Why Ford Motor Co. & Serotta?

[SerottaUK1]

Hi all,

I understand Serotta is using Ford Transit vehicles as a mobile fitting room but does anyone else find it a bit odd that Serotta is aligning itself with Ford for promotional purposes? First thing one sees on the Serotta website is a Meivici with large Ford Logos all over it.

I can't quite see how this is a benefit to Serotta's image/brand.

As a consumer when I think about Ford Motor Company as an entity/brand the thoughts that immediately pop into my head is a failure of a company that was bailed out by the government, lost money for decades and that has made cars & and SUV's of dubious quality. And relative to some of its peers in industry a downmarket image to boot.

I can't help but feel that Ford is latching on a brand with a positive environmental image for insincere purposes.

Also, much of the world in recent years is trying to be a bit more environmentally conscious due to potential climate change concerns, so it seems a bit incongruous that a company which manufacturers bicycles, would make this sort of a marketing choice.

According to Multinational Monitor, based on environmental and human rights records the Ford Motor Company is one of the 10 worst companies in the world in this regard.

http://www.multinationalmonitor.org/mm2005/112005/mokhiber.html#Ford

Does anyone have insight into this arrangement, or thoughts?

[johnnymossville]

Ford wasn't bailed out by the govt. I think you outta do a bit of research next time before blathering on. Ford is a brand with a long proud history in passenger cars as well as motorsports, with ups and downs like every other company.

[rugbysecondrow]

No insight, but I don't think Ford should be lumped in with GM and Chrysler regarding bail out $.

I also think Ford has been trying to recover its image and has some exciting new cars/vehicles out that are more environmentall friendly and fit the sporty, recreation seeking buyer. You are argue whether they have done it well or not, but it seems that is the direction they are heading in.

I think it is great that Ford, with a strong American name, is tied to Serotta which is a strong American company. I don't think it is incongrious as most people who ride bikes also own cars.

[Lifelover]

.....
I can't help but feel that Ford is latching on a brand with a positive environmental image for insincere purposes.



LOL Yea, the Ford Exec are running to find companies the size of Serotta to help thier image.

[Idris Icabod]

I think this is the biggest problem for the Ford company, the preconceived idea that they make inferior products. We have an Infiniti, Honda and a Nissan. The last car we bought, we test drove a Ford and liked it the best, I got a more honest dealer experience but then I drank the Kool-Aid, listened to my riding buddies and bought the Honda, I regret it. Next car will probably be a Ford.

Every time we visit the UK, which is at least once a year, we rent a Ford Mondeo Diesel. If they sold that in the States I would be down there today to buy that car!

[rdparadise]

SerottaUK:

As the others have said, Ford DID NOT get bailed out by the US gov't. They hired a new CEO about 4 years ago, Alan Mulally. He was in the aerospace industry at Boeing and when he realized he would never accede to the CEO position there looked for that position with another major company.

Alan put a plan in place when he arrived and it has been working marvelously. Their new models are delivering and customers are buying. The have been profitable now for all of 2009 and the first quarter of 2010.

They still have way too much debt and they are working on ways to bring this down to cut their leverage and interest fees.

Regarding the Meivicci AE with Ford badging, I'm not sure what this means for Serotta, other then they may have some sort of agreement to promote each other. Or maybe Serotta is receiving the Ford Transports free for painting one bike with the Ford logos and plastering it at trade shows on the web site.

Bob

[Blue Jays]

"...As a consumer when I think about Ford Motor Company as an entity/brand the thoughts that immediately pop into my head is a failure of a company that was bailed out by the government,
lost money for decades and that has made cars & and SUV's of dubious quality. And relative to some of its peers in industry a downmarket image to boot..."Incorrect.

"...Also, much of the world in recent years is trying to be a bit more environmentally conscious due to potential climate change concerns,
so it seems a bit incongruous that a company which manufacturers bicycles, would make this sort of a marketing choice..."How much do you think bicycle framesets, bicycle parts, and everything related to bicycling WOULD COST if delivered to the marketplace....by bicycle?

[csm]

I suspect troll-like intentions....
nobody mentioned the other "bailouts" that the American people have funded over the yrs.....

[93legendti]

May 2009:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/auto_industry/may_2009/ford_s_the_favorite_among_big_three_but_gm_chrysle r_rebound

64% of Americans now have a favorable opinion of Ford, up 10 points from 51% in early March. 26% view Ford unfavorably.

As for GM, 44% of Americans regard them favorably. 48% now have an unfavorable opinion of GM, down from 60% in the previous survey.

40% view Chrysler favorably.

[Matt-H]

The linked text on the worst companies of 2005 mentioned no human rights violations by the Ford Motor Company. A different perspective:

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Ford-Motor-Company-Expert-Makes-Business-Case-Human-Rights-Through-Erb-Institute-Course-1083094.htm

ANN ARBOR, MI--(Marketwire - November 30, 2009) - Although "going green" has dominated most companies' sustainability strategies, Ford Motor Company Manager of Social Sustainability David Berdish is teaching future business leaders that human rights holds the greatest unexplored promise for companies seeking to innovate, reduce risk and develop new markets sustainably. Berdish is delivering his insights through "Badlands: The Social Dimensions of Sustainability," a course being offered by the Erb Institute for Global Sustainable Enterprise at the University of Michigan this autumn.
According to recent research from Harvard Law School and the IRRC, only 28 percent of global companies have in place labor and human rights (LHR) policies covering their global supply chains. Through this course, Berdish, who is also a member of the Erb Institute's External Advisory Board, aims to shed light on the relationship between human rights issues in the developing world and the risks companies face when they fail to recognize this connection. Berdish also hopes to illustrate the measurable benefits of adopting sustainability strategy that incorporates human rights policies.
"Companies increasingly rely on the emerging market to source both export and domestic production," said Berdish. "With every new link in the supply chain comes a complex set of environmental and social decisions. This course aims to help future leaders -- Erb Institute graduates and others -- understand those decisions so that they can become forces for positive change in the business world."
Berdish's expertise in this area is born from his role managing both sustainability and human rights programs for Ford, which he describes as the only company in the automotive industry that has a code against which it assesses, evaluates and remediates its supply base, partners, etc. based on human rights issues.
"At the heart of Ford's supply chain strategy is a commitment to human rights and sustainability," says Berdish. "That commitment strengthens our ability to weather economic storms, by building stronger, trusting relationships with our suppliers, their employees and communities. The mutual commitment and alignment of values created reduce risks, improve access to markets and boost resilience and innovation during tough economic times."
Among the sustainability initiatives that Berdish has spearheaded is the Ford Urban Mobility Network, which offers integrated urban transportation solutions for people in cities that can't afford cars or where the infrastructure and congestion is so bad that they wouldn't want to travel by car.
"Sustainability is often limited to the 'green' label, which leaves out the host of social challenges that innovative companies can transform into business opportunities," said Rick Bunch, managing director of the Erb Institute for Global Sustainable Enterprise. "In giving Erb students the opportunity to raise important questions about these issues, Dave Berdish is helping expand awareness and invite new insights into social sustainability solutions for the future."
About the Frederick A. and Barbara M. Erb Institute for Global Sustainable Enterprise
Created in 1996, the Erb Institute for Global Sustainable Enterprise is a 50-50 partnership between the School of Natural Resources and Environment and the Stephen M. Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. The Institute fosters professional education, public outreach and scientific scholarship supportive of the transition to sustainability -- that is, meeting the fundamental needs of a growing human population in an equitable manner within the means of nature. Utilizing a collaborative approach, the Institute helps business, government and civil society organizations to achieve meaningful progress toward sustainability. Its mission is be a premier source of knowledge and leadership for the achievement of environmentally, economically and socially sustainable development and enterprise. For more information, visit www.erb.umich.edu.

[MattTuck]

I think the relationship could be useful to both companies (in terms of image, awareness, appeal, pecuniary, etc.), but I agree that it is (in my opinion) strange to have a "Ford" branded bicycle as the first thing people see when they come to Serotta's website.

[Mikej]

I suspect there was a check involved, signed by FORD.

[johnnymossville]

Jacques Anquetil would have looked great on the Meivici.

http://www.letour.fr/2009/PNC/COURSE/img/histoire_anquetil_02.jpg

[Mike748]

Perhaps Ford does not have a good reputation in the UK?

[SerottaUK1]

I suspect troll-like intentions....
nobody mentioned the other "bailouts" that the American people have funded over the yrs.....

No troll like intentions. Just looking for a better understanding of rationale for Serotta using Ford as brand image partnership.

Not bashing Ford either (yes corrected, they refused bailout money but still massively in debt). The question along these lines though is should U.S. still be manufacturing cars at all? India now owns marque (Jaguar/Land Rover) from Ford. Aston Martin, etc. Volvo divested to Geely.

Again, just find it a bit odd to see big corporate, automotive company associated with bicycle company. This is a personal feel though, not necessarily judging Serotta. I am sure they made this decision because they thought it in the best interest of Serotta.

[dave thompson]

Here in the U.S. Ford is the prime sponsor of the IronMan triathalon series, in which bikes are a huge part. Ford has been in the forefront of many human-powered spots for decades so I think the Serotta/Ford union should be a very good one. And I certainly wouldn't call Ford's image downmarket, especially of late!

[SerottaUK1]

Perhaps Ford does not have a good reputation in the UK?

Ford has a generally good reputation in UK. Mondeo has been massively successful and viewed as quality car (some compared it favorable or better performing than BMW 3 series).

if Ford's reputation in UK took a hit it was because they messed up Jaguar brand. Tried to put ford chassis/platform and slap Jaguar badge on it. UK now owns no car companies, only some assembly.

[MattTuck]

Ford has a generally good reputation in UK. Mondeo has been massively successful and viewed as quality car (some compared it favorable or better performing than BMW 3 series).

if Ford's reputation in UK took a hit it was because they messed up Jaguar brand. Tried to put ford chassis/platform and slap Jaguar badge on it. UK now owns no car companies, only some assembly.


Don't you guys still have Morgan Motors?

[rugbysecondrow]

No troll like intentions. Just looking for a better understanding of rationale for Serotta using Ford as brand image partnership.

Not bashing Ford either (yes corrected, they refused bailout money but still massively in debt). The question along these lines though is should U.S. still be manufacturing cars at all? India now owns marque (Jaguar/Land Rover) from Ford. Aston Martin, etc. Volvo divested to Geely.

Again, just find it a bit odd to see big corporate, automotive company associated with bicycle company. This is a personal feel though, not necessarily judging Serotta. I am sure they made this decision because they thought it in the best interest of Serotta.

The US manufacturs Toyotas, Fords, Kias, Chevy, Mitts, Honda, Volkwagon...nearly every major auto maker (Foriegn owned or not) are represented as manufactures in the US.

I care very little about company "ownership" so long as we maintain and employment stake in the game.

It seems you have some very strong opinions based on some very wrong information.

[SerottaUK1]

Here in the U.S. Ford is the prime sponsor of the IronMan triathalon series, in which bikes are a huge part. Ford has been in the forefront of many human-powered spots for decades so I think the Serotta/Ford union should be a very good one. And I certainly wouldn't call Ford's image downmarket, especially of late!

Downmarket may be a relative term but its global brand image is not terribly strong globally. Many perceive it a mid-market brand when compared to Audi, BMW, Aston Martin, Porsche, et al. especially in Asia (China, India) which has by a long way the largest autos growth globally.

Perceived by many (including GM, etc)as being slow to adopt next gen green tech. Overly reliant on SUV sales sucess until price of oil went vertical.

[SerottaUK1]

The US manufacturs Toyotas, Fords, Kias, Chevy, Mitts, Honda, Volkwagon...nearly every major auto maker (Foriegn owned or not) are represented as manufactures in the US.

I care very little about company "ownership" so long as we maintain and employment stake in the game.

It seems you have some very strong opinions based on some very wrong information.

I dont have strong opinions just asking question/soliciting opinions.

I agree with you that it matters little these days who owns a company or where a company is headquartered). We are in a globalized economy and there are literally thousands of components that go into the manufacture of a car all owned, manufactured, assembled by workers all over the world.

What information do I have that is wrong (other than my misstatment about Ford accepting gov't bailout money)?

[fourflys]

Overly reliant on SUV sales sucess until price of oil went vertical.

While I'm not a current Ford owner (dad worked for the factory for 37 years), they weren't any more reliant on SUV sales than any other US domestic auto maker... It's different over here than in the UK... When I went to visit my brother in Oxford a few years ago, I saw very few SUV's or other large vehicles and it seemed like 8 out of 10 cars were diesal... The US market is very different, although I think it's slowly changing...

Don't blame market demand on the manufactorers, they only produce what the market demands...

[snah]

Downmarket may be a relative term but its global brand image is not terribly strong globally. Many perceive it a mid-market brand when compared to Audi, BMW, Aston Martin, Porsche, et al. especially in Asia (China, India) which has by a long way the largest autos growth globally.

Perceived by many (including GM, etc)as being slow to adopt next gen green tech. Overly reliant on SUV sales sucess until price of oil went vertical.

I think this is one misconception. The Ford brand of vehicles are not intended to actually compete with the likes of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lexus or others. No one can convince me that the Mustang is built to go head to head with a 911 or an Aston Martin, just as the Taurus isn't made to compete with a BMW 745 or Mercedes S class.

You have to compare Ford with it's actual market competitors, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Chevrolet or Vauxhall in Europe, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, Chrysler, etc. When you look at Ford with accurate competitors, they make an excellent product.

[SoCalSteve]

The Ford Motor Company (NYSE: F) is an American multinational corporation based in Dearborn, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit. The automaker was founded by Henry Ford and incorporated on June 16, 1903. In addition to the Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury brands, Ford also owns Volvo Cars in Sweden, and a small stake in Mazda in Japan and Aston Martin in the UK. Ford's former UK subsidiaries Jaguar and Land Rover were sold to Tata Motors of India in March 2008. Ford has agreed to sell Volvo to Geely Automobile in a deal expected to be completed in the third quarter of 2010.[6]

Ford introduced methods for large-scale manufacturing of cars and large-scale management of an industrial workforce using elaborately engineered manufacturing sequences typified by moving assembly lines. Henry Ford's methods came to be known around the world as Fordism by 1914.

Ford is currently the second largest automaker in the U.S. and the fourth-largest in the world based on number of vehicles sold annually, directly behind Volkswagen.[7] In 2007, Ford fell from second to third in US annual vehicle sales for the first time in 56 years, behind only General Motors and Toyota. However, Ford occasionally outsells Toyota in shorter periods (most recently, during the summer months of 2009). By the end of 2009, Ford was the third largest automaker in Europe (behind Volkswagen and PSA).[8] Ford is the seventh-ranked overall American-based company in the 2008 Fortune 500 list, based on global revenues in 2008 of $146.3 billion.[9] In 2008, Ford produced 5.532 million automobiles[10] and employed about 213,000 employees at around 90 plants and facilities worldwide.[5] Starting in 2007, Ford received more initial quality survey awards from J. D. Power and Associates than any other automaker. Five of Ford's vehicles ranked at the top of their categories[11] and fourteen vehicles ranked in the top three.[12]

[dave thompson]

Downmarket may be a relative term but its global brand image is not terribly strong globally. Many perceive it a mid-market brand when compared to Audi, BMW, Aston Martin, Porsche, et al. especially in Asia (China, India) which has by a long way the largest autos growth globally.

Perceived by many (including GM, etc)as being slow to adopt next gen green tech. Overly reliant on SUV sales sucess until price of oil went vertical.
Your statement about Ford's brand image is incorrect/correct. Ford's global image is very strong; it's been making and marketing cars for over 100 years and manufacturing cars worldwide for over 70 years. You're correct when you say that it is perceived as a mid-market brand, which it is. It also makes cars that nibble on the fringes of upmarket brands but Ford primarily has been know for building cars for the everyman.

I've lived in the UK and Europe and clearly understand why smaller and more efficient cars are necessary and desired there. I would politely suggest that you come to the U.S. and drive through our country to understand why we have cars like we do. Until you have taken 3 days to drive just across Texas, or have spent several days driving through territory that has little habitation and a whole lot of scenery or take a week to drive on Interstate 90 from Boston to Seattle (about 3997 kilometers) with the possibility of doing it non-stop if you desired, then you might see the way we view automobiles in general and SUVs in particular.

[johnnymossville]

I believe Ford was ranked number one in sales in Europe last month. They usually are second or third behind VW.

Of course, sales aren't the only determining factor to Quality, but plunking down hard earned cash on such a large purchase is no small decision. People seem to be moving money in Ford's direction as of late. I suspect mostly for good reasons.

[rugbysecondrow]

I dont have strong opinions just asking question/soliciting opinions.

I agree with you that it matters little these days who owns a company or where a company is headquartered). We are in a globalized economy and there are literally thousands of components that go into the manufacture of a car all owned, manufactured, assembled by workers all over the world.

What information do I have that is wrong (other than my misstatment about Ford accepting gov't bailout money)?


I stand corrected, you stated no facts just opinions and statements hidden in questions. By your questions/statements though, it is easy to discern that you are not seeking enlightment, though if you read you might actually find it.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I suspect there was a check involved, signed by FORD.

. . . and we have a winner! Serotta certainly has a lot more to gain from this deal than Ford.

BBD

[johnnymossville]

...if you desired, then you might see the way we view automobiles in general and SUVs in particular.

LOL so true!

My wife is from one of the tiniest countries on earth, she bought a Civic, and she didn't understand SUV's at all until she rented one for a week while in College. I think she fell in love with the damn thing.

[Blue Jays]

"...Downmarket may be a relative term but its global brand image is not terribly strong globally. Many perceive it a mid-market brand when compared to Audi, BMW, Aston Martin, Porsche, et al..."Sure, if one is comparing a Porsche 911 Turbo to a Ford F150 pick-up truck for speed around a racetrack. Try comparing those two vehicles for hauling garden mulch or camping equipment. On the other hand, compare a run-of-the-mill BMW to a Ford GT for outright performance and it's now also a different story. It all depends on the intended use.

[goonster]

I don't really understand the point of the original post, but will say this:

Serotta is not a manufacturer of utility bicycles, nor do they promote car-free living or non-motorized transportation. Therefore, there is no hypocrisy involved in their partnership with a car company.

[SerottaUK1]

Your statement about Ford's brand image is incorrect/correct. Ford's global image is very strong; it's been making and marketing cars for over 100 years and manufacturing cars worldwide for over 70 years. You're correct when you say that it is perceived as a mid-market brand, which it is. It also makes cars that nibble on the fringes of upmarket brands but Ford primarily has been know for building cars for the everyman.

I've lived in the UK and Europe and clearly understand why smaller and more efficient cars are necessary and desired there. I would politely suggest that you come to the U.S. and drive through our country to understand why we have cars like we do. Until you have taken 3 days to drive just across Texas, or have spent several days driving through territory that has little habitation and a whole lot of scenery or take a week to drive on Interstate 90 from Boston to Seattle (about 3997 kilometers) with the possibility of doing it non-stop if you desired, then you might see the way we view automobiles in general and SUVs in particular.


One of the reasons the U.S. is so overly reliant on the automobile is that it has neglected public transportation (trains, subways, light rail, bike paths, pedestrian friendly areas, etc.) Anyone who lives in a many major U.S. metropolitan areas do not need a car. 80% of all car journeys are under

Why does one need an SUV that gets 12 miles to the gallon to drive across the country? Wouldnt you get there just as easily in a more fuel efficient vehicle? Most car travel is commuting anyway not jumping in a car and driving 200 miles.

In the United States the average journey is 29 miles round trip so there is a lot of scope to be less reliant on combustion engine for transportation. In the UK 80% of all car journeys are under 7 miles. No sensible person could argue that the car is a not a major cause of pollution and minimizing thiswould be beneficial.

I have in fact driven an automobile all over the U.S. Please understand I am not being critical of the US auto industry.

[SerottaUK1]

I stand corrected, you stated no facts just opinions and statements hidden in questions. By your questions/statements though, it is easy to discern that you are not seeking enlightment, though if you read you might actually find it.

Why so defensive? What exactly is your concern with my post? Please enlighten me.

[gdw]

Oh boy, an FNG trolling the forum...how original. :cool:

[SerottaUK1]

I don't really understand the point of the original post, but will say this:

Serotta is not a manufacturer of utility bicycles, nor do they promote car-free living or non-motorized transportation. Therefore, there is no hypocrisy involved in their partnership with a car company.

If you don't understand the point of the original post then I would be happy to clarify. What is it that confuses you?

[rugbysecondrow]

Why so defensive? What exactly is your concern with my post? Please enlighten me.

A) I already stated my concern, others have stated theirs...read
B) You are not interested in a discussion, just a monologue followed by questions followed by another monologue followed by more questions.
C)You are just playing games

[gemship]

I think it's great that Ford wrote a check to Serotta for some sponsorship. More money for Serotta. I don't think it will make much of a if any boost in sales for Serotta. At least not to value conscious Ford owners. There are too many perfectly good bikes made in China for cheaper money that get the job done quite nicely. Having said that If I had a million dollars I may consider the most expensive Meivici because it just looks so cool tubing wise.

[dave thompson]

One of the reasons the U.S. is so overly reliant on the automobile is that it has neglected public transportation (trains, subways, light rail, bike paths, pedestrian friendly areas, etc.) Anyone who lives in a many major U.S. metropolitan areas do not need a car. 80% of all car journeys are under

Why does one need an SUV that gets 12 miles to the gallon to drive across the country? Wouldnt you get there just as easily in a more fuel efficient vehicle? Most car travel is commuting anyway not jumping in a car and driving 200 miles.

In the United States the average journey is 29 miles round trip so there is a lot of scope to be less reliant on combustion engine for transportation. In the UK 80% of all car journeys are under 7 miles. No sensible person could argue that the car is a not a major cause of pollution and minimizing thiswould be beneficial.

I have in fact driven an automobile all over the U.S. Please understand I am not being critical of the US auto industry.
What you may not understand is that the U.S. is not a homogeneous group of people with a highly centralized government and a mildly socialistic point of view, like most countries in Europe including the U.K. We are 50 different states, very individualistic, somewhat self-centered, somewhat a new country by world standards, still evolving as a civilization, very much like our ability to be who we are without much interference and run our own lives without a 'big brother' monitoring what we do or think.

World events may be causing us to bend slightly away from our 'free-roaming' mindset/lifestyle and to somewhat of a more central-centric way of thinking, but if as you say you've driven all over the U.S. then you will have realized all of the above.

But for you to come and tell us what we need is a bit of a stretch my friend. Based on my experiences in the UK (which I very much like) I could tell you what you need in your home country. We can so easily see the faults of others.

All that said, the Serotta/Ford partnership seems like a very good symbiotic relationship that will do both brands good.

It's warm today, I'm going for a ride.

[SerottaUK1]

Oh boy, an FNG trolling the forum...how original. :cool:

My post was written with sincerity and I do not appreciate being referred to a troll or FNG.

I must say I am suprised by many of the replies, particularly this one.

In light of the fact that this is a forum for a bicycle manufacturer many of the replies seem to be strongly in defense of the dominant car culture at the expense of alternatives.

I would have thought that anyone who considers themselves a "cyclist" would embrace the bicycle as a positive agent for change (making changes that help our environment , improving our urban areas, improving/expanding cycle paths, public transport, etc).

Oil is not a renewable resource and it pollutes massively.

[fourflys]

One of the reasons the U.S. is so overly reliant on the automobile is that it has neglected public transportation (trains, subways, light rail, bike paths, pedestrian friendly areas, etc.) Anyone who lives in a many major U.S. metropolitan areas do not need a car.

Without getting too deep into it...

The US is pretty sparsely populated in the middle of the country compared to the seaboards... We do have mass transit on both coasts (although it could be better), but as far as having a passenger rail system (other than AMTRAK) I don't think it's feasable... Since AMTRAK took over the passenger rail service here in the US, I don't think it's evey shown a profit... The only way it survives is because it's owned by the government...

As far as living in a major city and not needing a car... that's debatable...

Let's take me for example... I live about twenty miles from where I work, my wife works about 12 miles from home (the opposite direction). Now, I we could have lived closer to my work, however we choose out location based on the school choices for our daughters. I'm not sure how the UK is, but most schools/neighborhoods around military bases here in the US, you do NOT want your kids going too... I do ride to work when I can, but this last year has been impossible due to having to drop the older one at before school care no later than 0630 and I have to be at work at 0700...(takes about 1.5 hours to ride)

While I have a choice to live closer to work, my families well being is more important to me than being able to ride to work...

But, I agree I would love to see the US have more public transportation options and more bike friendly areas...

[fourflys]

What you may not understand is that the U.S. is not a homogeneous group of people with a highly centralized government and a mildly socialistic point of view, like most countries in Europe including the U.K. We are 50 different states, very individualistic, somewhat self-centered, somewhat a new country by world standards, still evolving as a civilization, very much like our ability to be who we are without much interference and run our own lives without a 'big brother' monitoring what we do or think.



yeah, what Dave said... :)

I'll go for a ride later when I'm off work...

[gdw]

"In light of the fact that this is a forum for a bicycle manufacturer many of the replies seem to be strongly in defense of the dominant car culture at the expense of alternatives.

I would have thought that anyone who considers themselves a "cyclist" would embrace the bicycle as a positive agent for change (making changes that help our environment , improving our urban areas, improving/expanding cycle paths, public transport, etc).

Oil is not a renewable resource and it pollutes massively."

I've spent a bit of time overseas and have little use for whinging poms. Ford, US driving habits, evil oil.....give it a rest.

[SerottaUK1]

What you may not understand is that the U.S. is not a homogeneous group of people with a highly centralized government and a mildly socialistic point of view, like most countries in Europe including the U.K. We are 50 different states, very individualistic, somewhat self-centered, somewhat a new country by world standards, still evolving as a civilization, very much like our ability to be who we are without much interference and run our own lives without a 'big brother' monitoring what we do or think.

World events may be causing us to bend slightly away from our 'free-roaming' mindset/lifestyle and to somewhat of a more central-centric way of thinking, but if as you say you've driven all over the U.S. then you will have realized all of the above.

But for you to come and tell us what we need is a bit of a stretch my friend. Based on my experiences in the UK (which I very much like) I could tell you what you need in your home country. We can so easily see the faults of others.

All that said, the Serotta/Ford partnership seems like a very good symbiotic relationship that will do both brands good.

It's warm today, I'm going for a ride.


Ahhh I see. So your problem is that you perceived my post to be critical of the U.S. and you have a problem with someone saying something potentially negative about America Is this correct?

Europe, while generally more progressive in many ways when compared to the U.S. is not homogenous and many countries are not governed by "socialists".

There are many problems with the UK and many of those problems are very similar to those in the US for reasons already mentioned. All countries have areas they can improve on. I am an not bashing the U.S. We are all in this together.

I am curious though. Why would you have a problem with a "foreigner" making commentary on the U.S.?

I live in the UK but how do you know what nationality I am? How do you know what "home" country is mine?

[Blue Jays]

"...One of the reasons the U.S. is so overly reliant on the automobile is that it has neglected public transportation (trains, subways, light rail, bike paths, pedestrian friendly areas, etc.)
Anyone who lives in a many major U.S. metropolitan areas do not need a car.

Why does one need an SUV that gets 12 miles to the gallon to drive across the country?
Wouldnt you get there just as easily in a more fuel efficient vehicle?
I have in fact driven an automobile all over the U.S. Please understand I am not being critical of the US auto industry..."I repeat myself:

"...How much do you think bicycle framesets, bicycle parts, and everything related to bicycling WOULD COST if delivered to the marketplace....by bicycle?..."Substantial cars, SUVs, and even larger vehicles are required for the physical layout of this country. That's reality.
Besides, contemporary SUVs are getting far more than 12 mpg, that's being disingenuous. Even a huge Ford Expedition gets 14 mpg city and 20 mpg highway.

[fourflys]

I am curious though. Why would you have a problem with a "foreigner" making commentary on the U.S.?

I live in the UK but how do you know what nationality I am? How do you know what "home" country is mine?

It doesn't matter what nationality you are... when you come on a US bike forum and, by some's standards, look like you're trying to bash a US compamy or the US itself, people get defensive. It's human nature...

I would expect someone from the UK to get defensive if they felt I was bashing the US... BTW- It really stings when expatriot talks bad about thier country...

[false_Aest]

What the HELL?!?

I see Chris Carmichael on top of a Serotta in a Nissan ad.

I was gonna buy a Nissan because of the Serotta connection.

Now I gotta buy a FORD?!?!?!

I'm so confused.

Maybe if I write to Bicycling Magazine they can set me straight.

[dave thompson]

Ahhh I see. So your problem is that you perceived my post to be critical of the U.S. and you have a problem with someone saying something potentially negative about America Is this correct?

Europe, while generally more progressive in many ways when compared to the U.S. is not homogenous and many countries are not governed by "socialists".

There are many problems with the UK and many of those problems are very similar to those in the US for reasons already mentioned. All countries have areas they can improve on. I am an not bashing the U.S. We are all in this together.

I am curious though. Why would you have a problem with a "foreigner" making commentary on the U.S.?

I live in the UK but how do you know what nationality I am? How do you know what "home" country is mine?
Sorry that I may have guessed your nationality/home country incorrectly based on your location and screen name.

Yeah I'm mildly defensive about someone coming into my house and suggesting that I rearrange my furniture.

Europe is more progressive in some ways and more regressive in other ways but that's what makes the world go 'round. What's the planet's population now, 6.8 billion? And with that you get 6.8 billion different sets of needs/wants/desires and ideas.

Again, we're not a cohesive population here with a common set of needs and wants. We have people living in very small apartments and we have people living hundreds of miles from their nearest neighbor and everything in between. It may be easy for you to say what might be good for us and what you say may be true. But we've not been on the same island for a thousand years and with experience gaining an 'national identity' that seeks things, such as mass transit, for the common good.

[SerottaUK1]

Without getting too deep into it...

The US is pretty sparsely populated in the middle of the country compared to the seaboards... We do have mass transit on both coasts (although it could be better), but as far as having a passenger rail system (other than AMTRAK) I don't think it's feasable... Since AMTRAK took over the passenger rail service here in the US, I don't think it's evey shown a profit... The only way it survives is because it's owned by the government...

As far as living in a major city and not needing a car... that's debatable...

Let's take me for example... I live about twenty miles from where I work, my wife works about 12 miles from home (the opposite direction). Now, I we could have lived closer to my work, however we choose out location based on the school choices for our daughters. I'm not sure how the UK is, but most schools/neighborhoods around military bases here in the US, you do NOT want your kids going too... I do ride to work when I can, but this last year has been impossible due to having to drop the older one at before school care no later than 0630 and I have to be at work at 0700...(takes about 1.5 hours to ride)

While I have a choice to live closer to work, my families well being is more important to me than being able to ride to work...

But, I agree I would love to see the US have more public transportation options and more bike friendly areas...

I agree with you, Fourflys. There's no easy solution to a lot of this and if one lives far from work, taking kids to school, perhaps at different schools in rural areas then it's just not tenable.

But there are many people who do live in metropolitan areas who would happily commute to work by car if bike paths were available and safe. It's just often not available.. Cycling in the UK, by the way, is generally terrible and very unsafe. Not a week goes by where a cyclist in London is not killed. Seven cyclists were killed in London alone since March.

I cycle to work into central London every day with a round trip of 25 miles and it is often extremely dangerous. You almost never see any young school children on bikes in the UK, certainly not in London.

I do believe though that there is a great need for more cycliing infrastructure both urban and rural. Western economies have plenty of money for this, just not a whole lot of willpower. I'm sure you feel the same on this.

I personally want to see a world that gives a lot less deference to the automobile and more concern to pedestrians and cyclists.

[fiamme red]

I don't really understand the point of the original post, but will say this:

Serotta is not a manufacturer of utility bicycles, nor do they promote car-free living or non-motorized transportation. Therefore, there is no hypocrisy involved in their partnership with a car company.Exactly.

The organizers of the Tour de France aren't hypocrites either for polluting the air with huge publicity caravans, and endless support, team, and press cars. It's not about the environment, it's about competition. Serotta too is marketing bicycles for competition (or recreation, or exercise, if you will), not as alternatives to driving. Note the name of the forum, "Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums."

Bicycling Magazine has been running full-page car ads since at least the early '90's. I'm sure that some UK bicycle magazines run them too.

[SerottaUK1]

It doesn't matter what nationality you are... when you come on a US bike forum and, by some's standards, look like you're trying to bash a US compamy or the US itself, people get defensive. It's human nature...

I would expect someone from the UK to get defensive if they felt I was bashing the US... BTW- It really stings when expatriot talks bad about thier country...

If I am critical of anything its car culture and the automobile, not a U.S. company.

I have been passionate about cycling all my life and I am a cycling advocate. That's all. I think pedestrians and cyclists should be afforded equal road rights to the automobile.

Why would you expect someone from the UK to get defensive if someone from another country said something that was less that glowing?

I'm not sure that I would agree that its human nature to have this sort of reaction, more like that's how you were taught and it seems a bit childish to me. If it is human nature though it is one of the more base emotions of man.

And why would it "sting" if an expatriate said something less than glowing about their country. Would that make them some sort of "traitor"?

[SerottaUK1]

Exactly.

The organizers of the Tour de France aren't hypocrites either for polluting the air with huge publicity caravans, and endless support, team, and press cars. It's not about the environment, it's about competition. Serotta too is marketing bicycles for competition (or recreation, or exercise, if you will), not as alternatives to driving. Note the name of the forum, "Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums."

Bicycling Magazine has been running full-page car ads since at least the early '90's. I'm sure that some UK bicycle magazines run them too.


And your point is what?

[fourflys]

And why would it "sting" if an expatriate said something less than glowing about their country. Would that make them some sort of "traitor"?

First to know about me, I'm a proud member of the United States Military and have been for almost 17 years...

So, yes if an expatriate is talking crap about the United States I take offense and think of them as a traitor.... simple as that...

I'm not naive in thinking that everything is rosey, but don't talk crap just because it's the "cool" thing to do...

Nothing towards you SerottaUK, but I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation before it turns ugly...

[johnnymossville]

Where I come from there is pretty much not one single small town or village over 100 people that didn't have a passenger train station. 100 YEARS AGO!

Is it bad that we no longer have that today? I don't know, but I imagine transportation 100 years from now will make the passenger train look like an ancient novelty in all but the most congested cities.

[nahtnoj]

One of the reasons the U.S. is so overly reliant on the automobile is that it has neglected public transportation (trains, subways, light rail, bike paths, pedestrian friendly areas, etc.)

One of the reasons you are annoying people here is sweeping, general statements like this one. Your declarative, authoritative tone is, well...abrasive.

And what you are saying isn't necessarily true.

"The UK is filled with pompous people who hide their insecurities about the decline of their empire behind derogatory comments about other societies."

See? Tweaks you out a little, right?

[dave thompson]

....nattering nabobs of negativity... :rolleyes:

[SerottaUK1]

One of the reasons you are annoying people here is sweeping, general statements like this one. Your declarative, authoritative tone is, well...abrasive.

And what you are saying isn't necessarily true.

"The UK is filled with pompous people who hide their insecurities about the decline of their empire behind derogatory comments about other societies."

See? Tweaks you out a little, right?

No it does not "tweak" me in the slightest. First of all there's a lot of truth to this statement of yours.

One of the other reasons this doesnt bother me is that I am not a nationalist. I don't care about countries or nationalities. I only care about people. Wherever they come from. I don't derive my self worth by whatever country I happened to be born in or the passport that I happen to carry.

The only kind of person who gets upset by a criticism of their country is someone who is insecure in themselves. Part of the problem with the world that we live in is that intelligent dialogue is difficult because of overt nationalism and personal insecurity.

I think the world would be a much better place if we all thought this way. We are all brothers and sisters no matter what country we happen to be living in.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Ahhh I see. So your problem is that you perceived my post to be critical of the U.S. and you have a problem with someone saying something potentially negative about America Is this correct?

. . . I do see a certain element of this at work. I have seen it at work before on the forum in relation to various subjects that push buttons of participants in a community that has certain majority demographics, whether political, religious, economic, or whatever other characteristic you care to name. It's just a fact of life--this forum is overwhelmingly American and if you bash Mom, hot dogs, and apple pie you're going to get a rise out of us.

Being the leader of the world--and actively pursuing that label--means that American culture has penetrated into almost every corner of the world. The average citizen of almost any other country on earth is going to know far more about our culture than we do about theirs.

I have no idea what a "whinging pom" or an "FNG" are, but I have a hunch they are not complimentary. Could we perhaps give the OP the benefit of the doubt and discuss the issue rather than call names--if that's what they are? Just because he says something that pushes a button doesn't mean he's a troll.

BBD

[csm]

I've found this to be some interesting reading. tho I am surprised that it hasn't been locked.
give it time I suppose.....

[C5 Snowboarder]

Again, just find it a bit odd to see big corporate, automotive company associated with bicycle company. This is a personal feel though, not necessarily judging Serotta. I am sure they made this decision because they thought it in the best interest of Serotta.

stranger things have happened.. like selling the Rolls Royce brand to a German company.. now that is odd when you think WWII was not that long ago.. :rolleyes:

[SerottaUK1]

. . . I do see a certain element of this at work. I have seen it at work before on the forum in relation to various subjects that push buttons of participants in a community that has certain majority demographics, whether political, religious, economic, or whatever other characteristic you care to name. It's just a fact of life--this forum is overwhelmingly American and if you bash Mom, hot dogs, and apple pie you're going to get a rise out of us.

Being the leader of the world--and actively pursuing that label--means that American culture has penetrated into almost every corner of the world. The average citizen of almost any other country on earth is going to know far more about our culture than we do about theirs.

I have no idea what a "whinging pom" or an "FNG" are, but I have a hunch they are not complimentary. Could we perhaps give the OP the benefit of the doubt and discuss the issue rather than call names--if that's what they are? Just because he says something that pushes a button doesn't mean he's a troll.

BBD

I applaud your coming to my defense here of what is clearly a minority opinion. It speaks to your character.

Please understand that I am not trying to "push buttons". I just feel strongly about the problems associated with excessive deference to "car culture" and questioned the choice Serotta made in aligning with an automobile company.

Honestly, my intention was to stimulate dialogue/debate. After all that is what a Forum is in part about.

I am not sure that I would agree or categorize the U.S. as being the "leader" of the world. For example, it leads in some ways (GDP, defence spending) and follows in other areas (public transport policy, environmental policy).

The influence, importance/dominance of the U.S. is waning as we enter a multi-polar world. The rise of China and India for example will lessen some of the influence as well as some of the burdeon.

This isnt necessarily a bad thing. A strong China and India will help in many ways, economic, for example. Hopefully, as China develops a middle class it will unseat the communist party and embrace democracy (its already well embraced capitalism).

Regarding "participants in a community that has certain majority demographics" apart from the majority of the posters being American I would have no idea what other demographics comprised the Serotta community.

I am not bashing America, or mom or apple pie. My pointing out the less savory elements of Ford and the automotive industry was not a condemnation of the U.S.

And even if, hypothetically, I were being critical of some element of the U.S. so what?

I would argue that people who are secure in themselves and their country and recognize the dangers of jingoism should be able to handle this criticism (constructive or otherwise) without resorting to bullying, thuggery, fascism.

[Blue Jays]

Is this even about Serotta and their alignment with Ford Motor Company recently?

[Blue Jays]

"...I am not sure that I would agree or categorize the U.S. as being the "leader" of the world.
For example, it leads in some ways (GDP, defence spending) and follows in other areas (public transport policy, environmental policy).

The influence, importance/dominance of the U.S. is waning as we enter a multi-polar world.
The rise of China and India for example will lessen some of the influence as well as some of the burdeon..."Americans build some of the absolute FINEST bikes in the world of aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, bamboo, and other materials.
By the way, the environment is far cleaner here than the locales you've mentioned.

[TMB]

First time ever on this forum that I've made the decision to just use the ignore button.

[SerottaUK1]

First to know about me, I'm a proud member of the United States Military and have been for almost 17 years...

So, yes if an expatriate is talking crap about the United States I take offense and think of them as a traitor.... simple as that...

I'm not naive in thinking that everything is rosey, but don't talk crap just because it's the "cool" thing to do...

Nothing towards you SerottaUK, but I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation before it turns ugly...


Fourflys, I have a respect for those who choose to serve their country and I commend you on filling this role and for as long as you have.

However, one of the critical elements of a civilized, democratic society that you are defending is dissent. This is an integral part of democracy and is one of the foundations of the U.S. constitution.

If a U.S. citizen cannot feel free to criticize their own country then please tell me the difference between this kind of society and Nazi germany? If anyone is a traitor to their country it is the person who would bully others who have an opinion on matters opposite yours, willfully stifle debate, call them a "traitor".

You chose a military career and in my opinion there is an element of nobility in this choice.

But do not think for a moment that just because you happen to wear a uniform and have a government job that you are somehow more "patriotic" than your fellow American.

Thinking human beings ask questions they do not stifle debate.

One of my favorite quotes, originally by George Bernard Shaw but used by Ted Kennedy in his eulogy to his brother Robert

"Some men see things as they are and ask why? I dream dreams that never were and ask why not?"

For me, I dream of a world that is more pedestriam and cycle friendly and less car centric. The quality of life improvement to people, societies, and the environment would be absolutely massive and this is very achievable with more political will and awareness. This advocacy is what I have chosen for myself, my life, and charities I donate money to.

So, if things do not change then things cannot improve and one cannot begin to change things until there are questions and dialogue.

[SerottaUK1]

Americans build some of the absolute FINEST bikes in the world of aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, bamboo, and other materials.
By the way, the environment is far cleaner here than the locales you've mentioned.

I agree with you entirely on both points. Part of the reason the environment is cleaner these days is because much of the manufacturing is done in the Far East and then exported to western world.

[Blue Jays]

Weren't political threads officially banned on this forum?
This discussion sure ain't about cars, SUVs, trucks, and how they interact with bicycle companies.
I'm seeing stuff about Nazi Germany, dissent, patriotism, traitors, and similar.
:(

[Blue Jays]

"...Part of the reason the environment is cleaner these days is because much of the manufacturing is done in the Far East and then exported to western world..."L.O.L.!
Where should the bicycles be manufactured? How should they reach the marketplace?

[benb]

I had two Fords (Mustang GT, Focus). The mustang was incredibly fun.. but got too much attention and sucked in the winter. The focus had reliability issues but was still a great small car.

I swore off Ford pretty good after that Focus, I've had an Acura the past 5 years and it has never once had anything wrong with it.

Last summer I had a Mustang rental though.. and holy cow was that car nice compared to the one I had.. they have really made huge improvements.

Last week we were on vacation and drove all over creation in California.. I had my fingers crossed to get a Fusion, but we got stuck with a Dodge Avenger.. I really wanted to try out the Fusion to compare it to my wife's Accord.. and also to play with the Sync system again... I absolutely love Sync.

I will definitely take another look if and when I need a new car.. not going to get rid of my Acura until it dies.. it's just too damn reliable. But there are plenty of things in the new Fords that make me want to go back to driving American cars. (I'd be happy to wave the flag again with my choice of cars)

Even if Hondas, Toyotas, etc.. are made in the US (mine wasn't), it's still not the same as an American company building cars in the US.

[SerottaUK1]

Weren't political threads officially banned on this forum?
This discussion sure ain't about cars, SUVs, trucks, and how they interact with bicycle companies.
I'm seeing stuff about Nazi Germany, dissent, patriotism, traitors, and similar.
:(

I don't know much about political threads and how welcome they are on the foum. The initial postings intent was certainly more about generating dialogue re: corporate brand strategy, partnerships than to engage in a geo-political debate. Not that political debates can't be worthwhile provided emotions are kept in check and people maintain respect for alternate views.

I think like many posts they evolve or devolve; its just the nature of dialogue...there are no blacks and white only varying shades of gray. Things can be complex in my opinion. There are different viewpoints here but despite strong feelings I think most posts have been relatively civilized. For me, if commentary got unreasonably uncivilized I would choose to bail entirely.

I must say that I am actually somewhat suprised by a lot of the opinions to my post. Not so much the push back but that there aren't more likeminded people who recognize that the automobile is but one solution to transportation problems and willing to advocate for this view. I am a firm believer that the world need to be far less reliant on the automobile and current engine technology.

This isnt a U.S. issue its a global one. Do people realize how many individuals in China are projected to purchase automobiles in the next 5 years? In India? Haveanyone been to Shanghai recently? I have. It's a polluted, gridlocked nightmare.

Especially considering that this is a bicycle forum I would have expected more sympathy for pedestrian/bicycle rights but I certainly respect every single persons views despite my disagreements with many of them.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The evil moderator sees this this one seems to have run its course also. It has drifted way too far into politics to be productive any more.

Sigh.

BBD