Road Tubeless Handbuilt Wheels?

[MattTuck]

Just got off the phone with a lady at Peter White cycles and was a bit confused (or I think she was).

I called to ask if any of the wheels he builds are capable of running a road Tubeless set up. She left for 4 or 5 minutes to ask Peter (who I guess was helping a customer) and when she came back, she said, "yes, he can build a wheel with Mavic Reflex rims" so I said, "Ok, thanks." and hung up.

Then I look online and see that the Reflex rims are for TUBULAR tires. I hope it was just just a mistranslation (like a real life game of telephone) and he doesn't think he can build a TUBELESS wheel on a TUBULAR rim.

So, I'll ask you guys... most of the tubeless set ups that I've seen are factory built wheels. Are there any custom builders making tubeless set ups?

[fourflys]

So, I'll ask you guys... most of the tubeless set ups that I've seen are factory built wheels. Are there any custom builders making tubeless set ups?

Matt- I have no idea if anyone makes a handbuilt tubeless setup, but I just wonder how much of a difference handbuilt really makes... I have a set of handbuilt DT Swiss 240S/RR 1.1 wheels and I'm not sure I can tell any difference form any other wheels I've ridden (Kysrium SL's and Ultegra/OP) that were machine built...

My guess is the Campy or Shimano or ??? machine built wheels will ride much the same as most handbuilts... I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, but it wouldn't be the first time... :D

[Ray]

AFAIK, there are no rims yet available that are specifically designed for tubeless. I understand that Stan's (the NoTubes folks) are getting one together, but I don't think they're available yet. ALMOST any rim can be converted to tubeless using Stan's NoTubes kit, which consists of really strong rim tape that essentially seals the spoke holes so they don't leak air, includes tubeless tires, and a tube of sealant which isn't really necessary on tubeless specific wheels but probably isn't a bad idea, particularly on many converted rims (which might not seal quite as well around the tire bead). So, in a sense, almost any handbuilt wheel can be tubeless. You can do the conversion yourself or I think Stan's will do it for you for a fee - not sure about this last part.

The one REALLY BIG exception that I'm aware of is Mavic Open Pros, which the folks at Stans have told me they've had trouble with. They sometimes burp air when hitting bumps in the road, which is obviously not what you want. This is big because Open Pros are so ubiquitous - they're everywhere.

This is probably more than you wanted to know. Once Stan's gets its tubeless specific rims to market, you could have a custom wheelbuilder make you a set from these - I don't know anything about them or their specs though.

-Ray

[Ray]

Matt- I have no idea if anyone makes a handbuilt tubeless setup, but I just wonder how much of a difference handbuilt really makes... I have a set of handbuilt DT Swiss 240S/RR 1.1 wheels and I'm not sure I can tell any difference form any other wheels I've ridden (Kysrium SL's and Ultegra/OP) that were machine built...

My guess is the Campy or Shimano or ??? machine built wheels will ride much the same as most handbuilts... I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, but it wouldn't be the first time... :D
Different wheels can ride very differently. I have two sets of tubeless specific wheels, just to compare apples and apples. One is a Fulcrum Racing Zero, which has big wide alu spokes much like a Ksyrium. The other is the Dura Ace carbon wheel with an alu braking surface, which has much more traditional small spokes. They're like night and day. The Fulcrums feel very stiff and fairly harsh at normal air pressure. Because they're tubeless I can run 'em at 80-85 psi and that takes the sting out of 'em, but they're really stiff feeling. The Shimanos feel incredibly compliant. So compliant that I'm sometimes looking down to assure myself I don't have a slow leak going on in the rear tire. They're still very quick and responsive, but a VERY different feel. I tend to run these about 10-15 psi higher than the fulcrums just because they feel so compliant on their own.

So there's a lot of variation, which also occurs between handbuilts, between various handbuilt and factory built wheels, etc.

-Ray

[MattTuck]

Both good answers, thanks.


I won't profess to say which is better, a pair of HED ardennes or a pair of wheels built by Peter White with a life time guarantee that cost half as much.

Ray, since the Open Pro rims are ESPECIALLY ubiquitous in the handbuilt community, that is problematic. It isn't so much that I want tubeless NOW, but if I get a new set of wheels, it would be good to have the option to move to tubeless (if I wanted to, in the future) with minimal hassle. The open pro may NOT be the way to go, based on the experience of the Stan's folks.

[Ray]

Both good answers, thanks.


I won't profess to say which is better, a pair of HED ardennes or a pair of wheels built by Peter White with a life time guarantee that cost half as much.

Ray, since the Open Pro rims are ESPECIALLY ubiquitous in the handbuilt community, that is problematic. It isn't so much that I want tubeless NOW, but if I get a new set of wheels, it would be good to have the option to move to tubeless (if I wanted to, in the future) with minimal hassle. The open pro may NOT be the way to go, based on the experience of the Stan's folks.
You should give Stan's a call. They've converted damn near everything and they could tell you which rims work well and which work less well. And they could probably tell you a lot more about their upcoming rim as well. Very helpful folks in my experience.

-Ray

[turpentine]

I don't get tubeless
if you are going to go with something such a pain in the ass, why not just go tubular?
maybe if you had a decent clincher wheelset and wanted to extract a little more zen and drop a couple of grams? but aside from that I don't see the appeal.

[Ray]

I don't get tubeless
if you are going to go with something such a pain in the ass, why not just go tubular?
maybe if you had a decent clincher wheelset and wanted to extract a little more zen and drop a couple of grams? but aside from that I don't see the appeal.
Its not much of a pain in the ass at all is I guess all I can tell you. Yeah, some conversions can be a bit of work up front - tubeless specific are NO hassle up front. In the case of a flat on the road, I just carry a tube to get me home and then patch the puncture or put on a new tire when I get home. No glue, easy to fix on the road, etc. I'm not knocking tubular, but I didn't want to go there. Tubeless was easy and the ride quality from being able to run 10-15 psi lower than with clinchers makes a big difference.

-Ray

[fourflys]

Its not much of a pain in the ass at all is I guess all I can tell you. Yeah, some conversions can be a bit of work up front - tubeless specific are NO hassle up front. In the case of a flat on the road, I just carry a tube to get me home and then patch the puncture or put on a new tire when I get home. No glue, easy to fix on the road, etc. I'm not knocking tubular, but I didn't want to go there. Tubeless was easy and the ride quality from being able to run 10-15 psi lower than with clinchers makes a big difference.

-Ray

I'm pretty sure my next set of wheels will be the Campy 2-Way wheels, I'm just waiting for some more choices in tires... I was told by the Campy guy that we should be seeing some options from Maxxis, Schwalbe and IRC around the time of the Tour of Ca....

As far as being a pain, not sure they're any more of a pain than clinchers...

[CGReid]

I don't get tubeless
if you are going to go with something such a pain in the ass, why not just go tubular?
maybe if you had a decent clincher wheelset and wanted to extract a little more zen and drop a couple of grams? but aside from that I don't see the appeal.

I think part of the appeal of tubeless is less pain in the ass (literally :)), they actually ride better than tube clinchers but not as well as tubulars.

[GregL]

Stan's is advertising a new road tubeless rim, the Alpha 340. It's not on their website yet, but it is shown in a print advertisement in the latest VeloNews.

-Greg

[jlwdm]

I won't profess to say which is better, a pair of HED ardennes or a pair of wheels built by Peter White with a life time guarantee that cost half as much.



Are you comparing apples to apples. What are you comparing to the HED Ardennes?

Jeff

[MattTuck]

Are you comparing apples to apples. What are you comparing to the HED Ardennes?

Jeff

It wasn't really supposed to be a comparison. Just saying that there are many price points for both hand-built (boutique) and factory built (branded) wheels. And different people have different preferences.

I'm not saying that one is better or worse, just making the point that (it seemed to me) the bulk of folks running tubeless are running them on factory built (branded) wheels.

The real purpose of my original post was to figure out if the boutique wheel builders had adopted the tubeless...

[bfd]

It wasn't really supposed to be a comparison. Just saying that there are many price points for both hand-built (boutique) and factory built (branded) wheels. And different people have different preferences.

I'm not saying that one is better or worse, just making the point that (it seemed to me) the bulk of folks running tubeless are running them on factory built (branded) wheels.

The real purpose of my original post was to figure out if the boutique wheel builders had adopted the tubeless...

This has got to be a first, someone calling hand-built wheels, boutiques?!@ Usually, the overpriced factory wheels, which you call "branded," are the ones most people call "boutiques."

A hand-built wheel is one that is build using standard rim, hub and spokes and can be easily repaired at "anybikeshopusa."

Also, I agree with others, if you're actually going to the trouble of using tubeless tires, you might has well use tubulars. I've never seen the advantage of tubeless tires for road use. Good Luck!

[ergott]

I have 3 sets of handbuilt tubeless wheels and I'm building up a single-speed set as a 4th. I've been using Stan's 29er rims each time. For the cross bike I run Michelin Muds and Jets tubeless.

For the road I've run Fusions and the next set of wheels are getting the Intensive 25mm. I put standard tires and tubes on the road wheels as well and simply like the wheelset. The road set I have are silver Chorus hubs and 32 3X CX-Rays all around.

The rims are wide, but that seems to be the trend of prebuilts these days so I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary anymore. The wheels are fantastic.

[ergott]

I've never seen the advantage of tubeless tires for road use. Good Luck!

I regularly ride all three tire types (and will continue to). Different strokes for different strokes. They all have their good/bad sides.

[Ray]

Also, I agree with others, if you're actually going to the trouble of using tubeless tires, you might has well use tubulars. I've never seen the advantage of tubeless tires for road use. Good Luck!
Have you ridden them? I haven't ridden tubulars for more than just riding around the block on someone else's bike to check them out. But the folks I know who've ridden both extensively tend to agree that they're a lot nicer than clinchers but not quite as nice as tubulars. And I know a few tubular riders who thought tubeless rode just as well as tubulars, but I wouldn't try to pass that off as a majority opinion. Nonetheless, everyone who's tried them seems to agree they have some real benefit over clinchers (I definitely find that, although I still use clinchers for some situations) and with less hassle than getting up to speed with tubulars (gluing, stretching, etc.)

-Ray

[oldpotatoe]

Just got off the phone with a lady at Peter White cycles and was a bit confused (or I think she was).

I called to ask if any of the wheels he builds are capable of running a road Tubeless set up. She left for 4 or 5 minutes to ask Peter (who I guess was helping a customer) and when she came back, she said, "yes, he can build a wheel with Mavic Reflex rims" so I said, "Ok, thanks." and hung up.

Then I look online and see that the Reflex rims are for TUBULAR tires. I hope it was just just a mistranslation (like a real life game of telephone) and he doesn't think he can build a TUBELESS wheel on a TUBULAR rim.

So, I'll ask you guys... most of the tubeless set ups that I've seen are factory built wheels. Are there any custom builders making tubeless set ups?

The answer is yes, you can convert any clincher rim to tubeless with Stan's tape, valve, Stan's goop and tubeless tires. Some locally have even used any wire bead clincher with the above to make 'em tubeless. Lennard Zinn has also.

[MattTuck]

This has got to be a first, someone calling hand-built wheels, boutiques?!@ Usually, the overpriced factory wheels, which you call "branded," are the ones most people call "boutiques."

A hand-built wheel is one that is build using standard rim, hub and spokes and can be easily repaired at "anybikeshopusa."

Also, I agree with others, if you're actually going to the trouble of using tubeless tires, you might has well use tubulars. I've never seen the advantage of tubeless tires for road use. Good Luck!

I see your point. To me, the boutique made more sense when you're going to a particular wheel builder with a reputation. Wheels made at anybikeshopusa are not boutique, I'd certainly agree with you there.

[fourflys]

I regularly ride all three tire types (and will continue to). Different strokes for different strokes. They all have their good/bad sides.

Eric,
Any chance you could do a quick pro/con rundown?

[mbusa]

I have two sets of DT240/rr 1.1's that I run a Stans conversion and Hutchinson Fusion2 tubeless tires. They are the best riding clinchers I've ever had. I run them @ 100 psi and have never had a flat. I've punctured them a couple times on rural roads and the stan's sealant did it's job I lost ~20psi and just kept going. I took the rear one off for the winter and this post has reminded me to reinstall it. But the front one has well over 1500 miles on it and is fine.

I've also done similar wheel builds for some customer all to rave reviews. The only downside as I can tell is that the tires are limited and expensive.

FYI I still use tubulars for race wheels but don't notice nearly the difference with the ride as I used to. An I'm using the ubiquitous Vittoria Corsa CX and run them at 120psi.

[ergott]

Eric,
Any chance you could do a quick pro/con rundown?

This is not definitive. These are my personal experiences after putting many miles on each setup and with many different wheels.

Clinchers

Pros
Most familiar. Sometimes that is all that is needed.
The highest quality setups do ride pretty nice (paired with latex tubes).
Lot's of wheel choices.

Cons
Aero profile wheels are heavy (how much of a disadvantage this is depends on conditions).
If you've never ridden tubulars you really know the real disadvantages (ride and handling).

Tubulars

Pros
The best of the best wheels (custom or production).
In aero configurations the wheels are far lighter than their clincher counterparts.
The lightest wheels overall are tubular.
Nothing rides as smooth as low profile rims (Nemesis, Pari Roubaix, some GP4s etc.) paired with supple tires like Veloflex Crits or similar, nothing.

The best tires are tubulars (handmade and with latex inners).
The handling and suppleness of the best tire/wheel choices must be experienced to believe.

Cons
You have to run good tires to get the "feel" advantage and that gets pricey.
Initial setup takes longer.

Tubeless

Pros
With sealant (either in advance or after the first puncture), they will keep you riding through more flats.
It's early yet, but I think the ride is at least as good as mediocre tubulars and better clinchers.
Once setup, you shouldn't have to take the tires off until they wear out making them a great choice for commuting.

Cons
Initial setup takes longer.
Fewer rim/tire choices (this will change).
Still a little new relatively speaking.


In my experience, you can have a great setup with any of the systems. The tubeless seem to be a great compromise between tubulars and clinchers. They offer many of the advantages of both for me. Anyone that rules any of the systems is being closed minded.

(PS I wrote this while I was a little busy so don't hold me to everything you read;-)

[jblande]

may have written fast, but seems like a very reasonable answer.

[fourflys]

Thanks Eric, that's what I was looking for...

Now my dilemma is wait until I can acquire a set of the Campy or Fulcrum 2-Ways or convert my DT Swiss or Kysriums to tubeless...

I'll probably hold out until the Tour of CA to see if Maxxis or Schwalbe introduce thier tubeless versions...

Thoughts on the Hutchinson tires?

[Ray]

Thanks Eric, that's what I was looking for...

Now my dilemma is wait until I can acquire a set of the Campy or Fulcrum 2-Ways or convert my DT Swiss or Kysriums to tubeless...

I'll probably hold out until the Tour of CA to see if Maxxis or Schwalbe introduce thier tubeless versions...

Thoughts on the Hutchinson tires?
Ksyriums are INSANELY easy to convert. Its really not even a conversion, since they already don't have spoke holes on the inner walls. You just have to pop a tubeless valve in there, mount the tire, and hit it with a shot of Co2. They usually need a shot of Co2 to seat properly the first time, but should be fine with a pump after that. Sealant is also possible but not required. I had a set of Ksyriums that I rode as tubeless for a while. Pretty much transformed them. Go for it - its barely a conversion, more of just a change of tire!

-Ray

[jblande]

Ray,

do you (or anyone else for that matter) know if that is true of the Campy Eurus as well? I don't think mine have rim tape or holes either...

Thanks!

JBL

[Ray]

Ray,

do you (or anyone else for that matter) know if that is true of the Campy Eurus as well? I don't think mine have rim tape or holes either...

Thanks!

JBL
I'm not familiar with them, but if they don't have spoke holes and the only place for air to leave the rim is the valve hole, you should be golden. I have a set of the Fulcrum 2-way fit, which are basically identical to the Campy 2-way fit. Not sure how they differ from the standard Campy/Fulcrum wheels if those already don't have spoke holes.

-Ray

[fourflys]

I'm not familiar with them, but if they don't have spoke holes and the only place for air to leave the rim is the valve hole, you should be golden. I have a set of the Fulcrum 2-way fit, which are basically identical to the Campy 2-way fit. Not sure how they differ from the standard Campy/Fulcrum wheels if those already don't have spoke holes.

-Ray


Ray or anyone else,
What's your thoughts on the Hutchinson tires? good? preference between the new atom or Road2/Road 3?

[Ray]

Ray or anyone else,
What's your thoughts on the Hutchinson tires? good? preference between the new atom or Road2/Road 3?
Only ridden Fusion 2. I like 'em a lot. I'd think about the Intense (the 25mm tire), but the Fusion 2 at 23 mm is so nice on bad pavement and reasonable dirt (given the lower pressures you can run 'em at) that I haven't felt the need to try. The atom is likely a little bit lighter, a little more flat prone?

-Ray

[Ray]

Tubeless

Pros
Once setup, you shouldn't have to take the tires off until they wear out making them a great choice for commuting.

Eric, one follow-up question. Why would you not have to take them off until they wear out? I just had my first tubeless flat on a tire I've had on a rear wheel for just about a year. The tire doesn't SEEM to be shot yet, but the sealant was horribly useless after this much time. It was like a bunch of dried out cork inside the tire when I pulled it off the rim. I could see re-sealing this tire and riding it for several more months possibly. This was Hutchinson's own sealant, but IIRC, when I talked to the folks at Stan's, they recommended new sealant every six months or so using their stuff too. Is your assumption that you'd put enough miles on the tire to kill it before the sealant died? Or do you have a different strategy?

-Ray

[ergott]

Eric, one follow-up question. Why would you not have to take them off until they wear out? I just had my first tubeless flat on a tire I've had on a rear wheel for just about a year. The tire doesn't SEEM to be shot yet, but the sealant was horribly useless after this much time. It was like a bunch of dried out cork inside the tire when I pulled it off the rim. I could see re-sealing this tire and riding it for several more months possibly. This was Hutchinson's own sealant, but IIRC, when I talked to the folks at Stan's, they recommended new sealant every six months or so using their stuff too. Is your assumption that you'd put enough miles on the tire to kill it before the sealant died? Or do you have a different strategy?

-Ray


I didn't have any flat that the sealant didn't take care of. There are patches for the tires fix large punctures. Use that and you should be back on track.

I would consider taking the tires of once a year and inspect the sealant if that was the case. You could always remove any dried latex and squirt in fresh sealant.

[fourflys]

Re: Sealant...

When I was at Interbike, I talked for a bit with the Caffe Latex guys and their product seemed, on the surface, to be a bit better than Stan's and maybe the Hutchinson stuff... IIRC, the major difference is the Caffe Latex doesn't use amonia and something else, so it stays "wet" much longer....

http://www.cantitoeroad.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

thoughts?

[Ray]

Re: Sealant...

When I was at Interbike, I talked for a bit with the Caffe Latex guys and their product seemed, on the surface, to be a bit better than Stan's and maybe the Hutchinson stuff... IIRC, the major difference is the Caffe Latex doesn't use amonia and something else, so it stays "wet" much longer....

http://www.cantitoeroad.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

thoughts?
I never gave sealant a whole lot of thought, but looking at their website, it LOOKS a lot like how the Hutchinson sealant works. It injects into the tire as a huge mass of white foam, not as a liquid-ish substance like the Stan's. It uses some sort of propellant and seems to fill the tire, rather than just float around the central portion due to centrifugal force. I haven't actually crawled into the tire to find out, but from seeing how the stuff looks when removing the tire, that SEEMS to be the case. And this stuff SEEMS to work the same way. Maybe if one is more "liquidy" than the other, it could last longer, but I think ANY sort of substance with these kinds of properties is gonna degrade over time. I think if you're going to use sealant, you should probably figure on re-sealing at least every season.

But maybe we can get some opinions from a sealant expert?

-Ray