Serotta Questions

[SerottaUK1]

Hello Serotta Fourm,

I am about to purchase two Serotta bicycles out of a London, UK based dealer (Cyclefit) and wanted to introduce myself to this esteemed community. Also, I have been lurking on the forum for a bit and was hoping to elicit some feedback from those who know the company, own a Serotta bicycle, etc.

Serotta is not a very well known brand in Europe (I have only seen 3 in London metro in the 6 years I've lived here) and was hoping a some of you might share your general feelings/experiences in dealing with Serotta, their customer service, the bikes themselves, general happiness in purchase, etc.

While Serotta bikes are expensive they are even more expensive in Europe (approx 20% more in UK) because of VAT, import duty, shipping costs, etc. I am have a fitting next week for myself and two weeks later for my wife.

With the frame and bike buildups I will have spent about GBP £10,000 or $15,000 on two custom bicycles, a Legend SE for myself and most likely a Coeur d'Acier SE for my wife.

I had previously been considering IF, Moots and Seven but at moment have made the decision to purchase 2 Serottas despite the increased expense over their competition. It's a tough decision because these companies all make outstanding quality bicycles as well so I have been strugggling a bit to see how these companies differentiate themselves.

This is a large financial outlay and I want to make absolutely certain that our choice is the right one so thought I would ask for some feedback, first-hand advice from the community who knows much more about the Serotta company, quality of the bikes, dealing with the company, etc. than we do in Europe.

I have had very little contact with Serotta but what little I have had has been generally quite positive.

Lastly, could anyone tell me the benefits of a carbon rear stay on the titanium framed Legend? Can a titanium seat stay be butted in such a way where it would offer most of the comfort of carbon? I'd really prefer an all titanium frame but not if having a carbon rear stay offer significantly more comfort.

Thank you in advance to all who will have taken the time to reply.

Best regards,
James
Twickenham, Middlesex UK

[Ken Robb]

It's a wonderful company making wonderful bikes. Their customer service and communication are excellent. I think they can make a bike to meet your needs out of any of their materials. I have owned an all-steel CSi and an all-ti Legend. Both were excellent rides. I tested some with carbon stays and didn't think they added anything to my enjoyment. FWIW their brochures used to state that Ben Serotta tested every new model against his steel CSi to make sure it would ride as well. I think this meant that he was unwilling to sacrifice any overall riding goodness for a slight weight saving or a different appearance.

Perhaps you should get the steel bike first and evaluate it. You may be surprised and find that Serotta can give you just what you want without splurging on ti. At least you will see how Serotta interprets your requested ride and performance so you will better know what to ask for on the second bike.

I haven't ridden a Meivici but I have been on several Ottrots. I liked them. They were lighter than my CSi (a good bit of the difference was due to the heavy F1 threaded fork on my CSi) but the signature riding characteristics were very similar... Both of my Serottas were stock build and geometry. I am 6'1 and weigh 200 lbs.

I once rode a Fierte which was the entry-level Serotta and thought it was a fine ride as well. Its relaxed geometry and position suited me fine too.

Check the archives here for many lengthy threads answering most , if not all, of your questions.

[dekindy]

I am not the resident expert but I thought I would start it off.

Do you know exactly what you want in terms of fit and performance for both bikes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20NmfEwDmY
This is an interesting video by Carl Strong's show bike made of carbon, 953 steel, and titanium. It is relevant to you because he chose titanium for the seat stays.

I have direct experience with Serotta's warranty service. I notified them 19 days before an annual 160-mile one-day ride that my drive side dropout had a crack. They did not question the warranty claim and overnighted it to me in time for the LBS to build it back up and get it to me early the day before the ride. Granted my frame is bare titanium so there was no paint time but that is still outstanding turnaround time. I talked to Ben Serotta that Fall at NAHBS and he and the other Serotta representatives stated that they put warranty claims at the front of the line.

Have you considered Bob Jackson?

[SerottaUK1]

It's a wonderful company making wonderful bikes. Their customer service and communication are excellent. I think they can make a bike to meet your needs out of any of their materials. I have owned an all-steel CSi and an all-ti Legend. Both were excellent rides. I tested some with carbon stays and didn't think they added anything to my enjoyment. FWIW their brochures used to state that Ben Serotta tested every new model against his steel CSi to make sure it would ride as well. I think this meant that he was unwilling to sacrifice any overall riding goodness for a slight weight saving or a different appearance.

Perhaps you should get the steel bike first and evaluate it. You may be surprised and find that Serotta can give you just what you want without splurging on ti. At least you will see how Serotta interprets your requested ride and performance so you will better know what to ask for on the second bike.

I haven't ridden a Meivici but I have been on several Ottrots. I liked them. They were lighter than my CSi (a good bit of the difference was due to the heavy F1 threaded fork on my CSi) but the signature riding characteristics were very similar... Both of my Serottas were stock build and geometry. I am 6'1 and weigh 200 lbs.

I once rode a Fierte which was the entry-level Serotta and thought it was a fine ride as well. Its relaxed geometry and position suited me fine too.

Check the archives here for many lengthy threads answering most , if not all, of your questions.

Hi Ken,

Thank you for sharing your experiences in dealing with the company and for the comment about carbon stays not being hugely relevant on Ti bike. This is helpful for me.

I have checked posts in the archives but wanted a fresh view. Reputation and quality are difficult things for companies to maintain. It is a continuous effort. I will spend more time reading past threads though.

And thanks for the tip about steel bike, something to think about.

Cheers.

[SerottaUK1]

I am not the resident expert but I thought I would start it off.

Do you know exactly what you want in terms of fit and performance for both bikes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20NmfEwDmY
This is an interesting video by Carl Strong's show bike made of carbon, 953 steel, and titanium. It is relevant to you because he chose titanium for the seat stays.

I have direct experience with Serotta's warranty service. I notified them 19 days before an annual 160-mile one-day ride that my drive side dropout had a crack. They did not question the warranty claim and overnighted it to me in time for the LBS to build it back up and get it to me early the day before the ride. Granted my frame is bare titanium so there was no paint time but that is still outstanding turnaround time. I talked to Ben Serotta that Fall at NAHBS and he and the other Serotta representatives stated that they put warranty claims at the front of the line.

Have you considered Bob Jackson?

Thanks for the video link and happy to hear another positive experience. Again, the purpose of my long winded post was primarily to elicit some responses that would help put me at ease with my buying decision and grateful for your response about your warranty experience.

I have not considered Bob Jackson but see plenty of them in central london. They are very nice looking. I have a steel audax bike from Mercian Cycles which makes similar classic steel frames. Both are companies from north of england with Mercian being in Derby and Bob Jackson, Leeds based.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=SerottaUK1]Hello Serotta Fourm,

"Lastly, could anyone tell me the benefits of a carbon rear stay on the titanium framed Legend? Can a titanium seat stay be butted in such a way where it would offer most of the comfort of carbon? I'd really prefer an all titanium frame but not if having a carbon rear stay offer significantly more comfort."

Having a carbon seat stay(not a full carbon rear end) bonded onto a titanium frame is more marketing that performance. Titanium's nature is a somewhat 'comfy' material(subjective) but even a swoopy seatstay of carbon doesn't really give any sort of rear 'suspension' as is implied. Plus bonding a carbon piece onto any metal frame compromises it's life when compared to a well made all ti frame. NOT saying it is prone to failure or anything like that but it seems like an answer to a not asked question.

Nothing significant about the comfort of carbon stays vs an all ti frame.

[victoryfactory]

[QUOTE=SerottaUK1]Hello Serotta Fourm,
Nothing significant about the comfort of carbon stays vs an all ti frame.

I Totally agree.
I found the carbon stays made the ride stiffer than the all Ti
on two Serottas that I owned. ( I sold the carbon stay frame, I still ride
the Ti seven years later)

VF

[PBWrench]

I echo all of the above re: customer satisfaction, excellent fabrication, etc. I have a 2003 Legend Ti (all Ti) and love the bike. I considered carbon stays when I ordered the frame, but as I have a carbon frame as well, I went with the all Ti. I've never regretted that decision. What do I regret, however, is that when I did graduate work at University of Leeds I never purchased a Bob Jackson! Cheers, PBW

[ergott]

The carbon stays are not for comfort. They provide a small amount of travel (there is a bearing where the stay is connected to the dropouts). The point of the travel is for better handling on the road, particularly during cornering. It's a great design and I've ridden an Ottrott with these stays for the last six years.

[abqhudson]

I have owned many nice bikes including European steel and non-Serotta custom Ti and non-Serotta custom Carbon. My Serotta Ti with Carbon Fiber seat stays is easily the best riding bike I've owned. In the past, I was always looking for a nicer riding frame - I'm not looking anymore. My dealings with Serotta have always been top notch - great customer service - worth every penny.

[Ken Robb]

The carbon stays are not for comfort. They provide a small amount of travel (there is a bearing where the stay is connected to the dropouts). The point of the travel is for better handling on the road, particularly during cornering. It's a great design and I've ridden an Ottrott with these stays for the last six years.

The carbon-stayed bikes I rode did not have the pivot rear end so I'm only commenting about whether carbon stays were better per se. I do like the ride of the old H'ors Categorie and my Hampsten Strada Bianca by MOOTS with YBB rear end so I might very well like the pivot system.

[Smiley]

Buy the Ti rear end and the Steel rear end for either your Ti Bike or your wifes Steel bike, Durability in my mind would be the issue since you live far from the factory that could repair these in an event that you break a chain and it whips around and scratches the stay, Yes that has happened and I have witnessed it, repairable but a pain when you live that far to get it done.

[SerottaUK1]

Buy the Ti rear end and the Steel rear end for either your Ti Bike or your wifes Steel bike, Durability in my mind would be the issue since you live far from the factory that could repair these in an event that you break a chain and it whips around and scratches the stay, Yes that has happened and I have witnessed it, repairable but a pain when you live that far to get it done.

Good point, Smiley. Thanks.

[SerottaUK1]

[QUOTE=SerottaUK1]Hello Serotta Fourm,

"Lastly, could anyone tell me the benefits of a carbon rear stay on the titanium framed Legend? Can a titanium seat stay be butted in such a way where it would offer most of the comfort of carbon? I'd really prefer an all titanium frame but not if having a carbon rear stay offer significantly more comfort."

Having a carbon seat stay(not a full carbon rear end) bonded onto a titanium frame is more marketing that performance. Titanium's nature is a somewhat 'comfy' material(subjective) but even a swoopy seatstay of carbon doesn't really give any sort of rear 'suspension' as is implied. Plus bonding a carbon piece onto any metal frame compromises it's life when compared to a well made all ti frame. NOT saying it is prone to failure or anything like that but it seems like an answer to a not asked question.

Nothing significant about the comfort of carbon stays vs an all ti frame.

Thanks Old Potatoe; I am grateful. This is all useful feeback. I really want to make sure I get the orders 100% correct.

[dave thompson]

The carbon stays are not for comfort. They provide a small amount of travel (there is a bearing where the stay is connected to the dropouts). The point of the travel is for better handling on the road, particularly during cornering. It's a great design and I've ridden an Ottrott with these stays for the last six years.
This point has to be emphasized; that the ST carbon rear stays are not merely carbon. It is in fact a rear suspension, derivative of Dave Kirks DKS that actually provides some movement of the rear axle and is designed to keep the rear wheel on the ground, rather than being upset by a sharp blow like a ridge or rock in the road. There is a bearing pivot as ergott stated above that allows and controls this movement. Not so much a comfort feature as a 'keeping control under adverse conditions' feature. Whether this is worth the price difference is up to you. I've had both Legend Ti and Ottrott Serottas with and without the ST carbon rear. If I were to order a new Serotta, mine would have the ST carbon stays.

From Serotta's website:
Serotta Patented Carbon Fiber Stay and Pivot System
Proprietary curved ST carbon fiber seat stay, produced in the US, is joined to the dropouts by a bearing system that allows a small degree of vertical compliance in the rear end of the bike. This added compliance helps to keep the rear tire in contact with the ground during hard cornering and acceleration while also providing increased vibration damping.

FEATURED ON: Ottrott SE, Legend SE

[ergott]

The carbon-stayed bikes I rode did not have the pivot rear end so I'm only commenting about whether carbon stays were better per se. I do like the ride of the old H'ors Categorie and my Hampsten Strada Bianca by MOOTS with YBB rear end so I might very well like the pivot system.

Yeah, I was speaking specifically about the ST rear based on the models he's asking about.

[Ken Robb]

If I were to order a new Serotta, mine would have the ST carbon stays.



[/I]
OKAY everybody--we shouldn't have long to wait. Dave hasn't bought a bike all week. :)

[jeo99]

[QUOTE=dave thompson]This point has to be emphasized; that the ST carbon rear stays are not merely carbon. It is in fact a rear suspension, derivative of Dave Kirks DKS that actually provides some movement of the rear axle and is designed to keep the rear wheel on the ground, rather than being upset by a sharp blow like a ridge or rock in the road. There is a bearing pivot as ergott stated above that allows and controls this movement. Not so much a comfort feature as a 'keeping control under adverse conditions' feature. Whether this is worth the price difference is up to you. I've had both Legend Ti and Ottrott Serottas with and without the ST carbon rear. If I were to order a new Serotta, mine would have the ST carbon stays.

IMO, as an owner of both an all Ti Legion and a Legion ST, I would echo Dave's comments as per usual. Additionally, I will say that I love both machines. However, my experience without technical knowledge but with 1000's of miles of ride time, my posterior is always less strained in a century ride on the Ti/ST. 6'2" 200# rider

:beer:

[djg]

I have 3 Serotta bikes, but I might be a poor point of comparison. Serotta is known -- chiefly I think -- for top quality custom bikes. I have three stock models -- off the peg. Two are relatively recent bikes that I bought new, an HSG Ti (Ti with carbon stays, but not the ST stays) and a GP Suisse Cyclocross bike (all Ti frame, with an AlphaQ cross fork). The third is an older steel CSi that I bought used.

My road bike (HSG) is a kick-ass road bike -- very stable, very responsive . . . does everything right. I have no idea what difference the curved carbon stays make -- great ride, dependable in corners, but I have no way to parse the materials contributions while I'm riding. And FWIW, the finish on the stock model bike was killer. The GP Suisse is a really good cross bike -- lots of complements (once, sadly, from a guy while he was passing me at a race in Maryland, but that's not the bike's fault). Ti stays, which I sorta prefer for a cross bike, but again it's hard for me to parse the relative contributions of this bit or that.

I'm completely confident that Serotta can build a great bike. Work with a good shop and a good fitter -- send them reliable information -- and things should go very, very well.

I've never had a warranty claim so I cannot speak to that end of the business. I've heard that Serotta is excellent in standing behind their product, but that's word of mouth. I did have a mis-communication about the fork on my cross bike, which I felt was Serotta's fault, and I can say that they stood behind the product and made it right, to my satisfaction.

The question of relative value is harder to address. It's your dime, not mine. The budget constraints are yours and, as much as I'm a Serotta fan, it's just true that there are other fine bikes out there. Serotta does some things that are distinctive, but it's hard to argue that there are not alternatives or that every stranger should prefer one rather than the other. I'm surprised to hear that there's all that much of delta in price between your options. It's tough to do an apples-to-apples comparison, of course, but all the companies you mentioned offer different price points with different tube sets, and you at least ought to compare up-market choices from IF and Moots to take some account of all that Serotta puts into the pipes. Then, of course, parts, wheels, etc. are a wash -- is there really a big price difference?

Bottom line -- do I think Serotta is a great choice? You bet. Do I have an opinion about the money thing? Nope -- different for everyone.

[Ken Robb]

IMO, as an owner of both an all Ti Legion and a Legion ST, I would echo Dave's comments as per usual. Additionally, I will say that I love both machines. However, my experience without technical knowledge but with 1000's of miles of ride time, my posterior is always less strained in a century ride on the Ti/ST. 6'2" 200# rider

:beer:[/QUOTE]

What's a "Legion"?

[RkyMtn]

Either way you are going to have a fantastic pair of bikes. I have Meivici with the stiffest tube set (except for the seat tube) and the ST carbon stays. I find the road feel to be crisp with great feedback, but not wearing on me over a long ride. The big bonus of the ST carbon stays is when you run through bad road conditions and potholes. the bearing pivot allow for enough give to keep the wheel on the ground and you from being launched off the saddle. I am very happy with this technology.

The Serotta is a great bike and you need not fret over details, as this company only does the best with whatever product they sell.

I also own a Colnago Master X-Light, Pegoretti Marcelo, Moots Vamoots, and a Cannondale Synapse SL, to give you an idea of what I have to compare the Meivici against.

Cheers and be happy that you are getting a great bike!

Eric

[joelh]

I have an older steel frame Serotta as well as steel frame Waterford, and an IF mountain bike.

While I am not up to speed on the latest Serotta models, I can say without a doubt that they are among the best made bicycles available.

One of the things that would appeal to me about owning a Serotta in your situation, is that is will be rather unique. While there are certainly many nice bicycle that would fit the bill. I think it is cool to own something that no one else has.