trends...

[thwart]

Looks like the place across the hall (Velocipede Salon) has now become more popular than the Forum, at least in terms of the general discussion area. Generally there seem more people logged on, at least the times I've checked.

Yet, the classies section here brings many more views than over there...

Why?

Or... why not? :rolleyes:

[StellaBlue]

They have great builder input/participation, which is cool. Some of them post here as well..

[fourflys]

honestly, I usually have both open in separate tabs...

I got some great reading across the hall, you just have to wade through some crap at times (just like here)...

[Lifelover]

The classifieds have always been the big draw here. You will almost always find more people viewing it than the General.

Many regulars over there still come over here simply for the classifieds.

They may not get as big of a classified viewing because if you are not one of the regulars you get fussed at for posting in the classifieds.

They don't mind lurkers buying, they just don't want them selling.

[Kirk007]

Level of sophistication of discourse. The builders plus long time posters there, most of who used to post here, have a demonstrated knowledge and level of helpfulness that I typically find more useful and trustworthy. Inquiries in my experience usually generate sophisticated responses; I rarely if ever get a response that suggests elementary approaches that I discarded well before asking for advice.

As a result and somewhat because of less tolerance for the same old stuff - there are much fewer "basic inquiry" posts across the hall. When I scan the posts here there seem to be an increasing number of posts that would be unnecessary if the search function was used.

I by and large stopped coming here for bicycle advice a long time ago and now that the OT topics have been neutered I check in much less frequently - a quick scan in the morning and at the end of the day is about it for me.

[Ti Designs]

Level of sophistication of discourse. The builders plus long time posters there, most of who used to post here, have a demonstrated knowledge and level of helpfulness that I typically find more useful and trustworthy. Inquiries in my experience usually generate sophisticated responses; I rarely if ever get a response that suggests elementary approaches that I discarded well before asking for advice.


So you're saying if we want to restore balance, I should go over there...

[vqdriver]

Level of sophistication of discourse. The builders plus long time posters there, most of who used to post here, have a demonstrated knowledge and level of helpfulness that I typically find more useful and trustworthy. Inquiries in my experience usually generate sophisticated responses; I rarely if ever get a response that suggests elementary approaches that I discarded well before asking for advice.

As a result and somewhat because of less tolerance for the same old stuff - there are much fewer "basic inquiry" posts across the hall. When I scan the posts here there seem to be an increasing number of posts that would be unnecessary if the search function was used.

I by and large stopped coming here for bicycle advice a long time ago and now that the OT topics have been neutered I check in much less frequently - a quick scan in the morning and at the end of the day is about it for me.

i'll echo that, except the opposite. meaning: as a non-framebuilder non-shopowner non-racer cyclist, i find some, not all but some, of the threads there go over my head and about people or things i have no familiarity with. speaking strictly from a consumer perspective, i find this forum more appropriate for me, tho undeniably more knowledgeable than most other boards and yet not so "inside baseball" that i get lost in the discourse.

[JMerring]

this'll open up a can of worms (but hopefully not get me blacklisted) - they have less censorship and more freedom of speach over there. i still come here plenty but find myself spending more time there than i used to.

[fourflys]

they have less censorship and more freedom of speech over there.

this is true until you say something disparaging about of the favorite sons and then watch out... I actually enjoy the moderating here because as long as you don't post anything you wouldn't say to someon'e fact, there's no problems.. Often across the hall, you have the tag-alongs that like to throw out insults to feel cool (think Scott Farkas's little sidekick from A Christmas Story...) although, that has gotten better the past few months...

I have no issues with moderation as I think it's needed most of the time...

[davidlee]

IMHO , there are lots of folks who are way too cool for school across the hall.
Everytime I go there and start reading a post, I end up shaking my head and questioning if those guys even ride their bicycles .
Just a bunch of code word , secret society handshakes, nods and pats on the back . I very rarely, if ever, post over yonder.

I come back to this side o' the tracks and take a deep breath and remember why I like riding my bike.

WAY better round these parts .

XO
davidlee

[SoCalSteve]

this'll open up a can of worms (but hopefully not get me blacklisted) - they have less censorship and more freedom of speach over there. i still come here plenty but find myself spending more time there than i used to.

No can of worms at all. Thank you for your opinion!

We only censor when things start to get out of hand politically or when things start to get personal ( in a bad way).

I'm sure the other mods would agree with me when I say that we HATE to censor...

[fiamme red]

this'll open up a can of worms (but hopefully not get me blacklisted) - they have less censorship and more freedom of speach over there.What content do the Serotta forum moderators censor that the moderators over there don't? Do they allow political threads? Just askin', since I don't venture "across the hall" regularly.

I do remember once seeing over there that a moderator apparently censored the word "brifters." :confused:

[vqdriver]

......a moderator apparently censored the word "brifters." :confused:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA:hello:
i love it. that's a reason to go hang out there for sure.

[JMerring]

i appreciate the 'too cool for school' sentiment (and that doesn't describe me by the way); i just don't take their attitude seriously.

i concede also that they tend not to touch the political and related stuff, so perhaps not a fair comparison.

i guess perhaps my sense is just that the ot related stuff that went on in the first quarter and its results have had a chilling effect here while over there it is more of a free-flowing, gun-slinging wild west type of environment. they (as in: the whole place) also don't have a company and brand to support, so i totally get where the serotta mods were coming from.

[Ray]

I do remember once seeing over there that a moderator apparently censored the word "brifters." :confused:
And I think that moderator was later "removed" too, at least temporarily.

I don't have much patience for threads over there dumping on this place or threads here dumping on over there. Both places have plenty of good people and some jerks too. The perspective and types of information you're likely to get/share is different between the two. I like 'em both just fine. Haven't seen any real difference in 'censorship' - neither place has any real patience for politics or personal attacks, which took a little longer to get to here than there. Both are just fine but not perfect. You take what you need and you leave the rest....

-Ray

[Pete Serotta]

No can of worms at all. Thank you for your opinion!

We only censor when things start to get out of hand politically or when things start to get personal ( in a bad way).

I'm sure the other mods would agree with me when I say that we HATE to censor...
:banana: :banana:

[Lifelover]

this'll open up a can of worms (but hopefully not get me blacklisted) - they have less censorship and more freedom of speach over there. i still come here plenty but find myself spending more time there than i used to.

My initial reaction to this statement was to think you are crazy. However, I do kind of see how it could come off that way. Especially when you take the OT stuff from this last winter/spring into account.

However, the big difference is that they are much quicker to completely shut down a thread while over here the mods will/would let it flow more. Once it gets flowing they would need to step in.

I see it as the mods here trim branches while over there they chop down the whole tree.

As an example just try and start this same exact thread over there.

The whole "Cool Kids" thing has toned down quit a bit now that Swoop stopped posting over there. You still get some of it but he instigated most of it.

[Charles M]

I think this is another little reminder / feeder thread...

While both places have good people and pluses and minuses, there's a clear winner in the attention seeker thread posting ;)

[SoCalSteve]

My initial reaction to this statement was to think you are crazy. However, I do kind of see how it could come off that way. Especially when you take the OT stuff from this last winter/spring into account.

However, the big difference is that they are much quicker to completely shut down a thread while over here the mods will/would let it flow more. Once it gets flowing they would need to step in.

I see it as the mods here trim branches while over there they chop down the whole tree.

As an example just try and start this same exact thread over there.

The whole "Cool Kids" thing has toned down quit a bit now that Swoop stopped posting over there. You still get some of it but he instigated most of it.

Amen!

I actually read/post over there now (on occasion), when before it seemed that every time I wrote something, I got flamed or it was deleted or whatever...

Its gotten much better across the hall recently (no names, please).

[William]

There is there. Here is here. Let's all just have fun. :beer:



William

[Mr. Squirrel]

There is there. Here is here. Let's all just have fun. :beer:



William

where is there? do they ride bikes? where do they bicycle?

mr. squirrel

[fiamme red]

where is there? do they ride bikes? where do they bicycle?

mr. squirrelThey don't ride bikes. They ride velocipedes. ;)

[texbike]

It depends on what you are looking for. It seems that there are many more industry-insiders across the hall and that it is focused mostly on "the bike" and those (as well as their groupies) that add to that culture. That's cool and one of the perceived benefits of the VSalon option. As Jerry Seinfeld would say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that".

However, I personally like the breadth of expertise and experiences that are displayed across MULTIPLE subjects here on the Serotta forum. I like the variety of threads that pop up and having something to discuss besides the latest incarnation of the same basic lug set, same basic tubeset, handbuilt vs. factory built wheels, which material is the realist, etc, etc, etc. I love bikes, but the same old topics can only be rehashed so many times.

So, thank you to the Serotta forum for providing an opportunity to see what my fellow cyclists think about the environment, music, art, literature, religion, finances, the newest electronic gadgets, food, beer, clothes, kids, jobs, houses, world events, AND all of the bike related stuff. This forum is MUCH richer for the breadth of subject matter and those that post from outside of the industry as well as those from within.

This is a great place! Thank you!

Texbike

[fourflys]

same basic tubeset,
Texbike


Just don't ask how good or bad a tubeset is (esp Ox Platinum apparently) unless you've got tens of thousands of miles under your bib and can talk the lingo... TRUST ME! ;) :D

[vqdriver]

Just don't ask how good or bad a tubeset is (esp Ox Platinum apparently) unless you've got tens of thousands of miles under your bib and can talk the lingo... TRUST ME! ;) :D

oh yeah, i remember that...............
good times

[Kirk007]

However, I personally like the breadth of expertise and experiences that are displayed across MULTIPLE subjects here on the Serotta forum. I like the variety of threads that pop up and having something to discuss besides the latest incarnation of the same basic lug set, same basic tubeset, handbuilt vs. factory built wheels, which material is the realist, etc, etc, etc. I love bikes, but the same old topics can only be rehashed so many times.

So, thank you to the Serotta forum for providing an opportunity to see what my fellow cyclists think about the environment, music, art, literature, religion, finances, the newest electronic gadgets, food, beer, clothes, kids, jobs, houses, world events, AND all of the bike related stuff. This forum is MUCH richer for the breadth of subject matter and those that post from outside of the industry as well as those from within.

This is a great place! Thank you!

Texbike

Wow, this is what I USED to love about this place too for the very same reasons. But the place you describe is no longer this place.

The bolded matters are as far as I can tell now in the political no go zone and we are left with only what can be discussed in polite non-controversial discourse - no discussion of crazy uncle harry at this dinner party.

Which is fine as it goes, lots of folks still come here and enjoy the place - good for them and Serotta. For me and I think some others, the inability to discuss things that we find important but not related to leisure and sensory pleasures leaves it a lesser place. And no VSalon is not a substitute as it tends to be more about the bikes (except for beer, bacon and related food items) - "politics" in the broad sense has never been on the menu there best I can tell. Indeed it is that fact that had kept me checking this forum way too many times a day (at least that bad habit has been broken).

[pjmsj21]

I visit both regularly but probably feel a bit more comfortable here.

"Across the hall" seems to have less latitude or appreciation for bikes (and their riders) that differ from the holly grail of the lugged steel frame, with the accompanying steel fork made by a small one man builder and naturally carry Campy only components (btw I have one of these such bikes althought not built by a one man shop.....Waterford probably has about ten folks).

None the less both sites are the very best on the web in the world of general cycling. They both provide a wealth of information and entertainment and I allow both to take up too much of my time....but it's fun.

Pat Mc

[SoCalSteve]

Wow, this is what I USED to love about this place too for the very same reasons. But the place you describe is no longer this place.

The bolded matters are as far as I can tell now in the political no go zone and we are left with only what can be discussed in polite non-controversial discourse - no discussion of crazy uncle harry at this dinner party.

Which is fine as it goes, lots of folks still come here and enjoy the place - good for them and Serotta. For me and I think some others, the inability to discuss things that we find important but not related to leisure and sensory pleasures leaves it a lesser place. And no VSalon is not a substitute as it tends to be more about the bikes (except for beer, bacon and related food items) - "politics" in the broad sense has never been on the menu there best I can tell. Indeed it is that fact that had kept me checking this forum way too many times a day (at least that bad habit has been broken).

I am sorry that you feel this way.

We encourage Off Topic subjects (including Crazy Uncle Harry at the dinner table). The issues/problems arise when people get "too political" - "too religious" and "too personal".

If we can discuss OT issues where it doesn't get personal-pissy, etc. then no one has any problems with these topics.

Again, Off Topic issues are encouraged.

Please, feel free to go "Off Topic". Its not ONLY about the bike.

Thanks,

Steve

[chuckroast]

I am travelling on business this week and staying in a hotel that I am arguably not hip enough to stay in. I am camped out in my room because it's too darn loud down in the lobby bar :)

Similarly, I felt when the other forum first launched, that I wasn't hip enough to post over there and made a deliberate choice to not join (and maybe they wouldn't have had me).

I enjoy being here, but I also belong to, and mainly lurk, over at RBR for non-bike related topics. Those guys have a goofy aesthetic that I enjoy.

Having said that though, it's a big world with room for lots of folks. If they are having success across the hall, more power to them.

[William]

where is there? do they ride bikes? where do they bicycle?

mr. squirrel


Why don't you go over there? I think you would be well liked. I'll even throw in a bag of nuts if you do. :D


William

[Kirk007]

Well thanks, Steve, that's encouraging and I'll keep it in mind. The last environmental thread I saw though was about the Gulf Oil Spill and let's just say that if BP moved with the speed the mods did in cutting off that thread there would indeed be nothing to talk about down there!

I am sorry that you feel this way.

We encourage Off Topic subjects (including Crazy Uncle Harry at the dinner table). The issues/problems arise when people get "too political" - "too religious" and "too personal".

If we can discuss OT issues where it doesn't get personal-pissy, etc. then no one has any problems with these topics.

Again, Off Topic issues are encouraged.

Please, feel free to go "Off Topic". Its not ONLY about the bike.

Thanks,

Steve

[dave thompson]

Why don't you go over there? I think you would be well liked. I'll even throw in a bag of nuts if you do. :D


William
How can you get all the folks on this forum into one bag? :D

[rugbysecondrow]

IMHO , there are lots of folks who are way too cool for school across the hall.
Everytime I go there and start reading a post, I end up shaking my head and questioning if those guys even ride their bicycles .
Just a bunch of code word , secret society handshakes, nods and pats on the back . I very rarely, if ever, post over yonder.

I come back to this side o' the tracks and take a deep breath and remember why I like riding my bike.

WAY better round these parts .

XO
davidlee
agreed

From my reading accross the hall, there is too much BS, too cool for school attitude, and back patting.

Many people want to be at the cool table so badly they will put up with people being a$$holes to them. Then they act like a$$holes since that is how they get cool points, or internet forum "street" cred...too funny.

Also, I got tired of trying to figure out how erichie can incorporate "atmo" into every sentence. I know he is a good framebuilder, but seriously...atmo. (did I use it right?)

[rounder]

I like the people from across the hall. They all like their bikes and ride them..same as the people here. When you go to their site and hear them refer to the people across the hall...you know they are referring to the serotta site. When i was growing up and living through my misspent youth, I went to lots of bars, but spent most of my time in just a few. Not that the rest were bad, but you find those that you are comfortable with.

[William]

I am sorry that you feel this way.

We encourage Off Topic subjects (including Crazy Uncle Harry at the dinner table). The issues/problems arise when people get "too political" - "too religious" and "too personal".

If we can discuss OT issues where it doesn't get personal-pissy, etc. then no one has any problems with these topics.

Again, Off Topic issues are encouraged.

Please, feel free to go "Off Topic". Its not ONLY about the bike.

Thanks,

Steve



Well thanks, Steve, that's encouraging and I'll keep it in mind. The last environmental thread I saw though was about the Gulf Oil Spill and let's just say that if BP moved with the speed the mods did in cutting off that thread there would indeed be nothing to talk about down there!


I tried to prove you wrong Kirk. I tried to go with Steve and show you that an OT thread about a current environmental disaster could live and we could have a meaningful discussion without it getting it shut down. I guess I was wrong and you were right. It didn't get "overtly political" in my eyes but it got shut down and locked tight.

I thought we had free discussion again in OT threads. Again, I was wrong, you were right.




William

[fiamme red]

I tried to prove you wrong Kirk. I tried to go with Steve and show you that an OT thread about a current environmental disaster could live and we could have a meaningful discussion without it getting it shut down. I guess I was wrong and you were right. It didn't get "overtly political" in my eyes but it got shut down and locked tight.I don't understand either why the BP thread was locked.

[rugbysecondrow]

I tried to prove you wrong Kirk. I tried to go with Steve and show you that an OT thread about a current environmental disaster could live and we could have a meaningful discussion without it getting it shut down. I guess I was wrong and you were right. It didn't get "overtly political" in my eyes but it got shut down and locked tight.

I thought we had free discussion again in OT threads. Again, I was wrong, you were right.




William

Although I don't like it accross the hall, I think there is a link between the flight from here and the lock down on threads. With out the OT, we are just another bike forum.

[William]

...I think there is a link between the flight from here and the lock down on threads. With out the OT, we are just another bike forum.

I agree 110%.





William

[Lifelover]

.. we are just another bike forum.


Is not that what we are supposed to be?

[michael white]

Something that is really worth treasuring is the eclectic mix of voices here, often passionate and very articulate. The mix is the key; it makes you feel like you're in a conversation, and that's interesting. It isn't easy to create this balance, and it isn't always easy to maintain it. Of course all these forums have a bottom line; this one is sponsored by a major bike brand, the other is sponsored by the guild itself. I do see politics as very dangerous here, since there are so many smart people on either side of the political fence, and the fangs can come out pretty quickly.

The other forum has a complicated agenda, driven by the builders, supportive toward newer builders etc. It's wonderful hearing what the builders have to say about bikes; they are passionate and also articulate and have a deep context for the way they see the industry. Those of us who love bikes, who have found a bit of paradise hanging out in bike shops since we were 8 or so, feel privileged to participate in these discussions. But sometimes, over there, you get a sense of a party line, there can be a final stamp on a discussion which can be dismissive to the average joe (TrekFred.). This seems to have faded, but perhaps is still true to some extent. It's enough to make me want to go out and buy a Trek (actually I bought 3 this year). Now, no one is saying that the framebuilders aren't right about a lot of things in the industry, and that the context of their opinions isn't worth paying attention to, and that we don't admire them and their work and their passion . . . but when an agenda surfaces--an approved attitude--for me that's a real turn-off, and I personally am not open to it. I guess that's what posters are referring to when they say "kool kids." Lots of people have cool professions, and believe passionately in what we do etc., but part of the deal is playing nice with others. I should say that most of those guys are completely cognizant of this fact, and comport themselves as well as anyone ever could.

So, to sum up, there might sometimes be thread lock-down here to keep the diverse points of view in play; over there, sometimes you run into the party line, which isn't always open to what they see as the average joe--which means, not so interested in a real conversation. Kind of a toss-up, atmo.

[Kirk007]

Is not that what we are supposed to be?

Yes I think this is the direction that has been decided upon. Its a bike forum where the discussions are bikes and the acceptable OTs are primarily topics regarding other pleasant pursuits, which is fine as far as it goes. It is still a place where at times very useful information is exchanged. Its fun to talk about movies and books and coffee and food and the latest and greatest from Apple - good stuff across the board. So be it. That this is not enough for some of us reflects that to us or at least me it used to be so much more.

It used to be, for me, an intellectually stimulating community.
But it is no longer a place that makes me think; it is no longer a place where my assumptions and point of view on important issues are challenged by other very smart folks. What I once considered special in a very unique, for the internet, way, is now just another bookmark that I check out when I'm bored.

[rugbysecondrow]

Yes I think this is the direction that has been decided upon. Its a bike forum where the discussions are bikes and the acceptable OTs are primarily topics regarding other pleasant pursuits, which is fine as far as it goes. It is still a place where at times very useful information is exchanged. Its fun to talk about movies and books and coffee and food and the latest and greatest from Apple - good stuff across the board. So be it. That this is not enough for some of us reflects that to us or at least me it used to be so much more.

It used to be, for me, an intellectually stimulating community.
But it is no longer a place that makes me think; it is no longer a place where my assumptions and point of view on important issues are challenged by other very smart folks. What I once considered special in a very unique, for the internet, way, is now just another bookmark that I check out when I'm bored.

Exactly correct.

[Lifelover]

Yes I think this is the direction that has been decided upon. Its a bike forum where the discussions are bikes and the acceptable OTs are primarily topics regarding other pleasant pursuits, which is fine as far as it goes. It is still a place where at times very useful information is exchanged. Its fun to talk about movies and books and coffee and food and the latest and greatest from Apple - good stuff across the board. So be it. That this is not enough for some of us reflects that to us or at least me it used to be so much more.

It used to be, for me, an intellectually stimulating community.
But it is no longer a place that makes me think; it is no longer a place where my assumptions and point of view on important issues are challenged by other very smart folks. What I once considered special in a very unique, for the internet, way, is now just another bookmark that I check out when I'm bored.

And as a result of the "good old days" me, you and Rugby have purchased a few used Serotta's, 2 New Kirks, A NOS Slawta made GVH, a new Rawland and 0 new Serotta's.

So why is it they should worry about keeping us happy?

[DHallerman]

I've only recently started to spend time over at VSalon, and kind of like the difference from this Serotta forum -- and like both places.

But this thread wouldn't last there, because it seems like the phrase across the hall, which has been used several times in this thread, is verboten there.

Really. Really.

Dave, who says that multiple perspectives are good...really...

[fiamme red]

But this thread wouldn't last there, because it seems like the phrase across the hall, which has been used several times in this thread, is verboten there.Like "brifters." ;)

[Charles M]

If I have to lose a little (suggested) intelectual stimulation in order to also lose a dose of attitude/condecension,


So be it.




I genuinely like a lot of the people at the other place. I don't much care for the regular recruiting threads started that always have to mention the other place...


My complaint to the Mods isn't that they're too hard on topics. It's that they let bull***** like this stay up and create internal stress because (I guess) they feel it shows how impartial this place is.


I would delete these threads as they pop up and just move on. They're not designed to do much but stir ***** and drive people to another URL (always handily supplied either by the OP or a helpful follow up post...)

[SoCalSteve]

I think at this point this thread has gone far enough.

We (the mods) make decisions sometimes based on "other" facts that may not be apparent to everyone. These decisions are made after we chat about them, deliberate about them and agonize over them.

We are truly sorry if you do not like the way this Forum is going.

It is, first and foremost, a cycling Forum that is sponsored by a great company. We try our best to keep it civil and hopefully we do a decent job of it.

There are many places on the Internet to have great political discussions. We feel that this is not one of them.

Again, Off Topic subjects are highly encouraged. But please, no Forum bashing and no political threads.

They just end up like this one.

Thank you all for understanding. We are doing the best job we know how.