How do you decend , on a twisting road

[Smiley]

I have noticed many different techniques on others , I find that if I have not picked the right line in a turn I must gently pump my brakes to get control of speed, sometimes when I use my front brake I get a bit twitchy , what are your sugestions and how do you do it. How do the pro's amongst us do it. It seems to me that decending more than any other manuever on a bike is a God's gift, it also helps if you have ice water running through your viens. I love seeing guys going down a sweeping curvey road, weight all the way back in a tuck aero stance and making really scary turns. I want to look like Davis Phinney so any suggestions out there.

[eddief]

I have read many articles on this subject and I swear it is difficult to tranlate the written word into the actual riding experience. But I have been experimenting with jamming my downhill knee into the top tube. I believe this is one variable in counter steering. The other being trying to keep the downhill arm as straight as possible.

This method is counter intuitive because there may be a natural tendency to have the downhill knee go low in an attempt to lean down into the curve.

At least I think this describes what I am doing.

[Bruce K]

Smiley;

I have developed my descending technique (what little I may have) from my motorsports experience.

On a downhill I try to get my anticipated braking started early and I "trail brake" down to my apex.

By this I mean early application of the harder braking in a staright line and then relaxing but not releasing down to the inner most point of my chosen arc.

I try to chose an apex later than midway to reduce drift to the outer edge.

If you apex early you tend to run out of road and if you need to scrub speed you are left with braking hard while turning, a dicey proposition as you seem to have found out.

Applying the rear brake while turning will tend to induce oversteer, loosness (for you NASCAR types), or in plain english a desire for the rear end to try and get in front.

Applying the front brake will tend to induce understeer, push, or the desire for the front end to not turn at all.

Neither of these conditions is desirable in cycling as with so little contact patch corrections or both hair-raising and difficult.

My preference is to use the rear brake as I fell like I have a better chance to control a rear wheel skid than a front.

BK

[Kevin]

Four rules for descending a hill quickly (road only). Never hit the brakes. Keep your knees up against the TT with the cranks parallel to the ground. Place your hands in the drops and visualize yourself skiing down the hill looking for the fatsest line down the hill. Never pass a car.

Kevin

[Smiley]

can you now put it in more lay terms for us dummies. What your saying i have felt , does this mean slowing down on the straight section before picking your line in a turn if you are not following someone then let her go into the turn and repeat. use only the rear brake to control speed as the front will cause me to lock up into a turn. Thanks for the follow up.

[Bruce K]

Smiley;

As I am a bit more timid when descending on two wheels than Kevin (though his advice is all good for the stout of heart and large of b....s).

The answer to your question is: yes, I try and anticipate how much braking I will need for the corner and do it all in as straight a line as possible before entering the turn. As I am not a total wimp while descending, I personally carry some of the braking into the entry of the turn. If I do it right, my slowest speed is at the exact moment I reach the apex (clipping point) of the turn. From there on out it is acceleration, either by gravity or pedal.

Under any conditions I try to ride my own bike and not emulate the rider in front of me. Weight, experience, skill, and other factors may mean they can do things you can't. I do try to give myself maneuvering room when descnding with other riders in case one of us develops a problem.

If I need to make any corrections, I try to use a balance of brakes. Remember that there is more weight on the front so they will heat up faster and begin to lose braking capacity. with less weight on the rear they will tend to lock up quicker so balance and touch are VERY important.

Some of this is just try different things until you find what feels right for you.

BK

[Matt Barkley]

Descending on twisting roads can be done a number of ways. More times than not we have choices about how we get down that twisty road: fast, slow, checking out scenery, being extra careful, or laying it all on the line (maybe for no other reason than that rush of excitement.)

With regards to getting down that twisting descent as fast as possible on your two-wheeled skinny-tired machine:

Pedal in whatever gear to get up to speed out of corners or at beginning of descent (maximum speed is the name of the game- max out in your 53x11 if appropriate)

Get in an appropriate-for-you aero-tuck. I clamp the top tube with my knees - cranks at 3/9o'clock and get my head as low as possible - weight far back - hands securely in drops with 2 fingers on each brake lever - paying super attention to road surface / frost-heaves and upcoming turns.

Seeing the turns and twists coming up - I time my braking (if neccessary - it usually is for hard slower speed turns) for the last possible moment depending on road surface/conditions. I use the front brake as hard as I can with rear brake (not as hard - almost locking up) at same time BEFORE a hard corner/turn and trail-off the brakes or completely release leaning into the turn - try to hit the apex while all the while keeping my weight as low as possible. (Possition on road - Outside to inside back to set up for the nest turn)
Note - Almost all the time that hard braking takes place my weight is almost completely over the bike - not to the side - - this is of course with extreme braking for tight twisty turns.

Exiting the turn I will (if possible) accelerate out to achieve maximun speed.

If the turn does not require braking or not much braking I still try to use all the road I can .... hitting the apex and keeping my weight as low as possible. Keeping the aero-tuck throughout. These are the fastest turns you take on descents.

Countersteering usually is used when wet/gravel conditions are present or possibly when correcting during the turn. Correction usually and hopefully occurs with loss of traction or while reacting to other cyclists / cars/ motorcycles. Pedaling through high speed turns also helps keep centrifugal force (I know this is debateable) working to keep you up.

The important stuff as I see it is to pay attention as to what is down the road so you are prepared as things are coming at you quickly - and to keep you center of mass as low as possible while making the apexes (using all the road or taking the inside line-only if possible.) Nice tires help too.

A lot of this learned and refined on a 54xxl Colorado TG with Time Criterium Carbon fork on Mt.Tam. Cali. - Matt

[Smiley]

I saw that you registered yesterday, I wonder how many here know of the dignitary that you are. Dario used to drop by the old Phorum quite a bit so its nice to see your here. Thanks for your advice, it still is really a nail biting experiance for me to let it all go especially since most of the turns around here are sharp and you don't know what to anticipate from the road surface in front of you. I will practice what advice Bruce and you have offered here. Now only if the jerk chimed in with his euro experiances my day will be complete.

[Dr. Doofus]

1) read the book "A Twist of the Wrist" -- a tome on motorcycle racing.


2) Start riding a Harley (or reasonable substitute).


My old coach got me on both 1 and 2, and it took about a year, but I became a demon descender. Davis Phinney turned him on to both the book and the big bike, and when you learn how to handle a motorcycle downhill, it changes everything on a bicycle.


Robert

Who lives where its pretty flat

[jerk]

doofus is right......motorcycles are a good way to practice descending.....most of the jerk's riding has been in relativly flat northern europe and eastern new england so take what the jerk says with a grain of salt....descending is all about balance of the bicycle and the rider and due to the higher speeds bad bikes become really bad and good bikes become really good...try to get as LOW as possible keep in the drops for the twisties and try to get that fat gut of yours on the top tube....the jerk has always found that the fastest line downhill is in many ways dependent on the turn. brake before entering the turn....the front brake provides most of the stopping power but on long decents don't forget to alternate if things reallly start to fade on you....often times descending is a good place to save energy for the climbs...try to decrease your frontal area as much as possible....the jerk likes to almost cup the stem on the tops and pull the shoulders together with my face almoston the stem....you can pinch the top tube with your knees as well.....
the jerk

[M_A_Martin]

Everything I learned about descending tight twisty turns I learned on my mortocycle.

There are all sorts of things I find I do better on the bicycle when I've been out riding my motorized version for a while, both road and trail. I anticipate better, react quicker, go faster (on my bicycle) My post on riding turns would echo both Dr. Dufus and the Jerk. I have to pick up a copy of that book...although I probably won't get back on a mortocycle again. Talk about heebie jeebies.

That said, I think I may be able to add something to help.

Smiley. I think that you probably have all the mechanics required to ride twisties, but it isn't the mechanics of riding turns that really gets you, its the brain part. The mortocycle helps you get your brain around the technique.

The biggest thing that I've carried over from the motorcycle to the bicycle is to look further ahead. WAY further ahead, look through the turn, not AT the turn.
Yeah, you've got to keep an eye out for gravel and whatnot, but if you're looking through the turn, you've already seen it. You shouldn't be looking AT the turn. When you're in the turn, you're already looking to the straight or the next turn.

When I just ride a bicycle, I find that I'm looking too close to the front wheel, when riding the twisties you really do lead with your eyes.

Good luck with that Smiley.

[SPOKE]

as Mr Jerk pointed out "balance" is key. Mary Ann's thoughts about looking thru the turn are extremely criticle. on thing that i haven't heard mentioned is staying relaxed. this is kind of tough, especially if you are not comfortable with the sensation of speed. i think what causes most of us to go much slower down a twisty decent is the thought of "not knowing" what's ahead eg: road surface, gravel, water, potholes and such.
Davis Phinny's book is filled with plenty of good advice regarding taking sharp turns at high speed. the most difficult thing is finding desents twisty enuf to practice.
some basics that i use may be of some help. make sure you're in the drops with the brakes covered. if you feel you must slow for a turn scrub off most of the speed before you start the turn using both front and rear brakes. at the same time you must set yourself up for the turn by positioning you & bike tho the outside of the turn. this allows you to see deeper into the turn as well as lessons the amount of lean required to make it around the turn. once i'm setup i weight the outside pedal and generally lean the bike to the inside and keep my upper body positioned over the TT. (this is contrary to my motorcycle knee dragging exploits) if i need to make any adjustments to my line i change the lean angle of the bike by the pressure i apply on the weighted pedal. i also find that i tend to carry a little more weight over the front wheel which tends to minimize any possible speed wobble. the amount of pressure (pulling/pusing) on the handle bars is very minimal at high speeds. it's extremely important that any steering, breaking, leaning input be smooth and delibriate.
a simple rule that i can apply is that if the trun is marked 35mph i can most likely take the turn at double that while on my Ducati (not harley). on th bicycle the chance of me making it to 70mph are pretty slim here in the carolinas so making that turn is easy pickin's at 45-55mph.

[Smiley]

BUT I am not buying a motor bike. Being in the drops is something I will try as I also believe that you need to weight your front wheel and that is what I think being in the drops is all about. I am assuming getting the center of mass down low is what you all are talking about.

[M_A_Martin]

You can pick up a mortocycle for less than a new Serotta!

Just kidding. I totally understand. Think outside the box Smiley and translate their comments to the smaller bike.

Like Spoke says: Relax!

[gwk]

I have a car stashed at the top of the hill, load up my bike and drive back down. JUST KIDDING!! It's snowing here...Yuck!! George

[SPOKE]

keeping your m(ass) low is important but don't forget to use it too. moving your bosy around smoothly in order to make small weight transfer adjustments is extremely important. Mountain biking thru fast technical single track is a great way to learn many of the techniques.

[Cranky]

I learned about something called "Apex Anxiety" when I was riding motorcycles, and it is the phenomenon of looking right AT the apex of the turn and freaking out and heading right into it! Not good! As many of the others have stated, look THROUGH the turn and down the road after you have picked your course and avoided the dreaded "Skid Demons" in the turn. ( An actual term used in a 1967 Suzuki S6 Hustler manual..gotta love the Japanese!) Also, I like to lead with my rear brake and apply the front after before getting into the turn.

[M_A_Martin]

Spoke,

Ya think Smiley is more apt to buy a mountain bike than a motorcycle?

I can see him doing a superman now!

(just teas'n smiley)

Ginger

[flydhest]

Smiley,

I think the hill descending toward Broad Branch is a nice one to practice. That or Sugarloaf "Mountain".

We can practice sometime together (once the snow melts) if you'd like.

Adding to what people have said, weight distribution is important. In this regard, I think motorcycles and bicycles are different and if you haven't been riding a moto for a long time, picking it up isn't going to help your bike descending.

Hands in the drops, arms bent, but also slide your butt back a bit. Get long over the length of the bike. Push down on the outside pedal. Inside knee pinned against the top tube. I disagree that you want the pedals horizontal. Through winding turns, I tend to back pedal a half rotation for each turn (assuming I'm going so fast I don't need to pedal) and always have the outside pedal down. Inside arm pushing.

Picking a line is at least as important and that takes a lot of practice and thinking.

If you want, I can show you what I know, which is basically my previous technique refined by Davis Phinney and Connie Carpenter's instruction. They're amazing. The best descending memory I have is sitting on Davis Phinney's wheel on a 3 mile descent in Italy. I was feeling reasonably good about myself, staying with him for a while at like 40 mph and then we came to a serious freakin' turn it it seemed like he accelerated away from me in the turn. I was out of the saddle chasing on a descent. He was just chillin'.

[jerk]

Originally posted by Smiley
BUT I am not buying a motor bike. Being in the drops is something I will try as I also believe that you need to weight your front wheel and that is what I think being in the drops is all about. I am assuming getting the center of mass down low is what you all are talking about.


you know what else helps weight the front wheel? See the jerk's last siignoff...A LONG STEM!

[SPOKE]

M_A,
Trees, mud holes, roots and rocks make for good practice. having the bike always moving around under you then forcing control with the rest of your body really helps develop the reflexes necessary to keep a road bike under you.
will Smiley get that MTB?? maybe. i sure have a blast on mine!

[Orin]

While we are mentioning motorcycles, might I suggest "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough. Almost a "must read". It covers many of the dangers we see on bicycles as well. I'd also recommend taking an MSF basic course. Here in WA, the subsidised cost is about $100 and passing the course waives the state test for a motorcycle endorsement. Even if you don't buy a motorcycle, the course is well worth the time and money.

Riding a motorcycle, it's not just the downhill corners that you are taking at 'speed' (where speed is that of traffic, not in excess of speed limits and recommendations), but all corners. Lots more practice :). In addition, you have to control the bike by steering it - countersteer actually. You can't get away with steering with your butt which works somewhat on a bicycle (or a bicycle riding no-hands wouldn't be possible). Most who have been riding a bicycle for may years countersteer naturally though - I believe I did as I found 'steering' the motorcycle natural... (BTW, anyone who disbelieves in countersteering should try riding a tricycle which goes in the direction you point the bars - you'll likely end up going in circles - I do.)

Late Apexes. A good thing. You get to see further through the corner before comitting yourself and might see that patch of gravel or rock before too late. As someone else noted an early apex can end up in running out of road on the outside. A too late apex will usually just cost some speed.

Trail braking. Also a good thing. And in fact, if you don't, on a downhill corner, you have to slow down way below what you could make it around the corner at to account for the acceleration due to gravity... in other words, slow down enough that you can make the corner with no brakes means you have lots of unused traction at the beginning of the turn - why not use that extra traction for braking and a little more speed entering the turn?

Knees against the top tube? Well, it will damp any shimmy if nothing else (don't ask; I believe trail braking damps shimies too).

Orin.

[MadRocketSci]

A lot of good suggestions on how to time your turn. I'll have to give them a try.

I go down a lot of twisty stuff and have always thought of it like carving a turn on skis. It seems to work so far, as some of the turns I take are like 150 degree at 10-12 percent grades (page mill, for example).

I've tried descending in the drops and on the hoods. There's good things about both. Others have talked about the drops. The thing I like about the hoods is that you have more vertical motion, and can see farther down the road.

So, in applying the techniques of downhill skiing, I start with my body high at the beginning. This is the "unweighting" phase of a ski turn. I also counter-steer to get my wheels to the outside of the turn and let gravity do some of the work. At the beginning of the turn, gravity + the static friction of your tire perpendicular to the direction of travel (ie towards the center of the arc) work together, so less friction is needed and there's less chance of skidding out. As you make it through the turn, gravity does less and less work, until it starts to work against you as you turn across the "fall line" - the straightest way down the hill. As this happens, you need more and more friction from your tires to give you the necessary centripetal acceleration. Since static friction (static because the tire contact is not moving with respect to the road) is dependent (linearly) on the normal (perpendicular to the road) force, you want to make sure that you always have enough downward force on the tire contact point. This is where "angularization" is used. If you watch skiers, they try to keep their upper bodies perpendicular to the mountain, so that you get the sensation of almost falling down the mountain. This is so that their edges get weighted properly and don't slide out. So when I turn, the bike is at whatever angle it needs to be, but my upper body is still "upright". Having your upper body face down the mountain also helps keep your weight on the tires, and is the reason for straightening your inside arm. Ditto weighting the outside pedal. As the turn progresses across the hill and gravity is trying to pull you out of the turn, the upper body is getting lower and lower to resist gravity (lower cg) and keep from pitching over my front tire if I'm still braking. Again, this is where you need your tires to provide the most center-seeking friction. Starting the next turn, I bring up my body, countersteer, and repeat.

In skiing, you try to weight the front of your skis to start the front edges into the carve. This is one part where the analogy breaks down, as I do most of my turning with my butt back.

I've never ridden a motorcycle, but there are a few differences that I'm wondering about with biking. First, most of the mass is in the bike, so I'm guessing that Ducati's and the like are pretty bottom heavy so that the tires are properly weighted when banked. Maybe the rider just needs to stay out the way of the road. There's also a front suspension to help with the forward pitchover. So, on a road bike, i would think that the position of the rider matters a lot more because the rider is where the mass of the system's at.

Does this make sense? just my late night rambling! :o

[Tom]

The discussion of angularization on skis and bikes is well taken. Having skiied a fair bit I know I take that same feeling into a corner on a bike.

Another thing comes over from snowboarding. (Alpine board. Trix are for kids.) When you put your weight to the front, the board wants to turn. When you put your weight back, it wants to go fast and not turn. The same is true on the bike, to a lesser degree, so when I want to carve on the bike I move back a little. I have tried weight forward on a hill to find out where the limits might be and what I remember thinking was "Ah. That's what they mean by twitchy."

For some reason, though, I can't keep up with BBDave on a downhill.

Until we get to the one-lane blind underpass where he graciously lets me go around him and enter first. He knew it was there, just forgot to mention it.

Me: "Holy S--t!"
Him: Maniacal laughter.

Pehaps he can explain his secret.

[Kevan]

who ride downhill, straight-away, mind you, with their hands positioned close to the stem and resting their chest on the bar as well... getting all, or almost all, their weight positioned over the front wheel so they can scream...speed that is.

Techniques change, but I remember an article suggesting pointing your inside knee into the turn. Curious that motorcycle racing uses this same approach, though for cyclists the idea of dragging your bare knee through a turn is well....disjointed?

Also, there were recommendations that you treat your bike as an outrigger as you plow through a turn, keeping the bike as upright as possible and instead shifting your body into the turn.

If we consider an example of taking a steep hairpin turn to the left, and based on all that I've read above, the rider would best position themself far to the right on the roadway as they continue on the straight-away applying both front and back brakes to suitably slow the bike as the turn approaches. Braking level is dependent on the technical nature of the turn, road conditions, and the rider's basic wherewithal, or balls as someone pointed out. As I proceed downhill I keep one leg fully extended downward, helping to lower my center just a little. The 3 and 9 position may work for a steadier steed, but the Calfee's are a bit twitchy, and that extended leg does keep the frame in check. I will shift the extended leg from time to time so as it is always positioned on the outside of the turn. Hands are in the drops, two fingers for each hand are used to control the brake levers the other two for bar grip. My chest is as low as I can comfortably place it. Chin close to the stem, body's weight balanced over the entire frame fore and aft. Now it is suggested that I hug the TT with my knees as I plow through the apex. I would also assume that as we begin to upright the bike, just beyond the apex, we should begin pedaling again, in a sense, pulling the bike through the turn, regaining control and direction, much as you would do with any motor vehicle. The pedaling would help redirect the momentum of my body's mass from pulling to the outside.

Sorry for the blabbering, just missing the riding and this topic gave me the opportunity to feel the breeze again.

[Climb01742]

my motto: go up hills as fast as possible. come down hills as slowly as possible. color me wimpy.

[CIII_bill]

Davis Phinney cornering.

[CIII_bill]

Davis Phinney cornering.

[EdK]

I have ridden with Mr. Phinney as well as a number of other world class decenders. I agree with most every post. The trick is applying the advise of others to your decending style. Being able to interpret and apply coaching expertise to your own activity is almost as great a skill as giving the advise. The one piece of advice that made descending crystal clear for me was counter intuitive when I first heard it. Pushing on the inside drop while negotiating a turn. Not certain the physiscs behind it but once I got over the intuitve fear that I was going to push my self off the edge of the road and into some form of flight ending in an ugly bloody pile, I picked up 5-15 mph in curvy descent speed. Inside knee against the top tube, outside leg pushing down on the pedal and inside hand pushing on the drop away from the direction of the turn. Anyway it worked for me. My .02 cents.

[Sandy]

Carefully, very carefully.

Sandy

[MadRocketSci]

I think the reason for straightening your inside arm is to "open" up your upper body to face down the hill. When you bend forward at the waist to tuck, this gets your cg more over the tire contact point, where you want the most downward force to maintain static friction. Facing your upper body along the direction of your bike makes it easier for you to fall over at high lean angles (increased moment arm from tire forces to cg) and puts less downward pressure on the tire contact point.

Similar reasoning goes for putting all your weight on the outside pedal and having little on your butt.

Not a physics expert, though, so there may be other explanations...

[Orin]

Ed,

Pushing on the side you want to turn to is how they teach countersteer in the motorcycle classes... some motorcycles need constant pressure to the inside to stay in a turn. A geometry thing.

Could be your pushing on the inside drop is just keeping the bike 'turning in' and preventing the geometry of the bike from straightening your line. If the push is down as well as forward, then it's adding weight to the front wheel and increasing traction as well.

Orin.

[Matt Barkley]

A lot of detailed informative posts covering a lot of ground...

Another reflection I would offer is how the rider is set up on the bike:

A early post mentioned (not in these exact words) that the faster you go on the bike the more some of a bikes inadequacies exhibit themselves in more glaring / consequential ways.

A number of replies also mentioned lower center of gravity and one mentioned longer stems / lower stems.

If a cyclists isn't set-up properly (debateable) in the first place it can make quite a bit of these advice-replies more a challenge or fight when trying them out. Countersteering my be the only way of getting down the twisties. Leaning and getting one's center of gravity anywhere near low enough to perform fluidly through fast corners is near impossible if you are set up with other ideas of fit in mind. We are all different - "sizes", "flexibility", "importance of checking out scenery on the way down the twisties" - but fit is fairly critical (as well as a bike capable of what you may be asking of it - Harley vs. Ducati) - Matt

This is not to say everyone should be able to take there hands of the bars at 45 plus MPH screeming down hill! - but that bike sure feels spot-on good if you are comfortable enough to do that!

[theoldman]

A very interesting thread!

To cycle at high speeds down a twisty road takes a certain feel for the road, the bike and knowledge on how a bike steers. Most cyclist ride a bike purely on instinct without every truly understanding the mechanics of how a bike steers at speed. This was illustrated years ago to me in a study on motorcycling accidents.

In the study they found that very often the motorcyclist turned into the danger instead of away from the danger. The study went on to show that when confronted with a danger, the mind takes over and tries to steer the motorcycle away from the danger, but because of how a motorcycle (and bicycle) react at speed, the steering action actually directed the motorcycle in the opposite direction to what was desired.

Motorcycles and bicycles control their direction differently depending upon speed. At very low speeds (parking lots, walking speed) we turn the handlebars in the intended direction. However at higher speeds, the mechanics change and we actually use counter steering to control our direction. That is, we angle the bars away from our intended direction, thereby leaning into the curve. It is not actually turning, but changing the angle of the front tire as it relates to our bikes.

Counter steering techniques are more pronounced on large motorcycles, primarily because of the higher speeds, size of the tires and the mass of the bike. But the mechanics and physics are the same with bicycles when a bike is moving quickly. Such as when descending down a twisty road.

The first step in becoming a better downhill rider is to practice cornering in a safe environment. This involves consciously experimenting with putting pressure on the handlebar and watching the results. Press down on the left side (in other words turn right very slightly) and watch how the bike reacts. Repeat in the opposite direction. Once we become conscious that a turn to the right goes left and vice versa, we can begin to better understand how the bike will react. The important thing is to practice cornering at higher speeds and to understand how the bike will react.

To turn left, you press down on the left side and lean to the left. To turn right, press on the right side, lean and turn right. We do it by feel most of the time and never think twice about it. However, when we are going fast, outside our comfort zone, we can start using our brain instead of our instinct. This like the motorcyclist that turns into danger is what causes us to lose our line and have problems descending.

Years ago I retrained some cyclists on how to turn. We would go out to a shopping center parking lot on a Sunday (they used to be closed on Sunday’s!) and have them come towards me as fast as they could. I would then point to a direction to turn. At the beginning of the training, the rider would always start by going the wrong way and then correct. By the end they would get used to doing it right the first time.

A few people have made the analogy about downhill skiing and cycling down a mountain road. They are right; carving big superG turns down a steep hill feels the same as carving up a mountain road on your favorite Serotta. It feels the same and the body is probably more or less in the same position. The mental preparation for each turn is the same, and you are looking to the next turn in the same way.

The only other thing of note is that when going into a turn, it is best to shed the speed before leaning over going into the apex. If you try to brake in the middle of a turn, the bike will try to stand up and make it more difficult to hold your line. If you need to shed some speed, in my opinion, it is safer to use the back brake to reduce your speed. Popular opinion says use the front, but I have had better luck using the back brake in a corner.

I would love to write a book on this subject. But in summary, the first step in learning how to ride fast on a bicycle is relearning how a bike actually turns. Once we become unconsciously competent on how to turn, we are in a better position to enjoy fast mountain descents.

[Smiley]

I have learned so much from all the responses and will take this advice and go out and practice , NOT WITH THE SNOW AND ICE but once we thawed out. I need to also overcome my demons as Speed is not my Friend as Spoke would NOT say.

[Too Tall]

Two things Smiley man. First, get on the back of my tandem and if you can get nice and Zen than that's the first lesson. To have good control at speed it helps to be loose as a goose.

Second, follow a rider who you know is damn good and watch.

My personal Hero is Jim Hargget. He only race in the 60's and early 70's and spent the next 30 years handing out hard lessons to local racers. I learned so much training with that guy.

[Tom]

Theoldman's comment about riders turning toward the danger reminded me.

Don't look at what you don't want to hit! If you're skiing (or riding MTB) through the trees look between them. Likewise, on a corner, don't get mesmerized by the gravel, the hole or the guard rail because they'll put their evil eye on you and you'll head right into them.

I still can't get the tree thing right.

[Marron]

I'm suprised no one's mentioned this excellent book on road and mountain bike descending.