'94 CRL vs '89 Waterford Paramount-what differences will I notice?

[94crl]

As I get the bits together to get this '94 CRL on the road, I've been wondering what differences I'll notice in the ride characteristics of the Serotta Concept tubing versus the Columbus SL/SP in the Paramount I ride already. I know wheelset and tires are going to have as much impact as anything, but exclusive of those items I wonder what differences there might be in the frames themselves.

The Serotta is a 63cm with a 62cm TT.
The Paramount is a 62cm with a 57.5cm TT.

I know I'll be more stretched out on the Serotta. I run a longer stem on the Paramount, so I'll fiddle around with a stem length to get comfortable on the Serotta. Again, I want to try and discard the difference in size and see what opinions there are about the the frames themselves.

Thanks!

Alex

[thwart]

Thlnk the CRL will be a bit stiffer in the BB area. Both great frames, but things changed over that 5 year period of time.

[David Kirk]

Will you be able to get the Serotta to fit? Being a full 4.5 cm long is not something you can make up for with a stem. If you put a super short stem on the Serotta you might get it to fit but end up being disappointed in the handling.

thoughts?

dave

[94crl]

Will you be able to get the Serotta to fit? Being a full 4.5 cm long is not something you can make up for with a stem. If you put a super short stem on the Serotta you might get it to fit but end up being disappointed in the handling.

thoughts?

dave
I wonder about that too a little bit, to be honest. I do like to be stretched out, and while I won't say the Paramount feels short it certainly doesn't feel long to me. I think that ultimate answer is going to come from getting it rolling and seeing.

[David Kirk]

I wonder about that too a little bit, to be honest. I do like to be stretched out, and while I won't say the Paramount feels short it certainly doesn't feel long to me. I think that ultimate answer is going to come from getting it rolling and seeing.

How long a stem is on the Waterford?

Dave

[rdparadise]

What size stem do you have on the Paramount? It'd have to be a rather long one to compensate for the 4.5 cm. shorter top tube on the CRL.

I agree with Dave that a rather short stem (say 7-9 cm) may compromise the designed handling of the CRL. My first Serotta for me was a 58 cm square, CSI, 99 vintage. I thought it would fit as I was originally riding a 58cm badged Trek prior to this bike. When I finally got fitted and had it build up, it was WAY too big for me. I compromised and put an 8cm stem on it and rode it like that for a couple of years. Yeah, I was drinking the Serotta koolaid and didn't give it much thought.

Now I'm riding a 55.5 cm tob tube or 56cm standard Serotta square geometry. Both feel much better and handle significantly better.

Good luck however it works out.

Bob

[94crl]

How long a stem is on the Waterford?

Dave
It's 130 - 140, have to measure it because I can't recall...

[dave thompson]

IMO, you can't wind up with a balanced bike if you arrange the Serotta to fit you like your Waterford unless the Waterford is much too short for you right now. I would say that a rider the would fit that Serotta would be in the neighborhood of 6'5" or even more. A 'typical' bike is designed to run stems in the 11~13CM range. If you're running a 13/14CM now you'd have to use something like an 8~10CM to have the same reach, assuming the seat tube angles are even near the same and then Serotta would not handle as well as it should.

[David Kirk]

It's 130 - 140, have to measure it because I can't recall...

If you have to go down to a 9-10 cm stem I doubt you'll like the handling much.

Dave

[94crl]

Uh oh...you guys are making me really nervous about this frame. I'm 6'4", but the original owner was 6'6". Perhaps I'll put the Campy bits I had intended for this frame onto the Paramount, move the lesser stuff from the Paramount over to this and see what happens...

[David Kirk]

In the interest of not pulling punches - if the Waterford fits the Serotta will not. If the Waterford is too short the Serotta might be good.

4.5 cm is a HUGE difference and can't be made up for with adjustments to stem length or fore/aft saddle positioning.

So how does the Waterford fit? Would it work if you made the stem 4.5 cm longer?

dave

[94crl]

In the interest of not pulling punches - if the Waterford fits the Serotta will not. If the Waterford is too short the Serotta might be good.

4.5 cm is a HUGE difference and can't be made up for with adjustments to stem length or fore/aft saddle positioning.

So how does the Waterford fit? Would it work if you made the stem 4.5 cm longer?

dave
I've never been fit professionally, but I think the Waterford fits fine. Adding 2 inches would put me much more forward.....I don't know I'll have to try stretching my reach that far while on the Paramount. I don't know how else to test it short of being fit by a shop or building the whole thing up which, right now, I'm not feeling so much....

[David Kirk]

Can you send photos of you on the waterford? They need to be taken from the side and it's best if you have 3 of them - hands on tops, hood, and drops.

This is not the end all, be all, in fitting but it will give an idea if you can tolerate being so much longer.

dave

[happycampyer]

Dave,

Doesn't a 57.5cm top tube sound short for someone who is 6'4" tall (not saying that 62cm is right either)?

[94crl]

I never actually measured my Paramount's TT. I took the number from a Schwinn catalog with specs for the Prologue (one big model step down). I'm going to measure the TT when I get home.

Photos question: side view but standing is ok? I don't have a trainer to stand it in, and the drive by photography will make my wife crazy....

I haven't said it so let me say thanks for all the input. I can't say how much I appreciate and make it seem meaningful when typed. I do very much appreciate it.

[David Kirk]

The photos need to be seated - the drive by thing works best and yes it drives wives nuts. Standing will not work well.

Yes a 57.5 top tube for someone this tall sounds short.. Everyone is different of course but I'm 6'4" and I need a 60.5 - 61 top tube. 62 cm is pretty darn long and I would think it would go with an 'average' person who stands 6'7" - 6'8' or so.

First and foremost you need to measure both the top tube and the stem. You need hard numbers to make any real choices and the catalog won't necessarily give hard numbers.

dave

[Keith A]

A couple pieces of geometry info on the Paramount that might help a little. According to the '89 Schwinn catalog, the 62cm frame has a 58cm top tube and a 73º HTA with a 74º STA. Whereas the 63cm CRL has a 62cm top tube with a 73.5º HTA and 73º STA. If you keep the saddle in the same location with respect to your bottom bracket, the steeper STA of the Paramount will effectively lengthen the top tube. Dave might have a better idea how much difference this would make.

The bottom line is that this difference might make the CRL a little closer to the Paramount.

[94crl]

I did measure, and the top tube is 58cm, not 57.5. Not sure what difference that will make, when considering the tube angles, but I'm wondering if I need to go down a size or two. I know photos will help the most.