Boos for Vino

[thwart]

So... a little poll. What would you have done at the finish line at Liege today?

[StellaBlue]

It's funny how some do their time and are forgiven and some are not. This sport is in the same boat as Baseball to me. They are all guilty until proven innocent..

PS: I can care less who dopes or doesn't, I enjoy watching racing. IMO the best racing was watching Marco and the rest of the dope heads a decade ago..

Polite applause

[weiwentg]

Hamilton and Landis at least attempted to prove their innocence. Hamilton, in particular, accepted the result when he had no avenues of appeal.

Vino basically got out because the Kazakh federation refused to apply the same standards of punishment. He never attempted to explain himself.

As to Hamilton and Landis, it's likely they doped, but I still don't think they would have been proven guilty under criminal standards of evidence

[JohnHemlock]

Enthusiastic applause. He kicked the **** out of them.

[Jack Brunk]

Enthusiastic applause. He kicked the **** out of them.
+1 He did kick some major ass on everyone. Impressive.

[johnnymossville]

I'm a sucker for a great race. I want to believe he's clean now even though he's probably not. I'd applaud

[Waldo]

Those who repent and show contrition deserve applause. In my book, Vino is a very small step above Ricco. A very small step.

[bluesea]

I don't get emotional over sports, and would have applauded with appropriate respect. He alluded to, and basically admitted to his drug use after the victory. He rode impressively. He is in all probability still using.

Its too easy to be harshly critical, and I say this sadly finding myself falling into that judgmental mode much too often. The scale of organized institutional PED use from the lowest to the highest levels, makes it ludicrous for aficionados to gleefully continue to venomously persecute certain riders at every turn. Are the riders not the one's operating from the lowest of rungs? Must we all mindlessly ape American Idol judges in order to gratify our own sense of righteous wit?

Rewatching Jurgen Leth's "A Sunday In Hell" has re-opened my eyes to a small extent. De Vlaeminck had attacked and created the lead group that included the small final selection that will eventually break off to enter alone into the velodrome. Although he later flats and misses that final selection, which relegates himself to the chase group with Merckx, Walter Godefroot is in that lead group.

Considering his palmares and looking at that big man ride, he was definitely one of the strong men of Belgium. Godefroot like Merckx, were both among those of his time who were busted for drugs. That image conflicts greatly with those broadcasted by the media after Godefroot was pushed out as Director of T-Mobile. In the latter he is a clownishly bespectacled old man with a beer gut and receding hairline, with nothing that shows of a former hard riding professional cyclist.

The tradition and custom of drug use is in deeper than the veins of professional cycling--it exists in the microscopic cells of the sport. Europe is a land that to a certain extent consciously and unconsciously lives in antiquity, custom, and habit. Professional cycling follows that same path.

It is all too easy to find and burn a witch, and wipe the dust from one's hands, than it is to look at and tackle the broader extent of a problem.

[rcnute]

Those who repent and show contrition deserve applause. In my book, Vino is a very small step above Ricco. A very small step.

Repent and contrition=dog and pony show.

[LegendRider]

Repent and contrition=dog and pony show.

Sometimes, but certainly not always. I believe Millar is genuinely contrite.

[weiwentg]

Those who repent and show contrition deserve applause. In my book, Vino is a very small step above Ricco. A very small step.

Vino's a step below Ricco, imo. Ricco at least gave details to prosecutors (iirc). Vino may have alluded to doping, but he was protesting his innocence for quite some time after being convicted.

[victoryfactory]

Too bad the doping thing has muddied the waters in the sport.
The debatable advantage that doping gives taken away,
Vino is one of the great riders. Maybe not "likable" in that phony
"I'm just a regular humble guy" balderdash that some sports figures
like to project, but more like a badger type who starts
out claiming to be a team player and then gets carried away because he wants
to win.

There are always some fans in any sport that love to hate winners because
they don't like the arrogance or style with which they win.
Like Yankee haters and Lance haters. So be it. There is something pure and
primal in a guy who can go out and Win A Race. On any level. That's what
I'm a fan of.

Not warm and fuzzy, but fun to watch, a real wild card. I am glad he's back,
I hope he stays clean.

VF

[Dave B]

I don't know, these guys aren't like you and I. Sure their world seems glamorous to us, but do we really know what it was like to grow up in their conditons and life choices. If it is this life over say some factory job then maybe they will do anything to make it...including doping.

I think we view these guys as though they live by the same code, honor, morals, whatever you wish to label it as we do. I doubt that we can fully understand what it is like to live as a top pro cyclist and truly understand what their lives would, could, can be like.

Plus I keep reminding myself, none of these guys knows or cares about my life or my problems, so I just enjoy the racing. The personalities are phony anyway. If you think these guys (well maybe cavendish) are allowed to think for themselves then look behind the curtain. Someone is feeding them the pro speak.

[rockdude]

IMO the best racing was watching Marco and the rest of the dope heads a decade ago..

When doping was more open, you saw a lot more fireworks and excitment.

[StellaBlue]

When doping was more open, you saw a lot more fireworks and excitment.

Yup, Grand tours are boring and predictable now..

[Ray]

First, perhaps SPOILER in the title instead of Vino's name.

Second, if I'm gonna decide to cheer or not cheer depending on whether the winner has been CAUGHT doping, I'm just rewarding the better cheaters. Or if you don't consider it cheating, the better stealth dopers. I cheer for a great race and a great show of guts in winning it regardless of any previous or anticipated sanctions against the rider(s) in question.

But I guess I don't have to watch this one once VS gets around to showing now that I know the result.

-Ray

[54ny77]

vino really, really cares what a bunch of rednecks on some internet bike forum think of him. :p

[rockdude]

vino really, really cares what a bunch of rednecks on some internet bike forum think of him. :p

You are right, Vino doesn't care. Vino cares about Vino.

FYI- I really like Vino. He is one racer that will try and sometimes pull off a crazy bone-headed move. He does make racing exciting.

[David Kirk]

First, perhaps SPOILER in the title instead of Vino's name.

-Ray

I agree. I taped the race yesterday so I could watch it tonight. Not a big deal but a bit of a bummer.

Dave

[Rueda Tropical]

I'll leave the doping prosecution to the courts and the moral judgements to someone better then me. You can look your nose down at Vino while your chosen hero might be just as dirty. Acts of contrition are just PR, the only thing they are sorry for is getting caught.

Vino rode a great race and I'll applaud him and any other racer who rides like that doped to the gills or not. Chalk one up for the greater glory of Kazakhstan. I wonder if Alberto snaged one of those Vino4ever jerseys.

[MattTuck]

I agree. I taped the race yesterday so I could watch it tonight. Not a big deal but a bit of a bummer.

Dave


Where did you tape it?


I am all for spoiler alerts in the title, but there is NO way I could remain ignorant of the result (based on the websites I visit regularly) unless I went to live in a cave until next Sunday.

Vs should show races the same day, NOT NEXT WEEK!

[thwart]

First, perhaps SPOILER in the title instead of Vino's name. Sorry about that. My apologies.

Although you'd think that by late on the evening of race day that all delayed broadcasts would've already been shown.

Yep, you're right... I don't own a DVR. Or have Versus.

Engage brain before posting... :crap:

[William]

Pro bike racing is like a circus. Sure, we like to see the lions, Elephants, and trapeze artists. But the real reason everyone goes is the clowns, bearded women, wolf boys, and fish men.

It is what it is.

FWIW, PED’s do not make tactics, and smart/crazy tactics are always fun to watch in a race.....even if the Fish Man might be juiced to the gills.







William AKA: The Giant <Ca-AH-AH-AH-AH-AH-mpy!> Goat Man

[David Kirk]

Where did you tape it?


I am all for spoiler alerts in the title, but there is NO way I could remain ignorant of the result (based on the websites I visit regularly) unless I went to live in a cave until next Sunday.

Vs should show races the same day, NOT NEXT WEEK!

My bad - I taped F. Wallone yesterday from VS and got the two events confused. I don't expect anyone to not talk about stuff for a week.

Sorry for my pre-coffee confusion.


dave

[JohnHemlock]

Vino rode a great race and I'll applaud him and any other racer who rides like that doped to the gills or not. Chalk one up for the greater glory of Kazakhstan. I wonder if Alberto snaged one of those Vino4ever jerseys.

I don't know if FingerBang has one but I would like one.

[fourflys]

I don't know, these guys aren't like you and I. Sure their world seems glamorous to us, but do we really know what it was like to grow up in their conditons and life choices. If it is this life over say some factory job then maybe they will do anything to make it...including doping.

I think we view these guys as though they live by the same code, honor, morals, whatever you wish to label it as we do. I doubt that we can fully understand what it is like to live as a top pro cyclist and truly understand what their lives would, could, can be like.

Plus I keep reminding myself, none of these guys knows or cares about my life or my problems, so I just enjoy the racing. The personalities are phony anyway. If you think these guys (well maybe cavendish) are allowed to think for themselves then look behind the curtain. Someone is feeding them the pro speak.

Sorry I don't buy it....

Just because you grow up in mud and pig crap doesn't mean you have the right to cheat to pull yourself up and out... Don't kid yourself, regardless of what others are doing... doping is cheating... Honor, Morals and Values are universal... sure, the specifics may change a bit, but murder, lying, cheating, etc is pretty much accepted all over the world as wrong (or so my ethics class tells me)...

And as far as them not caring about our lives... True, they could care less what I do on a daily basis, but I'm not a professional athlete... When a person accepts a professional contract in any sport, they accept the fact that there are different standards... It always cracks me up when football or baseball players try to say they are not role models... BULLSH$T! A pro athlete is a role model regardless if they want to be or the kids parents want them to be, its just the way it works...

ok, I'm stepping off my soapbox now... :D

[BillG]

He was being booed because there was evidence in the French press that he's continued to "work" with Ferrari and Fuentes during the ban and since. That seems a good reason to boo.

I thought the 2009 TdF was awesome. It's a lot of fun with less doping.

[StellaBlue]

I thought the 2009 TdF was awesome. It's a lot of fun with less doping.

We must have watched a different race.

[BillG]

We must have watched a different race.

Spartacus! Contador! Lance! Wiggins! Schleck! Attack! Cover! Real racing, not Rasmussen superjuice crap.

Awesome.

2008 was kind of boring.

[StellaBlue]

Spartacus! Contador! Lance! Wiggins! Schleck! Attack! Cover! Real racing, not Rasmussen superjuice crap.

Awesome.

2008 was kind of boring.

The result was never in doubt. If that's a great race to you, God Bless

[Ray]

My bad - I taped F. Wallone yesterday from VS and got the two events confused. I don't expect anyone to not talk about stuff for a week.

Sorry for my pre-coffee confusion.


dave
I actually realized I'd taped Fleche Wallone yesterday but didn't realize it would be a week before Vs televised Liege. But even so, I didn't watch Flanders or Roubaix for a few days after the races had actually happened and there were numerous discussions of them here and across the hall. Which, of course, is no problem. But NONE of them mentioned the winner in the thread topic line. Some said "spoiler", some didn't, but it was possible for me to avoid opening those threads for those few days and NOT know who won until I actually watched the races.

This would get tricky during a grand tour, when there is day after day after day of results, which are relevant to the next day and the next, etc. Nonetheless, a convention of no winners names in thread titles until sometime after its over would be a considerate way to go.

-Ray

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this seems like a great idea. Keep winners names out of thread titles! . . . and don't forget to include "spoiler" in the title, too! :beer:

Also let's keep this particular thread friendly, lest Pete force one of us to use our Evil Moderator super powers . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

I actually realized I'd taped Fleche Wallone yesterday but didn't realize it would be a week before Vs televised Liege. But even so, I didn't watch Flanders or Roubaix for a few days after the races had actually happened and there were numerous discussions of them here and across the hall. Which, of course, is no problem. But NONE of them mentioned the winner in the thread topic line. Some said "spoiler", some didn't, but it was possible for me to avoid opening those threads for those few days and NOT know who won until I actually watched the races.

This would get tricky during a grand tour, when there is day after day after day of results, which are relevant to the next day and the next, etc. Nonetheless, a convention of no winners names in thread titles until sometime after its over would be a considerate way to go.

-Ray

[BillG]

The result was never in doubt. If that's a great race to you, God Bless

Are you looking fondly back at the year Bjarne Riis won? :)

Unpredictability is different from doping. I could name quite a few years where there was a lot of doping and there was little question who would win! 2008 was unpredictable, relatively clean, and boring. 2009 was predictable in some ways but not others (Thor's great ride for example). And some of the individual stages were just incredible, Haussler's win.

Some of them were boring, some weren't. There are lots of races within the race, lots of intrigue, that's what makes it a great sport. There's a lot more to the TdF than the eventual winner.

[Charles M]

Polite applause. That course is a monster.

He's done his time and he's back. If he tests again he's out for life and should be.

Till he proves otherwise, I'll cheer. The guys an attacker and extremely fun to watch.

[StellaBlue]

There's a lot more to the TdF than the eventual winner.

This is true. That being said, that race didn't live up to the hype. At least for me..

[JohnHemlock]

The result was never in doubt. If that's a great race to you, God Bless

Hmmm, when I was wobbling up Ventoux with a backpack full of baguettes and wine bottles and a crippling hangover, the result was very much in doubt.

The race, not so much. But good times anyway!