Evolution of a Legend

[dirtdigger88]

Or should I say a fit-

Over the last year I have visited this site far too much but I have gain a lot of knowledge. I have worked over the last year on refining my riding position- I had a lot of help from folk on this site- many of which spent tons of time exchanging emails with me as I took measurment- made adjustment- asked questions and did the whole process over again. david kirk, e-richie, jerk, dbrk, muscgrave' and ti design all aided me in my quest. I have pictures for most of the stop points along the way- I thought I would share what I did and what I learned.

The first pix is my Lemond- this is what I originally based my Legend off of. See the forward riding position? I got that because I came from a MTB background and went to a MTB specific shop and had a MTB buddy of mine set me up. I was told that Lemonds have long TTs and I needed a zero set back post to make up for that. As a MTB rider I tended to keep my hip more upright rather than tilted forward. I then bent at the back rather than at the hips- thus the cramped position.

The second pix is my Legend the day I got it- it is set exactly to Serotta specs at this time. Notice the forward postition. Now I am not casting blame or pointing fingers at Serotta or my fitter- I got exactly what I asked for. You also have to remember that my fitter knew I had been riding for years and I was confinent that this is what I wanted. I had over 12,000 miles on my Lemond by time I got my Legend- The distance from saddle tip to bars was about 54 or 54.5 cm (remember this is a 60cm bike)

The next pix is my Legend a few weeks later- (actually the same time I took the pix of the Lemond) I had installed a 120mm stem- but if you look I also moved my saddle forward a bit more- From there I moved my stem down a bit at a time until it was all the way on the headset- Interesting enough this now matched the saddle to bar drop on my Lemond. I rode most of the summer like that- Until I went to visit dbrk and met david kirk- Douglas was the one to point out that I was rounding my back and that I needed to rotated my hips instead. He then showed my some yogi tricks (I still work on imagining a string at my belly button pulling down towards my top tube to keep my back flat) I also had david kirk look at my position- guess what he told me- I was too far forward-

When I returned home I tried to move my saddle back more but I just could not do it with a 120 stem- so I swapped to a 110 and slide the saddle back. You can see this in the next picture. The steerer is cut and the saddle is all the way back. All this time I am still working on learning to naturally ride with a flat back not a rounded one. I finally had it down pretty well but now the 110 stem seemed too short.

Jason

[dirtdigger88]

I was afraid of a computer crash and losing all my work-

Ok- So now I have a 120 stem back on and I moved my saddle up just a touch- You will remember this pix from the plastic surgery thread. This is about the time e-richie got involved- He asked why I was worried about my HT when my positioin was so far forward- jeeze I thought I had been moving it back already :crap: But I listened- the master then traded countless emails with me until I agreed to try a set back post. I also traded some cyber ink with david kirk again at this time- he told me the same things. I even drug the jerk into this kicking and screaming (i also took you advice on the bars)

So I tried an old thomson laid back that I had but eventually installed a dura ace post instead. (muscgraves helped me understand what the builders were telling me in lay person speak) I also installed a arione saddle- I got my new thomson X2 in and my easton pro bend bars (thanks jerk) This is what I end up with- as I said in another thread- BALANCE- my saddle tip to bars is now just under 58cm. I feel very comfortable riding low with a flat back and my hips rolled forward. I did struggle with my cadence as I made the last moves- I totally lost my smooth cadence- but ti design helped me work through that and I can now say that I can do my one legged drills on my rollers thank- you :beer:

Lastly I included a pix of my Lemond as well- you cant change one with out the other- I feel so much stronger now than ever before. I am pedaling with my hips and upper thighs not my hamstrings- I can ride much bigger gears than I ever could before.

I hope you enjoyed my saga

Jason

[dirtdigger88]

I almost forgot- by adding the X2 stem (which has a 4mm lower stack height than the original) I was able to add a 5mm spacer under the stem for a much more balanced look at the head tube. Also look at the pix of the front of the stem- can you say minimalist?

jason

[dirtdigger88]

I look back at where I started and where I ended and then think about what e-richie said about the business part of the saddle being in line with the seat tube- :)

jason

[dave thompson]

Jason: Thanks for your post, it's very interesting to see your evolution, and your pictures speak volumes.

Secondarily, in my opinion this post is a very fine example of the workings of this forum; interested people helping those who ask for it. No B.S., no hype, just good people with a common interest. And perhaps the reason we don't like some who try to muddy our waters or ruffle our feathers. This place is far too good to let people take a crap in it.

[David Kirk]

My Hat is off to you for being open minded and persistant. It will pay off in the end.

Come out to Bozeman and we'll spin some big gears.

Dave

[weisan]

Excellent documentation, dirt-pal.

Believe it or not, personally I went through a very similar "evolution" over the span of last two years or so, except that I did not have the privilege you did of having so many **masters** directly involved in dispensing you with good advice. Although I am sure the stuff those guys mentioned here in the forum has an indirect influence on my thinking as well. My discovery process is more like DocDoofus: move things around, trial&error, the maturing of my cycling abilities and body adaptations etc. I will try and take some pictures in the next few days or so for us to do a comparison. You would be pleasantly surprised how close our pictures match in terms of the saddle and stem changing positions.

Enjoy your new riding position but don't stop there, always remember it's a dynamic process but also very personal (ie. varies from person to person). :banana:

weisan

PS. An hour ago, we just had a freakish T'Storm + golf-ball sized hail passed through our area. The whole thing didn't last more than 20 minutes but you won't believe the amount of stuff that got dumped onto the ground in that short time period.

[Johny]

Jason,

This is an excellent post. Now your Legend looks even faster.

Now let's work on your pedals... There got to be better ones than the Speedplay's (they are so MTB, right? :D )... May I suggest that it is "Time" to change... :)
John

[soulspinner]

Thank you for the great documentation. Im envious of your connections with the masters! I too went with a position slightly longer than my fitting recommended but only after a lot of miles and stretching. Super job and like the master said, you were open to it or you would be riding cramped and less efficiently even now. A lesson to all of us to keep open to improvement and look at it in an evolutionary sense.

[dirtdigger88]

Im envious of your connections with the masters!

My connections with the masters is this Site- I asked for help and they were willing to give it-

Jason

[TmcDet]

I feel so much stronger now than ever before. I am pedaling with my hips and upper thighs not my hamstrings- I can ride much bigger gears than I ever could before.



should we feel as If we are pedaling with the hips and upper thighs? I don't feel that the way that I ride, it feels more like the lower thighs to hamstring. Do I need to go thru all these changes too?

[dirtdigger88]

Each person should do what they want- let me give you a bit of background- With my forward riding position I have a very high cadence- I usually used a gear 1-2 higher than they others I rode with but spun 10-20 rpm faster- Think a Tri position and riding style- due to that I wore my hamstring out faster that any other part of my legs- If I rode beyond my means my hams would cramp up bad-
I always told myself that I was a spinner- that I was not a big masher- I finally realized- I am near 200 lbs- like it or not I am not a light weight guy and I have no reason trying to be a spinner- If I got out on the open road with someone riding tempo I got killed because I could not spin fast enough to keep up with someone turning a 53x 14-15 at 75-80 rpm.
Now I feel the force comming from my quads and butt- not my hams- I am also not longer pedaling in squares- you know push, push, push- One thing ti designs had me work on was listening to the rollers or the trainer- if I heard a whir- whir- whir- I was doing it wrong it needs to be a constant whiiiiiiiiiiiir- see the difference? With my forward position I was not utilizing the up stroke at all- :crap:
So should everyone go out and do this- no! It was painful at time and not a lot of fun others- I am still working on it today- as i get tired my body wants to revert to my old posititon but as I continue to train that is only after many miles of hard effort- I am now riding tempo for 45- 60 minutes, 3 days a week on my rollers- when I get off the bike I feel like I had been doing squats- You have to give it time if you are going to try to make radical changes in your positition

jason

[Spinner]

Jason,

Nice job defining the fine points. I'm looking forward to riding with you in Bozeman.

[FierteTi52]

Jason,
The front end looks nicely balanced with the new lower stack height stem and a 5mm spacer. Really like the bar tape although it looks like a pain in the a** to wrap.
Jeff

[Blastinbob]

Jason, were the suggestions made with the pictures of just the bike or pictures with you on the bike ?

Bob

[bulliedawg]

Dirtdigger:

Thanks for the excellent exegesis on the evolution of your fit, and thanks to all the bike designers who were so willing to help.

I have a question: What are your body dimensions? I've always had this sneaking suspicion that we were built the same, with the nod to the more powerful side. I'm six foot, 180, with thick chest and thighs. I measured my saddle tip to bar on my 53.5 CSi, and was astonished to see that it is 51cm compare to your 60cm/58cm set up.

[dirtdigger88]

Bob- no pictures of me on the bike involved- just my measurement and my bikes-

bulliedawg- I am 6 foot and maybe 1/2 inch if I have good posture- I go 195- 198 lbs now 192 by peak cycling time- I too am thich in the chest and back and shoulders (years of being a landscaper- really) I am small in the waist (33 in) with long legs- I am really someone with a small frame (small wrists, ankles and fingers) who has packed on muscle from my line of work- I am not body builder big- I am more farmer big (if you know that term) I was 160 in high school and was a rail

Jason

[Dr. Doofus]

should we feel as If we are pedaling with the hips and upper thighs? I don't feel that the way that I ride, it feels more like the lower thighs to hamstring. Do I need to go thru all these changes too?

after a ride your legs should be evenly "toasted" -- upper and lower quads, hamstrings, all of your glutes....nothing should be more sore than the rest....

had a nice kiss and make up with foodrey's fitter...about hogg's idea of pelvic stability (when you take your hands off the drops, you should be balancing with a *flat* back)...to get the pelvis stable, so that you're not using leg and upper body muscle to stabilize your position, you generally have to be "back" and forget about KOPS....

think of it this way -- stand up in a squat position and line up your knee with your metatarsal head...ok, now try to bend over to get a flat back with your elbow just ahead of your knee (classic drops position). You'll fall on your face unless you have something to rest your weight on with your hands. If you're too far forward on the bike, your upper body has to stabilize your pelvis...so you're either riding upright with little saddle-bar drop (so the pelvis can stabilize itself) or you're putting weight on your hands and your perineum (s'cod problem on the CSi about two years ago). Striving for KOPS can often, if not usually, end up with the rider too far forward and with an unstable pelvis.

Now, stand in a squat position, and go down like your performing a squat (drop your butt back to keep your knees from moving forward), and now bend to flatten out your back with your arms extended like you're in the drops.... You should be balanced, and your tibial tuberosity (?) is going to be back behind the metatarsal head...anywhere from 5mm to maybe 5cm. Now your pelvis is stable, little weight is on your hands (its all on your feet and butt) and, like performing a squat, all the leg muscles are contributing.

how do you know when you're too far back? you can't spin, you have to scoot forward on the saddle to feel your quads get involved fully, and the belly of your hamstrings cramps up on long or hilly rides. If you can spin 120+ smoothly, you're not sore behind the knee or in your upper hamstring/lower glute, your hips don't rock, your leg extension is good, and you feel all of your quads pushing the gear along with your glutes, you're not too far back...even if you're 4-5 cm behind the flippin spindle

foodrey discovered this by accident in the 90s...and everyone told him he had bad position because he was 4cm behind the spindle...so he changed and changed some more and kept getting slower but thought this must be the way its supposed to feel because this is where the expert put him and he's "within the acceptable range" with KOPS....

and then foodrey goes back to his old position and does 40 yesterday without ever coming off the 53x17 and without going below 88rpm....

balance yer body on the bike. unless yerrafreak, putting the depressed part of the saddle in line with the seat tube will put you in a good pedaling position...and get a long stem....

[woolly]

I almost forgot- by adding the X2 stem (which has a 4mm lower stack height than the original) I was able to add a 5mm spacer under the stem for a much more balanced look at the head tube. Also look at the pix of the front of the stem- can you say minimalist?

jason

Great thread, Jason.

I like the looks of those bars too. What differences in overall brake hood position did changing the bars make? It looks like they might have resulted in both a shorter reach & slightly higher hood position, but I can't tell for sure from the pictures.

I'm seriously considering a switch to traditional/non-ergo bars for this season, but realize it can get pretty costly if much trail & (hopefully not) error is involved. Especially at approx $200 a pop for the Eastons. My first try were some Titec Malones, & while I liked the shape of the drops, the length to the hoods is noticeably more than my 3t Formas. If I find something I like, I'd prefer to set 3 bikes up w/ the same ones, and didn't really want to spring for 3 new stems too. Sure wish Easton made that exact shape in an affordable aluminum model. Sigh.

[dirtdigger88]

Woolly-

Easton does EA70 (aluminum) Pro- you have to look around but they are out there- I did not realize that until I bought my bars- but you can get the 70's in 26.4 or 31.8- ergo or pro bend and they are around 75 bucks

http://www.eastonbike.com/COMPONENTS/bar.road.ea70.html

Hoods- are no higher (though I agree they look that way in the pix) the new bars did result in a shorter reach which I wanted- my ITMs had an 88mm reach- I was comfortable on the tops of the bars (so I knew my stem was right) but I felt too far forward on the hoods and in the curve of the drops (the ITMs have a 154mm drop) the new bars shortened my reach to the hoods by 12mm- exactly what I was looking for- now with my palms on the curve on top I can reach the hoods and break and shift without reaching- I did not realize how sensitive I would be to bar reach (I did not even factor that in when I bought the bike) but the eastons are much closer to the 3Ts that I was use to on my Lemond- I originally went in and said "Im a big guy- I need lots of drop and reach" (insert Tim Allen pig grunt) But the truth is I did not like that- I would rather use a longer stem and shorter reach bars

Jason

[dirtdigger88]

should we feel as If we are pedaling with the hips and upper thighs? I don't feel that the way that I ride, it feels more like the lower thighs to hamstring. Do I need to go thru all these changes too?

that is exactly what I use to feel- now it is a much more balance pain through out my entire leg :p You too may be too far forward :confused:

jason

[pale scotsman]

Dang Jason, I now concede you're bike is prettier than mine. Looks nice and balanced, and the fit evolution synopsis is great.

I got back into road biking in '02 after 16 years of mountain biking and it took me forever to change my riding style.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3504&stc=1

[Wayne77]

Great thread, thanks for your insight.

(I significantly paired this post down once I re-read my post and realized it was quite redundant...)

This is...(beginning of edits) etc etc etc...KOPS is BS..blah blah..moved back 2cm..etc etc..got a jerk-approved stem..etc etc etc...ad nauseum...etc etc..flatter back is good...blah blah...where did the monkey go? yadda yadda..etc etc.. (end of edits)

...was able to go into the fitting knowing exactly what I wanted. Not knowing this, my chances of getting the ideal fit would have decreased substantially.

Your bike rocks!

[Wayne77]

One other thing...

On aesthetics: I think your new bike setup is much more aesthetically pleasing. Layback posts are so much nicer looking than the "sewer pipe" non-setback Thompsons (no offence Thomson users! :D) Somehow they add to the "flow" of a road bike.

That new X2 stem is very nice looking! I'm planning on that same stem for my build in the works...

[H.Frank Beshear]

Jason what changes have you had to make to yourself to achieve the longer lower more stretched out position work for you? I have tried to roll foward at the hips and generally wind sore on the outside hip/glute area, I find that if I can tuck my lower pelvic area under and then go foward I am much more comfortable. Have you done any specific stretching exercises to allow you to get into your new position? For what its worth I can touch the floor with my knees locked and come close to laying my palms on the floor when loose. Bike looks great by the way. Thanks Frank

[bulliedawg]

my ITMs had an 88mm reach- I was comfortable on the tops of the bars (so I knew my stem was right) but I felt too far forward on the hoods and in the curve of the drops (the ITMs have a 154mm drop) the new bars shortened my reach to the hoods by 12mm- exactly what I was looking for-

Okay -- here's where I'm getting lost: I don't understand how the above statement is consistent with your goal of extending reach in order to increase hip roll and flatten your back. When you switched the bars, you decreased your reach to the hoods by over a centimeter, which is pretty significant.

[dirtdigger88]

bullie- picture this- with the 12cm stem I felt perfect on the tops of the bars- but the hoods felt just a bit far (about 1cm) and I was just a bit too far forward while deep in the drops (forward in the curve)- with the 11cm stem the tops felt too close but I felt perfect on the hoods and in the curve of the drops- so by going with the 12cm stem I am perfect on the tops and with my hands just above the hoods- but with the shorter reach bars (1.2cm) I am also just as comfortable on the hoods or deep in the drops- did I explain that well enough to follow? :confused:

jason

[dirtdigger88]

Frank- what I did the most was become aware of what the proper position felt like- now I can feel if I start to curve my back and I am aware if I begin to straighten my arms out and let my shoulders rise towards my ears- I know if I am applying power to the upstroke I will feel it in my hip flexors- not pain- but I just feel them working- I know if all of this comes together I can hold a low position- I can pass the Doofs test of removing my hands from the drops while pedaling tempo and not fall on my face or rise up- I first learned this on my trainer so balance was not an issue- then on my rollers- and now out on the road- I will admit that it is easier to hold the postioin on the rollers than on the road but that will not be the case for long because I am getting more time outside now

Jason

[Tmogul]

Hey Dirtdigger,

Kudos on your most excellent post. I really think posts like yours make this forum great. I know most of us don't want to put pics of ourselves on the internet but doesn't bikecad or some program show a computer drawn person with real measurements in the ride position? That would make take your evolutionary process to the next level description wise. Just a thought.

Actually the reason I am posting is to see how you like your eleganza bar tape. They feel great and grippy. Durability???

[H.Frank Beshear]

Dirt have you measured how far back the seat tip is from the bb? I'd be curious to know how far behind the bottom bracket you are. thanks Frank

[csb]

()

[dirtdigger88]

Dirt have you measured how far back the seat tip is from the bb? I'd be curious to know how far behind the bottom bracket you are. thanks Frank

Lemond is 9- 9.25 cm

Legend is 9.5- 9.75 cm

jason

[Louis]

Jason,

Yet another question: Where was your knee relative to the pedal spindle when you started this, and where is it now?

Louis

PS Knowing how fast Jason was before this (compared to me) I hate to think how fast he is now. No more riding with you...

[dirtdigger88]

Louis- I dont really know on the knee postition- I am going to say that it didnt change much- maybe from 0 cm behind to maybe 1 cm behind- my hips rotated forward but my knees did not move a whole lot- and I dont think you have much to worry about Louis- the hills in your neck of the woods and your triple tend to level things out :D

jason

[Dr. Doofus]

dirtman --

looks like your saddle went back and up...you must have been way low, man....

in scooting yerdoofs saddle back to where it was, had to lower it 5mm...the bars too...doof should be on something like a 58.7 or 58.5...


yerrabigdude

[dirtdigger88]

bump just in case someone missed it- I am pround of my work :p

Jason