasonable power. Any further back and it's squares again.
One legged exercises on the trainer: Helps isolate strength and flexibility imbalances.
Rollers: If you are not smooth you'll probably fall off.
Coach: See if you can find a coach who will ride with you on the road and critique your form. S/he may spot something that you've missed. In my experience fitters seem to only work with a stationary bike indoors. I just don't get how they can replicate all the forces a body sees when the bike is in motion using this method.
good luck.
I think CS124 is correct. Positioning has a lot to do with pedaling circles. If you seat heigth and set back are not in the right position you are trying to over correct the problem. If the seat is adjusted in the right position then pedaling will become smoother.
KOP plus / minus position is NOT the same for every rider, you need to find your own "sweet spot" by trying different set back locations.
Zipp
cycleman_21
04-02-2005, 07:40 AM
Mr DK,that all makes sense to me,I used to play a lot of golf and just like that, poor practice makes for poor shotmaking,visualization also helps me
a lot,I picture wearing a hoop and trying to pedal around it when I'm not
just daydreaming,seems to help me get stronger and smoother but I'm not much for out of the saddle stuff,I can not figure how to stay smooth with it.
just get real tired faster.
RC
David Kirk
04-02-2005, 07:51 AM
I think if there is a secret to being smooth out of the saddle is to not let your center of mass rise and fall with each pedal stroke. Most folks tend to pick thier body up and set it down onto the pedal. Then they have to pick it up again.....this takes too much energy.
If you picture you center of mass being at the same elevation of the road while to are out of the saddle that will help. If it rises and falls then you are doing too much work. Make sure to scoop your foot back at the bottom of the stroke and to not stand with you full wieght on it there. It takes some practice but it really works.
Dave
I think if there is a secret to being smooth out of the saddle is to not let your center of mass rise and fall with each pedal stroke. Most folks tend to pick thier body up and set it down onto the pedal. Then they have to pick it up again.....this takes too much energy.
Question, maybe a dumb one. Isn't the point of riding out of the saddle to increase power (or torque or something) by taking advantage of your body weight? Wouldn't that require allowing the body weight to fall into the pedal somewhat, requiring raising it back up again? If not, why not just ride seated all the time?
On the original question, I remember doing one legged drills one year and they helped somewhat, but they're such a bloody drag to do - just no fun at all. Riding a fixie seemed to do wonders for me and it's FUN also. So I stick with that. I'm getting lazier about it in my dotage, but the more I manage to ride the fixie in the winter, the smoother I feel on my geared bikes in the spring.
-Ray
David Kirk
04-02-2005, 08:54 AM
Not a dumb question at all. I hope I can answer it. It's much easier to show than it is to explain.
Yes, you are using your body weight to help turn the crank. The problem is that many folks continue to push down on the pedal down until the bottom of the stroke. Near the bottom of the stroke the crank isn't going down much but it sure is going back. So why not pull back back on it? This is the scooping motion I wrote of. I think that this skill, or lack thereof, is one of the main reasons bikes have gotten stiffer and stiffer of the years. The stiff frame is nessessary to deal with the side load placed on it by the rider pushing down with full force until the bottom of the stroke or even after. Sean kelly didn't have this issue on a bike that was "too flexy" for your average Cat 4 but was fine enough for him. His fit was funny but his stroke was pure genius. But I digress in a big way...........
The body weight can be placed on top of the pedal and not be moved up and down with each stroke IF the leg is extended at the right time. Picture it like a stairmaster machine. Your legs go up and down with your full body weight on them but your center of mass stays at the same hieght. It's all a matter of timing.
Let me know if I din't explain that well.
Dave
Big Dan
04-02-2005, 09:45 AM
Don't want to break anybody's heart but........there's really no shortcuts.
I said miles and more miles, that was the advice given to me years ago by an old wise cycling man.
You can get computers, videos and other gadgets in your basement , but the proof comes out on the road riding. Take the beginning of the season for small gear spin rides or better yet, get on a fix gear bike.....
Look at the old guys riding out old bikes and check how smooth most of them are.............
Good luck.......... :bike:
dirtdigger88
04-02-2005, 10:06 AM
Fixed-gear on rollers.
I am not sure I see why this would be that hard? I realize that depends on your gear selection but you dont really coast on rollers so a fixie wouldn't be that hard- I dont think?
Jason
Big Dan
04-02-2005, 10:12 AM
DD, just wear a helmet and make sure you are not pointing in the direction of your plasma TV.......... :D
Not a dumb question at all. I hope I can answer it. It's much easier to show than it is to explain.
Yes, you are using your body weight to help turn the crank. The problem is that many folks continue to push down on the pedal down until the bottom of the stroke. Near the bottom of the stroke the crank isn't going down much but it sure is going back. So why not pull back back on it? This is the scooping motion I wrote of. I think that this skill, or lack thereof, is one of the main reasons bikes have gotten stiffer and stiffer of the years. The stiff frame is nessessary to deal with the side load placed on it by the rider pushing down with full force until the bottom of the stroke or even after. Sean kelly didn't have this issue on a bike that was "too flexy" for your average Cat 4 but was fine enough for him. His fit was funny but his stroke was pure genius. But I digress in a big way...........
The body weight can be placed on top of the pedal and not be moved up and down with each stroke IF the leg is extended at the right time. Picture it like a stairmaster machine. Your legs go up and down with your full body weight on them but your center of mass stays at the same hieght. It's all a matter of timing.
Let me know if I din't explain that well.
Dave
No, very clear actually. Thanks. And, ironically, I think I actually do it the way you describe until I'm really wasted late in a long hard ride, at which point, I ride the sucker all the way to the bottom of the stroke because it's all I can do.
george
04-02-2005, 11:37 AM
Focus on pushing down and pulling up throughout the entire stroke. Focus between 12:00 and 3:00, then between 3:00 and 6:00, then between 6:00 and 9:00, then between 9:00 and 12:00. As your riding make up intervals anywhere from 15 to 60 seconds. Also at the very bottom of your stroke (at 6:00) visualize that you are scraping mud off the bottom of your shoes! :)
Climb01742
04-02-2005, 11:48 AM
dave k., is "scooping" your foot at 6 oclock the same as imagining scraping mud off? the word "scooping" confuses me a little. many thanks.
ps: saddle will be fedex'd monday. ;)
woolly
04-02-2005, 12:20 PM
I am not sure I see why this would be that hard? I realize that depends on your gear selection but you dont really coast on rollers so a fixie wouldn't be that hard- I dont think?
Jason
Nope, no coasting either way. But the few times I've ridden the fixer on the rollers, I could REALLY tell when I wasn't pedalling smoothly. This probably also had something to do with the fixer having a bit lower gearing that what I would normally ride w/ my geared bike on rollers. Gotta keep those wheels spinning to make it easier to stay upright & stable.
I have absolutely no idea whether this helps with "real world" cycling or not - I just sometimes look for ways to mix things up in the cold/dark season that will make ANY type of indoor cycling interesting enough to get my a$$ off the couch. The thing I didn't like about the fixee/roller combo was that it made it even harder (for me, anyway) to move around a bit to prevent numbness & discomfort from setting in, if ya know what I mean. Short duration roller sessions were the key for me.
Now, no-handed fixed-gear riding on some Kreitler Hot Dog rollers, there's some big fun for somebody (I don't mean me). :D
Hard Fit
04-02-2005, 12:42 PM
I guess my question would be, what do you mean by smoothing out your pedal stroke? Are you at the point, where you can't even do a one-legged drill? Or, are you at the point where you just want to get better?
If you are at the first level, I found the description found in the Lance Armstrong Performance Program book helpful. Before that I never had been able to pedal with one leg. (I am sure there are other ways, but it worked for me.) To get the motion ingrained into my muscles, I basically split the learning into the top stroke and the bottom stroke. At first, I just did the top stroke action. Then I just did the bottom stroke action. Then, I put the two together. It took a while to get the muscles to learn to do it automatically, but it worked.
David Kirk
04-02-2005, 12:49 PM
Hey Mr. Climb,
Yep...the scooping ( I have no idea where I got that term but I've used it for 20 years) is the same as scraping the dog poop off your shoe.
Later,
Dave
lnomalley
04-02-2005, 03:54 PM
1) ride on the track. that should smooth you out.
2) saddle height and cleat placement in order (q-factor, wedges etc)?
3) fit dialed in/fore aft ok for your leg length and style?
4) is there a hitch in your stroke.... ask yourself what you are achieving/compensating with the extraneous movement?:
i.t. bands tight in your thighs?
it could be that you need to do some wieght training to stengthen a weak muscle group (including your core muscles.. the better my core fitness the sleeker my stroke), or that you are compensating for something fit wise.
mostly .. pedaling isnt an automatic thing.. niether is cycling.. when i am out in the winter doing my base miles i am not sitting on my bike disconnected from my body, i am consciously working an a smooth pedal stroke, keeping my hips aligned over my knees over my ankle and i am thinking with every revolution about being quiet on the bike and efficient. you cant' be disconnected and smooth. its a skill. you dont sit on a bike and pedal.. you learn to ride it and its a lifelong conscious kind of reaching towards mastery. think while you pedal. people sit on bikes and pedal and think that's all that is involved.
use a mirror on your trainer and look at yourself. sit and spin at a high cadence to see where the wobbly bits are....you are the one that should have insight on your body, figure out what you are up too, and then knock it off.
Skrawny
04-02-2005, 10:04 PM
Lots of good advice I'll try to put to work. :beer:
Again, it has been a pleasure to be a figurative fly on a virutal wall...
-s
andy mac
04-04-2005, 10:42 PM
i went and saw the physio for the australian olympic team a few years ago. she mainly works with slow bums like me, i guess we pay her bills!
here's an article she wrote you may find helpful. i had wasted hundreds, probably thousands with so called 'experts'.
she id'd my problem in 2 minutes and had me on the road to recovery fast.
cheers,
andy.
andy mac
04-04-2005, 10:48 PM
seems the attachment didn't work.
here's the website. lots of great pdf articles on a range of topics from a true cycling expert...
http://www.topbike.com.au/physio.htm
cheers all,
andy.
slowgoing
04-04-2005, 10:51 PM
just concentrate on pedaling smoother.
M_A_Martin
04-04-2005, 11:42 PM
I have a tidbit to add...STRETCH your hip flexors...
As some of you know I'm recovering from knee surgery and they let me back on the bike. This is all well and good, but certain muscles are still learning to fire and whatnot. Right now my pedal stroke sucks, is all jerky, and absolutly not a thing of beauty...especially over the top, there's been a catch. Today, we figured one of my many problems out.
Saturday, I stood up to pedal across the street at a light and I couldn't get my leg to come up...I'm not talking about trying to lift the leg so the other doesn't work, my leg just wouldn't come up! We've been adamant about stretching everything else out during this recovery, but we left the flexors alone because they were having other issues. So, my flexors that we've been strengthening, actually needed lots of stretching. We did that today at PT.
Tonight on my bike ride, while my pedal stroke still isn't "smooth" it does actually go AROUND! Yay!
So remember to stretch those hip flexors!
davids
04-05-2005, 08:45 AM
I have a tidbit to add...
I picked up the '05 Campagnolo catalog last month, and was disproportionately amused to see them misspell "tidbit" as "titbit." Now, every time I see "tidbit", I giggle. Cue Beavis and Butthead...
Sorry, just had to share. :p
The Topbike reference is very helpful for a novice like myself - thanks.
Does riding a stationary bike help or hinder the pedal stroke one uses on a bike?
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