BB30 in a custom Ti frame

[mtb_frk]

Hey all I am getting a new cross frame and am debating going with a bb30 or not. Anyone have any experience with a Ti frame and this type of bottom bracket/crankset?

[Satellite]

Hey all I am getting a new cross frame and am debating going with a bb30 or not. Anyone have any experience with a Ti frame and this type of bottom bracket/crankset?
Mtb_frk,

Jon C at Moots raves about the BB30 in the new VaMoots RSL. I trust his opinion on all things Ti. He says it really stiffens the bottom bracket. If you have the opportunity to get the BB30 get it.

Satellite

[mtb_frk]

I am wondering how well the bearings are sealed also. I dont race in too many muddy races a year, but there is usually one or two.

[David Kirk]

Have you asked the builder these questions?

Dave

[mtb_frk]

No not yet. I expect to be contacted in the next couple of days, so I will ask then. But I figured there are probably some people on here that have first hand experience with it.

[happycampyer]

I would definitely speak to the builder first, as Dave suggests. Moots did a fair amount of experimenting before settling on the press-fit BB30 standard for the RSL:

http://www.moots.com/index.php/blog/detail/rslthe_little_things_all_brought_together/

If the builder hasn't worked with the standard before to work out the kinks, I would be hesitant. As far a cx is concerned, Moots has a prototype RSL Psychlo-X (it was shown at NAHBS, and belongs to Jon C), so it's possible. I'm sure that Jon is hammering it now (apparently it's still snowing in Steamboat) and will race it this fall to make sure that the bearings hold up, etc.

[oldpotatoe]

Mtb_frk,

Jon C at Moots raves about the BB30 in the new VaMoots RSL. I trust his opinion on all things Ti. He says it really stiffens the bottom bracket. If you have the opportunity to get the BB30 get it.

Satellite

It should be mentioned that the Moots RSL BB is a pressfit BB30..a big shell with a FSA or Truvativ insert with the bearings in that. FSA one made of plastic, pressed into the shell kinda like a HS. Pretty complicated answer to a simple question, IMO. They tried a BB 30 bearing into the shell but couldn't keep the bearings square so the insert. Cannot use a Campagnolo crank on this setup until 2011 when Campagnolo has a BB30 crank. PLUS need inserts from Euduro for a shimano crank.

Way easier to mitre and weld big tubes(down and top) to a big tube(BB30 shell)..

[David Kirk]

No not yet. I expect to be contacted in the next couple of days, so I will ask then. But I figured there are probably some people on here that have first hand experience with it.

I fully understand that you are probably excited and want to talk about it sooner rather than later - I'm the same way. But, frankly, if you think that the folks on a forum can tell you more than your builder you might want a different builder.

The builder should know best.

dave

[nahtnoj]

I think BB30 is old news at this point - Press Fit 30 is what you should be asking about. This uses the same BB30 crank, just a better bearing system.

[oldpotatoe]

I think BB30 is old news at this point - Press Fit 30 is what you should be asking about. This uses the same BB30 crank, just a better bearing system.

Same bearings as BB30, just in a press fit insert..like a headset. What I wonder about is when these bearings go south, can you replace them or do you need to get a whole new insert. Plus can you upgrade the insert with better bearings(no, not ceramic but better SS cart bearings).

[j.p.rich]

To the originial question, the Ti 29'er I posted in the custom bikes page has BB30 with a Cannondale crankset/BB package. Much too early to tell on the bearings but thus far I'm quite pleased.

[mtb_frk]

Thanks for all the responses.

[palincss]

Jon C at Moots raves about the BB30 in the new VaMoots RSL. I trust his opinion on all things Ti. He says it really stiffens the bottom bracket.


Were bottom brackets in other designs notably lacking in stiffness?

[happycampyer]

Were bottom brackets in other designs notably lacking in stiffness?Not at all. I would say that the bottom bracket stiffness of my Moots road bikes are comparable to my Ottrott, which admittedly wasn't designed to be crazy stiff. I test rode an RSL last fall and it has a very different feel.

[Tyler Evans]

Press fit BB30 is no problem in Ti. We have built quite a few Ti bikes with it and it makes for a lighter frame as well as giving you the ability to use a much lighter crank/bb combo (the real weight savings). The 30mm spindle makes for a noticeably stiffer bb. Not that it needs to be stiffer but it is... and it's lighter too, it's just a win-win, should have thought of it earlier. Good stuff, no complaints yet. te.

[Jeff N.]

I would personally never consider getting a custom frame with pressed-fit BB. Jeff N.

[mtb_frk]

I would personally never consider getting a custom frame with pressed-fit BB. Jeff N.

Why not?

[Jeff N.]

Why not?
It just seems to me to be another one of those cures to a problem that doesn't exist. I doubt even Lance could REALLY tell the difference in stiffness, if given the "Pepsi Challenge". A bottom bracket, IMO, is one of those parts that should be threaded in so it'll be absolutely secure/ease of removal/replacement/cleaning, etc. Sure, you can get those inserts/adapters for use of "normal" BB units, but that seems kinda Mickey Mouse. I'm instantly reminded of those nice Klein frames from back in the 90's. How many folks are stuck with those frames, unable to upgrade to more modern BB's/Cranksets because of that silly pressed-in BB unit?
It's just me, I suppose, but I just think pressed-in BB's of any kind are a bad idea. Jeff N.

[nahtnoj]

It just seems to me to be another one of those cures to a problem that doesn't exist. I doubt even Lance could REALLY tell the difference in stiffness, if given the "Pepsi Challenge". A bottom bracket, IMO, is one of those parts that should be threaded in so it'll be absolutely secure/ease of removal/replacement/cleaning, etc. Sure, you can get those inserts/adapters for use of "normal" BB units, but that seems kinda Mickey Mouse. I'm instantly reminded of those nice Klein frames from back in the 90's. How many folks are stuck with those frames, unable to upgrade to more modern BB's/Cranksets because of that silly pressed-in BB unit?
It's just me, I suppose, but I just think pressed-in BB's of any kind are a bad idea. Jeff N.

I'm not looking to get into an argument, but I doubt the threaded BB will exist in any meaningful way on high-end bikes in 3-5 years.

[Jeff N.]

I'm not looking to get into an argument, but I doubt the threaded BB will exist in any meaningful way on high-end bikes in 3-5 years.
That's a BOOOOOOOLD Statement! Jeff N.

[oldpotatoe]

It just seems to me to be another one of those cures to a problem that doesn't exist. I doubt even Lance could REALLY tell the difference in stiffness, if given the "Pepsi Challenge". A bottom bracket, IMO, is one of those parts that should be threaded in so it'll be absolutely secure/ease of removal/replacement/cleaning, etc. Sure, you can get those inserts/adapters for use of "normal" BB units, but that seems kinda Mickey Mouse. I'm instantly reminded of those nice Klein frames from back in the 90's. How many folks are stuck with those frames, unable to upgrade to more modern BB's/Cranksets because of that silly pressed-in BB unit?
It's just me, I suppose, but I just think pressed-in BB's of any kind are a bad idea. Jeff N.

But, but, but...it's 'lighter, stiffer, better', isn't it? That's what the likes of FSA and sram say. Gotta be true.

As for it being the 'wave of the future, like tubeless and electronic shifting it's a big 'we'll see'. BB30 in 'high end bikes' are the stuff of the marketing department, not the design department.

[oldpotatoe]

Press fit BB30 is no problem in Ti. We have built quite a few Ti bikes with it and it makes for a lighter frame as well as giving you the ability to use a much lighter crank/bb combo (the real weight savings). The 30mm spindle makes for a noticeably stiffer bb. Not that it needs to be stiffer but it is... and it's lighter too, it's just a win-win, should have thought of it earlier. Good stuff, no complaints yet. te.

'Much' lighter and 'noticebly' stiffer.... Noisy, creaky, sluggish, lots that need aftermarket shims to take looseness out. A Few 'problems' in the 'trenches'. No doubt easier to miter and weld big tubes to a big BB shell.

[Tyler Evans]

We are not doing it for marketing reasons. Testing has shown that the system is lighter and stiffer. As far as: "Noisy, creaky, sluggish, lots that need aftermarket shims to take looseness out" I have not seen these problems on our bikes (can't speak for other brands). People might not be able to perceive the difference in stiffness, but testing equipment can. It is small incremental steps like these that have evolved the bicycle over time. Little things here and there all add up (weight savings, stiffness, etc..). Bikes in the future will most likely look similar to the ones made today but they will evolve. Regular BB's are super, in-the-shell bearings and square taper spindles work great (I still have them on a few of my bikes), outboard bearings and larger diameter hollow spindles are even better... Some things change and some remain the same. Don't lament or be resistant... stay posi! Bikes are rad and will continue to get radder.

[oldpotatoe]

We are not doing it for marketing reasons. Testing has shown that the system is lighter and stiffer. As far as: "Noisy, creaky, sluggish, lots that need aftermarket shims to take looseness out" I have not seen these problems on our bikes (can't speak for other brands). People might not be able to perceive the difference in stiffness, but testing equipment can. It is small incremental steps like these that have evolved the bicycle over time. Little things here and there all add up (weight savings, stiffness, etc..). Bikes in the future will most likely look similar to the ones made today but they will evolve. Regular BB's are super, in-the-shell bearings and square taper spindles work great (I still have them on a few of my bikes), outboard bearings and larger diameter hollow spindles are even better... Some things change and some remain the same. Don't lament or be resistant... stay posi! Bikes are rad and will continue to get radder.

Bikes that come in boxes, with the crank installed, often have early-on BB30 'problems'. Shims come with the crank, not with a complete bicycle so I had to source both bearings(Wheels manufacturing) and shims from an industrial parts house to get one bike to not creak with a really loose or sluggish([pick one) crank..sram crank. Samo for a Cannondale, seen it more than once.

I suspect you are doing it somewhat for marketing(apologize if I am presuming to much) as well as 'lighter, stiffer' as the market pretty much demands a BB30, oversized BB shell in high end frames. Particularly because, as you mentioned, riders can't tell a difference so ya gotta tell them it's stiffer.

Like Campagnolo couldn't sell square taper cranks in spite of them being really good, not soft, not heavy, so UT was born. Plus(sorry again for assuming too much here) I'm guessing BB30 alone, not pressfit, was a problem for your welded bikes, because of distortion, like some other ti builders.

I lament so many things that are done to be different, not better, in this wacky bike biz. If it's indeed better, makes riding better, bravo! If it's something that is just a gadget, well that drives some away from bicycles.

Just my opinion. The RSL, what I originally mentioned, is very whizbang but in spite of it being a pound lighter than the CR, I doubt us mere mortals could really tell a 'significant' difference in ride or BB stiffness from the 'conventional' BB to the pressfit BB30.

[Jeff N.]

'Much' lighter and 'noticebly' stiffer.... Noisy, creaky, sluggish, lots that need aftermarket shims to take looseness out. A Few 'problems' in the 'trenches'. No doubt easier to miter and weld big tubes to a big BB shell.Right. Ease of production. No need for tapping threads. One less worker on the assembly line, so to speak. THAT'S why they want you to buy into the hype, IMO. Jeff N.

[nahtnoj]

That's a BOOOOOOOLD Statement! Jeff N.

Custom will always be custom.

But take a look around at what the big guys are doing...threads are disappearing rapidly on anything over 2K.

And...a lot of little guys are starting to offer BB/PF30 as an option - Crumpton, Strong, IF, Parlee, Gaulzetti, Engin, etc, etc.

With PF30, there is a lot less for the customer to screw up vs. a threaded or BB30 frame.

[Tyler Evans]

Right. Ease of production. No need for tapping threads. One less worker on the assembly line, so to speak. THAT'S why they want you to buy into the hype. Jeff N.

That is not why (at least not that's not why for me). Seeing as I weld, tap and face regular threaded bb's, and now have to ream and face BB30s there really isn't any time savings from a production standpoint.

Oldpotatoe- you are correct in your presumption about using the press fit on our metal bikes. We only use the straight-up BB30 on our carbon bikes, the metal ones get the press fit. We never made a regular BB30 on a metal bike because of the distortion and stupid-crazy tolerances. You are also right that mortals probably can't tell the difference.

As it stands now there is room for both BB types. If the BB30 is just hype then it too shall pass, only time will tell.

BTW, my bb30 bike rules! (it would probably still rule with a regular bb though:))

[rphetteplace]

on extremely good authority......bb30 in titanium (non-press fit) will howl like a monkey that you took the bananas away from and should be avoided at all cost.

[mtb_frk]

Personal experience?

Thanks everyone for the good conversation.

[Jeff N.]

Personal experience?

Thanks everyone for the good conversation.OK. Then it's conclusive...no BB-30 on your Ti frame. :p Jeff N.

[mtb_frk]

I am still on the fence I guess but I have learned quite bit. There is a bike demo this weekend that I plan on going to and hopefully there will be some bikes that have a bb30 that I can try out.

[rustychain]

IMO BB30 has no advantage in any but a carbon frame and then it's not much. The flex you feel in a BB is the frame and not the bottom bracket itself. In carbon BB30 allows for a stiffer frame due to oversized tubes. Press fit is fine if your going to replace your frame often but if you plan on keeping it for along time I would be concerned with slop developing as the BB is removed for service. Carbon technology does not always transfer to ti/ steel/ aluminium. My advise is to tell your builder what kind of ride you want and let him design it :beer:

[Marcusaurelius]

I don't see anything wrong or heavy about the standard crank with outboard bearings for this reason I would not go near BB-30, in much the same way I avoid integrated headsets.

[Louis]

I don't see anything wrong or heavy about the standard crank with outboard bearings

I consider "standard crank" to be inboard bearings...

[Seott-e]

Is the BB30 really catching on fire, as they say ?

I would NOT want a press fit BB in my bikes, I haven't seen anything in the BB30 to get excited about .......