Bike fit theories: Specialized BG vs. Serotta

[bigreen505]

Can anyone comment on the similarities/differences between the Specialized Body Geometry fit and the Serotta theory?

I had a Serotta fit from a local shop a few years ago on a different bike and aside from a few glaring issues they did an ok job. I have a different bike that I am leaning toward keeping (last one cracked) and need to get fit on it, though I am pretty close now. Unfortunately there are enough different pieces that it is impossible for me to replicate the fit of the old bike just by numbers.

There are a number of shops doing the Specialized fit, one with both Specialized and Serotta, and a couple just Serotta. Also a few doing Retul, but we will ignore those for now.

[Charles M]

Like lots of things, the people involved will have a lot to do with the net result, but I would personally look for an Advanced Serotta fit as a first choice ahead of most things.


I don't think the Specialized fit training is nearly as deep as Serotta.

[slowandsteady]

Buy the FITTER not the system.

Established fitters have done hundreds of fittings and see the results and feedback of their work each and every week. They then incorporate that feedback into the next fitting they do -

I went into a local Trek shop and they tried to sell me on the Retule fit and the fitter who had been riding a few years and was a physical therapist (so she understood body dynamics/motion/joints etc.) but had not done many fittings. She was sold on the Retule system and its accuracy but I was not sold on HER.

EXPERIENCE COUNTS!!!

[TAW]

Buy the FITTER not the system.

Established fitters have done hundreds of fittings and see the results and feedback of their work each and every week. They then incorporate that feedback into the next fitting they do -


The shop I work at does the Specialized Fit system. It deals a lot with flexibility, comfort, and measurements to determine types of saddles, shoe wedges, etc. As slowandsteady says, how those numbers and information is applied to fit is an art in itself. Anyone can take measurements and apply them to bike fit, but a good fitter watches a person on the bike and can "vary" the formulas based on what they see. In my estimation, some of the best fitters probably don't need "all" the numbers to place a person properly on a bike.

[bigreen505]

Thanks TAW, that's a great answer.

Slowandsteady, I'm fully aware of that, but sometimes it's hard to tell. My last fit was from a very well respected Serotta shop, but the fitter was more dogmatic about setting me up to a specific set of numbers than really paying attention to my body. He made some good recommendations and a lot of little changes that made a noticeable difference, but also introduced a lot of pains. However, I fit the bike perfectly according to his fit theory.

I'm just trying to understand the differences between fit theories.

[WickedWheels]

Specialized worked with Serotta to develop their fit system. It is a "dumbed down" fit system designed to work for 80% of the population. The Serotta education is more intense and designed to address everyone, including the last 20% that may have body abnormalities or injuries.

Be aware of any fit system that claims any level of accuracy (i.e. Retul). A proper bike fit is not a static thing. It can change based on the season (rider's conditioning), riding history (muscle memory) and even the time of day. A good fitter will understand the limitations of your body, your intended use and your ability to get used to a different position. He/she will use that to put you into your "range" and (ideally) explain the adjustments that can be made so that you are armed with enough knowledge to tweak it yourself if necessary.

In my experience (as a fitter) Specialized fits typically result in adequate positioning, but can leave out "fixes" for specific issue. My wife's numb hands that are a result of her carpal tunnel would not have been fixed if done according to the "by the book" Specialized fit. Lower back pain due to leg length discrepancies or shoulder soreness due to arm length discrepancies would not be diagnosed. Serotta teaches how to fix certain things and gives you a good idea of how to identify them, but ultimately it is up to the fitter and his/her "eye" for these things.

Personally, I once had a fit that insisted that he's never had any injuries or broken bones. When I pointed out that he wasn't quite symmetrical in reaching for the hoods he remembered that he broke his arm when he was 12 years old. A very slight tweak to the position of the hoods evened his arms out and squared out his shoulders, which solved a sore neck issue he had for years (while on a bike).

[Ti Designs]

Established fitters have done hundreds of fittings and see the results and feedback of their work each and every week. They then incorporate that feedback into the next fitting they do


They do??? When I started doing fittings our shop still used the Fit Kit, so I was shown how to fill out the charts, then I was told to "step back and put them where they really needed to be". Then I made the mistake of riding with some of my customers and I was shocked at how little was gained by the fitting. They still tried to ride the same way, but things were in different places. OK, getting the fit in the ball park helped in many cases, but what I saw made me quit doing fittings for a while.

In the past few months I have suggested to many fitters that they ride with their clients to see the true results of their work. The answers range from "there's not enough time" to something you would expect after insulting their mother. Turns out that having a job where knowing the true results of your work is the right of elected officials and bike fitters - who knew???

As for the different systems, I'll be bold and say neither. I am a Serotta certified advanced fitter - I have the shirt that says so. My shop has the Specialized BG system. Both will take someone who doesn't know the first thing about cycling and make them a fitter in 4 days. And if you buy that, I have a bridge in NY that I'm selling at a very good price... To become a doctor takes years and all kinds or program rotations. To become a PT takes a few years and there's some field work to be done, even trainers spend a couple of years in school and tend to start at the bottom. But bike fitting - interfacing the human body with a machine that controls movement, takes 4 days. Yeh, right.

Bike fitting schools are only a few days 'cause bike shops need fitters, and the salary is what you would expect from the bicycle retail industry (I'm shocked that discount internet bike fitting isn't a booming business). This means the real education has to come from somewhere else - I learned a lot from Serotta Fit School, that that was applied to years of riding and coaching, not as a stand-alone education, much like a doctor would go to a seminar for an update on a technique or procedure.

So where do I start? (I ask this at the point where most people have quit reading) People learn things at a personal level first, then maybe they apply what they've learned to an outside perspective. Some people have a natural talent for things - many of the top riders just ride well and never have to think about it. Problem is that not thinking about it means not being able to apply it to others. "just do it" is not a good explaination of technique... Much of my education as a fitter came from learning how to ride myself. If I were looking for a fitter I would first ride with a few and see what they really understand in terms of first hand knowledge. Strength or fitness have little to do with it, but if a fitter doesn't fit on their own bike or doesn't ride well, how can they fit others on their bikes? And getting back to a previous point, if they simply don't ride, how do they get any feedback on their work?

Here's where we run into a split in what's expected of the fitter. Most people who show up for a fitting just want the bike adjusted to them in the time it takes. The video capture systems are great for this 'cause it shows high technology as a reason for them to hand over the credit card. Some people understand that they will spend a lot of time on their bike, and how they ride and fit on their bike counts for a lot - these are the people I love to work with. For them a fitting is a sequence of adjustments and time for their bodies to adapt, as they get closer to a good riding position. Notice I don't say perfect, the body changes with use, so does the position. Corrections in position are a matter of making a change and seeing how the body reacts - it's a feedback loop. The basic rule is to make half the measurable correction and see what the result is. Anyone who says "I went to the fitter and they solved the problem" without putting in some miles doesn't understand the process, any fitter who claims to have put their client in the perfect position is a fool.

My own fitting education (what I fondly call my Harvard education - fitting and coaching new riders on the Harvard cycling team) and my challenge to any of these fitting schools is the same - take a new rider and make a good cyclist out of them. Isn't that your goal in looking for a good fitter??? I got a good laugh when the teacher at Serotta Fit School said you first have to correct how the rider sits on the saddle, and all the students nodded their heads. There's a correction that's going to last almost 'til lunch. I've coached the team for over 10 years, I get maybe 25 new riders each year, I've corrected posture many, many times. After a few weeks they start to get it and it becomes second nature. Change how they sit on the saddle in an hour or by telling them once or twice??? Good luck with that. The real advantage I've gotten from working with so many riders for such a long time is that I'm challenged to figure out what works and what doesn't for very different riders. It's no longer just a first hand thing - what my body does and what my riders do aren't the same things.

Lastly, a good fitter can't be lazy when it comes to fitting. It needs to be part of who they are, there needs to be a drive to do the best job they can do. Riding with clients is part of that in my opinion - how else would you know if you're doing any good at all? The excuse I get from a lot of fitters is that they don't get paid to ride with clients. And so they never will. It's too bad, 'cause most of the people I like to ride with were my clients at one time or became clients - I ride with them 'cause I like to ride and they're the fun ones to ride with.

[RADaines]

Yet another great post. Thanks! Your posts on fitting and technique make me wish that I was close enough to work and ride with you.

[Volant]

So, what does a good fit look like? How should the rider be positioned, or sit, on the saddle? Any links to share?
I did have a 'professional' fitting done once, but the end result was so uncomfortable and power-draining, that I could barely make 30 miles in that set-up.
I eventually started tweaking things myself and now I know what works for me from years of trial and error.

[jchasse]

Nice post, Ti.

How should one best go about finding a "good" fitter in their area? I'm in Durango, and there are a bunch of options, but everyone has a different opinion.

And do you have any opinions about fittings for mountaiin biking? Any cross-over or correlation that would let you use your road fit info to set up a mountain bike? Or should a rider get a seperate fitting for road/'cross/mountain etc?

[Ti Designs]

So, what does a good fit look like? How should the rider be positioned, or sit, on the saddle? Any links to share?


If I had the answer to that I would open a fit school... The answer is as diverse as the riders you see out there. I think experience, and the will to put in the time to gain it is the only way. There are certainly steps to doing a fitting - I always start by ball parking saddle to pedal and then taking a step back and looking for what's going on in the pedal stroke. From there it's anybody's guess.

[William]

If I had the answer to that I would open a fit school... The answer is as diverse as the riders you see out there. I think experience, and the will to put in the time to gain it is the only way. There are certainly steps to doing a fitting - I always start by ball parking saddle to pedal and then taking a step back and looking for what's going on in the pedal stroke. From there it's anybody's guess.


Ed, we have to talk about your marketing strategy.



;)
William

[MattTuck]

If I had the answer to that I would open a fit school... The answer is as diverse as the riders you see out there. I think experience, and the will to put in the time to gain it is the only way. There are certainly steps to doing a fitting - I always start by ball parking saddle to pedal and then taking a step back and looking for what's going on in the pedal stroke. From there it's anybody's guess.


Do you really work at Wheelworks? I've been in there a dozen times and asked for you, and you never seem to be there. :bike:

[rnhood]

Excellent post Ti. That's the reality side of fitting, when its important to get it truly right.

[gasman]

Great post Ti

I've had a couple fittings (fit kit,specialized) over the years but the last was the best. A guy who was passionate about fits, rode for Rabobank (low end domestique) and on the Israeli National team. He worked with me for hours -on pedal stoke, position and said much of what you've been saying for years Ed. He got rid of my chronic patellar tendonitis in my left knee and pain in my right trapezius. he didn't use any one fit system rather watched me pedal and changed my position gradually over several hours.
So, get someone who is passionate and knowledgeable and it won't matter what fit system they are using.

[rounder]

Good stuff Ti.

[Ti Designs]

Ed, we have to talk about your marketing strategy.


My real marketing is the riders I work with. In many of the fast group rides there's often one girl riding with the guys, she knows which wheel to be on and how to hang with the fast crowd. It's pretty clear that if it were a straight test of power they would be far off the back, yet when the group dwindles from a dozen riders to 4 or 5 they're still there. I've found that guys with bruised egos tend to listen better...

Getting back to fitting, there's one thing I seem to be fighting all the time - people don't know what cycling should feel like. I saw a guy out riding, straight arms, lots of weight on his hands - all the things I work to eliminate. I asked if he was comfortable on the bike and he said "yeh". There's no basis for comparison - he has no clue what comfort on the bike is. Try this: sit at your desk, feet off the floor, move your seat back and hold your body weight up with your hands. Now work for a few hours like that and let me know if you're comfortable... People do things to themselves on the bike that they would never do in their normal lives, and they just don't know any better.

There are some things it takes to for a fitter to learn to notice. Ten years ago I would look at a rider from the front and see two legs going up and down. I had a kirin coach years back who would watch me from in front of the rollers and correct how I was pedaling - that always amazed me. Now I look at people and notice differences in hip position, tibial twist, alignment and all sorts of things. The other day I had a rider on the stand, and both feet were dead straight - that's not common. I asked if he wore leg braces when he was young. He did, just 40 years ago... I notice things about the pedal stroke which indicate limits of range of motion that are often missed by the video capture systems. All reasons that a few days at fit school is really just a good first step...

There's one thing that's always bothered me about our system. There are doctors and surgeons who work on body parts, there are PTs who do rehab after work has been done of if there's an injury that doesn't require it, and there are bike fitters who understand the interface between bike and human (we hope). And somehow the three don't share what they know - does this seem stupid to anyone else? Harvard has a number of teaching hospitals, I've learned more about how the knee works (or doesn't work) from medical textbooks and standing in on operations than I ever could in a fit school. If you're trying to interface a human with a machine it helps to understand the body (the bike is damn simple by comparison). So why not network and learn from doctors and PTs???

[Charles M]

There are doctors and surgeons who work on body parts, there are PTs who do rehab after work has been done of if there's an injury that doesn't require it, and there are bike fitters who understand the interface between bike and human (we hope). And somehow the three don't share what they know - does this seem stupid to anyone else? ?

It did... But then Paraic gets docs and Nate at Endurance rehab (who as a PT guy has also worked with a ton of top pro's as well as joes) and that (and other things) helped develope the Serotta system again...


That's one of the reasons that, staying on topic, I like the Serotta system rather than the BG system that seems to be "Serotta Light". Of course it's down to people and the system doesnt make the fitter. But it does create a far larger foundation for good fitters to develope from...

[Pete Serotta]

AND would recommend to anyone. THey are also the ones that have done family!!! (no order of priority)

Paraic at Serotta
IAN at Fitwerx
Paul at Signature Cycle
Mike at CYCLESPORT
STEVE at Fitwerx
Smiley at Smiley

[Ti Designs]

It did... But then Paraic gets docs and Nate at Endurance rehab (who as a PT guy has also worked with a ton of top pro's as well as joes) and that (and other things) helped develope the Serotta system again...


How does this pass to individual fitters, or are you suggesting that people just go to Paraic? The one problem I have with one fitter doing it right is that they soon become too busy to do it right any more. I keep a close eye on what's going on in fitting these days and all the systems out there, the emphasis is still on making fitters given a few days training. The first thing they should ask anyone who wants to be a fitter is how long they plan on doing this - that's never going to happen.

[Charles M]

How does this not pass to individual fitters?

Or you saying once this generation of good fitters dies, that's it?



I was going to slip up and say that the information in the newer courses passes on like it always has, but it doesn't.


Better tools combined with A LOT more knowledge are condensed into fitting courses now and learning fitting is simply easier and more effective than it's ever been.


Of course the training doesn't make the fitter. One guy may have a LOT more desire, ability and tallent than the next guy...

But both of these guys will benefit from more in depth training.


In fact, I would think a better trained and educated person will more likely stick with it and develope CRITTICAL experience than someone tossed into a trail and error situation...



I know more than a couple of old school fitters that are simply not very good (interestingly they also tend to be the guys that dismiss material, product and training...). I also know a few that are fantastic.


Time and experience count for sure! but time and experience alone don't make a good fitter any more than training alone does. They are best when combined.

And the better and more in depth the training, the sooner a given fitter will be effective.

[Ti Designs]

Better tools combined with A LOT more knowledge are condensed into fitting courses now and learning fitting is simply easier and more effective than it's ever been.

There's no doubt that fitting now is far better than it was 10 years ago. I've been at my shop for 25 years, I've seen what fitting was and I know where it stands today. But my point has always been that fitting courses are always going to fall short because they are too short. Has little to do with the amount of knowledge or the quality of the tools. It's not enough for the school to have a full staff of experts (unless they are doing all the fittings themselves), each fitter should then go out and create their own network of resources. I don't know that there's any emphasis on this at SICI, my requests from doctors, trainers or PT's often seems odd to them, like a bike fitter has no part in their world.

I keep asking myself why I see things differently as a fitter. I think it has a lot to do with my being a cyclist first and a fitter simply because I understand the subject so well. I quit fitting for a while when I started watching the people I had worked with and realized how little value the fitting itself was. I related it back to my own bike - I could ride as I've learned how to ride and it all works, or I could ride all wrong and it doesn't. Either way, the bike fit - the position of the saddle and bars remains the same. My veiws changed when one of the Havrard students asked me to be her coach. This was my first true chance to work with both the rider and the bike. My resources were my own past coaches, and I've had some of the best to learn from. I must have spent 100 hours on the phone asking for advice - when you have one rider to work with you don't want to be making mistakes. It's a hard test of one's ability to work with riders, but I think it's fair and not that far off from what other professions do to insure that the new people are up to the task.



In fact, I would think a better trained and educated person will more likely stick with it and develope CRITTICAL experience than someone tossed into a trail and error situation...


There are two things lacking in this: salary and respect. There are those who make a good living at bike fitting, but those tend to be the bike studios which do expensive bike fittings all day long, but have little feedback from their clients - it's a limitation of the business model. I'm a cyclist first, my goal is to make better riders, I'm never going to make much money at it, nor am I going to get much respect for what I do, but I have good riders to ride with.

[Ahneida Ride]

Buy the FITTER not the system.

Established fitters have done hundreds of fittings and see the results and feedback of their work each and every week. They then incorporate that feedback into the next fitting they do -

I went into a local Trek shop and they tried to sell me on the Retule fit and the fitter who had been riding a few years and was a physical therapist (so she understood body dynamics/motion/joints etc.) but had not done many fittings. She was sold on the Retule system and its accuracy but I was not sold on HER.

EXPERIENCE COUNTS!!!


AMEN !!!!

[Charles M]

There's no doubt that fitting now is far better than it was 10 years ago. I've been at my shop for 25 years, I've seen what fitting was and I know where it stands today. But my point has always been that fitting courses are always going to fall short because they are too short. Has little to do with the amount of knowledge or the quality of the tools. It's not enough for the school to have a full staff of experts (unless they are doing all the fittings themselves), each fitter should then go out and create their own network of resources. I don't know that there's any emphasis on this at SICI, my requests from doctors, trainers or PT's often seems odd to them, like a bike fitter has no part in their world.

I keep asking myself why I see things differently as a fitter. I think it has a lot to do with my being a cyclist first and a fitter simply because I understand the subject so well. I quit fitting for a while when I started watching the people I had worked with and realized how little value the fitting itself was. I related it back to my own bike - I could ride as I've learned how to ride and it all works, or I could ride all wrong and it doesn't. Either way, the bike fit - the position of the saddle and bars remains the same. My veiws changed when one of the Havrard students asked me to be her coach. This was my first true chance to work with both the rider and the bike. My resources were my own past coaches, and I've had some of the best to learn from. I must have spent 100 hours on the phone asking for advice - when you have one rider to work with you don't want to be making mistakes. It's a hard test of one's ability to work with riders, but I think it's fair and not that far off from what other professions do to insure that the new people are up to the task.


There are two things lacking in this: salary and respect. There are those who make a good living at bike fitting, but those tend to be the bike studios which do expensive bike fittings all day long, but have little feedback from their clients - it's a limitation of the business model. I'm a cyclist first, my goal is to make better riders, I'm never going to make much money at it, nor am I going to get much respect for what I do, but I have good riders to ride with.



Getting back on topic, I think the Serotta course is a lot deeper than the Body Geometry course.


That said, both have cultivated a lot of knowledge from people in medicine. And I am more than sure that both groups of educators ride their bikes with some pretty good riders too...


Nobody is dismissing experience.


I would simply say that a substantial amount of well organized, well presented information is a good thing... So are multiple follow up's and graduated levels of learning.

So is hands on training with the latest tools of the trade.



Everyone has to start somewhere. While it's all that's needed, I'm not sure why anyone would rather not benefit from being eduacted by experts and use the best tools...

[Ti Designs]

I think you missed my point. There's a difference between having the best resources there while you're learning and having the same resources or something like that when you're fitting. The best resources and teachers is a good thing - no doubt, but then those fitters go to their own shops, then what?

The same argument holds true for any video capture fitting system. It's nice to be able to isolate something on video to show the rider what's going on, but that advantage goes away as soon as they leave the shop. That video CD thay take home is a snapshop, if there's any hope of making positive changes, what's on that CD is no longer valid, nor can it really be used to make changes without comparison.

[WickedWheels]

Ti... what you're getting into is coaching, not fitting. There's a difference between fitting someone to their bike and coaching them into riding it correctly. The difference is not only in what is examined and how, but also in the price paid for the services.

[William]

There are fitters who know what they are doing, and there are fitters who think they know what they're doing. My experience on the subject has varied. Boils down to buyer beware.




William

[Dekonick]

There are fitters who know what they are doing, and there are fitters who think they know what they're doing. My experience on the subject has varied. Boils down to buyer beware.




William


Isn't this true with anything? No matter where you obtain training or education, it still comes down to the individual. For me, I want someone who has the training and the ability to use it correctly. In the MD/DC/VA area, Smiley gets it. Just my opinion.

[Ti Designs]

Ti... what you're getting into is coaching, not fitting. There's a difference between fitting someone to their bike and coaching them into riding it correctly. The difference is not only in what is examined and how, but also in the price paid for the services.


Yeh, I know. I started out fitting people at my shop, then I started riding with people I fit and realized how far short the service falls. I quit fitting for a while, when I returned it was with a commitment to make a difference.

[Charles M]

I think you missed my point. There's a difference between having the best resources there while you're learning and having the same resources or something like that when you're fitting. The best resources and teachers is a good thing - no doubt, but then those fitters go to their own shops, then what?

The same argument holds true for any video capture fitting system. It's nice to be able to isolate something on video to show the rider what's going on, but that advantage goes away as soon as they leave the shop. That video CD thay take home is a snapshop, if there's any hope of making positive changes, what's on that CD is no longer valid, nor can it really be used to make changes without comparison.



Then... they go back to their businesses and apply what they've learned...



And I don't think that a riders mind goes blank and / or their bike adjusts it's self back to the old position the minute they walk out the door after a well qualified fitter uses the substantial benefit of motion capture tools.



I think you riding with your clients is a real benefit!

But I don't think what you're assuming about other people's mental capacity, the benefit f good fitting education or improved tools is any more reasonable than me saying the second you're not riding by their side, your clients suddenly lose all comfort or benefit from their time with you.