Assumptions and cold set surprises

[Lifelover]

Assumptions: I ASS-U-MEd that a 1999 Atlanta would have been made for 8 speed gear and thus have 130 mm spacing. WRONG! Maybe the advertised manufacture date was wrong but either way I should have asked. :crap:

Surprises:
You have to spread a LOT for it to take a set. I suspect every frame is a little different but I have spread my frame 30 mm trying to achieve a 4 mm set and it springs right back to 125. :crap:

Thought some people might like to see how I'm trying to do it.



I didn't have any all thread around but I did have a turn buckle that was a good size.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4021/4568498890_716908e368_o.jpg


The ruler is a little hard to read but it is spread to 155 mm.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/4567862915_1419aa866a_o.jpg




After removing the do jiggy, it is right back to 125 mm.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4567863201_5fc20fa580_o.jpg

Since I don't have any left hand threaded nuts, my turn buckle won't allow me to get much more spread. I'll have to get some all thread and try it again. I plan to increase my "spread" in 5-10 mm increments. I suspect that once it goes beyond it's elastic limit the 5 mm increase will come all at once.

[dave thompson]

Weren't most Serottas made after about 93~94 spaced 130 at the rear? My 98 and 99 Atlantas were as were a couple of mid-90s CSi that I've had. I wonder if one of the previous owners of your Atlanta installed a 126 spaced wheel and yarded on the skewers to make it work? Effective cold-setting in another fashion.

[djg]

I think my CSi is a '96 -- I know it's 130 in the back. Seems unlikely that the '99 Atlanta wasn't built for 130 spacing.

What's keeping the rear dropout faces parallel in that setup? Doesn't look quite straight, but maybe that's the photo (or I'm just off).

[thwart]

I've tried to cold set a Bridgestone RB-1 using the same method you're using, and was similarly frustrated.

I think Sheldon Brown's method is preferable...
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

Then again, I've found (at least in most frames) that 'stretching' the 126 mm dropouts to get a 130 mm axle in is not that big a deal.

[David Kirk]

That bike most definitely started life at 130 mm. That means that one side has been bent in by 5 mm.

Spreading it back to 130 the way you are will work in that you'll end up at 130 but I seriously doubt the rear end will be in line with the front - it will be off to one side. A bit of cleaver use of a string will give you good idea of which dropout needs to be moved out. If you need a tutorial let me know.

Dave

P.S. do you have a good solid bench mounted vise to use?

[Lifelover]

That bike most definitely started life at 130 mm. That means that one side has been bent in by 5 mm.

Yuck. For some reason I don't think I wanted to hear that. For what it is worth, the serial # is AS 58 1461


If you need a tutorial let me know.


That would be wonderful. I have glanced at Sheldon Brown's string method but have not try it. I'm in no rush so do it at your leisure. Maybe it's a good thing I didn't spread it back just yet. If it is one side that needs to be realigned, I maybe better off using Sheldon's 2 X 4 method.

Since this is my first Serotta I decided to also make this my first complete build (minus headset install). At first I was very annoyed and disappointed by the spacing issue, but I have decided that it will just be part of the process. I think it will make me appreciate the bike that much more.




P.S. do you have a good solid bench mounted vise to use?

I have a decent one but I have limited space around it. However, my father in-law owns a small company that makes springs and has vices and toys of all sizes. Need be I can do this at his shop.

[David Kirk]

OK - as a disclaimer this is not the professional way to do this but I consider it to be a field repair if you will. However with some basic skill and patience you can do a very good job.

Wrap a piece of string around the head tube and to the inside of the dropouts.

Now measure from the string to the seat tube as pictured. You will most likely find that one side is a few millimeters closer than the other. This is the side that needs to be moved out.

Remove the bottom bracket from the frame and put the BB into the vice. Snug it down well but do not crank on it and ruin the frame. Just make it so the frame doesn't move.

Now push with your hands on the dropout that needs to be moved out. You will need to move it a good bit to have it deform and take a set. recheck with your string until the rear spacing is 130-131 and that the gaps from the string to the seat tube are the same.

It would be best if you could also check the dropout alignment with H tools to be sure the faces are parallel. There is a good chance that they no longer are.

I hope this helps.

Dave

[Lifelover]

To steal a line from E-Richie:

Dave Kirk is a Genius.

I will recheck it using the inside of the dropout but I reread Sheldon's process and did it using the outside. Here are the results

Non Drive Side: 1 7/16" to the outside of the string.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3326/4568259999_5be1d5cccf_o.jpg

Drive Side: Less than 1 7/16" to the outside of the string. More like 1 3/16"
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/4568897352_fbdd4ffda0_o.jpg

So the drive side has been bent in 5mm just like you said. I will attempt the fix and report back.

On the bright side, my original assumption that the bike was spaced for 130mm was correct :banana:

[David Kirk]

You got. There is your issue.

Have fun bending.

dave

P.S. the inside faces are the place to be so that you are referencing the business part of the dropout. It's irrelevant where the outside faces are.

[Ken Robb]

I wonder if the frame was shipped without a spacer between the rear dropouts.
This could well be shipping damage.

[Lifelover]

I wonder if the frame was shipped without a spacer between the rear dropouts.
This could well be shipping damage.

The spacer were there for shipping. Whatever happened to it happened before it was shipped.

[Lifelover]

After flagging the drive side to ensure I didn't bend the wrong one, I took Dave's advice and slapped that baby in a vise. I used a length of lumber as my lever. My garage is a mess.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4568402123_303bf3345b_o.jpg

After some good pushing, I'm back to 130mm :banana: I got sick of trying to read the ruler so I taped 130mm.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3385/4569038390_b52467b6b0_o.jpg

However, when measuring the string, I still seem to be off by about 2 mm. Given the inaccuracy of my techniques, I think I'm just going to run it up to my LBS and let them align the dropouts and call it a day.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4569037950_122f0f92f3_o.jpg


Thank you Dave for the great advise and thank you Ben Serotta for giving my a forum to ask for his advice.

[dave thompson]

Those are definitely not official Serotta garage pics!

[thwart]

The Serotta Forum at its best.

Well... maybe not the garage pics... :cool:

[David Kirk]

I'd guess that the entire rear end got pushed to one side a bit and that's why you can be at 130 and have the different readings at the seat tube.

It's not perfect but I bet it will ride just fine.

Get those drops checked and have them check the hanger while they are at it.

dave

[Lifelover]

It's not perfect but I bet it will ride just fine.



I'm quite sure it will be fine for me and I gong to quit while I'm ahead. However, if I was trying to get it "perfect" I guess I would just pull the drive side in another 1mm and push the non drive side out 1mm?

Thanks again. Without you input I likely would have made a bad situation worse.

[David Kirk]

I'm quite sure it will be fine for me and I gong to quit while I'm ahead. However, if I was trying to get it "perfect" I guess I would just pull the drive side in another 1mm and push the non drive side out 1mm?

Thanks again. Without you input I likely would have made a bad situation worse.

Yep. You got the idea right.

FWIW - there are few industry standards in this biz but alignment is one of them and to be honest it's a bit shocking. Now I'm not talking dept. store bikes here but bike shop bikes and some of them very high end. The standard for having the rear wheel in the same vertical plane as the front is +/- .120" (3 mm). So many big companies feel proud if they have met the standard. You bike, that was knocked out of line is a simple and easy to measure way (and in a way that would have affected tracking in a big way) would have met the standards of many companies that get love here and elsewhere.

By contrast, a company like Serotta, uses +/- .020" as acceptable and some smaller places that can afford the time shoot for +/- .010".

Will a bike with alignment to a +/- .010" tolerance be faster than one with a +/- .120"? Hard to say. Is it nice to know that it is that tight? Hell yeah. That's one of the things you pay for and at a time when mass produced bikes from the big 3 cost as much or more as a handbuilt bike the choice would seem to be clear. Yet Cervelo and the like sells lots of stuff. They do have some sweet ads - I'll give them that.

Dave

[R2D2]

Yep. You got the idea right.

FWIW - there are few industry standards in this biz but alignment is one of them and to be honest it's a bit shocking. Now I'm not talking dept. store bikes here but bike shop bikes and some of them very high end. The standard for having the rear wheel in the same vertical plane as the front is +/- .120" (3 mm). So many big companies feel proud if they have met the standard. You bike, that was knocked out of line is a simple and easy to measure way (and in a way that would have affected tracking in a big way) would have met the standards of many companies that get love here and elsewhere.

By contrast, a company like Serotta, uses +/- .020" as acceptable and some smaller places that can afford the time shoot for +/- .010".

Will a bike with alignment to a +/- .010" tolerance be faster than one with a +/- .120"? Hard to say. Is it nice to know that it is that tight? Hell yeah. That's one of the things you pay for and at a time when mass produced bikes from the big 3 cost as much or more as a handbuilt bike the choice would seem to be clear. Yet Cervelo and the like sells lots of stuff. They do have some sweet ads - I'll give them that.

Dave

One of the great advantages of steel is you can cold set it.
The adjustable dropout seemed to have disappeaed but they could make up for some minor alignment issues on the fly.
With carbon if the mold is off or the bike deforms while cooling you are stuck.
Luckily my BMC seems to be dialed in.
Personally the only time I have trouble with an out of alignment frame is when it is in front of me and I have to look at it all day.

[jvp]

Last year I noticed my '76 fuji track bike wasn't tracking right. I checked the frame with a string (on the outside of the dropouts, darn it). One side was ~5mm off. Checked the rear spacing, it was ~115mm. So I cold set it via sheldon's method to both fix the alignment and set it to ~120mm. It's still ~1mm or so off but it tracks much better now. I did not re-align the track dropouts, not sure if it mattered as much on an old track bike/street rider. Also, whatever tubing they used for it wasn't as "springy" as newer serotta tubing is apparently. It wasn't that hard to get the set to take.