Descending -- Thoughts

[jblande]

So three things recently got me thinking about descending.

1) I moved from the flattest part of the United States to one of the hilliest parts of Europe.

2) I had to replace brake pads quicker than ever before.

3) I read this (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/whats-new/zero-tolerance-descent.360.html) .

So share your thoughts and experiences on major descents.


I am particularly curious about a few things.

Do you ever get nervous or scared?
-I do, especially if there is a strong cross wind.

What do you think in order to deal with this?
-I have noticed that I repeat the mantra 'trust the bike', 'trust the bike'.

What have you done to become better at descending? Especially on serpentine courses?
-I have tried to focus on shifting the weight through moving my knees and hands to get my weight moving in anticipation of the curve. I would be really curious about other techniques, as I am by no means an expert at descending.

Share your thoughts please....

[Ray]

Unless you're racing, stay within your comfort zone. You're comfort zone will get faster over time, just from doing it, by making small mistakes and adjusting and LEARNING what you and the bike can do. But taking chances you're not comfortable with MAY show you how much more your bike can do than you thought or they MAY leave you in a ditch, or against a tree, etc. I don't get scared descending because I go as slow as I need to not to. Sometimes that's pretty slow - I remember a descent during the Finger Lakes Ramble several years ago where it was pouring rain, I'd never seen the road we were on, and my brakes weren't doing much unless I stayed on them sort of constantly to keep the water off the rim. People were whipping past me the whole way down. Didn't care - wasn't gonna go faster than I knew I could control. Other times its pretty fast - also in the Finger Lakes on the Bon Ton Roulet ride, I started at the back of a pretty big group heading down a long descent into Ithaca from the west, toward Treman State Park. Beautiful twisty descent, good road - I ended up at the park well ahead of the group I'd started the descent behind. In neither case did I get out of my comfort zone.

And yeah, big winds can scare me. If I'm descending and a sudden gust of wind initiates a speed wobble or pushes me across a lane of the road, I get the bike under control and slow the hell down. If you're racing and the results REALLY matter to you and you're willing to risk your life for them, the equation changes. Otherwise, only go as fast as you can with dry shorts! Some of its age related too - when I was in my 30s I was much more willing to hang it out there than I am now. Which was stupid - I had young kids to support then. But its part of the wiring I guess.

-Ray

[Karin Kirk]

Where in Europe are you? I'm in southern Germany at the moment. Today is my last day here and I'll get one more ride in today, before it rains again (with any luck).

I enjoy descents at home (Montana) and usually whisk down without much of a thought. But coming down the epic Swiss passes is not fun for me. I enjoy the climb up a lot more.

For me, having the right relationship with your bike is an important factor. You are right you have to trust the bike and rely on it rather than fighting it through fast curves.

A primary technique that helps around the curves is to put much of my weight on the outside pedal. This feels stable. Then I adjust the amount of lean into the curve with my inside hand. Push down for a tighter turn, let up for a wider turn. When things are good I feel a nice balance between the outside foot and inside hand.

Another key thing is to look along the line you want to go. Try not to look right in front of you, or worse, over the edge of the road.

Lastly, I try to stay relaxed in the arms, shoulders and neck. When you're tense it's nearly impossible to have fluid movements.

Practice helps a lot too. Building on good experiences is important. There was a thread about this sometime in the last year that had a lot of helpful tips.

[soulspinner]

+1 on the relaxing of arms and fingers. After a close call Ill get tense for a bit and I actually tell myself to loosen my grip on the bars and focus ahead.

[rugbysecondrow]

So three things recently got me thinking about descending.

1) I moved from the flattest part of the United States to one of the hilliest parts of Europe.

2) I had to replace brake pads quicker than ever before.

3) I read this (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/whats-new/zero-tolerance-descent.360.html) .

So share your thoughts and experiences on major descents.


I am particularly curious about a few things.

Do you ever get nervous or scared?
-I do, especially if there is a strong cross wind.

What do you think in order to deal with this?
-I have noticed that I repeat the mantra 'trust the bike', 'trust the bike'.

What have you done to become better at descending? Especially on serpentine courses?
-I have tried to focus on shifting the weight through moving my knees and hands to get my weight moving in anticipation of the curve. I would be really curious about other techniques, as I am by no means an expert at descending.

Share your thoughts please....

It depends on my knowledge of the descent. Yes, I tend to be hesitent on them, but I think the proper word is deliberate. A) I don't have the skill level that others have (growing up in Illinois w/ no hills) B) Many of the roads I ride can have pot holes, sticks/ branches, FOD C) there are also many blind driveways and I need to be prepared to stop if somebody pulls out D) When I ride with others and I out weigh them often by 50-100 pounds (or more) I tend to gather downhill speed faster than them, so when in a group I have to work harder to stay within the group.

[jamesau]

I try to deal with crosswinds by getting in the drops and leaning into the wind. The best way to induce a lean is to countersteer: if wind from the right, apply pressure with right hand. The response is fast and the amount of lean is easy to modulate with the amount of pressure you apply. If the wind is strong enough, you can feel yourself and bike leaning over while going straight down the road.

[rnhood]

As your speed reaches 30mph +, take the entire lane. Its not longer wise to be considerate.

Watch for gaps in the mountains, especially as you round long curves. This is where a cross winds can really surprise you. Ride the tuck position most of the time, especially in windy conditions.

If you can't see what's ahead through a curve, slow down a little. Missing a curve can cause a lot of damage.

Ride your best bike, one with a good stiff front end. It will help bestow confidence on your fast descents.

Watch carefully for gravel, debris and any road imperfections. Adjust your speed so that you have time to react.

[Ken Robb]

Lots of good comments here. On any two-wheeled vehicle you can almost always lean over and tighten your line more than you think possible. If you find yourself in a corner going "too fast" most folks' reaction is to get on the brakes too hard. They often straighten up to brake and go right off the pavement or brake too hard while leaned over, lose traction and slide out. Usually the only way out is to push down on the inside bar more than you think possible, look where you WANT to go, pray, and be surprised and relieved when you make it through. :beer:

It's easier to write about sitting on my couch than it is to do it at 40+ mph. :)

[flickwet]

You can go as fast as you can see, and only go as fast as you can see, look where your going not where you are, apex to apex, width of lane, visualize . Karin's right, weight the outside pedal, throw body weight inside, watch a motorcycle road race, conceptually the same, lean yourself more the bike less, try it, practice it you'll be surprised, the limits can really be quite high. but many stress the opposite which in crits or a peloton may be applicable.

[Smiley]

So three things recently got me thinking about descending.

1) I moved from the flattest part of the United States to one of the hilliest parts of Europe.

2) I had to replace brake pads quicker than ever before.

3) I read this (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/whats-new/zero-tolerance-descent.360.html) .

So share your thoughts and experiences on major descents.


I am particularly curious about a few things.

Do you ever get nervous or scared?
-I do, especially if there is a strong cross wind.

What do you think in order to deal with this?
-I have noticed that I repeat the mantra 'trust the bike', 'trust the bike'.

What have you done to become better at descending? Especially on serpentine courses?
-I have tried to focus on shifting the weight through moving my knees and hands to get my weight moving in anticipation of the curve. I would be really curious about other techniques, as I am by no means an expert at descending.

Share your thoughts please....


select the right bike helps too, lower BB and longer trails for the front end make a big difference to me.

[jblande]

thanks everyone for the very helpful remarks.

i have made huge strides since i moved to konstanz (karen--perhaps you're not too far away then?) a year ago. the hills i know in the area, i can take basically without braking. except one, coming down from schiener berg, there is a set of curves i hit usually about 40 mph--almost invariably i brake there. i am trying to get that out of my system.

because april was so wonderful here, i also did more riding in thurgau than last year. i noticed that my lack of familiarity made me brake more, grip harder, just get anxious.


i haven't ridden an alp pass yet. one of the reasons i wrote, is that once june rolls around and it is a bit warmer, i'd like to. descending somehow intimidates me more than the climb.

as far as the bike goes, i noticed a huge difference a few months ago when i got a new bike. i feel significantly more confident and am much faster. i think smiley is right in that respect.

i'm just looking to get better and faster now that summer is imminent. thanks for all the helpful suggestions.
:beer:

[Karin Kirk]

Now I remember that you moved to Konstanz. I am right across the lake not too far from Meersburg. Almost neighbors! I just got back from a cold/raw ride. I thought it was supposed to be warm and pleasant here? :rolleyes:

Next time I come we should try to do a ride together.

George K (Gottard on this forum) is an authority on the passes. I rode with him and we had a super time. He can tell you which ones have mellower downhills. The only pass that I didn't cringe the whole way down was Grimselpass down toward Gletsch. Some of the roads have nasty cement pilings instead of a guard rail. Those are hard on the nerves.

The bike I have here is not confidence-inspiring. I am certain that does not help matters. [Edited to add: this is an old steel Serotta frame that does not fit me too well - it's neither a current Serotta model nor a Kirk.] Good for you that you are liking your new bike.

Riding the passes is a wonderful experience overall. I am certain that you will love it! Let us know where you go, take pictures, etc! :)

[MattTuck]

Lots of good comments here. On any two-wheeled vehicle you can almost always lean over and tighten your line more than you think possible. If you find yourself in a corner going "too fast" most folks' reaction is to get on the brakes too hard. They often straighten up to brake and go right off the pavement or brake too hard while leaned over, lose traction and slide out. Usually the only way out is to push down on the inside bar more than you think possible, look where you WANT to go, pray, and be surprised and relieved when you make it through. :beer:

It's easier to write about sitting on my couch than it is to do it at 40+ mph. :)

This may or may not be true. It is not something I'd recommend testing out for the fun of it. I understand the argument, but it is an entirely different thing when you're out on the road. Do you lean HARD at 45 mph, or try to dump speed in hopes of a less traumatic impact?

Take it from someone who has flipped over a guard rail at 30ish MPH after bleeding a good chunk of speed, there are only 2 reasons to go faster than you feel comfortable on any descent.

1. You're a pro and get paid to race bikes and take crazy risks. ( I considering riding at 60 mph down a mountain on a 23mm tire a crazy risk)
2. You're trying to beat a lightening storm off the top of a mountain.


After my crash (which I was lucky to escape with bruises and 2 weeks of very sore recovery rides), I do not push it down hills any faster than 30-35, and I really prefer to stick around the high 20's. (MPH)


I usually sit up on descents to use my body as a brake. And also, I'm 31 now... I don't heal as fast as I used to.

One appropriate quote I remember, "Before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you."

[Ken Robb]

I wrote that the rider is in a corner "too fast". That to me means he wasn't planning to be at that speed and now he has to do something about it. "Too fast" for most riders means that they have to do something or run off the road. It's usually too late for braking so the only option is to lean over more and tighten the line. Even if you run out of traction and slide out I think that's preferable to riding into a fence or over a cliff.

I never meant to suggest that anyone ride too fast for his ability or conditions.

[MattTuck]

I didn't think you did. Sorry if my post implied that. Not what I meant. Simply that when you're in the position of "oh *****!", it goes against many instincts to lean harder into the turn.

[Dekonick]

Where I live there are a lot of really nice descents. They may not be 15km long, but several are around a mile or 2.

What helps -

A good bike fit
proper tires + inflation
A good bike with brakes in good repair

I like to bomb hills when I know the terrain, but use caution where I know sand/grit has a habit of collecting, there are driveways, or where I will encounter traffic at the end. A few tricks I use (don't know if they are 'right' or not, but they work for me) Karen already mentioned. One big mistake is to brake in a turn. Scrub your speed before you hit the corner. I also find that using your rear brake will lessen loading the front wheel with weight before entering a curve. The front brake has more stopping power, but remember it will load the front wheel and can change your line...

If you let it, you will find your bike will do more than you thought possible. I still get passed sometimes by crazy riders - just because your bike can keep you on the road and upright does not mean you should always fly. All you need is one car backing out of a driveway to change your perspective forever.

So - to recap - get a good fitting, a bike you trust and in good repair. Learn your terrain. Scrub speed before you turn and resist the urge to brake in the turn. Have fun, but temper this with caution - a little fear is a good thing. Respect your fear but don't let it control you.

Enjoy!

[Ken Robb]

I didn't think you did. Sorry if my post implied that. Not what I meant. Simply that when you're in the position of "oh *****!", it goes against many instincts to lean harder into the turn.

That's exactly my point--it's hard to make yourself do it but at some point it's the best thing to try to avoid a crash. I know this through sad experiences(yes plural--I'm a slow learner) on motorcycles. :rolleyes:

[Karin Kirk]

I want to clarify my previous post and point out that my own bikes that fit me are awesome for descending. The bike I have over here in Germany is an old Serotta frame, some sample bike that I don't think was ever a production model. This frame is too big and as a whole does not inspire confidence while descending. Someday I dream of bringing my JKS over here to give that a whirl in the Alps! :)

[erector]

I know that descending can be tricky, and God knows I'm not great at it, but a HUGE piece of advice that I remember is the fact that:

A. the tires are AT MOST 25 MM across, leaning the BIKE only gets you so far... lean YOURSELF gets you much more, but the bike can't get too horizontal, or you'll end up flat on your back.

B. USE and ABUSE your handlebars - apply that pressure to your outside hand like CRAZY to help stabilize the front end and keep your balance

C. PUSH DOWN that outside pedal, same thought as "B" but with the pedal

D. One more key piece that I've picked up from "someone in the know" is... keep your feet level with each other and knees in. I know that some TDF people drop the outside foot and point the inside knee, which is great, if you're on a motorcycle that has got 4" wide tires, but with cycling, tuck the inside knee in, keep the feet level, apply the pressures where necessary

SO - I usually practice my descents on HWY9, coming down from Skyline. It's about 7 Miles of descent, 2 good turns at the top, and a gradual grade. Before the advice above, my avg speed down the hill was ~23-25 mph, slamming breaks when it got steep/tight. After the advice, avg speed got up to 34-35mph, I RARELY touch let alone fully clench the breaks, and I have SO MUCH MORE confidence around the bends.

note: some guys average 50mph down the hill... but that's either balls of steel, or the invincibility (ignorance) of youth

[Bytesiz]

I know that descending can be tricky, and God knows I'm not great at it, but a HUGE piece of advice that I remember is the fact that:

A. the tires are AT MOST 25 MM across, leaning the BIKE only gets you so far... lean YOURSELF gets you much more, but the bike can't get too horizontal, or you'll end up flat on your back.

B. USE and ABUSE your handlebars - apply that pressure to your outside hand like CRAZY to help stabilize the front end and keep your balance

C. PUSH DOWN that outside pedal, same thought as "B" but with the pedal

D. One more key piece that I've picked up from "someone in the know" is... keep your feet level with each other and knees in. I know that some TDF people drop the outside foot and point the inside knee, which is great, if you're on a motorcycle that has got 4" wide tires, but with cycling, tuck the inside knee in, keep the feet level, apply the pressures where necessary

SO - I usually practice my descents on HWY9, coming down from Skyline. It's about 7 Miles of descent, 2 good turns at the top, and a gradual grade. Before the advice above, my avg speed down the hill was ~23-25 mph, slamming breaks when it got steep/tight. After the advice, avg speed got up to 34-35mph, I RARELY touch let alone fully clench the breaks, and I have SO MUCH MORE confidence around the bends.

note: some guys average 50mph down the hill... but that's either balls of steel, or the invincibility (ignorance) of youth

I've always be taught to put pressure on the outside pedal and I think most here agree with that. However, I've never heard "keep your feet level with each other". I don't think I could put more weight on my outside pedal and at the same time keep my feet level to each other. Could you explain more?

Of course, I've could have misread your post...

[sailorboy]

1) Try to find someone there who is good at descending and will also take it easy enough to let you stay behind them as you learn how to pick good lines etc and just try to stay on the exact same line as them.

2) If you have the right brain for it (wikipedia: mirror neurons), you might even benefit from just watching good quality youtube videos or cycling videos where a moto chases a good descender for a while. There is a great one with Cancellara on it. I always find that I pick up on little things they do to handle turns at speed when I watch it enough. Granted, they have the whole road to use in a race, but you can still learn from watching.

[David Kirk]

IMO to go downhill fast requires good solid technique. With solid technique it no longer requires balls of iron and you can relax and enjoy the ride. Going fast becomes fun and even relaxing. I love descending.

The fundamental basic that needs to be learned and practiced is "countersteering". You need to understand it and be able do it reflexively. You can practice at low speeds on a grassy field or in a parking lot and build the skill and don't need to risk life and limb learning it.

Once you have it you'll be leaving your buddies behind while they wonder when you grew such a big set.

Do a bit of googleing and searching in this forum and you'll come up with more then you care to about countersteering. All the other stuff (tire size, geometry, stem length....etc) matters not if you aren't using the proper technique.

Have fun!

dave

[fiamme red]

I do enjoy the sensation of executing a descent well, but since I don't have a natural knack for descending, I'll only "push" a descent that I know completely, and then only to the extent that I have visibility. I'll also include a safety factor when I'm descending, to account for the fact that I'm not the only person using the road. I'd rather finish the descent thinking, "I could have gone faster," than to have people saying about me, "He went too fast."

[mgm777]

Listen to what others have said. I live in the Boulder area and am constantly riding in the canyons and Mtns around here. This is what works for me:

1. Get on the drops
2. Extend your outside leg and apply downward pressure on the pedal during turns.
3. Keep your head up and eyes focused ahead.
4. Keep your upper body...neck, arms, and hands relaxed. Don't stiff arm it.
5. Loosen your grip on the bars...no white knuckles.
6. Use as much of the road as possible as safety and traffic dictates.
7. Anticipate your lines...like skiing...think ahead of your bike and anticipate the next curve and setup your line appropriately based on the radius.

Like Dave said, once you get comfortable with the proper technique, descending becomes less scary and more exhilarating. Be careful.

[Ken Robb]

one of the motorcycle riding schools has their "NO BS" bike with the bars stuck straight ahead. T
All those who think they turn a bike by leaning vs. counter-steering are invited to demo their skill. They all fail.

[David Kirk]

one of the motorcycle riding schools has their "NO BS" bike with the bars stuck straight ahead. T
All those who think they turn a bike by leaning vs. counter-steering are invited to demo their skill. They all fail.

Eggsactly - one needs to steer in the wrong direction ('counter'steer) to get the bike to lean in the desired direction.

Dave

[johnnymossville]

Not much I can add to the thread really except some observations on the bike itself.

Different bikes I've ridden have handled pretty differently downhill and being familiar with each's strengths/weaknesses comes with time. For instance, The 2009 Madone made riding downhill extremely fast almost effortless, whereas my Scott CR1takes way more attention in the corners to ride fast. At least it feels that way. My Jamis has crappy brakes and they'll overheat if I'm overly agressive with it, but it handles the curves almost as well as the Madone.

Just for fun, you should try a few other bikes just to see how they handle. For me riding downhill fast is a great way to gauge a bike's handling, and they are different.

[Ken Robb]

Not much I can add to the thread really except some observations on the bike itself.


Just for fun, you should try a few other bikes just to see how they handle. For me riding downhill fast is a great way to gauge a bike's handling, and they are different.

Amen! I have been on a couple of real wobblers---one was so bad that even clamping the top tube with both knees didn't stop the shaking. Any braking made it even worse. Luckily I was on the back side of Fort Ord on a weekday so there was no traffic. I was able to turn off the steep downhill road onto one 90 degrees to my right that was equally steep but uphill and regain control that way. I sold that POS bike. Interestingly I made the buyer take it down La Jolla Shores Drive to make sure it didn't wobble for him and it was fine. I weighed 210 lbs. and he was about 165 lbs. so that may have been the governing factor. Or maybe he was a better rider.

[benb]

I often suggest people take a Motorcycle Safety Foundation "Beginner Rider Course" even if they have no interest in motorcycles.

The problem with road cycling is there is no mechanism to pass technique on how to actually *ride* a bike to new riders. Everyone gets their new bike, pretends they are Pro, and goes to town. All we care about is building up our motor... And the Internet is a crappy place to learn to descend. Personally I'm probably a way better motorcyclist then a bicyclist, but I can't believe how often someone who has a way way bigger motor then me on a bicycle is pretty much incompetent at cornering or descending.

The motorcycle class is cheap in most states, they supply the motorcycle, they supply the helmets, etc.. and they *really* know what they are doing.

Motorcycle skills really really really apply well to descending and also to rain riding.

Important stuff:

- Counter steering - Want to go left, push on the left bar. Want to go right, push on the right bar. This is just a push to initiate a lean. Once you've achieved the lean angle you need, release it. The faster you're going, the more a bicycle starts to act like a motorcycle and the more important this becomes. At flat ground speeds our bikes are so slow and the front wheel is so light we get away with muscling the bike or "leaning" your body to turn. This is really subtle on a road bike but it is still extremely important.

- Elbows bent and hands super relaxed. Think playing the piano or typing on the computer. If your hands have too much tension to play the piano, you're doing it wrong.

- Understanding the "traction pie" as you lean over. You have X amount of traction. Leaning, Braking, Accelerating all take a piece of the pie. Any one of the 3 can cause you to lose traction and crash. The further you lean, the less you can brake and to some extent pedal.

- Slow, Look, Lean, Roll (On a bicycle descending this translates to slow down on the way into the corner, look through the corner, lean into the turn, release the brakes) This is really important on a road bike as well since it's extremely easy to "fade" brakes on a >10% average grade mountain road. This is really critical.. it's actually faster and far safer to overbrake heading into the turn and then let yourself coast through the turn then it is to "charge" into the corner and have to use the brakes while turning. Another good motorcycle term here is "Slow in, Fast out". By entering the turn slowly, you keep yourself from panicing, and over time you can let the bicycle accelerate more and more as you're going through the turn. Over time, you'll stretch your comfort level for cornering this way and learn when you can brake less.

- Be aware of your mental/physical state... climbing the mountain really hard and exhausting yourself reduces your ability to concentrate and safely descend quickly.

- Take deep breaths on the straights, remember to breathe.. probably a rare problem for bicyclists but it helps you calm your nerves.

Personally I put my outside foot down.. but I don't put any extra weight on it.. when you hang off a motorcycle at the track you are not concentrating weight on that outside foot either. I think that whole technique is not so useful on a road bicycle anyway.. but the point of it is to shift your body weight towards the inside of the turn to allow the bike to stay further upright. If you push down on the outside pedal/peg you are keeping your weight to the outside and not accomplishing much. Plus our bicycle saddles are so narrow you really can't shift around enough to accomplish much. With the outside foot down, we essentially have unlimited lean angle, the tires will give out before anything hard on the bike touches down. On a motorcycle that is not the case unless it's a full on race bike, so hanging off reduces the chances of your pegs, kickstand, exhaust, whatever touching down and levering the tire off the ground.

It is hard to train out but you want to just lean lean lean if you overcook a turn, it is always better to keep leaning until the tires can no longer hold then to do anything else. You'll get road rash but if you crash that way and just relax you won't get hurt nearly as badly as if you panic, hit the brakes, and either high side or go running off the outside of the road into traffic, trees, etc..

If there is one most important thing it is to LOOK where you want to go. If you are scared and look to the outside of the corner.. your bike will go there.

[Elefantino]

IMO to go downhill fast requires good solid technique. With solid technique it no longer requires balls of iron and you can relax and enjoy the ride. Going fast becomes fun and even relaxing. I love descending.
And solid technique requires practice. A lot.

Then, flying down the back side of a mountain at 50+ becomes the reason you almost look forward to sucking climbing the front side.

Trust me. I'm a Newtonian cyclist.

[erector]

So to the question about to to apply pressure when trying to keep your feet level. I actually went out today, and did the ride I talked about in the post, up HWY9 and down. Because of the interest, I paid particular attention to my descent, and actually FLEW down the hill.

I noticed, similar to spin classes I used to take during the rainy season, that while descending, I was not actually THAT seated on the saddle. I think this is key to the level feet pressure. I also noticed that the outside foot was level, but forward, and as the curve changed sides, so did the forward foot. I'll have to try on a longer descent, like HAmilton, to see how that changes. It will be interesting to see if I can stay in that kind of position for an 18 mile downhill.

However, handlebars were still HUGE, I kept the bike as vertical as I could, leaned with the body as much as I could, kept the feet level, and FLEW... with confidence no less.

All in all, a new PR up the hill + a smoking descent = a great day on the bike