Posting Directly from Stan to Hear Your Feedback

[Serotta_Stan]

Pete had already put this up for me, but I wanted to post again so that I could hear your feedback directly. Thanks in advance.

To the loyal users of and contributors to the Serotta forum-
As you may have heard, my wife Bonnie and I recently joined the Serotta family. I have known Ben since the early 90’s when we were both sponsors of the Coors Light Cycling Team. I have worked in many facets of the cycling industry since then, but Ben and I have always kept in touch. Then last year, after countless conversations, it became clear Bonnie and I had an incredible opportunity to help lead the Serotta brand, which has both a storied history and tremendous potential for the future.
Since relocating to Saratoga, we have been welcomed with open arms and I’m pleased to report many of the great things happening with the brand. We have a terrific team at the company and Ben has been freed up to focus once again on the product side of the business with exciting new products for 2011 to be launched later this calendar year. In addition, Serotta is now exceeding all previous standards of custom bike-building quality and efficiency. We are strengthening our dealer network and starting this summer, we will be the exclusive US distributors of Catlike helmets and ETXEONDO performance cycling apparel; creating a similarly positioned collection of prestige “Founder” brands. Under the leadership of Director of Applied Cycling Science Paraic McGlynn and Executive Director Kathy Krumme, the Serotta International Cycling Institute (SICI) continues to grow and thrive.
We want to thank you for your continued support of Ben and the Serotta brand. Just as we intend to continue to build the world’s finest, custom hand-built bikes, we also intend to maintain this forum as an autonomous platform to discuss all manner of cycling-related topics. We don’t have the bandwidth to check in on the forum all the time, but we do value your feedback so please share it with us.
If you are also part of the Facebook and Twitter social networks, we encourage you to follow us there: http://www.facebook.com/SerottaSport and http://twitter.com/serottasport. We’re also regularly updating our new blog and news feeds on the re-launched www.serotta.com. Please stop by for a visit.
Thanks for all your support!

Sincerely,
Stan Mavis, President

[Louis]

Thanks for all your support!

Hi Stan,

Thanks for your support of this great brand and our little corner of the Serotta world.

Good Luck
Louis

[csm]

welcome.

[flickwet]

Glad I found out about the facebook thing well done Stan and "welcome to the monkey house"

[Blue Jays]

Very nice.
Welcome, Stan.

[Elefantino]

Welcome, Stan!

Please keep Serotta from getting too big. We like being member of a small but superior corner of the cycling world.

And I think you folks need to hire an outside consultant to test large frames. :banana:

[Serotta_Stan]

Thanks for the comments. I can assure you all, we are focused on taking the same great attention to detail which Ben created over 38 years and are applying it to the rest of the business. Most importantly, the team is free-ing up Ben and our carbon fiber secret weapon, Mike Lopez at the Serotta Composites Facility, to continue to evolve Serotta product to a higher level. We also won't forget all the real steel and TI lovers. Due to the nature of what we do, we will always be a niche business, and we are already moving toward a self sustaining model which insulates us from the pressure of growing and doing things which are not always in the best for the brand. We appreciate all your help and encouragement. Thanks for riding the best bicycles in the world; Serotta and please keep your constructive feedback coming. Also, please come visit us at anytime at the "Mothership" in Saratoga Springs to see all the great things which are happening first hand.......and take in some of these incredible riding roads. Stan

[chuckroast]

I have been enjoying the updates on the Facebook page.

[Smiley]

Stan, ur a Trekkie fan, words like Mothership, but to be a true Trekkie you should have used best bikes in the Universe :) not world, what would the Cleons say.

[Ahneida Ride]

Stan

I be up to visit the MotherShip ...

Consider yourself warned .... :p ;)

Ahneida ....

[Serotta_Stan]

....we may be able to say that we have the best bikes in the Universe, but it is still to be determined. In the meantime, we will stay focused on continuing to make ours better combined with our ability to best serve our loyal Serotta riders.

[djg]

Cool, and welcome.

Are we gonna see custom team kit versions of the EXTEONDO?

[Serotta_Stan]

We will be offering a Serotta / ETXEONDO custom kit for you all to sport proudly at the Fall rides in both men's and women's sizing. Delivery will be late July/Early August. Thanks for your patience. The team at Serotta has done a ton since early April and we keep on knocking off great things each and everyday; some totally apparent like the marketing activation on the WEB site, social media, etc. and some not so apparent like new computer systems and product commercialization calendars. Please keep the constructive feedback and requests coming!

[Ahneida Ride]

Hey ...

Well I finally had the unique pleasure of meeting Stan today ... :beer:

All ... I can say is that Stan is the Man. :banana:

You heard it here first !!!!! ;) :D

[SoCalSteve]

Stan,

Will you please answer this gentleman's question here. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=75254)

Thank you!

Steve

[Ahneida Ride]

I keep mentioning to the powers that be that soft goods should return.

[SoCalSteve]

I keep mentioning to the powers that be that soft goods should return.

Answered here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=795506&postcount=2)

[Pete Serotta]

Stan and the team are moving forward on soft goods... Stan and Bonnie have a wonderful background in these areas for very nice items :)

[Ti Designs]

Stan,

I'm pretty sure this is the feedback you don't want to read as you start up your business relationship with Serotta, so I'll suggest that you print out a copy and store it away somewhere so you can read it a few years from now.

I've put around 50,000 miles on my Serotta, it's probably the best bike I've ever owned. Everything I've wanted to do, the bike has been up to the challenge. In other words, it's far more bike than I really needed - maybe by a factor of 10. The frame is a La Corsa, the custom version of the Fierte Ti, which has been dropped off the Serotta line. Your focus is in making the best bikes, which means what was the best is no longer good enough. So, what was 10 times more bike than I need has been replaced with 100 times more bike than I need, at a price I can't afford.

The Serotta brand has passed me by, the quality and performance on their bikes is beyond what I need. I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel that way. With ever higher standards, the number of people in the market for a new Serotta decreases. I have to ask when that market gets too small to sustain the company. If the automotive industry is any indication, there have been many ultra high end makers who have run into troubled times with a down turn in the economy. At first there are investors who are willing to take a risk on a company turn around and their ownership of a piece of that. In the end many of them are purchased by larger makers who produce mainstream cars, mostly for the name and the reputations it brings with it.

Leaving this forum and the frame builder makes me sad. Back when I was racing and just starting in the bike industry, the Serotta name was special. We sold lots of italian frames, all of which showed with gaps in the brazing, out of alignment with chips in the paint. Serottas oozed quality right out of the box. They were the kind of frame you could check alignment right in front of the customer 'cause you knew it was dead on. Their technology with the flaired tubing and S bend stays was so far ahead of the rest that other frame builders would be seen checking them out with measuring tools - I'm not kidding. Then it happened, Ben hinted that if they ever did a full carbon frame it would be all in-house. Their hand was forced by the forward march of progress - Specialized, Giant and Trek all had carbon frames, they needed something better.

I seem to be the one person here who has kept sight of one simple little fact - riders haven't really gotten any better. What was better than it needed to be 5 years ago probably still is. With that it's fair to say that I have nothing of value to say going forward, so I'm outta here.


Ed

[Pete Serotta]

Steve Fairchild is back at SEROTTA at Direcior of Sales and Marketing. He as well as Stan and Bonnie would like to understand more from Ti.


Market forces really have significant forced on frame directions. Just looking at the Tour D France and all the carbon hi tech bikes this year really is an eye opener. Even such things as DI2 from Shimano and even Campy 11 speed have march on.

Costs of complete branded (TREK, GIANT, SPECIALIZED bikes and even good bib shorts have shocked me at times.


(Even the price of cars on the road have marched upwards.) An ACCORD EX-L is around 30K


THe "special" family and friends are still the most important to me. I miss Sir TI and others.

Additionally many new folks have entered into the forum and friends that are wonderful to meet and ride with , (I am slower by the year.... :confused: )

Warm regards PETE

[93legendti]

...I miss Sir TI and others.
...Warm regards PETE
I always paid attention to Ti Designs' advice. I hope he comes back.

[jlwdm]

Since people are already missing Ti after his last post I am going to provide some realism and represent the other side.

Ti's negative attitude and belief that there was only one way to train, or do anything - his way - will not be missed by me. He even finished his last post with saying he is the one person here who realizes something.

I also think it was inappropriate to make his post in a Sticky about Stan.

I wish I wasn't posting in Stan's Sticky either but I do not want the pro Ti comments to stand alone.

Jeff

[Serotta_Stan]

I appreciate all the great public and private messages with feedback for Serotta. The constant in all the messages is the passion. There is always something constructive and positive in that. One of the opportunities we have discovered in listening to all of you is that a large majority of people point to our SE full custom bikes and try to compare them to production bikes from other companies. I apologize, but it is much like comparing apples and fish. Production box bikes have certainly improved over the years, but not to the extent of what we do with the tune-ability to each rider Serotta SE level bikes offer.
There are a multitude of custom framebuilders and we have not tried them all, but I do know that we have people like TI Designs riding and documenting their time on their Serotta's year after year after year. We don't think that too many other companies can make the same claim. Ben has always been maniacal about quality. The fact we carefully create and craft our own carbon fiber products in our company owned Serotta Composites Facility is perfect testimony. We don't "farm" anything out to hit a market perceived price point and potentially compromise quality. You can never have enough bikes, but it becomes easier to justify the purchase when you amortize a "Serotta Lifetime Bike" and everything you will experience.
At the same time, we have been listening to you all and our accounts on making the entry level more attainable for more people to access and experience the brand. We will launch by the end of July a brand new collection of Serotta Ready Custom bikes. These "stock" frames are based on 38 years of building custom bikes and feature performance and race geometry options. If someone can stay within the geometry chart and fantastic new graphics in this group, you will be able to settle onto your new Serotta, equiped with componentry you would be proud of putting on any bike and compatible with any Serotta, starting at an MSRP of just under $4000 for a complete Serotta.
Stay tuned!

[jblande]

:beer: :beer: :beer:


a great decision!!!


:beer: :beer: :beer:

[SoCalSteve]

I appreciate all the great public and private messages with feedback for Serotta. The constant in all the messages is the passion. There is always something constructive and positive in that. One of the opportunities we have discovered in listening to all of you is that a large majority of people point to our SE full custom bikes and try to compare them to production bikes from other companies. I apologize, but it is much like comparing apples and fish. Production box bikes have certainly improved over the years, but not to the extent of what we do with the tune-ability to each rider Serotta SE level bikes offer.
There are a multitude of custom framebuilders and we have not tried them all, but I do know that we have people like TI Designs riding and documenting their time on their Serotta's year after year after year. We don't think that too many other companies can make the same claim. Ben has always been maniacal about quality. The fact we carefully create and craft our own carbon fiber products in our company owned Serotta Composites Facility is perfect testimony. We don't "farm" anything out to hit a market perceived price point and potentially compromise quality. You can never have enough bikes, but it becomes easier to justify the purchase when you amortize a "Serotta Lifetime Bike" and everything you will experience.
At the same time, we have been listening to you all and our accounts on making the entry level more attainable for more people to access and experience the brand. We will launch by the end of July a brand new collection of Serotta Ready Custom bikes. These "stock" frames are based on 38 years of building custom bikes and feature performance and race geometry options. If someone can stay within the geometry chart and fantastic new graphics in this group, you will be able to settle onto your new Serotta, equiped with componentry you would be proud of putting on any bike and compatible with any Serotta, starting at an MSRP of just under $4000 for a complete Serotta.
Stay tuned!

I hope you will have frame-fork options as well.

[brenick]

I really loved the S(maller) geometry on the Fiertes. I think Serotta had the only stock bikes that fit women right (or at least this woman's body). The new "performance" geometry for the custom ready bikes appears to have a longer top tube.

It would be nice to have a picture for your geometry chart, showing what your measurements are. i.e. is the top tube measurement virtual or actual.

[Serotta_Stan]

Please check out our Ready Custom Geometry Chart in the specifications of any of the Ready Custom Bikes. Please let the Serotta Concierge know if you need more information.

[Jason E]

Please check out our Ready Custom Geometry Chart in the specifications of any of the Ready Custom Bikes. Please let the Serotta Concierge know if you need more information.

Um... Is that the launch?

[Serotta_Stan]

I apologize for any confusion. Not the launch...only trying to answer a previous posting about the Ready Custom geometries. When we go live for 2011 it will be up on the WEB and have a news story attached. Stay tuned. Stan

Um... Is that the launch?

[Jason E]

This coming in August? Excited to see...

[Serotta_Stan]

We have an outside designer in-house right now helping us put some of the finishing touches on 2011. Most likely we will have everything ready in September for the shows; soft launch at EuroBike (early September) and the full on for Interbike (late September) and going forward with much of the line available immediately.

[Ti Designs]

Ti's negative attitude and belief that there was only one way to train, or do anything - his way - will not be missed by me. He even finished his last post with saying he is the one person here who realizes something.


I can see how my attitude would seem negative to some - the ones who don't know me. My message on this forum, "learn how to ride" or "learn how to climb" could be seen one of two ways. Either 1) you suck - which is clearly very negative, or 2) learn how to do it. If that's a negative attitude, our education system is in big trouble...

In trying to make better riders I've always struggled with this idea that education isn't needed - it is. Take any other activity, juggling for instance, the ability to do it is pass/fail. If the objects stay in the air you can juggle, if not you can't. With cycling, failure to ride well is much harder to identify. The pedals go 'round in the same path no matter how or where you push.

Education in cycling is lacking badly. There are lots of one day seminars offered by local clubs or shops, and most people think that's about all they can do. Can you give me one other example of a real one day education? Try to teach someone how to juggle in one day - good luck with that. The learning process is instruction followed by practice followed by more instruction followed by more practice - there's a time element there missing from those one day seminars. This was put in sharp focus when my shop ran a bike racing 101 seminar and one woman overlapped her front wheel, crashed and broke her wrist. She then had 6 weeks where she couldn't put weight on her hand, but she still wanted to ride. I put her on a trainer in a huge gear and coached her on climbing technique where all the weigh was on the pedals. 6 weeks later when she could ride again she found that she could climb hills like never before. The one person who learned something from that seminar was the one who stumbled onto the right way of learning.

My issue with Serotta is the focus on the bike without giving the rider much thought. There are two reasons people buy sports cars: 1) to have a car who's handling matches the skill of the driver, or 2) to make up for something the driver is lacking. Same holds true with bikes. BMW has their Ultimate Driving School, Porsche sponsors PCA meets, VW/Audi offers discounts on a series of driving schools. Serotta has SICI, which is all about fit, but can't claim to have produced any good riders - once again, it's all about the bike...

Having done fittings for years at my shop, I've started to incorporate a certain amount of coaching - teaching riders about posture on the bike and putting the weight on the pedals, not the bars, and use of different muscle groups. Having seen many of the riders I've fit on the road, I can say for certain that either I'm a horrible teacher, or one hour doesn't cut it.

So, my feedback for Stan is this: Balance the system, give the people looking for the best ride the opportunity to match the bike with their own riding talent. Good riders buy more bikes and they advertise your product.


Ed

[Smiley]

Welcome Back Eddie we missed U :banana:

[Ti Designs]

Welcome Back Eddie we missed U :banana:

Not back, just frustrated at where the sport is going. Been talking about this with a number of people on PM, but it's going nowhere. Stan is very proud of what Serotta is doing in the area of fitting, but it more than happy to overlook the fact that it doesn't make it to the end user. Various examples of good riders on Serottas have been given, but for every one good rider there's 100 who spent just as much on a custom bike and lack good technique. I was at the Tour del Toga, I saw...

In a few weeks I get a flock of new riders known as next season's Harvard team. Some of these kids don't even own bikes, but they have a coach who is willing to ride with them three mornings a week in a program we call skills weeks. By next spring they'll be better riders than most of the people I saw at the open house. Y'all have an open invitation to come on any of those morning rides...

So, what does Serotta have to offer?

[csm]

While I enjoyed most of tidesign's comments and posts, I puzzle over why people feel the need to tell everyone they're leaving.
just strikes me as a plea for attention or something.

[CNY rider]

So, what does Serotta have to offer?

What is it you're hoping they'll offer?
I just got back from 40 miles on my Legend. Had a great time. Well aware that my technique leaves much to be desired. Still had a great time and will do it again at the first available opportunity.
Are they going to send someone over to coach me?
What are you suggesting? :confused:

[Ti Designs]

I just got back from 40 miles on my Legend. Had a great time. Well aware that my technique leaves much to be desired. Still had a great time and will do it again at the first available opportunity.

Question: Was it with a group or solo?

I respect anyone who gets on a bike and rides, but I've noticed that there are lots of people who refuse to ride with groups because they don't see themselves as being good enough. I offer to ride with many of the people I fit on bikes, most don't take up the offer for the same reason. That's kinda like not going to school 'cause the teacher knows more than you do - why don't people see that?


Are they going to send someone over to coach me?
What are you suggesting? :confused:

I'm saying that making the best bikes and having the best fit still falls short. I'm going to spend the fall and winter coaching my riders, by the spring a $15,000 bike with a $500 fitting (using lasers and video capture) can't make up the difference. There are endless threads about what the best components, wheels, tires, frames... none of that makes as large a difference as the rider. So why aren't more programs offered???

John Allis started coaching the Harvard team in 1980. For 30 years he was out there riding, and producing more good riders than I could ever hope to. In all that time he's found one other person willing to do the same job - what's wrong with that picture??? The real answer is very simple, it's not profitable. Most coaches want to charge individual riders at least $50 to be on the bike coaching. It takes hundreds of hours to produce one good rider - do the math. Who can afford that? OK, let's take another example: Baseball, more specifically Little League. If parents expected to get paid $50/hour to coach the team, baseball would die out as a sport in two or three seasons. Yet they keep doing it, not just for a day or a weekend (almost all of the cycling seminars I've found were one or two days at best) but for the whole season.

The skills weeks program I'm running this fall with the Harvard kids isn't rocket science. It takes a program, a coach, a bit of help and riders who are dedicated to learning (there's an advantage to coaching Harvard - they understand the dedication bit). Coaching someone is an investment in time, I can't tell you how much it sucks to start working with someone only to have them give it up... The skills themselves are nothing new to any experienced rider - climbing, drafting, cornering, contact... Just like teaching any subject, it's not enough for the coach to know how to do it, they have to be able to explain how it's done to others.

So why can't the same program be run all over the place? It's simply that nobody sees the need for it, the laws of supply and demand take care of the rest. I hope that by saying new riders with good coaching will be better than most riders on this forum, and no amount of money thrown at the bike shop is going to make up for that, I hope to create some demand.

If Stan or Ben or the folks from SICI wanted to run such a program, I would jump at the chance to help out.

[Pete Serotta]

I do not agree that companies having the funds nor the time to do as he suggest.

Manufactures today do not really have the funds to donate to an in depth education and I am not even counting, or do I know about, the insurance they would need to pay for, as well as personnel, product, and transportation to do it..

Porsche and BMW charge you for the education either at the MFT level or the CLUB level, (I am members of both as others I know friends are to), Less than 10% go to the track or South Carolina for instruction.). Would I like to go to SC to the plant and pay for the training. YES but in the past there has not been time and the $1000 plus charge is not something I prefer to spend.
Ken Robb would be an expert in describing this for he is a track instructor.


AT the cyclist dealer levels I have seen some education - CYCLESPORT has some new comer rides as does some shops here in RALEIGH> They do not have competitive training unless you are a member of their race club. In my limited view most people do not have the desire for this in depth training, especially those that are not in teens and early 20s who would want to be a racer.

Most riders just want to enjoy riding on their limited free time and at certain
locations.

Glad to see Ti back posting and sharing his views and knowledge. PETE

[CNY rider]

Question: Was it with a group or solo?

.
I rode with pal and all around great guy manet.
He's got tremendous skills on the bike and I feel very comfortable riding with him. I don't really go looking for other riding partners and i have no racing aspirations.
Ultimately I'm just a 40 year old guy that gets a kick out of riding his bike.
I also love being able to ride beautiful bikes like my Legend and my Mariposa.
So Ben built the company, sold it to me, employed some skilled folks to build it and hopefully made a profit too.
Why does he have some obligation beyond that? And if I wanted more instruction or coaching is he supposed to send someone out to rural, middle-of-nowhere upstate NY to teach me?

Honestly I enjoy your posts, hope you continue to post, but still can't figure out exactly what it is you want Ben to do. :confused:

[pbjbike]

I rode with pal and all around great guy manet.
He's got tremendous skills on the bike and I feel very comfortable riding with him. I don't really go looking for other riding partners and i have no racing aspirations.
Ultimately I'm just a 40 year old guy that gets a kick out of riding his bike.
I also love being able to ride beautiful bikes like my Legend and my Mariposa.
So Ben built the company, sold it to me, employed some skilled folks to build it and hopefully made a profit too.
Why does he have some obligation beyond that? And if I wanted more instruction or coaching is he supposed to send someone out to rural, middle-of-nowhere upstate NY to teach me?

Honestly I enjoy your posts, hope you continue to post, but still can't figure out exactly what it is you want Ben to do. :confused:

It's about being reactive to the desires of the marketplace. TiD gets it, IMO. He's put in the time and has the experience, and if you don't understand that, you're missing something. I've worked for two bike companies that could not react quick enough or be responsive to the marketplace, and went down. There are dozens of folks who would work for Serotta for a pittance, (or for free), to coach and train Juniors and anyone else willing to put in the time. Serotta is missing out here. Take the lead and reap the rewards. :beer:

[Jason E]

So Serotta should develop a program that develops standardized training and coaching on a national basis for little or no money; then train individuals in a loose parallel to their fitter program, expecting these coaches to work for free similar to little league?

Before we get into things like the entrance fees for cycling [equipment related], training of any capacity other than me schooling Ergott [no, not really] or two buddies messing around assumes a lot of liability on open roads, but also closed roads should someone fall, get hurt.

I think TI's idea, though not hashed out is on the surface good, but I think it is pretty rough to say CNY "in missing it".

How exactly would this work? It's easy to push the responsibility onto a known figure in the cycling world to take on the noble act, but it is not fair. They've got bills to pay like everyone else.

How would this, with some real examples, work? Y'all seem to have some ideas.

[Pete Serotta]

As we as individuals want AND then have a drink and enjoy each others company. Thanks pete :beer:

[pbjbike]

Oh Lord, just trying to be constructive, and offer a few tips...J-man, good to see someone asking questions. Our economy seems headed more and more toward "service". I was attempting to point out an area that would not cost "S" an arm and a leg, and where they could make headway on the ground here , where an Asian based company could not. Is that OK or offensive? Do you have any suggestions? Or are you just a gadfly? I'll sign off on this thread as it seems I've already aroused Pete's ire, sorry, Chief. :beer:




So Serotta should develop a program that develops standardized training and coaching on a national basis for little or no money; then train individuals in a loose parallel to their fitter program, expecting these coaches to work for free similar to little league?

Before we get into things like the entrance fees for cycling [equipment related], training of any capacity other than me schooling Ergott [no, not really] or two buddies messing around assumes a lot of liability on open roads, but also closed roads should someone fall, get hurt.

I think TI's idea, though not hashed out is on the surface good, but I think it is pretty rough to say CNY "in missing it".

How exactly would this work? It's easy to push the responsibility onto a known figure in the cycling world to take on the noble act, but it is not fair. They've got bills to pay like everyone else.

How would this, with some real examples, work? Y'all seem to have some ideas.

[Jason E]

Tone always gets lost on these things. No rumblings here, Pete.

Pbj, you guys are not offensive with your ideas, I'm just not seeing structure. Gadfly? I think not. Y'all posed the point that they should do xyz, I was just asking how, feasibly, would they? I don't have suggestions, it was not my idea, and as much as it is novel, I don't think it would work.

Here however is a great place to express the model y'all have, and I'd love to hear it.

[pbjbike]

I don't have suggestions, it was not my idea, and as much as it is novel, I don't think it would work.SNIP

That's my point, you don't have any ideas, and are just stirring the pot. Structure? Go out with TiD every morning before dawn and train with some newbies, then make a derisive comment.

[Jason E]

That is not constructive. Let's try this one more time.

I asked what substance your concept has. You did not answer with a working model, just a partial quote. That does not make me lacking for ideas. It is not my job to come up with ideas for something I do not see as workable, though novel. Pretend for a second we are not on a forum, but instead sitting down with a beer, perhaps some chili. Perhaps some chili in a bread bowl.

Ok, now, tell me about your idea, how would it work? You posed it, show why any company may under take such a thing in a workable fashion that does not burn resource, because ultimately, they need to feed people and such. Please tell us about the market place model you refer to that is yearning for this, the boat that Serotta is missing by not doing.... What exactly?

Maybe you should reread the post. There was not a derisive comment in anything I said.

[titans]

I miss riding with Manet aka Buckbee....ever since he took my Sachs for a long test ride and then bought one for himself...great guy and great rider.

I think riding with more experienced riders and picking their brains and chatting up a storm on what to do and what not to do is probably how many of us started out. Then as our bike handling skills improved we ventured into a mass group ride and eventually into race events. No amount of skill training is going to get you ready for the varying dynamics of a group ride or a race except learning from those who have gone through it and then going through it yourself. Bike clubs and their riders/racers I believe have more of a responsibility to offer skills training than these high end bike builders. I was lucky enough to have learned under a core of GS Park Ridge racers who took the time to show me the ropes. Maybe builders who sell through local shops can offer a skill training session through that club. But lets say someone buys a high end bike directly from the builder who doesn't have a network of local shop dealers. Logistically a skills training program just can't be done. I agree that there should be some sort of skills training but it should start with our local clubs. But we have to remember that most of us enjoy riding our high end bikes whether we get the most out of it or not...and isn't that the most important thing? Just saying... :)

[CNY rider]

It's about being reactive to the desires of the marketplace. TiD gets it, IMO. He's put in the time and has the experience, and if you don't understand that, you're missing something. I've worked for two bike companies that could not react quick enough or be responsive to the marketplace, and went down. There are dozens of folks who would work for Serotta for a pittance, (or for free), to coach and train Juniors and anyone else willing to put in the time. Serotta is missing out here. Take the lead and reap the rewards. :beer:

OK, now I at least understand the idea.
Somebody in the bike business would have to figure out how to actually make that work. :beer:

[Ti Designs]

If we're talking about responsibilities of builders, how does fitting relate to using a torch? I've never understood the connection people make between fitter and builder, yet lots of people go to the frame builder for fitting - on this forum it's seen as the best fit possible. Doesn't Serotta have some sort of fitting program???

What Ben helped start, lots of other companies have jumped on. At first there was NECA with their Fit Kit, then people like Ben, who have some pull in the bike industry, started putting some real focus on bike fit. You can't read very far into the Serotta web site without reading about fit. You also can't swing a dead cat without hitting another fitting system - Specialized has a video capture fitting system, so do a dozen others, and the number is growing every day.

So, if one company said "our bikes are best with good riders on them" and started some small program, how would the others react? Nobody could expect Serotta to coach every rider out there, just like nobody expects BMW to produce every car out there. But there is a market out there, or at least I hope there is.

If it fails, it fails. Feel free to blame me. If it works you have better riders who understand the education process as it relates to cycling. I've worked with lots of new riders in the past who could now teach. As the sport grows, so does the market for high end frames.

And that's when they'll forget who's idea this was...

[Len J]

If we're talking about responsibilities of builders, how does fitting relate to using a torch? I've never understood the connection people make between fitter and builder, yet lots of people go to the frame builder for fitting - on this forum it's seen as the best fit possible. Doesn't Serotta have some sort of fitting program???

What Ben helped start, lots of other companies have jumped on. At first there was NECA with their Fit Kit, then people like Ben, who have some pull in the bike industry, started putting some real focus on bike fit. You can't read very far into the Serotta web site without reading about fit. You also can't swing a dead cat without hitting another fitting system - Specialized has a video capture fitting system, so do a dozen others, and the number is growing every day.

So, if one company said "our bikes are best with good riders on them" and started some small program, how would the others react? Nobody could expect Serotta to coach every rider out there, just like nobody expects BMW to produce every car out there. But there is a market out there, or at least I hope there is.

If it fails, it fails. Feel free to blame me. If it works you have better riders who understand the education process as it relates to cycling. I've worked with lots of new riders in the past who could now teach. As the sport grows, so does the market for high end frames.

And that's when they'll forget who's idea this was...


I've followed this discussion with interest and think Ti makes some thoughtful and interesting points.

To the question he raises above, I think there is a fundamental difference between fit and riding competency when it comes to association with a builder.

If I see a rider that is poorly fit on a custom bike, I immediately assign some responsibility for that to the builder........fit is a function of the bike itself as it interacts with the rider. OTOH, if I see someone with either poor rider competency or great competency, I attribute it to rider effort. I think most would do that.

I certainly don't think that Serotta or anyone else should reduce their focus on fit in order to focus on rider skills.

OTOH, like it or not, weird fits caused by lack of rider competency or dedication do reflect poorly on the brand. I've seen some pretty weirdly configured serotta's....and I think that contributes to the perception of Serotta being the bike for out of shape dentists (No slight intended, but I've heard that more often than I would like to...and I own 2 serottas & have owned a few others over the years)

Thought provoking.

Len

[Smiley]

Watch what you say about Dentists :)

I had to do some really bad designs to accomodate out of shape folks over the years, who has not ... we sell bikes for a living after all. But some folks get with the programe and get fitter as they ride and lose weight and some don't. They remain content to enjoy their expensive bikes. I don't fault either school of thought. I have a lawyer educator who came and saw me to re-fit a Cervelo RS and she was not in great shape at 57 years old. Based on my abilities to get her re-fit to ride her uncomfortable Cervelo she came back to me months later and I sold her a better for her fitting Serotta Classique with a few bells and whistles on it. Today she rides at 38 miles each outing where as she thought a 14 mile loop in the park was a huge effort. She always tells me how much she loves her Serotta. A great sucess story and if you saw her on her bike she would fail your first look test....BFD as she rides and is enjoying her new bike.

Don't get me started about the guy that over sold her the Cervelo :)

[Climb01742]

branding fitters as "serotta certified" is like branding snowflakes. can't be done. and it's been a huge and pointless waste of time and resources for serotta for years. ben was correct in identifying a problem. his mistake was in believing it could be solved.

yes, correct fit is a_huge_problem and challenge, but there is no standardized, reproduceable, quality-control-able way to deliver a solution. each fitter is an island upon him/herself. it is a delusion to see it any other way.

sorry for the heresy.

there are good fitters out. but they are good because of the work they, as individuals, have done and continue to do. not because they have the meaningless serotta certification.

the sooner serotta gives up chasing the delusion, the better. and instead, puts their resources into research and fabrication and maybe sponsorship and heaven knows, marketing with an idea behind it, the better as well.

[Len J]

branding fitters as "serotta certified" is like branding snowflakes. can't be done. and it's been a huge and pointless waste of time and resources for serotta for years. ben was correct in identifying a problem. his mistake was in believing it could be solved.

yes, correct fit is a_huge_problem and challenge, but there is no standardized, reproduceable, quality-control-able way to deliver a solution. each fitter is an island upon him/herself. it is a delusion to see it any other way.

sorry for the heresy.

there are good fitters out. but they are good because of the work they, as individuals, have done and continue to do. not because they have the meaningless serotta certification.

the sooner serotta gives up chasing the delusion, the better. and instead, puts their resources into research and fabrication and maybe sponsorship and heaven knows, marketing with an idea behind it, the better as well.


I agree and I disagree.

I think that a true quality based, no holds barred fitter certification backed up by teeth is very doable. I think doing it while still trying to sell bikes in quantity is not as easy.

Len

[Climb01742]

I agree and I disagree.

I think that a true quality based, no holds barred fitter certification backed up by teeth is very doable. I think doing it while still trying to sell bikes in quantity is not as easy.

Len

it's the same reason car manufacturers can't train and control car salesmen. they aren't employees. they don't have the power to hire and fire.

but beyond that, there are simply too many variables involved in fits. business 101 is: if you can't control it, don't make it a pillar of your brand.

serotta is a world-class fabricator. be that.

serotta has a heritage of product innovation. be that.

serotta has a record in racing. be that.

serotta has some, if fleeting, mystique. use that.

serotta has a living founder and a real factory in a real place, staffed with folks you care and build things with their hands. use that.

these are all authentic things that serotta can control. build on what you can control.

[Len J]

it's the same reason car manufacturers can't train and control car salesmen. they aren't employees. they don't have the power to hire and fire.

but beyond that, there are simply too many variables involved in fits. business 101 is: if you can't control it, don't make it a pillar of your brand.

serotta is a world-class fabricator. be that.

serotta has a heritage of product innovation. be that.

serotta has a record in racing. be that.

serotta has some, if fleeting, mystique. use that.

serotta has a living founder and a real factory in a real place, staffed with folks you care and build things with their hands. use that.

these are all authentic things that serotta can control. build on what you can control.


I disagree....they could do it, they choose not to take it as far as they could.

We certified installers at one business......if you couldn't be certified, and stay certified through rigorous audits and follow-up, you couldn't sell the product. And we actually enforced it. Over time, our company's certified fitters commanded a premium and we sold more product because of it....but we had to be rigorous in defense of it.

where is the post-fit audits that Serotta does?
Where do they publish the resuults?
Where are the de-certifications?
Which dealers are not allowed to sell serotta because of fit audit failures?

It's difficult and, you have to be committed to it. You have to be willing to walk away from a dealer that is selling volume because his fit audits show he's not committed to good fit. You can control it, but it's not free & it appears that Serotta has been unwilling or unable to pay the price.

As to your comment about business 101...I would term it differently...if you don't get more benefit from it re your brand than harm, then don't do it. I suspect that Serotta gets more business from the perception that their fitters are better than they lose because of bad fits.

IMO

Len

[Ti Designs]

Steering a thread is like herding cats...

I brought up their fitting program as an example of what can create a market to show that coaching riders could open the same. Ben and Stan are very proud of the direction that fitting has gone, as are the folks at SICI. As much as I disagree with fitting certifications (or coaching certifications for that matter), I would have to disagree strongly with Climb's point that it's not a point of marketing for a builder. Many of the new fitting systems are snake oil sales at best (can't sell snake oil without video capture these days) but the understanding of fitting is far better than it was 20 years ago.

[Climb01742]

the understanding of fitting is far better than it was 20 years ago.

you're right, ed. but the hurdle is consistency and whether a national group of fitters, all certified by serotta, give a consistent "product" and whether this "product" creates value for serotta. even within wheelworks, ed, there isn't consistency of end product.

how about a little experiment? stan does a little secret shopping. goes to five shops across america and gets five fits by five certified serotta fitters. i bet that not even two of the fits will be close to each other.

BTW, over the years, i've done this little experiment. five serotta fitters. five different fits. how does that add value to the brand?

[Serotta_Stan]

I have read with interest all the spirited posts in regard to FIT and rider development. TI Designs is totally correct about the lack of great programs to develop the riders. The industry needs more.

I am not a fitter, coach, nor profess to be one, but I hope that I do have pretty good listening skills.

I have been here only since April and have not seen a full cycle yet of the SICI FIT school, but I have gleaned the following. The innovation of the size cycle by Ben over 31 years ago was geared toward meeting the needs of an individual rider. This and other product innovations has spawned a tremendous amount of great cyclists on both Serotta and other brands due to the fact that they were on a properly sized and better handling bike. The latest SICI sizing cycle and the integration of the CompuTrainer and Dartfish analysis help further drive the ability to build a better handling machine for everyone who goes through it with a properly trained SICI Fitter.

Fortunately, there are a portion of SICI trained fitters who have taken the time to look at the total rider and not just the bike. We do have some great ones who are part of our "family". The result has been an impressive grass roots effort which truly has created great cyclists at all levels; whether it be a recreational rider training for a century or racer looking for an edge. Unfortunately, like in virtually every profession, there are some which are far better at the craft/science than others.

Personally, I would first applaud Ben for the vision in establishing SICI in the late 90's and making it an open; anyone can attend no matter what the brand affiliation, school to help spread proper fit or at least some knowledge verses the appalling lack of proper fit the former stand over height and reach alone or "eyeball" methodologies provided.

Is SICI perfect? Far from it, but it is an excellent platform from which we can continue to grow the complete cyclist. We have heard you and I have totally heard TI Designs. We have to prioritze at this time to make sure that we can execute.

Please bear with me as we make progress and perfect the customer service model at Serotta, free Ben to dream about product again (.....and there is some great stuff coming) produce an excellent line-up of product which exemplifies the epic Serotta quality and performance. Expanding the scope of SICI, with the help of people like TI Designs and others, is on the list and we will eventually help further drive the programs at an already contributing to the industry (probably more than any other program out there) SICI.

We will continue to listen. Thank-you so much for your passion and constructive feedback.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have been reading this thread with interest and have a few points.

There is a saying that "you can be right in a wrong way" and it is a shame that TID feels his points are best made with belittling comments. I say this knowing TID has forgotten more about riding than I may ever know.

People buy bikes for all types of purposes and the presumption one size fits all or that there is one right way is silly. I am sure TID does right by HIS customers, but I suppose many other local shops do as well. I dont mean this as an insult, but frankly, if you come off in person how you do here, I wouldn't want to ride with you either...intimidation has nothing to do with it.

Serotta associates it's name with so much it has little direct control over (fit process) that I cannot imagine an approach that widens that loss of control that actually works...it would be lose/lose IMO. Clubs, local shops, friends, coaches and forum brow beating seems to offer many ways for riders to learn...people have options, theyjust don't exercise them.



Not back, just frustrated at where the sport is going. Been talking about this with a number of people on PM, but it's going nowhere. Stan is very proud of what Serotta is doing in the area of fitting, but it more than happy to overlook the fact that it doesn't make it to the end user. Various examples of good riders on Serottas have been given, but for every one good rider there's 100 who spent just as much on a custom bike and lack good technique. I was at the Tour del Toga, I saw...

In a few weeks I get a flock of new riders known as next season's Harvard team. Some of these kids don't even own bikes, but they have a coach who is willing to ride with them three mornings a week in a program we call skills weeks. By next spring they'll be better riders than most of the people I saw at the open house. Y'all have an open invitation to come on any of those morning rides...

So, what does Serotta have to offer?

[pbjbike]

OK, can't stay away. :crap:

One word: Peugeot. Way out of scale comparison to Serotta, but they understood the value of getting exposure and putting good riders on their bikes. From intermediate riders to pros, Peugeot had a club or semi-pro team in most Western European countries in the 70's, and they sold hundreds of thousands of bikes.

I literally see 1 contemporary Serotta for every 10 bikes on country roads in Boulder County, incredible numbers, (I only know of one dealer here). I've probably spoken to 30% of those riders. Half of them are over 40. Most of them knew Serotta via 7-11 back in the day, (25 years ago), and made a promise to buy one when they could. What's up with sponsorship? It's cheap compared to advertising $$. Free bike, wear our logo on your jersey...There's a lot more to being a brand sponsor I know, but you get my drift.

It's not just about making things efficiently and at the cutting edge of technology: It's about exposure, service, loyalty; creating a community of riders on your bikes, and nurturing that sense of community. There aren't many successful models in the U.S. for Serotta to emulate, but if you think outside the box, there are opportunities still left for increasing brand recognition and sales.

There's several million under 30 somethings with disposable income who need to see some great riders on your bikes, and need a reason to buy one.

:beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

OK, can't stay away. :crap:

One word: Peugeot. Way out of scale comparison to Serotta, but they understood the value of getting exposure and putting good riders on their bikes. From intermediate riders to pros, Peugeot had a club or semi-pro team in most Western European countries in the 70's, and they sold hundreds of thousands of bikes.

I literally see 1 contemporary Serotta for every 10 bikes on country roads in Boulder County, incredible numbers, (I only know of one dealer here). I've probably spoken to 30% of those riders. Half of them are over 40. Most of them knew Serotta via 7-11 back in the day, (25 years ago), and made a promise to buy one when they could. What's up with sponsorship? It's cheap compared to advertising $$. Free bike, wear our logo on your jersey...There's a lot more to being a brand sponsor I know, but you get my drift.

It's not just about making things efficiently and at the cutting edge of technology: It's about exposure, service, loyalty; creating a community of riders on your bikes, and nurturing that sense of community. There aren't many successful models in the U.S. for Serotta to emulate, but if you think outside the box, there are opportunities still left for increasing brand recognition and sales.

There's several million under 30 somethings with disposable income who need to see some great riders on your bikes, and need a reason to buy one.

:beer:

I agree with you on this. I also think part of this is cultivating and evolving the high end, but to not miss the mark on the entry level. If they can get people into the market earlier and at a value price, that would go a long way. It sounds like this 2011 line Stan spoke of might be along these lines.

[Ti Designs]

you're right, ed. but the hurdle is consistency and whether a national group of fitters, all certified by serotta, give a consistent "product" and whether this "product" creates value for serotta. even within wheelworks, ed, there isn't consistency of end product.


The same can be said for doctors, lawyers and marketing people...

I agreed to go to Serotta elements class for one simple reason - there was no consistency in bike fitting. I wanted to learn a method of doing fittings that could be repeated. And that's just what we learned, a flexibility based method of fitting where 3 fitters per group did fittings on the 4th, and they all came out within 1cm in any direction of any other fitter in the group. This would have made me very happy, 'cept I noticed that my fitting numbers and my position are two very different things. My fit is based on many years of changes, adaptation and more changes. With the riders I coach, I do the same thing. A fitter, given an hour can get the rider into the ball park. A good fitter can then explain what to look for as a sign that the fit has to change in one direction or the other. None of that is ever covered in fit school...

Serotta fit school and/or SICI has value only in the education about fitting, not creating an army of consistent fittings. The flexibility tests used in the fit school are the basis for most of what I do, but I clearly don't do fittings by their method. It's like anything else, experience means learning things from lots of places - you can't replace that with a school, but you can create a school to share that experience between fitters. Much like fitting, coaching is anything but consistent. John Allis is the best coach I know, he would go out with a bunch of hopeless riders and return with a perfect paceline. As much as I've learned from him, I can't do the exact same job. I hear stories of coaches who work with teams all over, their methods are different, but lots of people credit them for the quality of many riders in their area. Different knowledge, different experience, different methods, same basic result.

To continue my argument as to why Serotta should at least associate their name with a coaching program: What's the performance difference between a carbon Serotta and a carbon Specialized? Not much. What's the price difference? How do you explain the difference? Personal, individual attention. With that fit makes a lot of sense. The big companies claim that women's bikes fit women - talk about your lack of consistency!!! If you're going to sell something that's more expensive on the basis that there's personal, individual attention, don't overlook things like rider skills.